I'm the lover in an affair with a long time friend. He just got engaged to his girl of 4yrs. Over the years when they were dating, we've been together a few times. But, he has been with other women as well. I've been trying to convince him that getting married is the wrong thing to do considering his history of infidelity. He is convinced that because she never questions him and trust him, she cares. I say she's desperate and in denial. How can I convince him to A)not to marry out of fear that he won't find another like her and B)out of gratitude; like that he's thankful she put up with all his crap over the years, unlike the average female who felt disrespected by his blatant insult on their intelligence by telling them he is not cheating? Fear and gratitude are not reasons to get married.<P>I have known him since I was 4yrs old and we were raised to believe we were cousins. My "Aunt" was actually hoping I was interested in his older brother. (Even told my dad to push me for it). So the likelihood that we will never see again is slim. And I don't feel like I'm in love with him, I just like being around him and spending time with him. The sex is incredible and he knows every single thing about me (really-even the things I used to be really ashamed of). I've told him that he is underestimating women's intuition and that she knows about his infidelities and I said only a desperate woman or one in serious denial would accept that into a marriage or think that it's going to change once the vows have been said. He says it's trust. Where? Where is the line drawn between trusting and just plain stupid? Even a one-eyed fly could see he cheats. He loves sex and different experiences (he likes swinger parties too- I haven't been but look forward to attending one with him). He's 29 and I'm 25. Again, I'm not saying I want him, but clearly with the way he is going, proposing to her in Jan. was clearly a mistake. The marriage would only end up hurting her, if he doesn't do something proactive about the problem he has with infidelity. <P>And lastly, today she pops up in town unannounced to "surprise" him. Surprise indeed! He said we couldn't hang out because he had a "feeling" she was going to pop up. He says she does that all the time. Says it's just the way she is. And I asked you think that is trust??? That's crazy!! <P>I've seen this happen to another friend and they are in a completely unhappy marriage because the ignored the obvious signs. Both are too scared to get divorced because they signed no pre-nup and don't want the other to get half. (Both make over 100k, her more than him in case #2).<P>It'd really be sad to see him end up the same way. Our fathers were best friends and both were big time philanderers (did I spell that right?). His dad just introduced them to three grown (19, 28 and 30) children he fathered outside the marriage of his mom this past Thanksgiving. My dad was married 3 times, all relationships overlapping and has 2 kids outside wedlock from two different women from two of the marriages. I know, I know, this I'm sure has something psychological to do with the way we behave now. But I feel that since he's not married and I'm not, the playing is okay. I'm single, and when I choose to committ, I most certainly will.<P>------------------<BR>I love those who are first honest to themselves, and then honest to me.<p>[This message has been edited by Love&Virtue (edited April 05, 2000).]

You "signature" talks about honesty....well, here's a dose.....<P>Why in the world would you come to a place where there are people hurting from infidelity and post such a message? Most of the people who read here are desperately wounded by a spouse's infidelity and those who post here who've been unfaithful are desperate to repair what they've destroyed. Your post is inappropriate and in the wrong place.<P>I strongly suggest counseling for <B>you</B>....don't worry about your sex partner....he's headed for his own wakeup call. Your life is a mess and you are headed for some serious trouble if you don't get it turned around. <P>------------------<BR>"They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." Isaiah 40:31<P>

My life's a mess! 20yrs of marriage and you didn't see it coming. You must be one of the many females in denial about the union with their partners.....I could continue a long these lines, but I won't. I greatly appreciate your response and do not want to get in the field of insulting anyone. I was whole heartedly looking for advice when posting my message, not judgement. But then again religious touting individuals such as yourself never have gotten the "not judging" part down. Anyway, believe me, I know the pain behind infidelity because I was hurt by it as a child as were/are many of my brothers and sisters. Simply put, if you have not (man or woman) made the decision in your heart and spirit to truly committ to one individual, DON'T GET MARRIED! And if you think that marrying someone who already exhibited any signs of a potential philanderer, (including not being truly happy with who themselves) then think again. I see many 21yr olds to 26yrs fresh out of college, not even one year into their first job making the biggest committment of there lives. It's just ridiculous. If I could run a poll (be a fly on the wall) in every married household in the world, or America, 70% of the people who are married shouldn't be because they probably weren't ready in the first place. And just because your marriage has lasted longer than a decade or two doesn't mean that it was a communion from God. If people listened to the "God like" part of their spirit (usually intuition, gut feeling, etc) and asked God, instead of others and were TRULY, TRULY honest with themselves, they would take that fiance' to be a good friend and not a spouse. None of what I have said above, is really directed towards you. It's only based on what I have learned thus far in my short life. I'm still young and I still have a long ways to go, but I'm willing to go that long way and forfeit taking on a life partner until I am truly ready. Not because the person makes me happy, not because my pastor, family and friends like him, and not because I'm pregnant and God forbid because he's been with me so long as a girlfriend, he feels it's the right thing to do. My father died when I was 24 and my mom when I was 15. I look forward to experiencing and listening to other people who were in their predicament to understand parts of people, them and maybe parts of myself so I can LEARN from past mistakes. <P>I know what I'm doing is wrong, and the "God-like" part of me saying that some times gets pushed back by the "Ego" part of me that just wants to have fun and experience life (not just through sex, I love swimming long distances also and hiking and a whole score of other things). They are all experiences. <P>My friend will make his own bed if he doesn't listen to what he knows is right. Be that discontinuing with me and others or not getting married, he'll hopefully straighten up. Me, I'm just an extraordinary 20'something trying to do what's right. Really, I do try.

