Hi, JL, Lapeine, QM, and eyeswideopen,<BR>So good to hear from all of you!!<BR>EWO - glad you posted - yes, we have lots in common and can offer support to one another!!<BR>Thank you!<BR>JL and L - <BR>Yes, I agree with your insight - H is not connected in feelings - made an intellectual decision - "it is the right thing," etc. Yet, I do not want him under these circumstances - do not want divorce, yet if he will always have these "lukewarm" feelings about me, that is not what I want - would rather be free to find someone who feels the same. I agree that he is still "sick" - just don't know how many more excuses I can take for "not having time to do things for me", for " not wanting to touch or be touched," etc.!! I wrote him another letter tonight; one of the things i said is that if you truly love someone, you will want to make them happy and try to meet their needs. <BR>Thank you for your encouragement. Y'all are great. I will admit,though,that I would rather not have my m, than accept someone not meeting my needs and making excuses - we 'll see.<BR>Will be out of town through Mon. night...will look forward to talking later..<BR>thanks, A

I don't have a lot of time today Annc, but I wanted to let you know I am still here. I know how you feel. I think our marriage will only make it if we are *both* able to meet each other's needs. I feel like I am the only one trying although I know that is not true. I would rather not be married though than be married to someone who does not love me. So, I am giving my H this chance for awhile. I am hoping that he will rediscover his lost feelings for me. If he doesn't, I know in time I will have to leave. I know that I cannot continue to be married to someone who cannot love me unconditionally the way that I love him. I don't know if I would ever find someone else as good as he is for me though. So, I would rather make this work and make both of us happy.<P>Gotta run. Catch you later.<p>[This message has been edited by Lapeine (edited July 28, 2000).]

Hi, everyone,<BR>Just got back from out-of-town - left early Fri. a.m. so I didn't have time to post a reply before I left - just got back late last night. Went to H's MIL for a visit. <P>Well, it was a good visit; had sex once - Sat a.m. - at my initiation...<BR>Now, this a.m. H says "we have been spending a lot of money lately (had to fly to visit his mom), maybe we better not go to .....this weekend." Well, we have been planning this trip for 2 months - as our get away to a resort about 3 hours away, for much needed time alone and our anniversary is next Tues. Well, I just said, maybe we could go for one night instead of two - he said he would rather go for 2 - maybe we could just ship kids out and stay home and relax, especially since we were away this past weekend...told me to think about it. I have to admit I am seething!!! and, I am not at all surprised he is trying to back out - guess I figured this would happen... I know there is a lot of stress at work, etc - but this is not good! I feel he may be trying to avoid issue of phys. int. etc. He sure didn't have a problem spending lots of money on her! I think I need to sit down tonight with him and just tell him how I feel - I am not sure this is going to work. We had issues before the A - as I told you, I have always been the one who wanted sex more, and have always been the more affectionate one. I am not sure he will be able to or wants to meet my needs... He even said to me last week after he read what I had written that he thinks it is me - that he will not be able to make me happy or meet my needs. So, maybe I blew that off ... maybe he was trying to tell me he can't, yet won't just come out and say how he really feels. As I mentioned above, what he said to her and what she said to him about his being affectionate is so contradictory to what he says to me and how he acts... I am going to present those contradictions tonight and say that he needs to be completely honest - I cannot continue in a relationship in which my H does not want to or cannot meet my needs...if you really love someone, as Dr. H says, you want to meet their needs...well, I am getting lip service, and now feel I have for years. This is going nowhere and I am tired of expending all my energy and worrying myself sick - it is just getting to be too much. I am tired of wondering if they are still in contact, I am tired of wondering if H will ever love me like I want to be loved... I plan to lay my cards on the table tonight... Trying to back out of something I have been looking so forward to just is the icing on the cake - and this is so typical!! As I said, I was "expecting" it.<BR>Would love to know y'all's thoughts...<BR>I give...<BR>A<BR>PS - Saw some very old and dear friends Sun. night who reminded me that things have not really been good for awhile...and don't I deserve more!!!????

PS<BR>To be honest, he has just killed all my desire to go away - don't really want to go with someone who doesn't want to spend time alone with me...

