well, my friends, so much has happened in past week or so, and I haven't been on here.<BR>Yet, there is so much, and I am worn out - not a good night - so think I will wait and write it all in the morning - I am in bad need of advice which I will share in am; things are not good and I have serious doubts that this marriage can be saved...and doubts about whether I want to save it...<BR>Later, A

Annc,<P>I am sorry to hear this. I'll talk with you in the morning. <P>God Night,<P>JL

Hi,<BR>I haven't posted since last week when our oldest D packed her bags and left - I was a wreck all that night - so, would you believe I did something stupid??? Ha! Not me - I have been so upset with OW for involving my children and letting them know about A... so I sent her an email to the effect that "the tragedy and pain in this whole mess is that she involved my children and that they are very hurt and having a tough time. How would she feel if her children knew? and that if she ever contacts H again, I will share the info I have with her H." WEll, D returned - found her the following a.m. asleep in guest room. Then I received an email from OW that night saying " go ahead, contact my H - here is his email address and phone #; we are very much in love - sorry to disappoint. He has been reading the emails and you look very stupid, and he is about 2 min. from showing up your doorstep!!" I answered that her H was welcome on our doorstep, that I have done nothing wrong or to be ashamed of... About an hour later, our younger D tells me there is a message from a policeman in the area "where that woman lives" and I am to call him... He tells me that OW has reported that I am sending her threatening emails and making harrassing phone calls!!!! Have never called the b...!!!!!ever!!!! Well, I proceeded to tell him it was a lie, and that if anyone made harrassing phonecalls, she did, etc.Then she proceeded to im me when D was at computer saying she is "sorry your children are hurt" - ha! Well, my H got very angry with me - I told him verbatim what was in my email, (I had unfortunately deleted it) - he kept saying, well you must have threatened her for her to call the police!!!! So, she comes out smelling like a rose, am I am a bad person - she's good!!<BR>Well, am not happy that he defended her. And, the following day, I took eldest D to my counselor, and of course she is angry and having a hard time dealing with A - hates her dad! <BR>We had set an appointment to do EN survey, again, this past weekend - of course H backed out. So, this all came to a head again last night - eldest D let fly on her Dad - brought up the A, "some role model you are" she screamed, and etc, etc - then she said and "if my H ever does this to me, I am kicking him out. Mom is so weak and so stupid. I hate you, etc..." Are we having fun yet???? WEll, H yelled back at her - got angry, said it's in the past, let it be...called her some names, etc - it was awful!!! I tried to talk to him later -"you can't scream at her and get angry - she is hurting; we all need help - you can't just act like it never happened!" So, he gets angry with me - I won't let it go, he doesn't think this will work, etc. I said that he made this mess and he needs to do whatever it takes to clean it up - if that means answering my questions so that I can stop the wild images in my head,then he needs to answer them, and honestly. He said that is in the past and he refuses to discuss it, that I don't need to know. And , I said that he keeps promising to do EN survey and follow some of Harley's guidelines, etc - he said Harley isn't part of our marriage and doesn't know what he is talking about!!! I said that he has OW to blame for our D's pain - how could he have continued to be nice to her and want to see her(remember incident in July...) - to which he replied that he doesn't know she called here!!!!!!!! OK - that really made me angry!!! I said why are you protecting and defending that ....!!!????? You believe her, and not me!!! How do you think I found out about this ....A!!!! I had no clue til she called and asked for you and hung up - and she did it 3-4 times a day for 2-3 weeks, and call tracing traced it to her work!!!!!! It just got worse - he is in such denial - says he will not discuss anything with me - refuses counseling. Said he finally got tested(forgot to tell y'all this) last Friday, JUST for me - that he didn't see the need to!!!! He also yelled that I have turned back into "my old self" and that I am to blame for his A!!!! that I even apologized for my part in it!!! OK, now he can throw entire blame on me!! I slept on couch....<BR>I guess I have hit the anger stage - being all nice, not kicking him out, giving him cards, love notes - showering him with attention ---- where has it gotten me??? He just thinks we can forget it all happened and "move on"!! that we don't need to do anything!!!! I don't see where plan a accomplished anything but make me feel like a doormat - it is all on his terms: I have been all nice and loving - he has not given me a card, flowers - NADA!! - and I am not the one who had the A!!!<BR>This is going nowhere fast - and I don't know how much more I can take - getting it from all sides....<BR>Harley says WS needs to answer any questions and do what it takes to repair and work on m - my H doesn't want to do jack!!! just "forget and move on" - <BR>I give...<BR>Sorry to be so down - this is not FUN!!!<BR>A

Annc,<P>Please...<BR>...do catch your breath... <P>You know you are still loved here... <P>Ok...<BR>...now...<P>You may be near the point of a Plan B...<BR>Can that happen when your H thinks he is in a recovery?... yep!...<P>But until you are there...<BR>...you really need to continue Plan A!<P>Do the Plan A type of activities...<BR>...improve on yourself... (no expectations of him improving)...<BR>...<B>while you consider if Plan B is right for you</B>...<P>Draft that Plan B letter...<BR>...I drafted mine 2 months into my Plan A...<BR>...but I never gave it to my W... and I still continue in Plan A... 11 months now!<BR>...divorce <B>will</B> happen Oct 10th!<P>See if you can come up with a "no contact" lifestyle...<BR>...if you can't (for the immediate future)... it's OK...<BR>...keep on plugging with Plan A...<BR>...<B>only YOU will know</B>... when a practical Plan B can be implemented.<P>I'd also say...<BR>...stay with the Harley counseling...<BR>...stay with anti-deps (if applicable)...<BR>...stay on a course of faith renewal...<P>We're with you on this...<BR>...the pain is inredible... and seems to be so unceasing...<P>Prayers...<P> <P>Jim