Thanks Brawny!

Really you try to do what is right? I am sure glad and thank God that everyone in this world does not try to do what is right the way you do or we would all be destined to be consumed in fires of our own lusts forever. I would think that if you were really trying to do what was right you would have cut things off with this guy no matter your history the moment he thought he was serious about this woman. If all women and men for that matter would really do what was right all the women and men who have been hurt by infidelity in ALL of it's forms would have been saved a lot of pain an agony for themselves their spouses, and their families, extended and otherwise. We are NOT tounting judgementalists Christains. Just speaking the truth, and the truth someimes hits where we don't want it to. We all have a hard time seeing our own stuff. Which is why a lotof us are here to see our, and our spouses stuff to salvage our lives if we can. Divorce, moving on, and doing the same thing with the same kind of person in a different body is NOT the answer. To be happy YOU MUST WORK ON YOURSELF! "KEEP DOING WHAT YOU ARE DOING KEEP GETTING WHAT YOU ARE GETTING"

An angry face huh? "Consumed in fire"? "NOT tounting judgementalists Christains"? Well you really told me off. I thank you though. I guess I am here to "see my own stuff" to let in get to me enough that I will stop. I am reaching out, and I am getting responses. That's a start. <P>And in doing what is right, you assume that to be 'not cheating' in marriage/committments. NO! What I'm saying is don't get married at all if your not 100% sure. It's in "trying to do what is right", that SOME people get married in the first place. Without the true knowledge of what they are getting into, without truly being honest with themselves. For example, because they'd been dating for so long; because of a pregancy (which I'm sure many Christians/Religious advocates would push for; for the woman to marry the man who got her pregnant (excluding extreme circumstances of rape and abuse)), because they felt pressured by parents, because they didn't think that they could find anyone else, because they were lonely, money, security (the list goes on). ALL THE WRONG REASONS of people trying to ALSO do what is right. And a lot of the people in the Forum seem a lot older than me and in the "ole days" there was nothing wrong with many of those things (and sometimes even now).<P>Yes the truth may hurt, but it can also be refreshing. I am making steps (that you don't know or see) to "work on myself". You don't know me and you HAVE used what I have written here to judge me in totality as a whole person. There is so much more to me. And to you as well.<P>A forum was meant to generate discussion on topics and like you said some of it may not always be what you want to here. Though my "affair" is not a married one. And I don't really consider my self the OW because I'm not in the "leave me for her" frame of mind. I really don't want that. I guess being honest, I want him to let go and I'll let go too. I don't want him to leave her. And I want him to be a more positive part of my life. Like when we were younger and all the sex stuff didn't complicate the relationship. I just don't want to see any of us get hurt. And I guess I'm trying to psych myself into doing the right thing before I get in too deep and get hurt myself.<P>And are ALL the women on this forum the victims and not the cheaters? And if so, are you still married and do you still respect your husbands? <P>I love the dialogue. I feel like I'm really learning, especially when people like Cossie dish out there takes on the matter. Again, thanks for your response. <p>[This message has been edited by Love&Virtue (edited April 02, 2000).]

Couple of things here - First, I wouldn't consider myself a Christian in the strict sense of the word (sorry folks). I don't belong to any church and have questions many church doctrines but I do have morals and I think if your friend has asked this girl to marry him that you should step out of the picture. Don't wait for him to tell you to go. Why should you wait when he has clearly made a choice? Why would you want to continue a relationship that is full of decent and sneaking around? Find a relationship that is fulfilling to both of you. Second, the people here on this forum are loving, caring people. Your responses to them have been rude and cutting - not a good way to start a meaningful dialogue. Third, cossie is a wise man and a great person to talk to. He was the betrayer and can tell you many things from that side of the coin. However, he'll tell you what everyone else is telling you here on this Forum - let go of this guy and work on yourself. Find a healthy relationship.<BR>Let go of your anger and defensiveness here and open yourself up to some advice. Isn't that why you came here?

