I am getting tired of reading things like:<P>"The kids are better off without constant tension/arguing" - well, duh, so are the parents - but the conflict is almost always a result of one person having an affair, possibly undisclosed, and the resultant cruel treatment and deception by the betrayer, and the frustration and feeling of life falling apart on the part of the betrayed. <P>"Don't ever criticize the other parent, because kids will think you are criticizing them, because the parent is part of them." I have discussed this with my older kids (13-19), and they think that that is ridiculous. I certainly never felt any guilt or responsibility for my parents faults - my kids'faults, maybe, but I had nothing to do with my parents faults. My kids do not feel any responsibility for their fathers faults, or for mine. My oldest two especially get really annoyed if I say anything that they think is making excuses for my H.<P>"Kids should be shielded from the fact that their parent is having an affair. They should be encouraged to respect the parent". My son told me that the worse thing parents could do was to keep secrets from the kids. My H never told the kids that he had been married before. My kids, at least, don't want to be treated like mushrooms. My 17 year old was upset with me because I didn't tell her about my suspicions that my H was having an affair before he left. I sure don't want my kids to feel that I lied to them too.<P>I am feeling so guilty that I haven't told the 10 and 7 year old about their father's affair - they think he started seeing her about a month or so after he left, which is bad enough of course. I worry that when they find out they are going to be angry at me.<P>As I was typing this, I got an email from my H, saying that S had told him he didn't have a winter jacket, and what was I planning on doing about it. S does have a winter jacket- it just wasn't where he last saw it. What the H*** does he think I was going to do, let S go out in the snow in shirtsleeves? I am so tired of the man who a year ago paid no attention to the details of having children suddenly start harassing me. This man who when he was responsible for putting our oldest daughter on the bus for Kindergarten since I left for work before she awoke, apparently never brushed her hair and caused me to be terribly embarassed when her teacher asked him to send a brush so she could do it, now gets all upset if there is a miniscule spot of dirt on their clothing. The man who rarely took a shower more than twice a week while we were milking cows, who could eat a sandwich in the barn, has suddenly become obsessed with everything being perfect. I send perfectly good clothes with the kids; she goes out and buys them new ones. Wouldn't want to embarrass the OW, would we.<P>Sorry - that last paragraph didn't have much to do with the topic.<P>

Nellie1,<P>Saw your post on the other thread and can feel your anger. And that's saying something since I don't take hints very well.<P>Our kids are brighter than we think. They know what the score is. We don't have to tell them.<P>The E-mail didn't have anything to do with your S winter jacket. It had to do with you guys.<P>I believe there are problems in Fantasyland.<P>Lastly, vent as much as you like. We know what it's like and will always be here for you.<BR><P>------------------<BR>"It's not over till we say it's over! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? H*ll no!" Blutto...Animal House 1984<P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Medic<P>

Nellie,<P>I think you have to find the line between telling kids what they need to know and telling them way too much. Medic is right that they know a lot more than you think they do. And if kids don't get a feeling of their self worth from their parents then where do they get it? Especialy little kids? I know you don't want to hear it but your H's actions and affair is having an effect on your kids and is making them feel worse about themselves and you must try not to add to it. You can't expect a 13 year old to be able to tell you whether or not its really making them feel better or worse about themself! A child can't understand themself that way! I don't think you have to make excuses for your H or critcize him either. Why do you have to talk to the kids about him at all? You really need to stop doing that. When I had a terrible problem with my XH and he behaved just as bad as yours is I just didn't even talk about it. If they asked me a question I answered but I didn't bring it up. I know you are angry because I was really angry too. He tried to tell me what to do with the kids even though he had destroyed our lives and we had nothing because of him. I was living in an apartment with my kids and working all the time (2 jobs) and he was living with a different stripper every other week and acting like the big guy in town. It was hard not to say things to the kids. Believe me! But if they didn't ask I didn't put their father talk, and I didn't put their father down. You say you are afraid your two youngest will be mad at you when they learn the truth. I really think you don't have to worry about that. Have you lied to them? No you haven't. If they ask you about when their Dad started seeing the OW then answer them. But why would you tell them when they havent even asked? Don't lie to them but don't tell little children what they just don't need to know. If they want to know more, they will ask you. Leave them alone otherwise. They are not your friends or your friendly ears. They are your children and this is their father and it is confusing and bad enough for them as it is. He is your husband and your anger is different because of how he has betrayed and hurt you. Yes this is all their fathers fault. But don't add to their pain. Just don't talk about it with them unless they ask you questions and want to talk about it. Just don't bring it up with any of them, even the oldest ones unless you have to. The youngest ones must want to love their father and they must want to because they need to. Why try and destroy that when they need it so much? Don't use the children to punish your H. He deserves it but they don't.<P>Del

