<BR>I think suckerpunched was right in the post to TMAN. Unless they are completely incapable of rational thought (ie. insane) even before they become involved with the OP, people have affairs because they choose to. Nobody can be "pushed" into having an affair if they don't want to. If they are unhappy, if their "emotional needs" are not being met, they have at least three other choices - they can just suck it up or they can get a divorce, or they can be smart and try to resolve the issues. For that matter, I don't believe that emotional needs are really needs either - they are just wants. You need food and shelter to survive and that is it. Adults have no other needs - just wants. I think most people who have affairs have them because of how they feel about themselves, and the OP makes them feel better, temporarily. One spouse can not singlehandedly keep the other from feeling like a failure, and I doubt the OP can either, in the long run. <P>And the least people can do if they are going to have affairs is to admit that they chose to do it, and not to try to blame someone else for it.<BR>

No argument from me, Nellie...and I'm not trying to be hard on those who failed.<P>But what makes some of us recognize that we're about to make a mistake...and nip it in the bud, and others of us go over the edge? Is it narcissism? Self-delusion? Religious training? Strong "morals" (whatever those are)? Ability to "do without"?<P>I don't know.<P>10 years ago I did the whole "too close with a co-worker" thing. I recognized what was happening, scared myself to death, and got another job. What made me able to do that where someone else couldn't? How come I could recognize it? How was I able to cut it off even though my H was depressed and I was having NO needs at home?<P>I've never once regretted that I nipped it in the bud.<P>

<BR>I think if you boil it all down it comes to ignorance in some form or another. Ignorance of the impact of our actions on others. Ignorance of the impact to ourselves. In short, ignorance of the law of cause and effect: "as ye sow, so shall ye reap."<P>If we could REALLY see the gravity of our actions and experience the consequences of our behaviors as soon as they committed them, they would stop immediately (for all but the worst masochists).<P>Of course narcissistic, childish people are totally unable to connect the dots in this way. There is a word for folks like this: we call them sociopaths and psychopaths. People who lack compassion and empathy for others' feelings, people who value their own feelings so much more than the feelings of others, enough so that they're willing to cause others suffering so long as they get what THEY want.<P>One wise sage once remarked that self-cherishing is the root of all suffering. How true! How true! I have seen this truth proven over and over again in my life. <P>

Dazed,<BR>In my H case, I am almost convinced that it is narcissism. Perhaps my memory is colored by recent events, but I am having trouble remembering a time when my H did not act like nothing I had to say was worthwhile or interesting enough to warrant his paying attention - and he acted only slightly less so with the kids. He has been so wrapped up in himself that nothing else is of any interest to him.<P>suckerpunched,<BR>But I see little evidence that there is any negative impact on themselves, just on others. My H didn't always ignore the feelings of others, but now that he is, he is getting everything he wants.

Nellie,<P>I think that suckerpunched does make a good point. A lot of the pain of infidelity is caused by ignorance.<P>As a person who had an EA over 2 years ago, I will tell you that I never even considered it an "affair" but an infatuation. I felt myself getting sucked in and it just went along until the OM wanted sex and I couldn't do it - loved my H.<P>Think about this - say, a drug addict or cigarette smoker, or alcoholic or gambler...do any of these people think THEY are going to be the one to get addicted???? Does anyone who as they light up the first cigarette ever think about lung cancer, emphysema, and other ravages of smoking???? Does anyone ever see themselves as being the derelict drunken alcoholic when they drink their first drink???/<P>No, I doubt if anyone ever sees or thinks about these things. Same thing for infidelity. I doubt if my H once thought about all the pain and havoc he would be wrecking into my life, the kids' lives, his own life, and even OW's life. No, he never thought about it at all. <P>And, the answer is ...well, he SHOULD have thought about it. Yes, and I should have thought about it before having my EA and those with lung cancer should have thought about it and those alcoholics should have thought about it......<P>Oh, we just don't see ourselves as mean, selfish people who are deliberatly hurting others....yet, our choices do make us that way sometimes. Maybe I am very tolerant....I see all people as human and making mistakes and commiting sins. Yet, I firmly believe our charge in life is to strive to be better and commit ourselves to steps that allow us to grow and BE better people. As humans, that is all we can do.<P>The pain caused to us by our wayward spouses is devastating and reaches so many more than just us. For me, what could make all this better is for my H to see and understand the pain he is causing by his selfish actions and to choose to be a better person, to commit to the steps to grow and to then BECOME a better person.......<P>Roll Me Away<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Roll Me Away (edited December 10, 1999).]

Nellie - I couldn't agree with you more: Needs are really wants. <BR>Also, I do believe it is a bit difficult for many people to identify or to understand the nature of a person like your husband (my husband is almost exactly like yours).<BR>Tragically, your husband is a terrible anomaly: He has absolutey no morals, conscience or consideration for anyone but himself. He uses his children as pawns, not just once in a while, but on a consistent basis. He expresses NO remorse for anything he does. He seems a combination of narcisstic, sociopathic and borderline personality. A simpler word that comes to mind is "evil." If I come off as bitter to others on this board I'm sorry. It's just that I, too, have come face-to-face with this type of personality too many times and I've come to see it for what it is. Unfortunately, so have my children. He is ruining their lives with his malice and cruelty. Nellie, all I can advise you to do is to pray, pray and then pray some more. Teach your kids to do the same. This is simplistic advice but I have found it is the only advice that really works with a mental case like your H.

