If you read my earlier post on may 26th, you will know more of what is going on...I just returned from a 5 day trip. I asked my husband to read SAA while I was gone, and I typed up a list of things we had agreed to over a week ago, such as: openness and honesty - access to communication,etc; blood test; counseling(which he has not agreed to), and so on. He did not read the book, nor do I think he even opened it, nor did he sign the agreement. I do not think he is doing any of the things we agreed to...He thinks we can just "move forward" - not discuss anything, etc. He promises it is over with the OW - but should I be suspicious if he is not following through on promises? How do I get him to follow thru without "nagging" or LB's? Also, there is still no move toward physical intimacy(which I do not want until after a test anyway), but is this normal? What if he refuses to go to counseling? Can recovery occur without it? And, my daughters are so hurt and I feel he needs to go for all of us...I feel he just expects us to forget all about it... help...

Annc,<P>Did you H ever send a "breaking off of relationship" letter to the OW?...<BR>...this is a critical step forward.<BR>..."How to tell a lover that the relationship is over letter(on page 58-59 of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6070_sa.html" TARGET=_blank>'Surviving An Affair'(SAA)</A>)"<P>Your H sounds like a very typical "conflict avoider"... a common male trait... but some women have it too!<P>"I do not think he is doing any of the things we agreed to...He thinks we can just "move forward" - not discuss anything, etc."...<BR>...he seems to <B>not</B> have whole heartedly agreed to the "agreements"...<BR>...it takes time for both of you to work out a personal <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html" TARGET=_blank>Policy of Joint Agreement(POJA)</A>.<P>"He promises it is over with the OW - but should I be suspicious if he is not following through on promises?"...<BR>...again ... the letter is important!<P>"How do I get him to follow thru without "nagging" or LB's?"...<BR>...this is going to take a bit more patience...<BR>...and lower expectations...<P>"What if he refuses to go to counseling? Can recovery occur without it?"...<BR>...yes recovery can start... but counseling will help...<BR>...if he won't go... <B>you go</B>!<BR>...make sure it's to a counselor who follows MB principles!<P>"I feel he just expects us to forget all about it"...<BR>...forgetting will take a long time...<BR>...forgiving has to come first!<P> <P>Jim

dear Jim,<BR>I tried to talk to him last night and his reply was, "I am not going to go backwards, we have had a great week and I will not go back into the past." Avoidance!! I was trying to express my concern that he has not started to follow through on our agreements and the issue of physical intimacy. So, I wrote him a letter which he "skimmed" this am, said he will read it tonight - he came in and kissed me and said "I love you, and yes I am committed to our marriage - I have not changed my mind." So, I guess I will have to be patient and lower my expectations as you advised. I feel as if I am walking on eggshells a lot of the time - it seems so odd that the BS should feel like this when it was the WS who was terribly wrong...why don't they feel that way?? And, I am having all sorts of wild imaginings...wondering if he has been unfaithful before, yet he will probably never admit it. This is so hard...I am so attempted to contact the OW, but that would probably be a bad move...<BR>I appreciate all your help - this site is a blessing...<BR>Thanks, A

Annc, feel glad that your spouse at least says he committed to the marriage. You are right, he has a lot of issues that you two will have to deal with, but the fact that he seems to want to be in the marriage is a big plus, in my opinion.<P>My H is just hanging in there because of pressure from morality, parents, God, etc. I keep hoping that will change one day, but it is so hard to be working on issues with a completely unresponsive spouse. As far as the intimacy issue. I'm going for it with/or without his help. I figure if I can get things started, he will soon want to follow. Isn't that what happens with most men being that it is their number one need? Anyway, he will probably die before ever starting anything with me, but I keep thinking that eventually he may see that I really want that part back in our relationship as much as he does.<P>It is very difficult. When he says no or displays no interest, I just feel even more rejected. I told him so, and he says, "Now you know how I felt for four years." Well, we've talked about that too (the pill--big mistake who would have ever though it would lower your sex drive like that), but either he doesn't believe me or he is too afraid of being hurt again. <P>So, sorry I rambled, but my advice is to try taking the lead on the intimacy front. (Of course, I am assuming that he is the one who needed it and you didn't provide and not vice versa). I'm here if you need support or encouragement. I'm working on the same thing.<P>Good luck to. I hope that God helps you and your H to find peace and happiness.

