I don't even want to talk about this, I just want to sit and do nothing.<P>For those of you who've read my entire life history over at Emotional Needs, here's the latest:<P>H walks into my office yesterday and tells me the whole truth, that he's been having an affair. Sleeping with his best friend's wife, and still coming home and sleeping with me. I didn't LB, I was calm, didn't even cry. She broke things off with him at the urging of her H yesterday morning. Then he came to tell me everything. He is devestated, "crushed" was his word. He didn't want it to end. At least he was honest with me. I truly just hugged him (he didn't hug back) and told him I'm glad he told me and that I wanted to be there for him and be his friend.<P>We talked for hours, I feel we accomplished more in one day than we have in years. I told him I view this as a positive experience that has taught us both things about ourselves. That we have two paths, one is we remain best friends and go on with our lives and eventually apply what we've learned to other people, or maybe, if we just focus on being friends, we'll find something in each other we didn't see before, build something new and better. <P>He intends to move about an hour away to his cousins house at the end of next week. He says its just for the summer and until he can save up enough money to come back and get his own place.<P>So here I've been, strong for him and supportive and his friend. Now, today it's all coming crashing down. I haven't even yet shed a tear, but I'm terrified I'm going to lose it soon. I just feel it coming. I don't know where I should go or if I need to be alone or with someone who can help me. <P>I need some advice from those of you who've been through this. Please PLEASE, tell me what I do now!!!????<P>Cali

When the separation of a spouse is emminant... it is devastaing...<P>9 months ago... I was a basket case...<BR>...but had to be strong... since the kids were starting school in 3 days.<P>This is no the time to be alone...<BR>...get in touch with a friend who can help you through this...<BR>...and of course post here.<P>---------------------------------------------<P>Your love is not exhausted yet...<BR>Keep on Plan A-ing.<BR>Great job with the no LBs...<BR>...but don't refer to H as your "friend"...<P>Let him always know he is your "husband"...<P>"..we'll find something in each other we didn't see before, build something new and better..."...<BR>should be "we'll <B>make</B> ourselves..., and build ourselves..."<BR>("finding" is a bit wishfull..<BR>there is greater strength in making/building!)<P>---------------------------------------------<P>I know you're upset...<BR>...I was too!<P>I'm praying for you today... <P>Jim<P>

Cali,<P>There is nothing wrong with tears. This is very traumatic. But also this is just the first day of their break up. Your H will go through withdrawl. <P>It is hard to say if living away for awhile will be good or bad. It will hopefully separate him from the OW, however, it does make it harder for the two of you too start to heal and build a better marriage.<P>You are now going to hear those two dreaded words: <B>time and patience</B>. Cali, this is only the beginning. It hopefully is the beginning of the end of his affair. It hopefully is the beginning of a new marriage for you two.<P>But it will take time. He has emotionally separated from you. He had to to have the affair. He will feel tremendous guilt for what he has done to you and his best friend. It will take time for the emotional connection to be restored but you can help that. <P>You know more about yourself now. You know more about your role in the marriage. You have the tools you have been learning here. You have pros like NSR and others to help guide you through this. You even know where to find a good counselor . <P>So while this is a very traumatic time, realize all that you have. You did a very good job in handling your H when he told you. It will take time, but what you did will sink in with him. Have Patience.<P>Meanwhile take care of yourself.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Jim - <P>I still do love him, but I feel different. He asked me "how" when I said this to him. I told him I don't feel like I'm his wife anymore, but I do feel like I can be his friend.<P>He still doesn't want our marriage. I feel now that his refusal to work on it was a result of his involvement with OW. Now that she is out of the picture, he is still going, which I agree with. He needs to clear his head and sort out his life. He's lost every friend he has except one. No one will speak to him for what he did to his BF. I'm the only thing he's got. I don't think he wants me to be anything other than a friend because he is still greiving for her. He told me it would take a long time to get over her. He told me how hurt and depressed he was over the breakup. It killed me, but I sat and listened. <P>Now what? Just keep being there and being supportive? I even told him I would rather have seen him go and be happy than to see him hurt this way. I told him I understood how things happened, that she was meeting a need so neglected by me, that even small things felt good. He told me at first that he didn't want me to understand it. I think he was angry that I wasn't crying and yelling and LBing like I would have two months ago. He almost NEEDED the punishment. But I would not give it. I only kept telling him I was sorry for how he was feeling, that yes, it hurt me too, but that I want to be there for him.<P>He called and told BF the truth, (OW called him and supposedly fessed up) But he told BF that he wasn't going to tell him everything because that should come from his W. Then H called OW and told her if she didn't tell BF everything that he was going to. He told her that he told me everything and now there were no secrets between us and that he felt so much better for it. He also said to her, "You know what the funny thing is? She doesn't hate you for what you did to her, she hates you for what you did to me."<P>What's that supposed to mean. Why did he tell her that. He did say he was amazed at how calm and supportive I've been through all of this and that he can see that I've made some changes deep within myself and that he hoped they were for good.<P>When I mentioned the two paths I see. One together or one not, he didn't reject the ideas.<P>Also, after he told me everything, I pulled out all the letters and poems and just ramblings I've been writing down for the last three weeks. I told him it was important to me that he know how I feel and what I've learned from all of this. (things written before I knew about A) He said, "I don't want to read them. I want you to read them to me." He needs a little breather time first but said we should set aside a time to read them together.<P>What do I make of that? If he has no intention of building our marriage - then why? And why the part about ME reading them to him?<P>I am so confused and honestly don't know what I feel for him. I love him still for sure. Something like a black cloth just slipped over my heart and I can't feel what's in it. I can't see what's in it.<P>More words of wisdom - PLEASE.