Delphi,<BR>How can you say that a children are aware of more than one thinks, and then say they don't understand themselves well enough to know whether what there father does has an influence on how they feel about themselves? I don't believe kids get their self-esteem from their parents - children get their self-esteem by becoming competent, good, caring people. That is why those self-esteem building courses in school don't work - you don't get self-esteem from someone telling you you are worthwhile - you get self-esteem from doing things that prove to yourself you are worthwhile.<P>What my son, especially, complains about most if that his father is not willing to talk about anything important with him. With him, the kids are well aware that anything to do with the OW is taboo, that anything having to do with feelings is taboo. My kids can and do talk to me about anything, and I am never going to make them feel that any topic is off-limits. Kids are very aware when parents are reluctant to discuss certain topics, and I am not going to have my kids feel that I am reluctant to discuss their father, or anything else. My parents rarely kept secrets from me, and I am not going to keep secrets from my kids. When I was a child I wanted to know what was going on at all times - for instance I understand that a lot of kids don't know anything about their parents finances - I started helping to do my parents' income tax when I was 14 - I didn't want to be somehow "protected" and I am not going to do that to my kids.<P>How could I avoid talking to my oldest, for example, when he sends her copies of the emails in which he is threatening to refuse to sign her financial aid forms if I don't sign a settlement agreement first? I have never told them that they shouldn't love their father, and I have tried to encourage the little ones having a close relationship with him. The older two have tried very hard to convince me that I should dump him as fast as possible, and that he does not have a moral bone in his body. <P>I have rarely done anything that I would not be willing to tell my kids about, even if it was a mistake. If it is so bad that it would make your kids think poorly of you, you shouldn't do it.<P>Medic,<BR>Yes, I am angry. I think he overdrew my love bank account when he got mad at me for offering to pay off some of our debt, a few weeks after he had enthusiastically accepted the offer. Even his own atty doesn't understand him. <P>Thanks for listening to me vent.

Nellie,<BR>I had to go to a "For the Children" seminar for divorcing parents. It was a 2.5 hr seminar.They showed a couple videos and it was pretty good overall.<P>One thing they covered was harmful "games" we parents can play with the kids during/after the divorce:<P>poison: objiect is for one parent to try to poison the child's ideas and feelings toward the other.<P>Scapegoat: pour out all the anger and frustration of the marriage on the child (sounds like your h!)<P>messenger: use the children as a homing pigeon.<P>spy: have children gather info about the other aprent and report back (my temptation!)<P>weapon: use teh child as an instrument to punish other parent (sounds like your h again)<P>substitute: parent uses child as a substitute partner or adult friend.<P>Saanta Claus: parent buys child everything he or she wants to rid themselves of any guilt about the divorce (thsi is my stbx!)<P>Reason for these games is unresolved anger and insecurities.

