To everyone who has been helping me and to new posts:<BR>Please read my posts on what now... I just added one - lack of sex is driving me crazy, as well as H's failure to follow through with our agreements....<BR>Is his "no sex" normal??? <BR>How do I get him to follow through with reading SAA, open and honest communication, blood test, etc - some of the things we agreed to? He absolutely refuses counseling, yet I am going...<BR>Need advice, Thanks!! Annc

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Annc:<BR>[B]Please read my posts on what now... I just added one - lack of sex is driving me crazy, as well as H's failure to follow through with our agreements....<BR>Is his "no sex" normal?[B] <P>It could mean a lot of things, ranging from the EA still going on to a real concern about STDs to his own guilt.<P>Have you done everything possible to make him want to be intimate again?<P>Devil's Advocate here: Say the EA is really over...I think that if I were in his shoes....feeling guilty, kids hating me, his mistake the topic of discussion for your friends, constant pressure from W to discuss EA read affair books, and go to counseling, possibility of STDs, wondering if this will ever be put behind the two of you and he will be forgiven......and the only card I have is withholding lovemaking from my desperate wife, that might be something some men would do. It is one area he can control, and where your obvious need and desire is there to stroke his ego.<P> <BR>

Dear Mike,<BR>I really appreciate getting a man's perspective...so, you think just back off, relax, and "let it happen" as my H suggested the other night...would be best course of action? When you say it is the only thing he can control and my need and desire is there to stroke his ego - can you elaborate more on this? During A, he was looking at porn sites on internet...so see how this has me imagining all kinds of things... just difficult to know what is behind lack of intimacy because he will not open up to me, and he really never has been good at that - communication - which is one thing I feel contributed to an A. His family never "talks", you just sweep it under the rug...and it supposedly goes away. He also did not have a good relationship with his mother - she was not very nurturing and favored older brother; which is another factor here, I feel...which counseling may help with that, but...<BR>Please keep in touch - you are very helpful.<BR>Thanks, A

Sorry, I can't give you a man's perspective on the subject.<P>Can the two of you get away for a night or a weekend? Just being away from home might make you both feel "free" of the whole mess for a little while. If you make it a casual trip without the pressure of romantic dinners, etc. you might find yourselves glad to be together and to talk about other things, trivial things, whatever. It may turn to romance or may bring you closer in other ways. <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Annc:<BR><B>I really appreciate getting a man's perspective...so, you think just back off, relax, and "let it happen" as my H suggested the other night...would be best course of action?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, if pleading isn't working, that seems to be the alternative, right? <P>Also, clinically, strictly from a outside viewpoint, if a sex partner is saying let's wait until a blood test, maybe they know or fear something you don't. <P>Ann, he may also simply be mourning the end of the affair. Give it time. Tressa makes a good suggestion about getting away together.<P><<<When you say it is the only thing he can control and my need and desire is there to stroke his ego - can you elaborate more on this?>>><P>Okay, Devil's Advocate again. Reverse the situation. You are the shamed one, on the outs with friends and family, perhaps resenting that this issue has become My Favorite Topic with your spouse despite you apologizing and asking repeatedly that the two of you move on. Add in the history you just gave me of his upbringing being non-communicative. He has no interest in an MB journey of self-realization right now...and may never. Maybe you just have to take him at his word -- he is sorry, he has broken it off with OW, he wants to move on. <P>But you won't let him. You want to dialogue and do forensics and talk to third parties and read books about it. Not comfortable for him, is it? But you have the upper hand...he screwed up. Now, on top of the resentment toward you and guilt and shame, you want something FROM him. Sex. Well, that is one tiny area he can have the upper hand and feel empowered in this swirling nightmare.<P>I'm just talking here, I could be totally wrong. But I could see myself reacting like that. Maybe drawing it to a negotiating crescendo at somepoint and saying "You want to make love? Okay, promise me I'll never hear the word "affair" from you again!"<P><<Please keep in touch - you are very helpful. Thanks, A>>><P>Well, opinions vary on that, but I'm glad to be of help.<P>Best Wishes,<P>Mike