L&V:<BR> There are a lot of hurting and healing people here, and your post was bound to stir up some feelings.<P> I do agree with you on this:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Simply put, if you have not (man or woman) made the decision in your heart and spirit to truly committ to one individual, DON'T GET MARRIED! And if you think that marrying someone who already exhibited any signs of a potential philanderer, (including not being truly happy with who themselves) then think again.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>As to your request for advice:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How can I convince him to A)not to marry out of fear that he won't find another like her and B)out of gratitude; like that he's thankful she put up with all his crap over the years, unlike the average female who felt disrespected by his blatant insult on their intelligence by telling them he is not cheating? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Unfortunately, I don't think you can convince him. It is hard to change someone's mind. I'm assuming you've told him your views on not cheating on a commitment. You might suggest he lurk on the Infidelity board awhile and see what damage occurs and think about whether he wants to put someone thru all that. But, the decision is in his hands...<BR>Kathi

What an ego!! Extraordinary 20-something trying to do the right thing. Yeah, right.

I agree Nom. I have decided to step away from the picture, even if it means never being his friend. I've actually cut and pasted a lot of the info I've read here (Especially Cossie's stuff) and e-mailed it to him. He has't responded, and I even think he blocked my e-mail address (Ouch!). I guess seeing how you are written down and in your face is a little too much for him to handle.<P>And as for being rude, when people tell me I am going to (or they hope I will), burn in hell or get consumed by fire. I generally tend to take offense to that. I am also a loving and caring person and I am learning things in the forum, it's just hard for others to realise that because they only see me as the OW. That is only a small percentage of my life. It's a part of it that bothers me, so I'm looking for ways to nip it in the bud and not making this mistake again, ever.<P>Thanks so much for your response. L&V

Kam,<P>I already forwarded things from the forum to him, and he does have the web address in the forward. (Read my reply to Nom). I'm not really on the whole "I want to convince him to stop" mission anymore. I want to stop me. And I have feelings, and I hurt too. It's why I'm here. Imagine you 24yrs old, no parents (tragically dead, cancer and heart disease), no wills, last semester of College it happens and you enter the world with students loans, the shirt on your back and will and determination. Someone you thought of as a dear friend that you could talk to about anything, would take advantage of your vunerabilities (he was with me most when my dad; his "uncle" died) and then still want to be in this relationship with you and marry someone else too. You think that doesn't hurt. Well, it does.<P>Thanks for your response

Love&Virtue<BR>You most certainly are a loving, caring being! I didn't mean to insinuate anything else! We have all gone through a lot of hurt here, and I for one am more than willing to give you support in making the right decision. I think he has been unfair to you, but that should tell you something - like you said, he's not the one for you, so find the one who is! There is someone out there who will be able to meet all your needs and make you happy. If this guy gets married and it doesn't work out, it's his mistake, his decision. You can't make them for him, so don't try! You deserve a better relationship and I am sure you can find one. One more thing - you WILL NOT BURN IN HELL! Your soul is as wonderful, caring and full of love as any one here. Let it shine through!

There is another option here. Tell her instead of him. Or deliver the ultimatum to him to either tell her himself what has been going on or you will. If you are worried about her being married to a cheat then she needs to know. If you are worried about loosing a lover then all I can say is let the cheating [censored] go and find somone who will love you. I can say with all certianty that if he is cheating to be with you he will cheat when he is promised to you.<P>I didn't say it was an easy option, just that it was one.<P>As for your life, your free, single and 21; do what you want to do. Just a warning though, having sex with married men has been known to cause lead poisoning. About 140 grains worth of lead at high velocity.<P>L&V, I wish you all the luck and love in the world. No one here has an easy life. There is enough anger, hatred and rage on this board to rip the world apart. I am truely sorry we let some of it slip onto you. We sometimes forget that in any affair there are three people involved and that the heatache is just as real for the other person as it is for us.

I don't think you should tell her. She is not the one you're involved with. She may not want to know. Or, he may already have told her and made you out to be a demon. Walk away from the situation. Both he and she will have to work it out between them. Find your own paradise - you deserve it.