Annc,<P>Good to have you back. Well, has it occured to you that the money issue may be real to him? It might really be real. Didn't he suggest having the kids spend the weekend elsewhere and the two of you spend it alone at home? It doesn't seem from what I think I read, that he is avoiding you.<P>It sounds as if he is just tired. His attitude may change. I do think it is good for you and H to talk, but remember no LBs.<BR>Finally, it occured to me in reading this last post that you may really be pushing this sex thing to hard. Allow me to explain my perspective.<P>First, you say that you have always had the bigger drive sex wise. So this isn't new right? Second, you are expecting him to meet your needs sexually, but there is no evidence that he has ever been able to do it with the freq. you desire. <P>Sounds like a real familiar problem to us guys . I'll bet there isn't one guy in 10 that has a W that wants sex as often as they do.<P>You are having to initiate the sex and that bothers you. But most of us have been doing that for years and we are still married. Heck, to be honest my W has never initiated sex in 24 years of marriage. She feels it isn't a womans place to do so. Further, she doesn't really care if we have sex. But we are still married. Why? because I initiate. You do what you need to do to make the marriage work Annc. I know you expect your H to fulfill the ideal role, but your roles are reversed in this one area. It can be dealt with and men do it all of the time. So you know YOU can do it. <P>I am not telling you to "settle" but to be aware of what you want to demand. He meet your needs, your way. In this case he may not be able to and is very embarrassed about it. I don't know but think carefully about this.<P>Annc, you are tired and frustrated but it seems to me your H is being reasonable and was offering an alternative to going to this resort. From you words he wasn't issuing an ultimatum, he was making a suggestion. <BR>However, you are very sensitive and are reading things into his comment that he may have not intended. <P>So have your talk, but do it with the idea that you will "discuss" the minivacation and reach a mutually satisfactory solution. Talk about your fears, in the "I feel" context. But mostly do it calmly, it seems as if your H is coming around. You are understandably very sensitive right now.<P>So think about what I have said and I hope it helps.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Dear AnnC.<P>I haven't posted here for a while but it is almost as if we are running in parallel.<P>D day for me was November and some terrible moments until April. he kept seeing OW until end of march even though he said he was trying to make it work. She called me hoping that I would kick him out but instead it backfired on her. She has though kept trying to hurt me apparantley she hates me because I am married to my H and that I am 20 years older that her. She could not begin to understand why he wanted to stay with an "old woman". I am tall blond 48 years old but am told I look about 39 and people do tell me I am attractive. However my self esteem went to rock bottom which is made worse because my H does not tell me that I am. I agree with you JL we should not worry about our personalities or looks. We have to remember these were the things they fell in love with in the first place at the beginning of our relationships. I have to steel myself from asking him as he will reply" you know you are atttractive" <P>I feel I have been in recovery probably since May and things are getting better. But I exactly the same problem as you in the sex department. However the interesting thing is we make time for it, not in the evening when he gets tired and then I get upset but on a Saturday afternoon. Okay sometimes it feels a little contrived but he says its important for our relationship. Yes I do wish it was like the heady early days together but hopefully that passion will come back as he gets closer to me. But is much improved from February when he said he wanted to make a go of our marraige but would prefer it without the sex! In fact he has been more considerate in bed thinking about my needs in fact I did'nt realise that I had never had the big "O" ever in my life <BR>until about 3 weeks ago. He is the only person who has made it happen for me. i told him so too. Our time had been getting stale but hopefull this pleases him too. Okay so I worry about OW and what they did together but I can only be me. This is here and now and he is with me. We spend agreat dealo of time together recreationally and are going to try some different things together like sailing and I'm taking golf lessons again as he would enjoy playing with me. In almost every way he is the perfect man, helps around the home we take turns to cook. But the bits that I know are missing which don't come as spontaneously as they used to is the natural affection and the unsolicited I love you from him. But its getting there what is clear is that we are building a marriage which is much better than before as neither of us wants the one we had before. Its recognizing the difference that's important.<P>On another note, the b it I have struggled with too long is that I have been to clingy<BR>and sad. That is a big turn off for men. he did say to me where is that lively strong person I fell in love with. I took some advice from another thread and got the book "Love must be tough" by Dr. James Dobson an excellent read and to be reccommended because that changed the way I think now. In conjunction with Dr H advice and this I will be much stronger. the key is to not wear our hearts on our sleeves and show all the cards, but like a game of poker keep them guessing, create a mystery about yourself, don't appear to be so need, don't strangle him let him breathe. That way they will be intrigued and come closer to us. It's tough at times but I'm working on it.<P>I'm so glad you did'nt make the call to OW. I made that mistake on Sunday. I did'nt think there was any contact as I can sense she is around, strangely I get apain deep in my stomach when she appears and that happened on friday she called him on his mobile at home and he went into the garden and he took the call. I knew it was her, on Saturday I asked him had he heard but he said no. So Sunday evening I called her and she admitted that she had called to ask for a reference for a job> Then she made the point of telling me that she was'nt having a relationship with him now, she was getting her life back together. But she said that I should not trust him anymore and made a point of telling me that he was the one who told her that he loved her. And she rubbed the rest in. I have to remember she would also want to pay him back by hoping our marriage won't work out. So never be tempted and give OW the satisfaction of your pain.<P>I hope this gives you some encouragement that you are not alone. I know that I would not have got this far had it not been for the postings of so many good people on this site.<P>Also never forget we also need some spiritual help I always ask God to walk with me and thank him when I have a good day.<P>Sometimes we forget how much progress we have made, it does take time but if I look back to Jan/Feb I was a wreck. Don't forget to give yourself a pat on the back and realise how much courage you have.<P>I'm sure you will win, I have every intention of making sure I do. Look at the result you want.<P>Thinking of you in my prayers and you too Lapeine I've been following your postings for sometime.<P>God bless<P>kayto