Annc,<P>What about the "How to tell a lover that the relationship is over letter(on page 58-59 of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6070_sa.html" TARGET=_blank>'Surviving An Affair'(SAA)</A>)"?<P>...and...<P>As far as counseling... won't <B>you go</B>?<P>Please don't contact the OW...<BR>...it will only hurt your Plan A.<P> <P>Jim

Dear Lapeine,<BR>Thank you for your reply...I am taking the lead on the intimacy and he tells me to "relax" and will come in time...And, he tells me he wants to wait til after he gets a blood test. It is so hard to feel rejected and so hard when he won't discuss anything!! God bless to you also, and let's keep in touch, please! Sincerely, A

Dear Jim,<BR>I talked with him today and asked him to read the letter I wrote when he gets home and that I want to discuss it. He said that he will not discuss anything in the past - that our approaches are different and that he will absolutely not go backwards. I asked him again about counseling and he said, no! He will not go backward. I said that we need to know and understand what happened to bring about the A in the first place, and he said no he will not go there. I asked how we can prevent it from happening again if we don<BR>t discuss what happened to cause it and that his not talking to me is very hard and frustrating. I said that we agreed he would do several things while I was out of town and he did not do them so I wonder how committed he really is, and that we need completely open and honest communication. He is tired of my "snooping", my getting into his yahoo email each day and that he is tired of the "roller coaster" - I said how am I supposed to feel? Can you imagine how you would feel in my shoes? He said he will not go there and that if I have to snoop and talk about it, then too much damage has been done and this will not work. I asked him to read the letter and start SAA tonight and he agreed to, but we will see...I told him we need to communicate!!! I am so frustrated that he will not talk to me - I feel I am walking on eggshells going out of my way to be nice to him - why isn't it the other way around? Dr. Harley advised me to ask him to read the book while I was gone, and if he did not and refused counseling, to consider Plan B. I am so confused!!! How do you work on a marriage when one person won't talk? I told him I needed to know what needs I wasn't meeting in order to know how to prevent this again - same reply - I won't discuss it. It is so infuriating...<BR>Help! As to the letter, I need to get him to read the book first, don't I? He will not even discuss the A, let alone writing a letter... A

Oh, Annc, it sounds as if he is making excuses which is perfectly normal. I know it feels as if you are walking on eggshells. My H is the same way. It is like if he doesn't talk about it, it will go away. My psychologist asked us the other day, "Do you talk about it?" and H replied, "All the time. It is too much." So, the counselor advised us to talk about other things--friends, movies, work, computer, books, etc. I try to really minimize talking about the A although I am not real good at it. <P>Like I have said before, I use matter of fact language when referring to it. Yesterday evening, I was smiling and H asked me what I was thinking about. I replied honestly, "Well, I was thinking about the positive things regarding the A." He asked, "Like what?" I said, "Well, I know where the problems are in our relationship and I know what you need and maybe you will learn what I need. I also lost 10 pounds and can now fit back into that sexy dress that I wore when we first started dating. Another few pounds and I could be quite stunning! Then perhaps I can really seduce you again." He just stared at me. I felt so good. Perhaps it was a LB, but it was worth it just to see his face.<BR>

Dear L,<BR>Thank you for your help - I appreciate your talking to me...<BR>Yes, he is full of excuses - did you read my reply to Jim? I do not understand why H is so opposed to counseling!!!!! And, I feel he is trying to make me feel bad for asking him to go. This is so hard and frustrating, isn't it? I feel like he is making me out to be the "bad guy." Some of my friends are telling me that if he refuses to go to counseling that I should initiate plan B and tell him to leave - that he has it too easy and will do it again because he has not had to "suffer." - gets to come home every night and I am so nice... So, what do you do? <BR>Part of me feels I need to get tough, and the other part feels like I need to wait it out a little longer...I am so confused!!!<BR>I liked your reply about the dress to your H!!! good for you!<BR>Talk to you soon, A

PS, L,<BR>I have lost lots of weight, too - almost down to what I weighed in HS!!, but not a diet I would recommend, Ha!!!!<BR>The funny thing about the sex is that I have always been the one with the higher sex drive so this is blowing me away and making me imagine all kinds of things!!! It will be interesting to see if he reads my letter and starts SAA tonight... a

Jim,<BR>Are you a counselor? You sound so wise and I so appreciate your advice and support!!<BR>Sincerely, A

I don't know about Plan B. Is he with the OW still?<P>Well, I finally got something from my H. He says he just doesn't want to be married anymore. He wants to do what he wants when he wants and not have to worry about it. He knows that is selfish, but that is the way he is feelings. I have encouraged him to talk to the counselor and tell him what he told me. I don't know what to tell him except that I love him.<P>I have been reading all the cards he has given me throughout the years. They were so sweet and romantic. he would tell me how happy I made him. I just can't believe that he doesn't understand that we could be like that again.<P>I can tell you an I are going to become real friends on this board. Hang in there.