Nellie,<P>We will just have to disagree but I have been through this the hard way and I have seen what an effect it does have on children and how they feel worse as a person if they have a parent that behaves badly. So I still feel that good self esteem just doesn't happen to kids and I do firmly believe that putting down a parent by the other parent is one of the worst things you can do to children. If all the child therapists say this, there must be something to it. And what happened to me showed me that there is something to it. Yes, your H sent those emails and upset your child and so of course they come to you and want to discuss it. That is a good thing. My point is that there is no reason at all to go to them and tell them things that they have not asked about. I also to some degree feel that you should not be discussing with the older two whether you should take your H back or not if he wanted to come back. This is your marriage here and these older ones will soon be out of the house. There has to be a line somewhere between what is talked about between parent and child and what is talked about between marriage partners. I agree with you that no one should do anything they would be ashamed to tell their children about. But your kids do know what is going on. The younger two hear the older ones talk. They hear you talk to him and to the older ones. They know just what is going on. And even though they know that it is still to painful for them to deal with it. They still want to be with their Dad! They are children and even though their Dad has done a horrible thing, they love him! Believe me they know, and they don't think he just met her a month ago. They just don't want to deal with it right now and I don't think you should force it on them when they have not even asked. If they ask then tell them what they ask.<P>But I think we have different views of how to handle these things. I felt that I couldn't control the way my XH was acting but I could be a good example myself and that is what I tried to do. I didn't have to say he was a jerk to them. They already knew it. They dealt with it when they were ready to. So we will just have to say we disagree on this issue. I don't think I have anything else to offer you that might help your pain with this situation because I don't think my own experience helps you. <P>Del

Nellie,<P>We will just have to disagree but I have been through this the hard way and I have seen what an effect it does have on children and how they feel worse as a person if they have a parent that behaves badly. So I still feel that good self esteem just doesn't happen to kids and I do firmly believe that putting down a parent by the other parent is one of the worst things you can do to children. If all the child therapists say this, there must be something to it. And what happened to me showed me that there is something to it. Yes, your H sent those emails and upset your child and so of course they come to you and want to discuss it. That is a good thing. My point is that there is no reason at all to go to them and tell them things that they have not asked about. I also to some degree feel that you should not be discussing with the older two whether you should take your H back or not if he wanted to come back. This is your marriage here and these older ones will soon be out of the house. There has to be a line somewhere between what is talked about between parent and child and what is talked about between marriage partners. I agree with you that no one should do anything they would be ashamed to tell their children about. But your kids do know what is going on. The younger two hear the older ones talk. They hear you talk to him and to the older ones. They know just what is going on. And even though they know that it is still to painful for them to deal with it. They still want to be with their Dad! They are children and even though their Dad has done a horrible thing, they love him! Believe me they know, and they don't think he just met her a month ago. They just don't want to deal with it right now and I don't think you should force it on them when they have not even asked. If they ask then tell them what they ask.<P>But I think we have different views of how to handle these things. I felt that I couldn't control the way my XH was acting but I could be a good example myself and that is what I tried to do. I didn't have to say he was a jerk to them. They already knew it. They dealt with it when they were ready to and they had to decide when that was. I don't think I have anything else to offer you that might help your pain with this situation because I don't think my own experience helps you. We just look at this different ways. I know you will do what you think is best for your children because I can tell you love them very much.<P>Del