Dear JL and Kayto,<BR>Thank you for your kind support!!<BR>Well, to be honest, I was so looking forward to getting away this weekend because we have not done something like this in over 10 years and feel we need it badly. Unfortunately, JL, staying at home just doesn't have same appeal - our house is torn up right now due to painting. As for the money, yes it is probably a real concern, but that was the compromise I offered to go one night instead of two. And, I won't even begin to tell you the kind of money he spent during his fling! And, as Ellen K. says in her book, sometimes you just have to forget about the cost and do what you need. The other thing that bothers me is that I knew he would back out - this is so typical; he tried to back out of our vacation if you remember. He does this constantly - backs out<BR>at last minute. I would have bet 10 million dollars if I had been able to.... I feel that he is trying to avoid a weekend of sex, if you really want to know the truth. I sent him an e-mail asking him to cancel. I am trying to remain unemotional and not needy as you suggest, Kayto. I didn't cry about how much I want to go, etc. I simply told him I am not surprised and gave him the phone number to cancel. I agree - I need to be "unneedy" - I am going to calmly talk to him tonight, try to remain unemotional. You see, I think the fact plain and simple is that he does not desire me - it may have been gone for quite some time. Everything he says to me contradicts what they said in their emails - he told her he cherished every touch; he tells me he doesn't like to be touched or touch - she told him he is affectionate, etc.Yet he tells me he is not.<BR>I have finally accepted that there is no desire there; yes, I think intellectually he wants me, but not emotionally. I think he wants the "facade" of wife and children - I think he is staying because he is afraid people will think badly of him. There is NO desire - how do you ignore a woman - and Kayto, I also do not feel I am unattractive for 48(same age)-I am also tall and blonde and am told I don't look my age, so I don't think it is that - but how does a man ignore<BR>a woman in sexy lingerie, etc.I am<BR>just not what he wants(in the bedroom). I am going to suggest a separation, very calmly-<BR>I am tired and just don't feel like banging my head against the wall any longer.<BR>I am also tired of wondering if <BR>he is still talking to OW and this is just a big game to him. I think he needs to be out there and find what he really wants... I can't continue to do somersaults to hope he will want me...<BR>A resigned, A

.<p>[This message has been edited by ohmy_marie (edited June 23, 2001).]