JL - <P>Thank you thank you thank you.<P>I have little concern over the lack of contact with my H. Just so happens we all spend a lot of time up there with Mom in law and cousin. I will be around frequently - with my son as well. I have a feeling he'll maybe even start calling me to talk. I hope so.<P>Couple questions: Since he is not the one who ended the A, how will I ever know (if things do work out) that he isn't always missing her or wondering if it would've worked? How do I know he's not coming back because I'm "old stand by?" <P>What about sex? How can I ever get past this? He brought her into our HOUSE, the one we just bought a month ago. The house where he and I made love the first time after we were married. The house we had so many memories in. TWICE!!! On my $300 living room rug!!!!!!! <P>I'm trying so hard not to be angry. I'm trying desperately to keep myself in his shoes. This must be hundreds of times worse for him: Even if it wasn't love, if he thinks it was I have to treat it that way. So he's got a broken heart, lost all his friends AND doesn't have his family. Add to that the guilt he's carrying around and we've got a potential suicide on our hands. I don't think he's really thinking about it but mentioned if he didn't get some outlet (music) for his emotions he'd end up suicidal.<P>He didn't say he was sorry for the A. He said he's sorry he had to tell me something like that. He said he regretted it in some ways but not in others. He said he thought he was doing what was right for him because it made him so happy.<P>OH YEAH, remember the poem I told you about, where the first letter of every sentence spelled out I LOVE HER BUT I'M AFRAID. Well, he told me it was about her.<P>PAIN PAIN PAIN..... But I've not let him see my pain. I've not even really let it out for me to see. I don't know if it's right to let him see my total collapse that is surely eminent. <P>Should he be there with me? Should I hide it and continue in my supporting Friend mode????????<P>JL, NSR, I need your SOUND advice, please.

Cali,<P>{{{{{Cali}}}}},<P>Your H is going through withdrawal...<P>...it's like being a mouse trapped in a maze with no exit and no prize(food) in the end.<BR>...he's lost...<P>He is confused (and yes... you must be too)<P>This will take time and patience as <B>Just Learning</B> pointed out.<P>Again...<BR>...I'd stay away from the "friend" concept...<P>...let him know you are his supportive 'wife"<BR>...and <B>by your actions!!!!</B> in meeting his <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A>...<BR>...you'll be more than <B>any</B> friend!<P>A friend can meet many <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A>... but some are reserved for a spouse!!!<P>You haven't let yourself grieve on this yet...<BR>...when you do... seek out some help!<BR>...and of course... feel free to come here!<P> <P>Jim

Jim - <P>But he doesn't want a "wife". And I don't feel like one. He killed (or I euthanized) the wife in me. I have to disconnect from the wife in order to be a good listener and be his friend without getting my feelings hurt over his pain for another woman.<P>Why do you say stay away from the friend thing? Isn't that where every marriage starts? Isn't that a step toware a new beginning?<P>Please explain.