Annc:<P>I'm reading your posts, and you have a lot of well-intentioned plans in place. But you're presenting them as major lovebusters (at least from where I sit):<P>Signing an agreement? Selfish demand! Disrespectful judgement!! Just how the heck are you supposed to build love by forcing your husband to sign a piece of paper?? He signed your marriage license, and that obviously didn't work. He promised to be true to you in front of God, and that didn't work either.<P>You need a different plan...<P>I think your suggestion of counseling is excellent, but YOU should be doing it. YOU need to learn appropriate marital skills to build this marriage up---and you're obviously interested in doing so. That's not saying that your husband should be off the hook, but he's obviously not ready to do this, and sometimes the best way to get someone to try something "new" that they're not comfortable with is to lead by example.<P>I always recommend the phone counseling at MarriageBuilders---I've counseled with Steve Harley extensively, and I've found him to be a terrific, effective coach. In addition, most of the counseling is done "one-on-one"; even if both spouses are participating. It's basically a program to learn these marital skills and to change your marital behaviors for the benefit of the marriage. It really works---even if only one spouse is doing the counseling. Give them a call at 888-639-1639.<P>Your husband wanting to forget about the affair is pretty normal. And you can recover from the affair (even if he doesn't do counseling)---if you both start learning the appropriate marital behaviors to support your marriage. Get to counseling---you'll find it a big help.

Dear Lapeine,<BR>Oh, I am so sorry - I hope your H will come around!!! I will pray and hope that he does, and I hope he will want to work it out.<BR>Continue to love him...<BR>I look forward to hearing from you.<BR>A

Dear K,<BR>You are probably right about the agreement.Just this a.m., I decided to back off and chill and try to "relax" but it is hard. I am seeing a counselor - she is the one urging that I get my H in. And, yes, I am calling to set up a session with Dr. Harley - I called yesterday, yet they were closed for summer hours, so I will call today. <BR>I appreciate your advice. Right now, I am just trying to get him to read SAA, and as you say, maybe the counseling for him will come later. I guess I have a couple friends who are saying - he doesn't need to be there if he refuses counseling - he needs to go, he is getting off easy, etc. They think I am being wimpy and he'll get the message that he can do this again because I haven't been "mean" or kicked him out. Yet, I need to decide my tolerance level. At least, he said he has ended the A; he talked to our oldest daughter, not really saying the A word but apologizing and telling her we are committed to one another - guess I need to focus more on the positives, and be patient. I always worry that he is still emailing her- I have decided I despise the internet.<BR>This is just so hard, and I am so thankful for this site!!!! A

To Jim,Lapeine, K, and everyone who has been helping me:<BR>As I mentioned I decided to back off a little from asking him to follow through with our supposed agreements, but I would still like him to read SAA and can't seem to get him to do it. He makes "promises" and then doesn't follow through and it is so frustrating. And, friends telling me I need to get him out, that he needs to leave, doesn't help, either. They think that he has it too easy and hasn't had to experience consequences, what do you think? I am still plan Aing, he says he is not in touch with OW and I have seen no evidence that he is, so...??? Dr. Harley suggested that I ask him to read SAA while I was gone last week and if he didn't, then to see an attorney, ask him to leave. I chickened out - he is being very nice, saying he loves me, calling from work, etc., so do I "punish" his efforts?? I have a counseling session on Fri., and then a phone consult with S.Harley next Weds.<BR>He also is making no move toward physical intimacy!!! Guys out there, I need your advice!!!! Why, do you think? - he SAYS he wants to wait til after results of his blood test, yet he hasn't gotten it yet!!! And, you can be intimate without actually having intercourse!!! So, I feel he is making excuses which makes me feel horrible: makes me wonder if it's because he is still thinking of or is with OW, guilt, no desire for me, etc. etc. I would appreciate your thoughts....<BR>help!!! A