Just one minor point. My posts were mainly addressing the extreme cases of this sort of stupidity. <P>Nellie, I have been appalled reading your posts about the cruelty you've had to endure. Appalled. It makes me feel so incredibly sad to read everything that's happenening. And the whole Nicole/Arik thing too. Hell, almost ALL the stories here.<P>RMA: I agree with your "addiction" theory. In fact, what many neuroscientists now believe is behind this craziness is the drug phenylethylamine, the so-called "love drug." I know this drug firsthand, having experienced its effects on a couple of (non-affair) occasions. The fact is this drug is in the same chemical family (phenethylamine) as "speed" and "ecstasy" (MDMA) and even the powerful psychedelic drug mescaline (found in the peyote cactus)! <P><BR>

Nellie - Don't you wish you could just take the kids and get away from him once and for all? But then what? I know! Your H would then make it his life's mission to pursue you and those kids. He (like my H) has a real need (but unfortunately it's a sick need) and that is to torment and torture you.

MovingOn,<BR>Yes, sometimes I wish I could move to across the country and he would just disappear from their lives. Sometimes I envy those people who can do just that - unfortunately in this state, it is difficult to move out of state without the non-custodial parent's permission. <P>Perhaps the worst part is seeing his tranformation into evil - I am absolutely sure he wasn't always like that. It is sort of like dealing with someone in the midst of a heated argument, when they say or do things they wouldn't normally, but he has been like that almost constantly for 9 months.<P>suckerpunched,<BR>I am appalled by the stories I read here as well. On the one hand I guess it is good to know that one is not alone, but the fact that this is so widespread is extremely depressing.<P>I find the concept of a neurological basis for their behavior very interesting - maybe because I keep trying to understand something that is so difficult to comprehend. I often wonder whether the brains of people who succumb to affairs are somehow chemically similar to those who are likely to become addicted to drugs. I have never been able to understand why anyone would want to feel "high" - I have never been able to understand why that would be a good feeling. Even though I was a teenager during the late sixties/early seventies, I was never even tempted to take drugs, nor did I ever drink. Or skydive or anything else that causes an "adrenaline rush". I have always felt best when I felt at peace, more or less the opposite sensation.<P>Roll Me Away,<BR>All my H would have to do is show remorse and I could forgive him, but I do not remember him ever saying he was sorry for anything he has ever done, except for things that are accidental, like breaking something. He has never apologized for hurting my feelings that I can remember.

<BR>Nellie, yes, I think that our wiring makes us susceptible to certain types of behavior. As you noted, some people are heedless thrill-seekers looking for a high. This is theorized to be caused by a deficiency in the neurotransmitter dopamine -- the "pleasure" neurotransmitter, if one chooses to view this from a physiological basis. A dopmaine deficiency sets people off on addictive runs. Crack and amphetamine users are a perfect example of this effect. Cocaine (and amphetamines, again, in the same chemical family as the "love drug") deplete dopamine VERY quickly in the brain (which is what gives it its pleasurable effects), and the problem is that burned off dopamine takes a long time to replace, so when the cocaine high wears off, one MUST find more immediately or feel extreme mental distress -- often leading to extremely negative emotional states including suicidal ideation.<P>So I think the "withdrawal" analogy vis-a-vis OP's is correct. This feeling definitely has a basis in physiology. However, I think it's important to distinguish between CORRELATION and CAUSATION here. I think it would be a mistake to blame an affair on the "chemicals made me do it" (which is just an old rehash of "the devil made me do it" argument, which doesn't wash by me). <P>Inasmuch as some people are naturally low on certain neurotransmitters it is likely that they will engage in behaviors that boost those neurotransmitters, no matter how temporary the pleasure is, which is the same principle behind ANY desire by an addict for his or her fix.<P>But to say that neurotransmitters ALONE are behind everything is also wrong. Neurotransmitters and brain functions respond DIRECTLY to the sorts of thoughts we have. It is the nature and manner of thinking that etches patterns in our wiring (this is called Long Term Potentiation by neuroscientists -- it's how we are able to remember things). So this is a feeback loop, the thoughts we have affecting our neurons and the neurons in turn affecting our thinking process. However, without getting into that nature vs. nurture, free will vs. kismet argument, let me just state that I believe there is ALWAYS a volitional component to our actions, no matter how condited we are by our chemistry and wiring. <P>So on one hand I think it's our wiring that gives us our tendencies and disposition, but there is STILL a component of choice in how we ACT on those signals we're getting from our brains.<P>

suckerpunched,<BR>Do you have references for further info on this topic? I don't recall it being discussed in my physiological psych textbook - but it has been 20 years.<P>My H said, the day he told me he didn't love me anymore and wanted a divorce, that he had been feeling that way for "weeks, maybe months", that you can't help your emotions - apparently he was of the opinion that he not only couldn't help how he felt, but he also couldn't help how he acted. <P>One of the many things I worry about is that one of our kids seems to be a thrill seeker already - she was upset because they didn't let six year olds go on Space Mountain by themselves. I doubt that there is an easy way to measure dopamine levels in the brain to diagnose deficiency.