I'll just start a new topic then....<P>HAHAHAHAHA<P><B>gardengirl:<BR>If we do nag at them or act<BR> like a bi***,isnt that a great way to drive them to the OW?</B><P>talk about being between a rock and a hard place...so if we are emotionally honest, we stand to drive them back to OW, or at least away from us...but if we bite our tongues and stifle, we run more chance of emotional damage to ourselves, I think, in the long run...<P><B>peppermint:<BR>WHAT? YOU'RE NOT THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE?</B><P>nope... LOL....but I think I would like to be...at least in my marriage...for awhile...more on <B>that</B> later...<P><BR><B>nicole:<P>"He had the affair, he got all the wonderful feelings that went along with it(and lets face<BR> it no matter how wrong it was it did feel goo for them) he gets to find out how much I<BR> truly do love him, he gets the benefit of plan A (even if it was a little flawed), ..."<BR> and what exactly do I get??...I get to find out that the person I trusted blindly abused<BR> that trust, I get hurt beyond any hurt I had experienced before... and then I find out<BR> that yes he really does love me and it wasn't a flaw in me but something amiss deep<BR> inside him that caused it, I get to find out what I am truly made of and the strength that<BR> I carry within me. I find out that I can forgive and I can work on moving on.</B><P>first of all, the typo about feeling 'goo' made me fall off my chair, nicole!!...that went beyond ROTFLMAO......we talked a little bit about the above when we spoke, but I think that Plan A might not work for everybody (shielding myself from the Harley bolts of lightening)...somepersonality types may be better at it, and suited for it...my plan A was great, then really bad, then mediocre, then good.....all over the place...I couldn't be consistent..there was too much going on and again, I think my personality is flawed for Plan A on a tight, consistent, successful basis....yet ask Deut..and he will tell you that I did a great Plan A...he says.."maybe a little too well"....<P>it doesn't work for everybody....it can't...there are too many different types of people in the world..no <B>one</B> thing can be <B>the</B> thing...for those that it does indeed bring success to, I say bless you..thank goodness...I am so happy for them..(oh how I bow before Lori..goddess of all things plan A)...I envy those it works for...I am too reactionary and emotional a person I think...<P>I <B>LOVE</B> that you have found that strength in yourself, I am so proud of you..you held on...by the fingertips at times, but you held on...you have grown and changed in the year that I have known you...all for the better...I love the fact that you and Arik are so real and human...(and almost close enough to visit...lol)<P><BR><B>cindy:<P>Then I came to believe he genuinely feels love for me so I must have<BR> done a pretty good job.<P> But how do I feel about him? Not sure.</B><P>and herein lies my biggest problem...I feel numb still, in many ways...I don't know what or how I feel regarding Deut...well...I love him, I care about him....but 'in love'??...not without trust and faith in him....and how can I have that?...<P><BR><B>But at some level, will it ever be really sweet for me??? I set him up to succeed like<BR> telling him exactly what I wanted on my b-day and reminding him like I would my 5 year<BR> old son. I still only got a part of what I asked.</B><P>part of me screams that I know <B>exactly</B> what you mean, and then another part wants to scream that this is not fair...I want to be married to a <B>man</B>, who cares enough and to whom <B>I</B> matter enough that I won't have to give him a written note, or remind him 7 times in a day that it's our anniversary, only to have it ignored regardless....I don't want to be married to a 5-yr. old boy....I've dated enough of those in the past!!..and look, Cindy...we do it anyways, and still are disappointed...and there is a major crux to it all....I am tired of being disappointed...<P><B>Only recently he has said for the first time, he really wants to meet my needs. I should<BR> be jumping up and down, I guess. But I wonder if it is too little, too late? Will he become<BR> the man I need? I won't settle for the marriage we had. He neglected me for years, and I<BR> shut down and stopped doing a good job meeting his needs.</B><P>yes.yes...yes..yes....yes..yes....exactly.....Deut wants this marriage to work...wants us to survive this...and part of me is afraid that I no longer care enough...too little too late??...indeed...I shut down and I guess I just don't know how to kick-start myself....<P><B>leilana:<BR> I for one love your sense of humor, Dylan!<P> As well as the brutal honest feelings that are wrenching our guts out but we're not<BR> supposed to be expressing. <P>so I'm not exactly a poster child for a<BR> marriage in successful recovery yet either.</B><P>and I for one, love the state you live in, Leilana...LOL...<P>just a wierd question...at any point in this mess did you find yourself walking alone along the beach at night...looking at the moon, hoping to cleanse your pain?...it's just a 'visual' I get...I have often bemoaned the fact that I have no 'beach'...if I had a huge moon, the ocean, a warm breeze, and time alone walking on the sand, it could do wonders for me and my marital recovery <P>I notice and love how you acknowledge that we are not **supposed** to be expressing these brutal honest feelings...<P>according to who?...I mean, my god...it's true...we all share a little of this pain, we vent, b!tch, moan or complain and <B>we</B> feel GUILTY!!!!...or ashamed...or are made to..and get told to get our 'hineys into gear'...back to plan A...we can do it better this 54th time...rah! rah! rah!....I think that NOT expressing some of this is what may be holding some of us back...I still say that some personality types cannot do this...soem of us must have total emotional freedom and honesty or parts of us wither away and DIE!! what the hell am I supposed to do with these brutal honest feelings?...stuff them back down??...well, I did that once and my H had a frikken affair!!....am I supposed to shut up and play the good little wife??....when the hell do I get to scream and yell at the top of my lungs that I was <B>WRONGED</B>...and betrayed, and hurt..and DEVASTATED...that my life was forever altered....by anothers actions and lack of respect... <P><BR><B>cindy:<BR>Peppermint, I see so many stages for us. I don't know about you, but my h has never<BR> met my needs. I didn't marry him because of an overflowing love bank.