Thanks Joe and Nom for your advice. I couldn't dream of telling her because that is his responsibility, and I don't want to cause any pain for her directly from me or indirectly so I've left the picture. I blocked his number and his e-mail. So, like me, when she leaves town, I'm sure he'll get the message too and leave me alone. I cannot play second fiddle, second best, mediocre, second place, etc, etc.<BR>

L&V,<P>I read your post earlier and did not respond and I am glad that I didn't. What I may have said then would have been an angry reaction. Your first post was very hard to take. You insinuated that this girl almost deserved to have he fiance cheat on her because she either already knew or was too naive to really see him for what he was(nobody deserves that). You seemed to have no compassion for her at all and even questioned whether what you were doing was an affair(the word affair is in quotations in your topic name.) Your comment about her showing up unexpectedly also got me on edge. Many people love to surprise the people they love and if they are in a commited(at least she thinks it is) relationship would think their partner would have no problem with this and in fact would expect that they would be happy to spend extra time with them. <BR>From your initial post and the first few replies you made, it would be easy to assume that you see nothing wrong with being the OW in a relationship as long as you, yourself are not married. I am not saying that you said this but your attitude and words <B>suggest</B> it. Your later replies paint a bit of a different picture.<P>Now on to the rest of what I have to say...<P>It appears that from what you said later on that this man took advantage of you at a very vunerable time in your life. I think, from what you have said, that he meant a lot more to you than you are admitting, and that is why you are so hurt. He played on your emotions and made you feel loved and secure when you felt lost and alone. I applaude you for taking the intiative in ending things with him. He doesn't seem to be worth the trouble. Let's face it he has cheated on his fiance and in essence has cheated on you by being with several other women as well.<BR> <BR>You are definitely right in that you should never play second fiddle to anyone in a commited relationship. Give yourself time to heal from what this man has done to you, because there is no doubt that you have been hurt by him, and then you will be ready to find somebody to have a commited relationship with.<P>Take care and God Bless<P>------------------<BR>Love and Prayers<BR>Nicole <P><p>[This message has been edited by Patient Love (edited April 05, 2000).]

Holy Cow, L&V. Reading your posts is like replaying "heart to heart talks" I had with the OW in my relationship before I realized (or admitted to myself) that there was an affair going on. Wow. I have to admit it's hard for me not to transfer the anger I feel towards her onto you, but I'm going to give it a go. Please cut me some slack if I don't completely succeed.<P>You are in a difficult spot. This guy you thought was a really good friend and fantastic lover turns out to be the type who would marry someone else but keep cheating on her--with you. Yuck. <P>You say you wish you could go back to a time when the sex stuff didn't complicate things. Unfortunately, you can't, any more than you can go back to a time before your parents passed away. Time only goes forward, and you have to look yourself in the eye every morning forever.<P>Even if you could just be friends with this guy, you would still be having an affair with him. A huge part of marriage is friendship. Mature love is not the same as romantic love (keep reading the materials on this site for more information).<P>You will never be able to change him. You can only change yourself. <P>My advice is to get yourself as far removed from this situation as you can, which you've already started to do by blocking his e-mail. Continue to do all things you say you have been doing to get right with yourself. Yes, it sounds like this guy is making a mistake, but you can't change him. Think about how hard it is for you to hear us say that you should leave him--now try to imagine how hard it is for him to hear you say he should leave her, for any reason.<P>I'm sorry to hear about your folks. I know it's hard to start life without them (my dad died when I was in HS). I'm glad that this guy was your friend through those rough first months, and I really am sorry that he's turned out to be a jerk. Try to rise above the situation and do what you know is right.<P>Good luck to you in inventing yourself. --HBC<P>P.S.--Unrelated suggestion: saying that you view yourself as extraordinary is often a turn-off to people. Think about it: what would you think of me if I told you I was truly remarkable in every way? Humility tends to win more friends than bravado. Just my $.02.--HBC<p>[This message has been edited by HurtButCoping (edited April 05, 2000).]

I'm balling now. Don't know if it's all hurt or hurt and hormones. Life sometimes sucks.

Sorry to hear that you are balling. Wish I could wave my hands and say a few magic words and make it all go away. But if I could, I would have a job 24/7 and no time for me.<P>Yes, sometimes life sucks. But cheer up, sometimes it swallows. Life is also to short to wallow in self-pity. Have a good cry, but then suround yourself with your friends. Enjoy their humor and compasion and then get on with living the life you had.<p>[This message has been edited by Joe in TX (edited April 05, 2000).]

L&V:<P>I'm sorry you're hurting. It will get better, a little bit each day. <P>I hope one day you get to find out what it's like to love and be loved by a truly great guy.<P>Best wishes to you. --HBC