Hi there,<P>Some problems us men are accused of in breakdown of marriage and the reasons for our having affairs is our lack of communication....<P>Most of us men would avoid conflict with our spouses and more so when it is in an area that we feel uncomfortable in...and have a lack of knowledge in... confidence in... such as the emotional side, our feelings, our vulnerability...We cant fix it with a hammer and screwdriver...we cant bash it into shape...its nebulous, hard to get hold of...it frightens us... We find it difficult to deal with emotions let alone identify what the feelings are and what they mean, where they came from etc...so would avoid any exposure to this frightening concept of revealing ourselves to anyone specially women.....this is changing but slowly... <P>None of us (male or female) are taught how to communicate, at school we were all taught a readin rightin an rithmetic..an nuthin on how to talk to females/males or communicate....best we guys got was how to chat up a chick so you could get laid!!!an you didnt get that taught in class...!!!<P>Only when great pain and hurt motivates us to look... we are forced to drop our pride long enough to allow ourselves understanding, insight and change, but we will resist and avoid it at all costs if we can....<P>Until that happens we will think feelings will always be something for women to deal with rather than us men....thats why we will say...if she goes and fixes it our marriage will be fine...!!!cos its womens business...!!! Men who have grown up with..."Fight for your country" "Uncle Sam" "Be Brave" "Do for Your Country" and "for God for king and for country".... "stiff upper lip"... "hold your chest out"... "tuck your tummy in"..."be a man"... imbuing tremendous pride within the male ego...to be seen as the protector...not only of the little woman at home and every other little woman at home….. but of his own country as well!!! wow!!!! What an awesome responsibility..!!!! What an honour!!!!...someone to rely on!!...someone brave courageous!!!!!.... me!!! The brave!!!!!! <BR>Match that against piffling things such as feelings...yuk!!!girlie stuff!!! thats for sissies!!! girls!!!weaklings!!!airheads!!!!not for real men...!!!!! <P>Not that any of these pride building affirmations are wrong in themselves...this is not a condemnation of such inspiration....just an understanding of some of the reasons why us men are conflict and communication avoiders in the heart to heart department...the emotional exposure dept...the revealing feelings dept....the communication at gut level dept....with women.... You see we would have to communicate with these women... females made from one of our own ribs...whom are an enigma to us...we associate them with things delicate.. things dainty.. things that break easily....they think illogically...they talk irrationally...their behaviour beyond our male comprehension.... Yet they affect us in ways beguiling....we love them so much we cant help ourselves...they make us feel all gaga and weak inside....we cant think straight when they are near....they make us brave tremendously strong "he men" feel weak vulnerable and trembly inside.....these emotions and feelings of great sexual passion fly around inside us in chaotic fashion and because we feel we have no control over them.... we fear these emotions and women greatly...!!!they can reduce us to fumbling insecure frightened angry lost little boys... but we cant reveal that to them !!!! no !! no !!!no !!!not at any cost!...God forbid!.. so we run from them...have affairs...we wont communicate with them...we will act indifferent to them..and pretend we are not affected by them....lie to them....and pretend and act as if we dont love them...!!! and do little things to annoy them, to undermine their confidence....cheat on them....make them feel insecure with us...keep them at bay.....hurt them...turn the other cheek... <P>All these games we play because we are afraid to be vulnerable...to be exposed...to admit we feel afraid...weak...unable to think straight when it involves women..after all this lady is the wife... this is the mother and the little girl....the nurturer and the nurtured...the protector and the protected....the lover and the loved....the carer and the cared for....she is all these things to me....<P>I am the husband...the man and the little boy.... the protector and protected....the loved and the lover...the cared for and the carer..... <P>And until we can see that we can have more strength....more power...more love by examining these feelings....exposing them to the light of understanding to facilitate change....we will be stuck in our fear....but things are changing and more an more of us males are coming out into the bright sunlight to be exposed...to drop our fear...to be vulnerable, to grow...and to be more.......thank God not before time...<P> Blessings cossie.... <BR><P>------------------<BR>To know who you are is to see who I am....