AnnC,<P>I guess I have a slightly different perspective than Mike does. I don't think it is a control issue. I think it is a performance issue. You seem to feel that he should be able to perform sexually no matter the situation. <P>Let us consider this. Say you were in his shoes. Lots of guilt, subject A in all conversations with friends, the affair the subject of all of his discussions. Lots of questions about how could you do this to me, what a lousy human you are, what a losy mother you are to your children, the children hate you. <P>Are you ready for sex yet? I don't think so. I'll bet if the situation were reversed you wouldn't let him near you. Especially, if withdrawl is also still going on.<P>AnnC, let me ask you something. Is there anything about your H you like or respect? I don't want to hear the "I am in love with him" stuff. I mean right now does he do anything you appreciate?<P>If the answer is yes, then why don't you tell him. You see you have been devastated by this affair, but so has he. You see now that he is trying, all that he stood for and all of the images of himself as a good person are shattered. It will take him awhile to find the pieces of himself and put them together.<P>You no doubt have had some questions about your desirability since this happened but you never thought of yourself as a worthless cheater, a person whose word is not good, a person that your children cannot respect, much less your spouse. He is going through this.<P>So if you want to rebuild the marriage you need to help rebuild him. That is why the no LB's mandate from the Harleys. That is why it is difficult to do Plan A, but it is necessary. The betrayer have seriously damaged themselves.<P>You asked why won't he follow through with the things he has promised. Because they all hurt him. Each of those things makes him admit that he is beneath contempt. Most people won't willfully hurt themselves. <P>Time is of course the major answer, but so is some encouragement. Sit down and decide on one of the small things that you would like done. See if the both of you can accomplish it together. Once that is done, move to the next. <P>I'll be willing to bet that the STD testing you will have to make the appointment for him. Heck, AnnC, men don't even like to go to the doctor for a physical. This trip means he has really really violated some fundamental aspects of his life, this isn't a problem of just overeating and not getting exercise.<P>So think a little about this and see if you can gently steer him in the right direction. The sex will come when he becomes less guilt ridden and feels that you will accept him again as your H.<P>Hope this helps.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

wow JL, that helped me too...I love this forum. I don't know what I would have done without finding it. I'm having some of the same problems with my spouse. He is very embarassed by this whole ordeal, but sometimes I feel like I'm the only one searching for answers. What you said made a lot of sense. It just helped me decide that I will make the doctor and couseling appointments for us. I felt he should do it sense he is the betrayer...your words just changed my mind...thanks to everyone!

Dear JL,<BR>I agree with Confused - wow! you really helped - you put it in a light that I had not really considered. However, I blew it last night - It was my birthday and I got "dressed up" really nice to go to a dinner/dance golf tournament deal. Felt I looked good, and when I got no response, it really hurt and I let my feelings be known when we got home... did not help matters. So, I HAVE to make myself back off... and what you said helps give some perspective. I am just impatient and it is hard waiting - I was upset that he keeps putting off the test.He says he will go this week, but we shall see... Frustrated, A

Thank you JL for your post. It just does seem really unfair that the betrayed spouse seems to have to do all the work while the wayward spouse finds himself.<P>I'm really not good with the Plan A stuff. I have to get better. Just talking about it is an LB and last night it probably didn't help that I got angry and called the OP a manipulative homewrecking b****. I don't even curse, but I really have been lately. I'm slipping back into my old HS habits.<P>AnnC, I totally understand the sexual frustration. It's just awful to feel unwanted. This is very much how I feel constantly these days. i have no advice for you. If I did, I wouldn't be in the same boat! Hang in there.

Dear L,<BR>I agree - I am not doing well with plan A, and I feel the same way about us Bs's having to do "all the work." Just doesn't seem fair. And, I feel like I am having to win my husband's love again - like we aren't married, but "dating" and it is a very insecure feeling - I wonder constantly if he even likes me anymore, and I do not like feeling this insecure!!!! <BR>I drove by OW's house the other day - and this makes it even more confusing - she is from a totally different background(I am not trying to sound like a snob, but it just amazes me!!! She is not someone I would ever think he would hook up with!!!). We are going on a family vacation in 21/2 weeks, and I am wondering if the sex issue will even be resolved by then - if not, it will not be fun...for me, anyway. This is not fun!!!!<BR>Bless all of you for your help and support - A

Hi again,<BR>H is really not very nice today - wants to be left alone - says he doesn't feel well - same "excuse" he used right after discovery. Guess he is still in withdrawal - makes me wonder if he even wants to be here...<BR>A