</B><P>oh boy do I hear you....it's true..I have rarely ever had my needs met...but then, I don't think I have ever done a good job of letting the poor man know what those needs are...that must be it..because I have told him outright things to do or say...and he sigh....forgets...or I choose a bad time to talk, and only get partial attention paid...<P><B>For him, willingness to meet my needs is only one step. IT IS LEARNED BEHAVIOR, and I'm<BR> waiting to see whether he will learn it.</B><P>how do we teach it??...I ache to have my needs met....how do I convey those needs to him and have him pay attention, hear me, and act on it?...I can't afford jennifer or regular councelling...share as you go, cindy...LOL...pass on the good stuff!!...LOL<P><B>peppermint:<BR>I really thought<BR> it had ended and that I was being observant and alert. They just got sneakier when it<BR> flared up again two months ago, but still no in-depth sexual escapades to contend with.</B><P>I am <B>NOT</B> belittling the depth of your pain in any way shape or form when I say that I wish to god and goddess that Deut's affair had not included in-depth sexual escapades...I wonder what the difference in my ability to recover would have been had it not??....every time I walk into my home I <B>know</B> she was here...with him...I have thrown out pieces of furniture that they 'used'...and completely 'trashed' the kitchen that she had re-organized and 'cleaned up'...I guess, in a way, I can applaud firestorm his 'restraint'...well, you know what I mean...I have this large fear of this not coming out right...so I'll move on...<P><B>my case, I guess I really want<BR> firestorm to devote himself to me and my needs as a way of atoning for the affair. That's<BR> a nice little fantasy, but completely unrealistic for someone who tends to be, how can I<BR> say this nicely? Completely self-involved and extremely selfish.</B><P>wwwwwhooooooaa....ok....this is a biggie to me....lately, I have felt this as well....it's the "I want to be the center of the universe for awhile...you will spoil me, care for me, nurture me, you will make me feel like the most special and loved woman on the face of the earth...not by doing or saying things <B>you think</B> I need or want...but those things you <B>know</B> will make me happy...instead of a revenge affair, Peppermint, I think we want them to 'pay' as it were, with attention to us...I mean, come on, we were betrayed....payment must be made...'you will atone'...and 'I will be the center of that atonement'...I understand what you mean...I agree..it's a nice fantasy..one I have everyday... ...I do not want this man to be miserable, or to make his life a living hell as a way of atoning... I just want him to make me happy..as payment for the unhappiness he caused....focus on me for a change...look at me and really <B>see</B> me...hear me when I tell him what I need and want...I think perhaps we think we 'deserve' it...and we may be tired of feeling like we are the ones who have done 'most' of the work for the past year...<P><B>except disappointment, anger, and resentment<BR> that is.</B><P>I still feel that way......sigh...<BR> <P><B>marie:<BR>I posted once, long ago, how strongly I felt about the WS putting his whole being into<BR> recovery once he made the decision to work on the marriage...and was met with<BR> comments such as, "with that attitude missy, you're going to be walking into divorce<BR> court sooner than later"....and, "you can't tell your H what you want, you must PLAN A<BR> and make him feel safe"....</B><P>when do WE get to feel safe?????? when do WE get to feel secure???...I sure as hell still don't....it's great that he does...WHAT ABOUT ME!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! ....The people in 'real life' I have spoken to (that have gone through this) are giving me a timeline like 5-7 years!!! <P><B>...and I nearly died a second death. Me? Did you say me?...make him feel safe? What<BR> freaking turnip truck do you think I just fell off of????<BR>Not only did I build a wall, I constructed an entire fort made of cast iron steel. I was<BR> protecting myself....from HIM.</B><P>ROTFLMAO........THE TURNIP TRUCK........you fell off of it and I got hit by it....LOLOLOLOLOL.....<P>I still am protecting myself..I live with him, we laugh, we love, etc...but I have not let him 'in' behind the wall...you see, I told Deut what it did to me when my ex (all of them) had cheated...how devastating it was, de-moralizing, painful, debilitating, etc...he knew.....and still he did it...worse than any other....I cannot get past that...... <P><B>mthrrbard:<P>I have concluded that it takes a WS who is very motivated to do some really hard work<BR> within themselves first and then in the marriage to make this work after infidelity. </B><P>ok....so how do they get motivated??...hey, honey, get motivated or I'm leaving your sorry butt for the milkman!!...I bet that would work..... I do agree however, it takes two to rebuild, it takes two to survive and to rise from the ashes...but how many of us feel that while there has been 'some' effort on the part of our WS, we, the FS have done, to date, 'most' of the work, or put in the effort...<P><B>marie:<BR>I'VE MADE IT! I'M HEALED! I'M WHOLE AGAIN!<P> By george, I had my heart ripped to shreds, underwent total reconstruction, and CAME<BR> OUT ALIVE!.....and didn't even realize it.</B><P>GET OVER HERE AND TELL US HOW!!!!!!

What Dylan, no words of wisdom for me, I feel so unloved (sorry had to bug ya a little here)<P>------------------<BR>Deb<P>Hepatitis C, Please educate yourself ! <A HREF="http://www.hepatitis-central.com/<P>In" TARGET=_blank>http://www.hepatitis-central.com/<P>In</A> memory of a very dear friend <A HREF="http://fathom.org/teemingmillions/wally.adp" TARGET=_blank>http://fathom.org/teemingmillions/wally.adp</A>