Annc,<P>Get a grip. Please you are putting words in his mouth and thoughts in his head that he never said or thought. You are talking yourself into destroying your marriage. I am not kidding here. At this point you are doing more damage than he is.<P>First, lets knock off the feelings for a second. This is not about the OW. He could have had her, he chose you. It isn't about being physically attractive, it is about his feeling, depression and general deadness. This will go away.<P>Annc, let me return to attractiveness. Women seem to have a very strange idea about women. That if a beautiful women shows up all men are in heat and will get her into bed. It doesn't work that way. All men will notice her, many will approach her, and the most cold hearted will bed her no matter what. But many will get to know her and if she treats them like dirt or is a jerk, will leave her. Period. <P>What has this to do with you. Well, if you keep making demands he cannot meet right now, then you will be like the beautiful, b---ch I am talking about. Nice looking, but no way. <P>Annc, he is still dealing with what he did. He is still in withdrawal. Unless he was the coldest most unfeeling man on this planet, he cannot just get rid of the feelings for OW, his guilt, and his destroyed self-image. It doesn't happen fast. Your demands are pushing back deeper into the dispair, not pulling him out.<P>He will come around, he wants to come around, he is there with you. But you cannnot make him feel things that are now covered up with many worse things. He must deal with them first. That is what the Plan A is about. It gives them time to adjust to the new situation, come back to the marriage, and be free of LB.<P>Quite frankly much of what you want to do is an LB. You say "I don't care." But you do or this wouldn't be bothering you so.<P>Annc, he will want you, he will love you, he very likely will be a better H than ever before, but you must give it time. The flower analogy is a great one. Dwell on it.<P>If he wants to stay home, and he is comfortable, and you make yourself comfortable, then who knows what may happen this weekend. It may well be better without the added financial stress. <P>Finally, please forget the emails and how much he spent. It is done, he is home with you. What you do know is that he has it in him to be romantic. Give him chance to pull it together and you just might be pleasantly surprised.<P>Please think about this.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

AnnC<P>Please do not LB it will pass. Your H will retreat to his cave. Take note of JL's advice. I too love to go away for a break but just now I don't push it as it sets too many expectations for our H's and it would be better to have time at home in a comfortable environment than a spoiled weekend. You will only feel worse if he does not perform or be as romantic as you are expecting him to be. I used to plan our holidays because I always used to but when times were difficult he was'nt part of it so if things did'nt live upto his expectations then it was spoiled for me. <P>So what I do now is let him decide and that matters so much more to me because that is what he wants to do himself he is not being forced to take a break just to please me but it is for us. That means alot just now so I am just going with the flow.<P>Like oh-marie I read e-mails and love letters<BR>to OW very romantic but I never forgot the original letters he wrote to me which I kept<BR>and re-read recently. I knew I kept them for a reason. All this tells me that is that he is still the romantic person who charmed me so much but who still has'nt got over what he is currently feeling.<P>Sometimes the hardest part of all this is that we focus so much on the problem that we forget all the good things that are going on around us. One interesting exercise that I tried from a book I read was to keep 2 daily journals :<P>1. A pretty looking book in which you wrote 5<BR>good things about the day. it could be you saw a beatiful butterfly, your mum called and made you smile, you may have looked in the mirror and thought that you have lovely eyes. Some days are more eventful than others but there is always something you can feel good about.<P>2. The other book (mine is grey) I write down all the things that are bothering me<BR>and use this as a way of release so I can get on with the rest of the day. <P>It may help.<P>Do not give up AnnC we are hanging in there with you<P>God bless<BR>Kayto

Annc, hang in there. It has to get better, doesn't it? Hey, I know you said your H won't go to counseling, but I can't remember if you are going on your own. I highly advise you to go. Also, have you read Harley's Give and Take. It's a great explanation on human behavior. I would have to say that your taker is taking over on the sex issue. Now, I know how important sex is to you, but I think you need a break. <P>Perhaps it's time for some reverse psychology. Have you thought about trying to give it up for awhile? Go buy yourself some pretty cotton pajamas. Throw all the sexy lingerie in a drawer (don't throw it away, we're hoping you need it later). Pretend that you aren't interested in sex. Convince yourself of it. Every once in a while (like once a week) tell your H, honey, if you ever get that desire for sex, let me know, I'm ready and willing. Try for a week. If that's sucessful, try for another week. I mean, he's a man. At some point, the desire has to come back, but if it doesn't, at least maybe some of your desire will go away.<P>The object here is to make him feel safe. I know JL's talked to you about this before, but if he is feeling pressured to perform, well, I hear that men have trouble under pressure. And, if your H is anything like my H, the pressure to do anything is going to make him run the other way. I pressured my H right into the open arms of another woman. Now, we don't want that to happen again, do we?<P>I know, shortly after learning of my H's A, I figured, it's just sex. I wanted sex all the time. I wanted to prove that I could do it and do it better than she did. What finally stopped me was when my H looked at me and said, "It's too much." Then I realized that my desire to have sex was actually a turn off for him. Now I've settled back down a bit. I try to balance sex into my life and not dwell on it. It's gotten a lot more comfortable. I actually have gotten back into some of my hobbies like cross stitching and scrapbooking. It has been a great source of stress relief. I will admit, sometimes, I wish my H would just rip that book out of my hands, or put that stitching off my lap and, well, you know, but I doubt that would ever happen. <P>I have the opposite problem. I have to convince my H that I like sex. I lost my sex drive for the last couple years that I was on the pill. Whether from the pill or from stress, it just went down. I enjoyed sex when we did it, but I was never in the mood, so he always had to get things started. I got off the pill, got to the end of my classes, and man, my sex drive just shot through the roof. Now, it's just a matter of getting my H to believe it. Quite frankly, Annc, I think I have the better end of the bargain in comparing our situations! <P>Hang in there honey. My H had no sex drive when this all started. Now, he says that sometimes he initiates it and sometimes I do, but either way he really enjoys the outcome. My problem is that he complained that sometimes he just wanted to make out and I always seemed eager to get to the "good stuff". Now, when I try to make out, he either doesn't want to, or we go right to the "good stuff". How can I meet that need if I'm not getting any help from him?<P>Well, Annc, I've written a book. More than you wanted to hear probably. Hang in there. It sounds to me like you and your H need to talk. My H and I aren't very good about that either, but we're at least working on it. There is a book we are using called "Fighting for Your Marriage." It's pretty good on the communication thing. Maybe you and your H can read it together. Good luck. You can do this.