Help everyone:<BR>As I said, H was obviously acting irritated with me yesterday - went looking for patio furniture and he complained entire time...etc. Then, no children at home last night, having a nice dinner - his mood seemed to get better, so I followed my counselor's advice and posed this question to him: There are 3 basic ways that people use to make others feel special - 1.) Verbal/written: "I love you", etc., cards letters, emails, etc 2.) Tasks - doing things for that person, buying presents, etc. and 3.) Touch - from holding hands, backrubs, kissing to sex. So, I explained these to him and said in order for me to make him feel the best he can feel and visa versa, we need to know which one of those 3 ways we each like the best because I may use the one I like on him, and it is not really the one that makes him feel best. He tried the "this is too heavy, I don't want to get into it..." and I persisted, said how is this heavy wanting to know what makes you happy. He finally answered... and I explained that is why I want him to read SAA if he will not go to counseling because it gives ways to make marriage better. He brushed me off - it's too heavy, etc. Then, we got another phone call at 4 this morning - H thought it sounded like a fax call last time, but I answered this time - there was a beep at the beginning - I said it didn't sound like a fax, but maybe a recording device. He said it may be the H of someone he fired who works at night and has some sophisticated machinery(he knows where he works..) - I said why would he call? - "out of meanness." I called H at work later - said that I am wondering if he will ever read or want to discuss books and advice on making marriage stronger - "I can't discuss this right now." - I said if he won't, then how can we really start recovery and make things better? Then, I asked him if he thinks it could be OW calling, "I told you my theory..." I said the fact that he doesn't think it could be her makes me wonder if they are still in contact...because she is a receptionist and has access to sophisticated phone equipment and the know how to do it... "I won't discuss this - I have to go!!!"<BR>OK - maybe all this was major LB's - but I am getting frustrated - he is withdrawing love units from my LB at a fast pace right now and I am wondering if I can live with someone who treats me like this. Sat. night was my birthday - I got a card...the patio furniture was to be my present - we wound up with nothing and he was irritated the whole time. And, sex - you know where that stands!!! I doubt he gets his test this week either... I am beginning to give up... Need help!! OK - maybe I am feeling sorry for myself...he had bought OW lingerie and flowers - I get a card...<BR>Not doing well....A

Me, again:<BR>I forgot to mention that he fussed at me a lot yesterday - about house, etc. - I mentioned that he seemed really irritated with me, but just very cranky about everything. So, I got him to go to grocery with me, trying to be very nice - said, "you seem to be irritated with me today...i am sorry if you are not happy - I am trying; I am not perfect, but I really am trying..." He said, "No, I am not irritated with you..."<BR>Ha!- right... How do you do this with a man who NEVER says how he feels...<BR>Can y'all tell I am at wit's end today - I guess being woken at 4 am and not going back to sleep doesn't help...ha!<BR>Later, A

Me again -- <BR>Sorry, I keep rambling, but just not a good day - Did I mention Friday night? Went out to dinner, stood at bar while waiting for table - H was checking out woman at bar big time. I even said something to him it was obvious - he said he wasn't!! I watched his eyes... turned out she is a friend of mine and we ate with she and her H. It really hurt that he was doing that - never really did that before...I am really wondering right now... A

Oh, AnnC. I don't know what to tell you except hang in there. It sounds as if you H doesn't really want the marriage to work, but he doesn't want to tell you that. At least my H is honest when he says he wants a divorce. The nice thing about that is that even though I know we are going to try and work on things, I can start preparing for the most likely scenario, i.e. setting up a checking account in my name, starting a savings account for separate living arrangements and attorney fees. I hate having to do this, but I don't know if my H will ever change his mind. He is so blinded by his feelings for the OW and guilt; I don't know if he will ever quit running away.<P>It doesn't sound to me though like your H is even trying at all. I would start working on protecting yourself. I know it sucks and I hate it and I hope that the savings can eventually by used to take a nice vacation somewhere with the two of us, but at this point, I just don't know.<P>I know what you mean about having to win your H's love again and dating instead of being married. I hate that too.

Annc,<BR>No advice on your marriage other than kill him with kindness! My h is a grump, too. The kids only have to breath wrong and he gets annoyed, so I too deal in patience. <P>About the phone thing. Once upon a time, a company started to fax messages on a broadcast series to many many many places. Somehow I got on their list, and started receiving phone calls in the middle of the night. Numerous tries with the phone company to trace these calls was a zilch. The phone company suggested call forwarding the signal to their fax machine, but didn't take care of the problem. We finally call forwarded the call to OUR OWN fax number (one at work), and found how who the company was. Then it was only a little detective work to do before we could call and ream somebody. Finally peace. Things like this do happen and it may not be the OW at all. If your h is just hearing a series of beeps - that is the signal (before the squeal) of a fax machine until it connects. <P>Good Luck!!<P>H