Nellie - I can understand how you are feeling and I've got to admit that the same things crossed my mind at one time or another when my first marriage ended.<P>I have never lied to my daughter. I have answered her questions truthfully and honestly, even about my younger days - and there were definitely things there that were uncomfortable. <P>After my first h and I split, I never, not once complained about him around her. Nor would I allow anyone else to do it. I never put him down or criticized him, I assured her of his love for her even when he let her down. Just told her he wasn't capable of showing her right then.<P>Why? To be honest, upon the advice of the counsellor. Someone with more experience dealing with that PARTICULAR situation than I had.<P>I never argued with him in front of her. Never, not once. I was pleasant and amiable. I made sure that I invited him to anything special that had to do with her. In fact, until last year, he has been a guest in my home for Christmas morning every year since we separated. And I made those times as warm and happy and relaxed as humanly possible. I encouraged her to visit her father, I rearranged my schedule to accomodate the louse. Cheerfully. I reminded her of special days, took her shopping to get him gifts, encouraged a phone call here and there when he didn't call her. And I hated it. But she NEVER knew that. When she left to spend the weekend with him, I cried the moment they drove away. But she never saw it, because I kissed her goodbye with a smile and told her to have fun. Because I love her. <P>After a year or so, he became engaged. And I welcomed this woman into my home (who btw was a wonderful person, they didn't marry, but we're still friends) when he visited. I wouldn't have at first, but after that I did. <P>H did the opposite. He told my little one that I had broken up our family (because I left him for abuse). He told her all sorts of things, used her to vent and complain.<P>The result. She's fifteen now. She actually brought it up a year or so ago. Thanked me. For respecting HER enough at the age when I really could control her, to allow her to try to remain close to her father. She eventually asked - and was told - everything. She wanted me to know she appreciated my not acting "like dad did". But she asked when she was ready to hear, in stages, bits and pieces, and I told her in love, with respect for the man who was her father (even when I didn't FEEL any), without judgements, without crying, without anger and so without soliciting her loyalty. I even made a point of trying to help her understand the facts of addiction (he was an alcoholic) and emotional shortcomings. She has an amiable relationship with her father. She and I absolutely adore each other. <P>She's a great kid. Except for the big [censored] she pulled to try to get step-father home, she's never in trouble. She's compassionate, respectful, responsible and understanding. She has an amazing sense of self. Beautiful, talented, an honor student with aspirations of being a vet. Yeah, I'm bragging. She's terrific. Mostly because of who she is. <P>I have to say, Nellie. From my experience anyway, that counsellor was right on target. Hiding my hurt, my bitterness, my anger from my child at that time was the smartest thing I could do. Not hiding the truth, hiding MY reactions and judgements of it. I do believe that when some of us are saying the things you quoted above - I'll speak for myself anyway - THIS is what we mean. The truth is always right. But judgements and anger and bitterness are adult issues, between the adults, and the children should NOT have to deal with those things. It does, without a doubt, force loyalties. But the thing is, those loyalties could change. The truth should never be used to "show" a child that a parent was wrong. It's not fair to the child.<P>I have a friend right now who, at 37, is finally experiencing the anger and resentment for the mother who loved and raised her because of the things she said about her father. She is developing a relationship with that father (who BTW tries to make her UNDERSTAND how her mother's hurt THAT HE CAUSED caused those actions) and is having great difficulty forgiving her mother. Her mother's anger transferred to this person as a child, and she wanted nothing to do with her dad when she was really too young to decide that herself. Now she sees (with counselling - to try to bring her and her mom back together) that HER anger then was just a protectiveness toward her mom. A child should NEVER have to feel protective for a parent. But a child will, if they see us hurt and angry. They just will.<P>So, I agree with you. Telling the truth is a must. Telling the truth so that our children will understand how WE feel and will understand that what the other spouse is doing is BAD or WRONG, is not. And I don't think healthy.<P>Our children learn from us. And you're right, they may not understand everything and they do think about things much differently - probably why so many kids think divorce is because of something they've done, no matter how many times you tell them it's not. But they have an uncanny sense of right and wrong. They know. They figure things out. <P>This is a personal observation. I believe that, no matter what a spouse has done (OK, we'll knock out child abuse, etc), the CHILD deserves for both parents to try to give them the best relationship with the other that they possibly can. In other words, my close relationship with d has the most influence - then and now - on her. It is my responsibility, if I love her, to nurture not only my relationship with her, but her father's as well. It is in her best interest. <P>It's a tough place to be, Nellie. You're such a good and devoted mom. And you've been through so much. But I do worry sometimes. 'Cause even though I don't think you should protect your h, I really believe it might be best for them for you to protect your children's relationship with him. I know I didn't say that well, maybe you'll understand. <P>My 2 cents.<P>Lori<BR>

Nellie, this is not to put down your parenting skills, nor is it disagreeing with you, because as you know, I often agree with you.<P>It is SO IMPORTANT not to put your kids in the middle of this awful situation with your H. Hard, I know, but important.<P>My father left when I was 11. There was no OW, he just was miserable living with my mother. In my case, life was better in many ways after he was gone, because my mother wasn't as tense. HOWEVER, I became a pawn in her bitterness. Every time I'd see my father, she'd demand to know everything he said. Everything. Every word. It was like an interrogation in a banana republic, I kid you not. Everything he bought for us, every movie he took us to, everything he did made her angry. I spent the rest of my childhood feeling torn, until I became an adult, went through years of therapy, and told her I wouldn't put up with it any more.<P>Are you in counseling yet? If not, I HIGHLY recommend that you do so. Your anger is justifiable; your H is being a world-class jerk. But the anger is poisoning you.<P>Please...get some help; for yourself and your kids.