As always, your words are wise. <P>Over the last few months I've tried to be more verbally affectionate with my H; letting him know EXPLICITLY that I put him first. Yet every time I say something "mushy", he gets all giggly -- like a 10-year-old boy whose mom tries to kiss him and he says, "Eeeewwwww! Mom, that's icky!"<P>Last night I called him on it, and I asked him if it made him uncomfortable. He said "Maybe a little." I asked why, and he didn't have an answer.<P>So why can't men handle too much affection? It seems like a no-win for women. If you don't give them enough, they go elsewhere. If you give them a lot, they can't handle it.<P>So which is it to be?

Cossie,<BR>I am stunned by your revelations! You describe my H to the T. It gives me hope. I am trying to give him what he says he needs and what I think he needs - that is sexual fulfillment, admiration, emotional support. He says he wants to stay with his family but still loves the OW. He can't commit completely. What would you say are our chances? I don't think he is emotionally strong and is pulled one way or another, depending on who's got his attention at that moment. However, I don't think he's emotionally strong enough to leave either. I'm working plan A and riding the rollercoaster - hopeful one minute, despairing the next. PLEASE, Keep posting! You and HG Brawner are great inspirations.

Hi Dazed & Confused,<P>Good to see you are still trackin and communicating ... <P>I am not surprised H does not have an answer for you on why he feels uncomfortable....I dont think most guys would know...they feel awkward with any show of emotion believing its a sign of weakness but this is not a conscious belief...this is a buried belief borne of the times of upbringing and environment and general thinking of the time...this is more prevalent in the males who grew up in the 30s 40s and 50s and I think it will take some time for that to change as these guys die and their sons take over...gradually attitudes are changing...the younger the more rapid...kids today dont come in with the agendas of their parents....kids born today are masters and come in with an innate knowledge of who they are and what they have to do here....very different to any other time in history....<P>But back to H...dont be put off by his discomfort....keep applying the affection and allow his discomfit to teach him its ok to be loved its ok to feel giggly in public...its ok to feel embarrassed by a female who is obviously delightfully oblivious to what others may think about her show of affection....underneath a part of him loves it...you see underneath that discomfit that he feels is a craving for exactly what you are giving him....he craves touch that reminds him of Mom and those ickkkkkyyy feelings that Moms affection gave him when he was a youngster and when he was in danger of his peer group seeing this or finding out about it, so to tease him about not being 'cool'...a Mommys boy...weakling.. etc etc......but he is an adult now...!!its not that he cant handle it....it is what he wants....it is what he craves for underneath all the facade...and his fear of losing the very thing he wants causes him to pull away to protect himself from the pain of that loss even tho he hasnt allowed it yet to happen...sounds crazy I know...but true nevertheless...<P>So how ot overcome that..? keep doing what you are doing... to allow his inner fears to abate...to get used to being loved anywhere..to get used to being exposed....to get used to being touched...and when the fear sees that there are no peers laughing at him...no one calling him a sissy...nmo one persecuting him...it finally lets go.....<P>I know this sounds like you have to do everything and he just sits there taking it without having to do anything.....but underneath there is much going on...men are different to women in that department....for although they cannot identify their innermost motivations consciously....subconsciously they know exactly what is going on and respond to that in positive ways even though it seems to take forever at times...dont be discouraged...keep going....anything worth doing rewards the doer in many ways not percieved....example: it does lot for you to do this....it does a lot for your self image and esteem....practise to make it a way of life for everything you do...and it will all come back to you more than tenfold...from everywhere...and from places and people that may surprise you....<P>Good luck... <P>...................................<P>Nomoreu,<P>Thanks for your kind reply...I am going to write another extract on what to do when you are in the situation you are in ...the emotional roller coaster and not knowing what the H/W is doing or going to do so making your life a nightmare or at least feeling that way....<P>I think the only thing one can do in these situations is to concentrate on maintaining your own equilibrium...maintaining and building your own self esteem....because there is nothing you can do to control how your H behaves or thinks...and if you keep thinking about it and trying to please him so that he wont leave or so he wont get upset and leave and you dont want to feel guilty and blame yourself for his leaving etc, you become a slave to you own neediness....very difficult to find peace that way...<P>I will write more on that soon...sorry I dont have the time right now...<P>Highest Regards..<P>cossie<P>------------------<BR>To know who you are is to see who I am....