Annc, I'm probably the last person who should be helping you right now. Last night, I had a breakdown--major LB, details of which I won't go into. As fas as the sex goes, just know that I feel your pain more than you will ever know. And doesn't it feel like a rejection, just a slap in the face? My H told me he felt like this for years with me. Ouch, did that hurt especially now that I am experiencing the true force of it.<P>Anyway, hang in there. I still try to make little comments and initiate things. It is very difficult because I know that he's not interested, but on the times when I achieve success, it is the only time I can stop thinking about the problems and enjoy life a little bit. This is probably very unhealthy, but it is all I have right now.<P>Perhaps in time our Hs will come to realize how much we love them and want things to work out. I know my H feels like he is just hurting me more and more each day. It is an endless cycle that we can't seem to escape from. Punishing him for not reading SAA. I don't know if that is a good idea. It really goes agains Plan A and since you and I are both pretty new to D-day, I think you might want to give it some time. But, Dr. Harley is the pro. Of course, he doesn't see your H's actions. Perhaps you should ask Dr. Harley again what he recommends after you update him on things.<P>I will keep praying for peace for us all. May God be with you.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Annc:<BR>[B]And, friends telling me I need to get him out, that he needs to leave, doesn't help, either.[B]<P>Yeah. Well, while I'm sure you are in desperate need of friendly shoulders and advice, I think it is very unfortunate that friends and your children know about this. Complicates things dramatically. If I were the WS, it would probably lean me toward starting a new chapter in my life rather than continuing a situation starring shame and sackcloth. Maybe the concept of Protection needs to come into this. If you do successfully reconcile with your H, the relationships with all these confidantes will be a problem.<P><<<I am still plan Aing, he says he is not in touch with OW and I have seen no evidence that he is, so...???>>><P>So absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. Personally, I think you are entitled to something more than his word here. I'm not sure what. That letter thing sounds like a good idea, although certainly not proof either, as he could just tell the OW you are making him do it. The lack of a reignition of physical intimacy is troubling, but it could be just guilt on his part or maybe he really does have a concern with STDs.<P>Or....maybe he is waiting for you to forgive himbefore he shares your bed.<P>I agree with some of the other comments that you need to watch the lovebusting, and realize that presenting him with no hope of putting this all behind you is a dangerous path.<P>Devil's Advocate: If I were him, I might be thinking "Our kids know about the A and hate me, she is telling all her friends, and now I'm supposed to want to talk about this every day and read books about affairs and go talk to expensive shrinks who will want to dissect my mistakes in excruciating detail....maybe that burdenfree relationship with the OW is looking pretty good right now." <P><<< Dr. Harley suggested that I ask him to read SAA while I was gone last week and if he didn't, then to see an attorney, ask him to leave.>>>><P>As much as I admire the Harley's, this comment disturbs me. I'm glad that Stephen King doesn't market books like this. The Harley's have excellent tools, but they are certainly not the only tools on the market. To me, your H seems to be showing real progress, although not at the pace you would want (do any of them? ) <P>I think that the main thing I would be looking for is reassurance that the OW is out of the picture. And, no, I won't take your word for it. Maybe leave the proof upto him -- put the question to him. I'm not recommending this, but another possible stratagem could be to say that you are considering contacting the OW under the pretext of investigating the STD issue....that given his stated concern about the blood test, you are fostering your own health concerns.<P><BR>

But, Mike, how do keep friends and family from knowing about it. You have to do something for you in this entire situation. My family has been my best support. Now, we are not sharing things any further than my immediate family. If things get patched up, I wouldn't want H to feel uncomfortable at Christmas.<P>As for friends, well, I had to turn to someone on discovery, so naturally it was friends.<P>So, Annc, you can't beat yourself up about what has already occurred. I would keep from telling as many new people as possible and gain your support from those who already know.

Dear Lapeine and Mike,<BR>Oh, thank you for your replies!!! It is good to get a man's perspective, too! You are probably right on, Mike, in that my H doesn't want to bare his "mistakes" and get criticized in counseling - or at least that what he thinks would happen. He is very closed and doesn't like others to know his business. So, oops, I feel badly about confiding in some very close friends, yet I have no family - both parents are dead, no sisters and brothers, and I needed help. The friends are out-of-town, so he may never see them, and some are very old friends of mine that are like sisters. I guess women need to talk and vent whereas men do not. He did speak to our oldest daughter before I left to go out of town last week - did not say the A word, but apologized for making mistakes, did not want to hurt any of us, and that he is committed to me and to them, etc. So, I think this was definitely a positive. I have mentioned contacting the OW in my posts to verify it is over, but I may be giving her an opening to contact him, etc. I do not trust someone who called and brought it into my house - she is also married with two children!!! So, she is not really "available." I have talked with my H's sec.- OW was calling his work and hanging up on her, too!! She is my ally and says there have been no calls since he ended it - she tried for a few days, but he didn't answer. As to emails, I don't know... the internet encourages such awful things - secrecy, etc - I have found out more about what is on the internet that I ever wanted to know in past month!! As to sex - it has been almost 4 months - and I have never been the one to turn it down, so yes, this hurts. He says now that he wants to wait for him to get test - he fought me about the test at first... now is he using it as an excuse to keep putting me off? This has been so hard - major rejection!! And, I would love for him to do for me what he was doing for OW - bought flowers, lingerie,and who knows what else!!!! Always has told me he doesn't want to go into lingerie dept. - embarrassed...<BR>And, Mike, maybe he would rather run, but he says he wants to stay - I asked him again the other night. I really am trying to be nice and show love...have taken up golf to be able to spend more time together...<BR>Patience? No nagging? Hang in and see if time helps? <BR>Oh, Mike, he does not know I have told anyone, and at least I have not told my SIL and MIL...and as I said, he may never see these friends again, just me...<BR>I know, I am feeling guilty about venting, but I was so upset and needed help. Lapeine, please keep me posted on your situation and we will pray for each other that our Hs will come around in time... Mike, do you not think reading SAA is a good idea - I find it pretty positive, and with wonderful suggestions as to how to start recovery...<BR>Look forward to hearing from y'all again,<BR>Sincerely, A<P>