Cali,<P>I am in the middle of something at work, but I felt I needed to respond. First, a tacky thought . Lose the $300 carpet. Let's see twice makes it about $150 a shot. I'd say a medium priced Wh---. What do you think?<P>Sorry, just a little vent on my part.<P>Now, remember about honesty. It won't do any good for you or H for you to bury your feelings. You are hurt and you will need to heal from this pain. Hiding it won't help. You asked should I show him my pain? <P>I really don't know if I am qualified to answer this, but I would say yes, if your remember now LB's. He will feel guilt if he sees you crying, but if it is not all of the time, I say it probably won't hurt and it will be good for you.<P>Cali, anytime there is a traumatic event or loss, there are such strong emotions, fears, and pain. You cannot hide from them, the idea is not allow them to control you. It seems that you have gained much strength. <P>You know what to do and how to do it with regards to dealing with H, but you are human also. So take care of yourself here.<P>As for him apologizing, Harley says in many cases the betrayer never really apologizes. I guess, it is if I didn't want to have done it it I wouldn't have done it, type of thing. So honestly he may not regret the act, but regrets the consequences to you, family, and to himself. It may not be so comfortable but it is honest.<P>However, I think you will here an apology. Just remember you don't get to write he does, so it may not sound just like you want it. <P>Your question about ever knowing if you were second choice. Well that has been discussed here many times. I don't know if there is a satisfactory answer, but I will give you my thoughts.<P>Lets start with the facts. You were is his first choice and he married you. She was his second choice and it appears they may be splitting (it will go back and forth before it ends completely), if he comes back you will be his choice. So if you are keeping score your are for sure #1 and hopefully #3. Much better than #2, in my book.<P>Now from a non numerical standpoint, he has prepared to leave you. The affair may have been more of an exit affair than he wants to admit right now. The cost of this to him has been hugh and will grow. If you two get back together you can bet it will be because he wants to. In someways it will be easier for him to run from all of this than face the music. <P>I suspect his feelings for her will change, but Harley points out that they never completely leave a person, just as a first love or memorable person in your life never really leaves. They just don't have much influence.<P>So it seems to me if you do your thing as you know how to do now and he comes back you will know he wants to and that you have made changes that will guarentee a strong marriage. <P>Cali, you posted something I thought was significant <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He also said to her, "You know what the funny thing is? She doesn't hate you for what you did to her, she hates you for what you did to me." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He is already seeing you in a new light. That I think is a testament to how you have handle this thing so far. You are doing so well Cali. You really have learned a lot in a short time.<P>You asked about sex. The consensus around here seems to be whatever works for you, is what you should do. <P>Just remember this, you will make someone an awesome spouse no matter how this turns out. But I think you will prevail here. It will be rough but you can do it.<P>Must go but everyone here will help. I will be gone next week so take care of yourself.<P>God Bless You and Your Family, Cali.<P>JL<P>