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cossie:<BR><B>Hi there,<P>Some problems us men are accused of in breakdown of marriage and the reasons for our having affairs is our lack of communication....<P>Most of us men would avoid conflict with our spouses and more so when it is in an area that we feel uncomfortable in...and have a lack of knowledge in... confidence in... such as the emotional side, our feelings, our vulnerability...We cant fix it with a hammer and screwdriver...we cant bash it into shape...its nebulous, hard to get hold of...it frightens us... We find it difficult to deal with emotions let alone identify what the feelings are and what they mean, where they came from etc...so would avoid any exposure to this frightening concept of revealing ourselves to anyone specially women.....this is changing but slowly... <P>None of us (male or female) are taught how to communicate, at school we were all taught a readin rightin an rithmetic..an nuthin on how to talk to females/males or communicate....best we guys got was how to chat up a chick so you could get laid!!!an you didnt get that taught in class...!!!<P>Only when great pain and hurt motivates us to look... we are forced to drop our pride long enough to allow ourselves understanding, insight and change, but we will resist and avoid it at all costs if we can....<P>Until that happens we will think feelings will always be something for women to deal with rather than us men....thats why we will say...if she goes and fixes it our marriage will be fine...!!!cos its womens business...!!! Men who have grown up with..."Fight for your country" "Uncle Sam" "Be Brave" "Do for Your Country" and "for God for king and for country".... "stiff upper lip"... "hold your chest out"... "tuck your tummy in"..."be a man"... imbuing tremendous pride within the male ego...to be seen as the protector...not only of the little woman at home and every other little woman at home….. but of his own country as well!!! wow!!!! What an awesome responsibility..!!!! What an honour!!!!...someone to rely on!!...someone brave courageous!!!!!.... me!!! The brave!!!!!! <BR>Match that against piffling things such as feelings...yuk!!!girlie stuff!!! thats for sissies!!! girls!!!weaklings!!!airheads!!!!not for real men...!!!!! <P>Not that any of these pride building affirmations are wrong in themselves...this is not a condemnation of such inspiration....just an understanding of some of the reasons why us men are conflict and communication avoiders in the heart to heart department...the emotional exposure dept...the revealing feelings dept....the communication at gut level dept....with women.... You see we would have to communicate with these women... females made from one of our own ribs...whom are an enigma to us...we associate them with things delicate.. things dainty.. things that break easily....they think illogically...they talk irrationally...their behaviour beyond our male comprehension.... Yet they affect us in ways beguiling....we love them so much we cant help ourselves...they make us feel all gaga and weak inside....we cant think straight when they are near....they make us brave tremendously strong "he men" feel weak vulnerable and trembly inside.....these emotions and feelings of great sexual passion fly around inside us in chaotic fashion and because we feel we have no control over them.... we fear these emotions and women greatly...!!!they can reduce us to fumbling insecure frightened angry lost little boys... but we cant reveal that to them !!!! no !! no !!!no !!!not at any cost!...God forbid!.. so we run from them...have affairs...we wont communicate with them...we will act indifferent to them..and pretend we are not affected by them....lie to them....and pretend and act as if we dont love them...!!! and do little things to annoy them, to undermine their confidence....cheat on them....make them feel insecure with us...keep them at bay.....hurt them...turn the other cheek... <P>All these games we play because we are afraid to be vulnerable...to be exposed...to admit we feel afraid...weak...unable to think straight when it involves women..after all this lady is the wife... this is the mother and the little girl....the nurturer and the nurtured...the protector and the protected....the lover and the loved....the carer and the cared for....she is all these things to me....<P>I am the husband...the man and the little boy.... the protector and protected....the loved and the lover...the cared for and the carer..... <P>And until we can see that we can have more strength....more power...more love by examining these feelings....exposing them to the light of understanding to facilitate change....we will be stuck in our fear....but things are changing and more an more of us males are coming out into the bright sunlight to be exposed...to drop our fear...to be vulnerable, to grow...and to be more.......thank God not before time...<P> Blessings cossie.... <P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>cossie,<P>You are right on. Describes my H to a T. One thing I have learned from the Emotional Needs inventory has really helped me.<P>My H always said "You do not LISTEN to me". Believe me, I did listen, because most of the time I could not talk. It would only expand his anger, and he would spend another twenty mintues explaining why he was right, and I was wrong.<P>During the discussion of EN he again listed "Doesn't listen to me". I was at my wits end.<P>Guess what? What he has MEANT for the last 12 years is this:<P>You do not acknowledge my thoughts FIRST, Before you respond. By responding without TELLING HIM I understand you think this, you feel this, he did not feel listened to.<P>Boiling water example: H says water does not boil faster with a lid on. I say, well my mother taught me to do this, so I am. He did not feel listened to. What I should say to him (because of weak ego) is: I understand you know that putting the lid on does not make any difference. I know you have good reason for thinking this. You may be right. However, since it does not matter one way or the other, I am putting the lid on because my mother taught me to, and it reminds me of her and happy times. Thanks for your input.<P>Whew! This is what I have learned I must do for my H. Cossie is right in his assement, and the level to which a wife has to take it depends on how far along a H is on self discovery and self confidence. I wish I had found all this out 10 years ago, minus 3 affairs. Hope this helps someone.<P>Victoria