This is without a doubt the most difficult aspect of an affair where there are children involved.<P>To a large extent we are very good at teaching them right or wrong as parents because we tend to have a set of agreed values as parents that can be explained to them when they stray off the accepted track.<P>To an even larger extent they observe the values of their parents and follow them as a guide.<P>What then when you have such a conflict in the family as an affair where obviously both parents are at extremes in their acccepted values, with the affair partner in the midst of an addiction, and the resultant clouded view. What if the betrayer also has custody. All in all a very difficult situation!<P>I have a D in just that situation, who until this happened, I was more than pleased with her personal development and values. Already I see huge changes in her as she grasps for information and struggles to cope with what has happened. If parents can't agree on what is right and what is wrong what hope has the child got. <P>I honestly believe this will have a drastic effect on her in the short term (at least 2 yrs).<P>She is extremely intelligent and asks questions in a type of game environment in front of both my W and I when we are together. It is really difficult for us when she does this, imagine how difficult it is for her.<P>Ironically, her mother was mostly responsible for her balanced personality and values until this happened. Her mother is a remarkable women and I have always admired how she has developed our daughter's value system, that is up until now. I work away quite a lot.<P>I don't know what the answer is. Some of you may have read the posts in "How much should i tell my daughter?" There were equally conflicting views there.<P>There are also conflicting views even in what you read in the test books. Apparently it is an accepeted fact that children of adulterous parents are more likely to have affairs themselves later in life. Given the way they learn their values I guess this would be expected.<P>Perhaps that is why monogamous relationships have beeen so protected by law over the many centuries as it is a situation that children should never be exposed to.<P>Having said all that I personally believe you should tell the child as much as you believe they can deal with and obviously with no value judgements. They will unfortunately (for them) have to come to terms with where it sits on their sense of values because that is something the parents can't agree on.<P>Regards<BR>Fairenough<BR> <P> <P>

I don't have time to respond individually right now, but I feel strongly that just because many counselors say X doesn't make it right. For many years child "experts" said you should let your child cry himself to sleep, you shouldn't hold them to much - and I think they are wrong, too.<P>I think pretending to feel something different from what you do is lying to your children just as much as saying something that is not true. In my house, everyone is allowed to express whatever they feel, to criticize whomever they want to, including their parents and other adults (and they do). No one has to pretend anything; there are no topics that they have to avoid. And I have never met a family whose children are closer to each other than are mine. Feeling free to express their opinions has nothing to do with love - my children have learned that people can be angry at each other, that they can believe that what someone else is doing is wrong, and still love them. They know I love their father; I encourage them to love their father and remain close to him. But if someone, no matter who it is, does something that I believe is wrong, whether it is their father, their sister, or a complete stranger, it would be shirking my duty as a parent who wants to raise the children with decent values to ignore it.

Nellie1,<P>I agree, there needs to be honesty in dealing with children. I also agree that something isn't true or right just because "experts" says something or writes it in a book. At one time "experts" were in agreement that the earth was flat and that the sun revolved around the earth. There are also many "expert" marriage counselors that say you shouldn't tell your spouse about an affair unless you are caught and absolutely have to. These same "experts" often guide people toward separation and divorce rather than reconciliation. Be careful of "expert" opinion.<P>I suggest you read an article on this web site found at: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_lesson.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_lesson.html</A> <P>I've always felt it would be best if both parents would speak to the children together and tell them what is going on rather than them having guess or hear half-truths from others.<P>Good luck.

I read the article and I think it gives very good advice but it doesn't really say how someone like myself or Nellie is supposed to deal with a spouse who has left and is leading an immoral life.

I forgot to say that Dr. Harley is an expert and we are listening to him, right? I think we all feel the need to listen to experts now and then. If you didn't it would be like refusing to listen to a doctor when you were sick. If you are really sick you need to get more than one opinion, but you still need to listen to someone.