Cali,<P>Being a "wife" (or "husband" for that matter) is much more than being a "friend".<P>That's what makes <B>marriage</B>... different from "friendship".<P>If "...(H) doesn't want a "wife"."...<BR>understand that is a temporary phase...<BR>...part of his withdrawal.<P>If "(you) don't feel like one. He killed (or I euthanized) the wife in me."...<BR>...that can be temporary too!<BR>...it's up to you... to bring that "spousal" feeling back...<BR>...especially since your maze-mouse-husband is still mixed up!<P>"(your) feelings hurt over his pain for another woman."...<BR>...this is more than natural...<BR>...that's why there are people here to help you through thes tough times... Honestly <P>I don't really mean "...stay away from the friend thing"...<BR>I mean... be more than a friend... be a spouse.<P>Any and every relationship starts with a "friendship"... <BR>... but... marriages (even broken ones) need to grow beyond that...<BR>...and your starting point need be 100 steps back...<BR>...but in moving forward in the changes in you...<BR>...learning and building "marriage building" skills... <BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>Four rules to guide marital recovery</A> (page 87 of SAA)<BR><OL TYPE=1> <BR><LI> <B><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3902_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Rule of Protection:</A></B> Avoid being the cause of your spouse's unhappiness.<BR><LI> <B><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3901_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Rule of Care:</A></B> Meet your spouse's most important <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A>.<BR><LI> <B><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3904_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Rule of Time:</A></B> Take time to give your spouse undivided attention.<BR><LI> <B><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3903_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Rule of Honesty:</A></B> Be totally open and honest with your spouse.<BR></OL> <BR>and...<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html" TARGET=_blank>The Policy of Joint Agreement(POJA)</A><BR>and...(if at all possible... bringing some "faith" back into the marriage)<P>Skill/faith development (or redevelopment) are the cornerstone towards "that step to a new beginning".<P>You're doing good... <P>Keep on postting when you're down...<P>Have you ever checked out the "Inspirational" sections on my <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000013.html" TARGET=_blank>Notable Posts/Threads</A> post...<BR>...some <B>will</B> lift your spirits!<P> <P>Jim

JL and NSR,<P>OK guys. I'm ready. I know that I need to let my own pain out and unleash the ugliness that's stuck in me. It's the only way to get rid of it and stop carrying it around and letting it drag me out of Plan A.<P>I have lots of reading to do. Seems I jumped ahead a few steps and it's happening faster than I can learn about things here. I guess learning as you go is more meaningful in some ways.<P>Thank you for the strength. Thank you for the encouragement. Thank you for the prayers.<P>I hope he will come back to me. Come back to his family. I hope I hope I hope. I truly believe he will. Maybe I'm in denial? No, just optomistic. I refuse to continue in a life where I look for the worst possible outcome.<P>Thank you both - so much for today. I hope I'm able to give back when I learn more.<P>Warmest thoughts,<P>Cali

Cali--<BR> Don't have a lot of time right now. Just want to say I've read this thread...so much sounds familiar...YOU ARE DOING GREAT!!!<P> Your H will be in withdrawal and hurting. You have the chance to support him thru this very difficult time...if he will let you, and you can stand it, it is a good opportunity. We are 5.5 months away from when my H told me he wanted to leave, did not love me (tho cared about me)...two weeks later found out he was "in-love" with OP. Never, ever thought I could hold him while he cried for her, talked about all sorts of stuff...<P>We are rebuilding our marriage now...he realizes he was not truly in-love with OP, tho he does still have some rather mixed-up feelings for her. We are even falling in love again (with each other ). <P>You will find strength you did not know you had. You are really doing well so far...it is not a quick, easy process, but it can be done. Hang in there!!!!<P>Kathi<P>

Kathi - <P>OH THANK YOU!! Sharing your experience with me truly gives me hope. It is these things that give me the strength to keep going. I have to keep a positive outlook and believe that we were meant for each other. And that all these hurtful experiences and the things we've learned from them are going to be what saves us in the end.<P>God Bless You Kathi!<P> <P>Cali<P>------------------<BR>

<small>[ January 31, 2005, 10:43 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