Victoria,<BR>You are right. I'm not sure if it's true for every man, but my H has a very vulnerable ego as well. He needs constant reassurance that he is handsome, desirable, strong, smart, loved, admired, needed. I can do this for him because he is all these things. Like you, I wish I'd found this out five years ago and spared us both all this pain.

Victoria and Nomoreu,<P> yes us guys have this 'ego weakness' and we need validation at times....as all humans do at some time in their lives....and we validate each other in many different ways...some you have described very well already...<P>If only we could have the hindsight first huh...*g* wouldn't be wonderful..? but then we would not have anything to learn if that happened...<BR>It would be nice if our education systems could teach our kids about this kind of communication and understanding from the hindsight we have all learned from......<P>This 'ego weakness' in us males cries out for recognition, validation, understanding, and its because we do not have those things for ourselves, and we use our spouses to try give us what we dont have...and once they do that, it helps teach us to validate ourselves, understand ourselves, recognise ourselves and so we grow and learn....there is much we owe you angels of love and beauty...and once we possess that which we seek (recognition etc) you will no longer need to validate us, we will feel ok with it or without it.....<P>It is only because our self esteem is low that it is there in the first place...<P>Thank you for responding...<P>cossie..<P>

Cossie,<BR>As always, thank you for your insight. Your words are so encouraging and validating. I'm more hopeful this week than at any other point since discovery in December. YOu and others like you on this forum have been invaluable. Thanks again.

OHMIGOD! I thought I was the only one with the super-sensitive, narcissistic, ego-filled H! These comments from you other Ws are very helpful!<P>Now if he would just listen to me!<BR>

<small>[ January 31, 2005, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

Very interesting thread. Have printed out your thoughts for my H.<P>The book"You Just Don't Understand" is by Deborah Tannen. I havent' read that one but have read her other book "That's Not What I Meant." It is also very good but is about conversational styles and not what is said but how it is said.

Cossie<P>"I think the only thing one can do in these situations is to<BR> concentrate on maintaining your own equilibrium...maintaining and<BR> building your own self esteem....because there is nothing you can do<BR> to control how your H behaves or thinks...and if you keep thinking<BR> about it and trying to please him so that he wont leave or so he<BR> wont get upset and leave and you dont want to feel guilty and blame<BR> yourself for his leaving etc, you become a slave to you own<BR> neediness....very difficult to find peace that way..."<P>You are soooooo right!! When you become a slave to your worries and thoughts about what he's doing or what he's thinking, you can't take are of yourself. This is such a hard lesson for me to learn, but somehow hearing you say it makes it so much more real!! I am going to make this my immediate goal!!!!<P>Thank you!<BR>

Cossie,<P> PLease write more what you were going to about the emotional rolercoaster. I think I need to hear it! I feel very much like that only haven't had an up for awhile now.<BR>Lora

Lora,<P>Thank you for asking...I will do that as soon as I can get the time to write....I am leaving early in the morning on a trip overseas into a no computer area....will be away for 2 weeks so hopefully you can wait that long....<P>nomoreu, Mzpen, hanora, T_D ,<P>Thanks keep up the good work.. <P>Windy,<P>Hang in there, its not easy but the end result is really worth the effort...its so hard to work on oneself to not be so needy of others....but the funny thing is, that the more you become independent of them the more they seem to want to be near you, to be in your company...to be bathed in your independence too... it gives them strength and trust...<P>Catch up with you all soon...take real good care yourselves...be giving and loving to you and the world will reciprocate...<P>love <P>cossie...<P>------------------<BR>To know who you are is to see who I am....