I never told my 9 yo anything about om being his mothers lover, he was at first a room mate and then a friend. When I took my son to counseling, the counselor asked him if he knew what a half and step siblings were and he said yes that was when your parent remarried. She then asked him if his parents would remarry and he said yes, his mother would marry her roomamate, er boyfriend, so he knew what was going on without anyone telling him.<P>I did tell my 12 yo daughter her mother was committing adultery in fit of anger after my stbx told her that I was trying to keep them apart. She did tell my stbx that she was committing adultery. I don't know what her reply was.<P>The video I saw last nite was "Don't Divorce the Children" They have it availble at our local libraries so it may be at yours too.

Nellie is in an impossible situation and frankly, so am I. There are diverse needs that need to be balanced:<P>- demonstrating the value of honesty.<BR>- respect for the children's intelligence.<BR>- development of children's value system.<BR>- maintaining the children's love of both parents.<BR>- assuring the ongoing security of the remaining household.<P>To do all of this, while a spouse has abandoned six children to move in with an OW while blaming it on Nellie, is literally impossible. None of us are perfect, but I have tremendous respect for the way Nellie has handled this, despite her personal trauma.<P>In my opinion, my situation is nearly as bad. My husband abandoned me, our six YO son and a two month old daughter, blamed it all on me, only to find out later that he also ran to an OW. While he doesn't demonstrate anger, he also refuses to make a decision and blames me for the entire situation. He takes no responsibility for the children and after a 15 month situation, our now toddler doesn't even know her daddy. He hasn't even seen her once during the last month and obviously doesn't love her.<P>I cannot, in good conscience, allow my son to think this behavior is OK. You never, never abandon a child no matter what. There are lessons about values that get transferred to the kids and someone has to parent here.<P>On the other hand, there is no need to bash their father, and I don't. I do say what he's doing is wrong. I also say I love him and encourage our son to love him. I do not take the blame for his walking out and have said in the past that I would like to get back together and work things out. I don't talk about the affair and my son doesn't know about that (but suspects). But I go out of my way to make sure my son sees his father and I say may complimentary things about him.<P>It is an impossible balancing act. We are all human and make mistakes in the process. But the children are not stupid. We don't have to draw all the conclusions for them, but I'll be damned if I'll allow my son to conclude that abandoning a newborn is an OK thing to do.<P>

Distressed,<BR>I think you did a wonderful job summing up the issues involved in this. One of my worse fears is that the children are going to grow up thinking that abandonment of children and infidelity are somehow acceptable. I have told my kids that I would want to reconcile. It breaks my heart when my son says that he would welcome his father back with open arms if he would be willing to return. When we talk about the past, I often mention pleasant things related to their father; they know I loved and admired him - but I feel like we are discussing a loved one who died, who doesn't exist anymore except in our memories.<P>RWD,<BR>I guess my 13 year old was more naive. He actually believed that the OW was a "friend" until his older sister disabused him of that notion.<P>Delphi,<BR>It can be helpful to seek out advice from "experts", but not if their values differ from what you think is right.<P>TCL,<BR>I think most therapists were trained to emphasize "personal growth" or "individuation" rather than conscience, commitment, or cooperation.<P>fairenough,<BR>I think that it is a tragedy that adultery is more common in children whose parent(s) were adulterous, but not terribly surprising. I think there has been far to much abdication of the responsiblity to teach values to children - it is not the job of the school; it is the job of the parents - obviously it is important to marry someone who shares your values. I wish I had known how easy it is for someone to throw their values away when it is convenient.<P>lostva,<BR>I can only speak from my own experience. My parents (not divorced) certainly criticized each other to me on a number of occasions, and I never thought that it was a reflection on me. If they disagreed, I often had an opinion and I never hesitated to tell them which one I thought was wrong. I often gave them advice, whether they wanted it or not - not that they necessarily followed it. My kids have always done the same thing, even while my H was here. The younger four kids love my H, and I don't discourage that. But you can love someone and still disapprove of his actions - I think that is a very important concept for children to learn.<P>Dazed,<BR>I realize the situation was somewhat different because my parents were still together, but I never felt torn between them when they disagreed - I willingly took sides, changing loyalties depending on whom I thought was right in that given argument. But I never stopped loving the parent who was "wrong" not matter how much of a jerk I thought they were at the time.<p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited December 10, 1999).]

In that seminar I went to last nite, they said the average Americam couple used to have 2.6 children.<P>Now American children have 2.6 parents!<P>How sad.