Hi,<BR>Y'all are the best!!! Can't tell you how much I appreciate all your good advice!<BR>I think I was ready for the straight jacket and padded cell!! and y'all pulled me back in! OK - I will lay off the sex thing - promise!!! I will try my best to avoid all lb's! H called yesterday and said not to cancel, that he wants to go! - that we haven't been away together in years, so we are going! We talked - really talked - for at least an hour last night,and we both agreed that we are communicating better than ever, and that we need to talk like this. He was very sweet, apologetic, said he understands that I am having trouble letting it go - he has let it go more than I have, he says - said it was biggest mistake ever and we should work on marriage so he won't ever pull this s... again. Said email letter was bulls... on his part, etc. Said he does want and desire me, just that this has been so hard and please be patient - he does not want to give up on our marriage. I feel a great sense of relief and hope - JL, Marie, Kayto, Lapeine - you are right on about his withdrawal, pain, etc. I need to pull back and plan A like crazy - he did say he thinks I have been wonderful and amazing - progress, huh??? I think I got reeled in to a friend telling me that he is playing games with me in a conversation yesterday - that he just wants the trappings of marriage, etc. so I started really doubting - but I do feel he is sincere, yet give it more time and time will tell!!! <BR>God bless you all!!! Thank you for being so patient and helpful and allowing my lunatic side to rave!! <BR>A

Dear Annc:<P>Thanks for posting an update !<P>Glad to hear you're taking the trip after all .<P>Enjoy yourselves...forget about everything else and just "float"....<P>Peace, ~Marie

The hardest thing to do is not listen to friends and family. No one really knows what't going on unless they are at your house with your S every day--and if they have never experienced infidelity personally either as a BS or a WS, then they really can't identify. This has been the hardest thing for me b/c all my friends say the same thing. They think I'm completely crazy to love a man who doesn't love me. The same applies to you. Don't let your friends and family put you in a down mood. If they do, stop talking to them. No joke, I don't talk to my mother nearly as much now as I used to. I just get depressed. So, if you absolutely have to talk to someone, come here. That's what we're here for. Have a great time away from things.