mail <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Annc:<BR><B>I said the fact that he doesn't think it could be her makes me wonder if they are still in contact...because she is a receptionist and has access to sophisticated phone equipment and the know how to do it... "I won't discuss this - I have to go!!!" OK - maybe all this was major LB's - but I am getting frustrated - A</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Arrrgghhh....Ann, timeout!. First off, it sounds to me like, as someone else said, you are on a fax broadcast or some sort of internet hookup list, and you are getting an occasional call. You are turning this minor incident into an LB mushroom cloud. Your H must be wondering "Is this my life if I stay with her? Every car that drives by, every time I'm late coming home, every time the phone rings, I get calls at work with a conspiracy theory blaming it on my stupid mistake of an affair?" Pretty soon you will force him to reconsider his statement of commitment to your marriage and ask "Can I live like this????"<P>Remind yourself: You are in Plan A. You have no lovebank right now. He is in withdrawal from the OW. That is a good thing. But he is in pain and focused on that breakup. Until that mourning process is complete, you have to stay positive and supportive and not put relationship rebuilding demands on him like sex and counseling and reading books and filling your love bank. He knows what you want....you don't have to keep reminding him. When it is time, he will turn to you -- he has said as much explicitly. Be happy, that is more than many in your situation get. <P>Take a pledge that for two weeks you won't:<P>1. Mention a blood test<P>2. Pressure him to read any books<P>3. Pressure him on sex<P>4. Expect any love bank deposits.<P>5. Overreact...no react to any odd domestic incidents with theories about the OW.<P>I predict that if you can actually do this, you will see him start to emerge from this period of withdrawal. I think that if you can't get a Plan A up and going, you are risking driving him back to the OW or at least out of your marriage.<P>Stay strong!<P>

Not a good day today -<BR>Just had major LB conversation with H - I guess I am reaching the limit of how much I can take...I told him I do not feel he is committed to this marriage - because he is not following through on what he keeps saying he will do. He said we have two different philosophies of how to move forward - when I asked what his is, he said move forward - have fun, that he thinks we have been doing great. My approach is too serious!!! I said he will not talk and let me know what he is feeling - then he throws it on me, that I am up and down. I said that if he would just follow through instead of giving me lip service, that it would help me, how else am I supposed to feel after going through something like this - it is normal. Said I do not feel he is being honest with me, and if getting the test were important to him, he make the time to do it; how can he say we are moving forward when we aren't not even having sex - how can we have a marriage without it??? That this is limbo, NOT moving forward!! And, how am I supposed to feel about getting a card for my birthday, that I didn't get, that "is in the car", but is not in the car!!!! OK - so I am blowing Plan A - but there is a limit of how much we can feel like this??? How do you move forward when H will not talk!!!?????<BR>Kill him with kindness - I have been, but gets me nowhere... he is comfortable, coming home everyday, everyone being nice - this is his idea of a marriage???? - no communication or intimacy...<BR>I have really lost it today, haven't I?? A

Mike, <BR>Thank you for "calming me down" - guess I am really angry right now...this is hardest thing I have ever done...<BR>I will try to follow through with staying away from those 5 things for next two weeks, then see how I feel...hope I can make it that long! He is frustrating me and making me feel awful, so that is why this is so hard. It's the "unfairness" of it all!!! And, I really have stuck to my promise of not asking about the A - there are things I would like to know, ie, has she been in my house? etc. - at least, I have stayed away from that... The way we BS are treated at times does make one feel like you are losing your self respect... And, I wonder if this is the kind of marriage H wants - just "fun", no talk, no intimacy...<BR>Thank you for your encouragement - I will try to hang in... A

Mike and all,<BR>Would it be a LB if I were to pose this to him tonight - because after our phone conversation today, I feel I need to say something to follow through - maybe not.<BR>What if I say to him - "You know how I feel;I am not going to mention it again - you know what you need to do to really commit to this marriage. It is up to you. Understand I love you, yet at the same time this "limbo" is very hard on me and that I will know when I have reached my limit of enduring not moving forward."<BR>What do you think?? There is a point where I know I will not be able to stand this much longer...sometimes I wonder if he is pushing me to make a move(to get a divorce - he never wants to be perceived as a "bad" guy, so he may think he can take pressure off himself if I am the one who "wants" a divorce - that way he can say "I told her I was committed yet she wasn't happy with it, and so on." Appreciate thoughts...<BR>A