{{{Cali}}}<P>Followed you over here <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cali:<BR><B>He also said to her, "You know what the funny thing is? She doesn't hate you for what you did to her, she hates you for what you did to me." What's that supposed to mean. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It means that he sees you know as truly on his side, even in his lowest moment of total betrayal to you. That's progress of a real sort.<P>Cali, the gory bandaid of the details of the EA has been ripped off, and we discussed on the other board how that would be necessary in order for you to move on, whatever direction.<P>You should be on the cover of the Plan A brochure. I commend you for your strength. <P>In my opinion, you are playing this perfectly, and you are in a good position. He has to work out his ending of the EA -- let him. Expect it will flare up again...even if it doesn't better to be prepared for the worst. I personally guarantee you that relationship can not last. I don't see how they could even look each other in the eye right now.<P>It may not feel like it, but this was a good day! The truth is out, the EA is on the rocks, your H is correctly consumed with guilt, and he considers you a model of calm and strength.<P>As to you reading him your poetry and love letters...forget about that. He just wants the ego stroke while he is feeling unloved and hurt. Tell him you will put them away to share them with him if you two reconcile and he commits to a plan to salvage the marriage.<P>Hang in there, take your meds, and love your son!<P>Mike<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited June 02, 2000).]

Cali,<BR>I have to say that in reading the other post on this post of yours, that even though yesterday was the bummer beyond bummers that you DO have a very good chance here! I don't think that I could have said it better then Mike posted just above me here! WOW those words he said to you were so powerful. Not that anyone else's wasnt by any means!<P>You have recieved some pretty major "pick me ups" here since I have been following you and for you it has been wonderful to see others "rally behind you"<P>I do hope that this weekend has been a good one for soul seaching within yourself and that even though you felt that major "crash" or breakdown coming on, Mike saying that this was a "good day" under the covers was a direct hit as I see it also<P>YOU Cali have a chance, the ball is in his court so to speak, but you have the "bat" in your hands to hit the home run here!<P>You can win this and I wish you from the bottom of my heart many many happy days ahead for you!!! I can and hopefully will get better for you!<P>Feel good and I agree with Mike on one more thing!<BR>Hang in there, TAKE them meds...and most of all LOVE YOUR SON!!! He will be the best med you have!<P>Take wonderful care and hope to hear from ya soon<P>Drew!

Hang in there Cali. Take care of yourself and your son.<P>The best you can do is to be there for him and let him know that you can work thru this if he really wants to.<P>Don't let him put all his misery on your shoulders. He is looking for a friend now but you are more than that, you are his wife. I am just afraid by letting it all go w/you may cause future problems. He needs to go find some one else to commiserate with. By you seeing him at his worse he may remember that and pull farther away from you. Be there for him, understand him but don't be his counseler.<P>You will have good days and bad days, do the best you can and hold on to your son. He will bring a lot of joy to you now. Take your meds. YOu are a strong lady--we all can see that!

Hi everybody - <P>You sure know how to make a dreary Monday better! I'm kicking myself for not logging on over the weekend. Seems I'm always more focused and ready to handle things when I've got this kind of support.<P>I think I tripped up a little this weekend. I told him how I have been standing by him to be his friend, but that I wanted him to know how I felt too. Told him how much I hate the house and everything in it, how I wonder if she used my bathroom or drank out of the glasses. Did I wash the towels she cleaned herself off with? I told him these are just angry pent-up hurt feelings right now that will pass, I just need to let them out and let out the pain. I didn't yell at all, just stated my feelings. <P>However, when, last night, he came home and told me he hadn't seen her, I knew he was lying. Asked again and he said what does it matter? I said it definitely matters, he told me yes he was at her sister's for a couple hours. I told him as long as he was living with me, he could NOT continue to see her. I asked him if I had an affair, and the OM broke it off, but I continued to chase after him and call him EVERY DAY what would he do? He told me he would have already told me to leave long before now. So, I asked if he thought I was being unreasonable in my request. He said no. I asked if he had any respect for me, even as a friend, WHY would he continue to humiliate me by seeing her every day. He said he just wasn't thinking about me. He didn't know what he wanted.<P>I also told him one of the reasons I'd told him he could stay for the next week until his exams are over is because I thought it would be good for S to spend time with him. But he hasn't done that. He said he hasn't had much time (but he was gone for 7 hours yesterday, several of which were with her). I told him that today had been a perfect opportunity to spend with S, but I felt like he chose another woman over his son.<P>I went next door (blow off steam with SIL) and when I came back he had S in the sofabed with him playing together.<P>Soooo.... I am leaving town on Tues. Not supposed to be back till the following Wed. However, I am coming back on Friday. But no one knows this. H told me he was having a party at the house Sat night. (BTW, that is our 5th Anniversary). I thought, originally to come home and surprise him for our anniversary. Now, I'm still coming home, but I thought I'd just get him a card that says maybe this day marks the end of five years of unhappiness. Let's celebrate this day as a new beginning for us both. A new relationship together, built on friendship and trust, etc, etc. You get the idea.<P>He's then leaving for another city (hour away) on Sunday.<P>Well, now what do I do? Any input on the anniversary thing? Should I just pop in Friday night to see if he brought her to the house? He told me he would not have her in the house, "not like I have a chance anyway."<BR>So maybe if she really broke it off, it is over. But she's still allowing him around her. Although, she hasn't made any attempts that I've seen to get to him. It's all him chasing her around and it's disgusting!<P>How do I proceed????<P>------------------<BR>