Annc,<P>It is good to hear you came down from the ceiling. It seems to me progress is being made. Your H is coming out of the fog and I suspect if you continue Plan A (like for the rest of your life ), he will begin to do the same to you in the coming months.<P>Keep having those talks with your H. It sounds as if he is enjoying the intimacy of them as are you.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Hi,<BR>We got back from our trip yesterday - had a wonderful time!!! It was great to get away and relax! We did not do a lot of "talking"(about any of "this" or future, etc), just hung out. He had said earlier in the week(the night we had the long talk) we would do the EN's questionnaire, yet didn't want to when I suggested it...I did not push, just said OK. We did make love. H was not as "romantic" or as attentive as I had hoped(just as you had said, Kayto - my expectations were probably too high) - ie, didn't comment on my new bathingsuit or outfit, didn't "act" like he wanted to make mad passionate love but I just bit my lip; didn't say anything - tried to remember everyone's good advice. I have to keep in mind that it was a great time, and that it will probably take a long time to return to the "days" when he "was turned on",etc, ie, when he would see me in a bathingsuit he would initiate. Marie, your analogy about the flower is great - and I will try to keep watering away. Did y'all find it hard? did you still continue to wonder if things would be good? did you still wonder about contact with OW? did you have ups and downs? <BR>JL, I am still reading "Men Made Easy" - and want to write down all my thoughts...<BR>L, how are you doing?<BR>I really think y'all are great - can't tell you how much I appreciate your hanging in there with me.<BR>Kids start school this week, and I start a new job on Friday - so, I will have lots to keep me busy and my crazy mind occupied which will be good.<BR>Look forward to hearing from all of you! <BR>God bless - A<BR>

Ok,<BR>This is where my mind plays mean tricks on me. H couldn't find his cell phone this am before leaving for work - was very upset and angry. Well, it was right there in the car - he just didn't see it... so, naturally my suspicions are high - I figure that is how they have been communicating for past couple months because his secretary who has been my ally says no calls or hang-ups that she knows of - so thus the cell phone!! He bought an earplug for it last week - says he is concerned about cancer from the battery...ok, just how much are you talking on it?? I wanted to ask, but didn't!! He was very upset this am - I asked why - would it be that bad to go without for a day?...he said he needs it for people to get in touch with him at work - it hasn't rung all day, and his secretary says he doesn't get many calls on it at all....so naturally, my mind is racing... Also, today is our anniversary, and I know this is awful, but I wonder if I will even get a card - we will see...I won't LB-but due to A, what this has done- destroyed my trust!! I hate being so suspicious - but after finding out they were in touch after he said he ended it in May, it just makes you wonder every little time something doesn't "feel" right. I KNOW I shouldn't do this...<BR>Mondays aren't my "best" days, either...<BR>Later, A

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Annc:<BR><B>H couldn't find his cell phone this am before leaving for work - was very upset and angry. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi Ann!<P>I'm glad to hear things are prtogressing with you! REmember, time is on your side. The memoriesare fading for him, and that will cause him to come out of withdrawal and reignite with you. Don't let your behavior or conversation remind him of the affair! He needs to put it behind him.<P>A few messages back you stated, as a fact, I think, that he is continuing to have contact with the OW. Do you know this? Does he deny it? That is a battle worth fighting...that contact must stop.<P>Mike <P>

Hey, Mike,<BR>So good to hear from you!! How are you?? Are you and your wife making any progress? I hope so!!<P>Well, my H finally sent the no-contact letter a couple of weeks ago, so as far as I know, there is no contact... yet, I didn't think there was contact before, either - found out they had been talking - on cell phone, I suspect, as his secretary had not gotten any calls. H said she called him because she had "surgery" - but, I don't know, I think they may have been talking. So, I hope this time is it - fine(fin-a), over - guess time will tell once again. I do think we are making progress which is good. Just trying to be patient and Plan A.<P>Again, hope you are well - enjoyed hearing from you!<BR>Take care, A<P>JL, Lapeine, Kayto, Marie, Kris, Eyeswideopen,<BR>OK - my ranting and raving last week - should have known!!! PMS!!! Finally, sane (maybe - ha!) again!<BR>Thanks for keeping me in line!!!!<BR>God bless, A

Hey, Mike,<BR>So good to hear from you!! How are you?? Are you and your wife making any progress? I hope so!!<P>Well, my H finally sent the no-contact letter a couple of weeks ago, so as far as I know, there is no contact... yet, I didn't think there was contact before, either - found out they had been talking - on cell phone, I suspect, as his secretary had not gotten any calls. H said she called him because she had "surgery" - but, I don't know, I think they may have been talking. So, I hope this time is it - fine(fin-a), over - guess time will tell once again. I do think we are making progress which is good. Just trying to be patient and Plan A.<P>Again, hope you are well - enjoyed hearing from you!<BR>Take care, A<P>JL, Lapeine, Kayto, Marie, Kris, Eyeswideopen,<BR>OK - my ranting and raving last week - should have known!!! PMS!!! Finally, sane (maybe - ha!) again!<BR>Thanks for keeping me in line!!!!<BR>God bless, A