Cali,<P>Aren't you setting yourself up for a big disappointment... on a very "tender" day (5th anniversary)... with the more than real likelihood of the OW being at the party?<P>A thought like "He told me he would not have her in the house"... isn't too realistic... is it?<P>It is so hard to stay on the Plan A bandwagon...<BR>...part of what needs to be started is some more honesty perhaps...<BR>...maybe you want to be frank about coming home Friday?<P>Just an idea... <P>Jim

Jim, I know this is bizarre, but I really feel she won't be there. His friends don't condone the actions he's made and wouldn't be comfortable with it. When he went to Best Friends house to pick up musical equipment he even invited him (who won't come) but he wouldn't have done that if he was going to have BF's W there.<P>I think Friday night is the night he may do something with her. They work together that night and he's been staying late to talk to her after work. (Incidentally, whole town knows about situation - I can't go anywhere without someone asking me if he's "doing the little redhead") I explained that his staying and talking to her out back just makes people talk more. I don't think he cares.<P>Anyway, I want to see if he will be true to his promise and leave her alone while he's living with me. Even if I'm out of town. On the other hand, if I surprise him at the party, will he just get angry? He told me about the party before he knew I wasn't going to be there. He asked me if it would be ok. I asked if I was supposed to find somewhere else to go that night. He said no, I could definitely stay and have a good time with everyone if I wanted to. <P>So... Maybe it would be a great way to "end" things the night before he moves out of town. Maybe we can have a good time with each other and he'll remember that. <P>As to the card with my added explanation. What do you think? I don't feel right not doing ANYTHING on that day. I understand he feels the marriage has been over for a long time - nothing to celebrate. But it will be a day of rememberance and also great pain for me. I just want to share my positive feelings with him that day.<P>He still doesn't want to be reminded I'm his wife. Said last night he had to decipher when I was being his friend and when I was being his "wife who still wants to be my wife." I told him that was not for him to judge, my actions have been largely out of friendship, but he could not change my feelings for him. Also told him I couldn't be his wife anymore. Probably all in all not the most rational thing to say. But I did tell him I was confused too and didn't know quite what I feel for him. But that I do love him. He doesn't even acknowledge me when I say that. I asked if it bothered him to hear it - he said no.<P>Weird.... confused.... need clarity. Tonight is the last night I have with him before I go out of town. I can't shake the feeling I've got to keep my mouth shut and make it a nice place to be for him. I need to not ask questions and involve him in the subject of the A. I just need to show him how good things can be with us.<P>Am I on the right track??

Hi Cali...<BR> I think you are right that, for the most part you need to "make it a nice place to be for him. I need to not ask questions and involve him in the subject of the A. I just need to show him how good things can be with us." I do think it is Ok to have and express your feelings sometimes, but as you did...w/o LB, and calmly. Expressing them too often would probably be a LB tho...<P>As for the party, I would be honest with him and tell him your plans have changed and you will be back. Surprising him could easily backfire, and besides, your spouse does have the right to know your whereabouts...it is a basic part of the Harley Honesty Policy. Knowing you'll be back soon may even help him stay stronger...but, do not be surprised if he backslides. Plan A!<P>Hang in there---<P>Kathi