Ann, I am so sorry your H is reacting this way. Unfortunately, it seems that there are some spouses who are very, very reluctant to own up to their part of things. Certainly, while you can do your part, at some time he must take some responsibility and do his part in order for rebuilding to take place.<P>I think NSR is probably on-target...continue to Plan A, while making preparations for Plan B. Read up on Plan B...it's goal as I understand it is to separate from the WS in order to preserve your sanity and feelings for him, until such time as he can and will commit to the marraige and a plan to rebuild together.<P>Meanwhile, you might consider a counseling session or two for yourself with one of the Harleys...before you go to Plan B you want to be sure your Plan A has been as effective as possible, and they might help you evaluate any "tweaks" that might be indicated in that regard.<P>Hugs--<P>Kathi

AnnC,<P>I am sitting here laughing my a_s off. Doormat, does the word Doormat mean anything to you? All I can say from reading this post is you are anything but a Doormat. <P>Listen to NSR and Kathi, calm down. Get some tea or beverage of your choice. And come back...<P>Now, your H is showing all of the signs of guilt. Yeah, he really may be feeling guilt, I know it is tough to believe. So when you attack a guilty person, what do they do? They get angry, the make lots of noise, they say incredibly stupid things. In short they act like the have had a Cranial Transplant, and you know it is hard to think with ones brains lodged so tightly. <P>Think about what NSR has said about Plan B, but also think about this. Everytime you contact OW you bring her back into your family. You give her power over you and your H. Everytime.<P>Your problems are not with that woman, whatever she has done, she has done. Your problems are with your D and your H. Now, if things keep getting pushed you will be forced to make a choice between them, and that is not a good choice. You cannot really win on that one.<P>So what to do? First, after your H calms way down and you calm way down. You two, as the parents, need to have a long talk about your D. What are you two going to do to help that girl? And I mean the both of you, not just H, and not just you. You both need to act like grownups and put this child first. And believe me she is still a child, maybe in a womans body but she is a child.<P>You and H is going to have to recognize that girls immulate their mothers and idolize their fathers. With that in mind, how are the two of you going to repair your respective damage?<P>Do this before you worry about the marriage. Use the POJA on this topic, come up with a plan for the both of you. And then do it. Your D is very bothered by all of this on top of the usual teenager stuff. So fix this as best you can. You and H need to act like the grown ups here, and talk with her, apologize to her, help her see some good in life, not just cheating, yelling, crying, door slamming, whatever.<P>Once you two get together on helping your D, then think about your marriage. It is crucially important that you two are a team right now. On the same page, with a consistent message to your D.<P>Think about this.<P>God Bless You and Your Family,<P>JL

Annc - I know just how you feel and my husband left last night which he has been itching to do. I knew if I gave him even the slightest provocation he would be out the door. I did Plan A, I tried and tried but if he is not ready what can I do? I am moving to plan B. Maybe he really does need to get off on his own and really see the ramifications of what it will be. If not I am prepared but not happy to continue with plan B. My thought are with you. <P> Kris

Hi, everyone,<BR>Thank you for your good advice and replies:<BR>NSR and Kathi: think that I will start to think about Plan B - NSR, what did you mean by "start planning a no contact lifestyle?"<P>Is H wrong in thinking we can just "forget it" and move on???? I feel as if he is trying major avoidance, and not dealing with it. My counselor today said that I need to determine what I want and need in this marriage - that it it doesn't sound like I am getting much of anything... that I need to let H know how much it hurts when he defends OW, etc. I can't believe he is in denial about her calling here!!! and that I threatened her enough for her to call the police! ha!<P>JL,<BR>You are making me laugh, with your description of cranial transplants - or, in my H's case, more like a lobotomy!!! <BR>I know my problems are with H and D not OW, but it felt good to vent to her about her hurting my children - sorry, but now that I finally have that off my chest, I can breathe better. Also, has anyone stopped to think that the policeman had no proof or probable cause to call me on??? - no call trace records from phone co.!! So, I think he must be a bud or relative... My counselor also pointed out that it was bizarre. I just wonder, though, that since he keeps defending her, that he still has feelings for her - I am just not sure this will work. I agree that we need to help our D together - I am taking her to counseling, and we do need to talk to her... she is also going to be assessed for ADD - not all of these behaviors surfaced since the A, just gave more fuel to the fire.<BR>Even Dr. H said you can't just forget an A and move on - there has to be a lot of work and discussion. My H has to be the most stubborn "man" on the planet - he just won't do anything to help with this mess!!! Then, he has the all to tell me it won't work and he is tired of it!!! Yes, I plan to have beverage of choice!! I am just growing weary of his irresponsible, self-centered, childish behavior... Plan B is going to be considered and give careful thought. In meantime, you are right, have to help D and am trying...<BR>Just have begun to reach a point of feeling like I just want to give up...on H!<BR>CALGON TAKE ME AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!<BR>God bless - A

Kris,<BR>Just saw your post - I am sorry your H left, but I am feeling the same way - maybe it would have been better for my H to have felt some repercussion from all this - hasn't really had to feel any pain - I have been sweet, loving and doting on him. What is there to "suffer" or feel bad? -no ramifications as you say.<BR>I will be thinking of you and let's keep in touch.<BR>God bless, A

Annc,<P>A "no contact" lifestyle is being...<P>a "single" parent...<BR>independent...<BR>growth oriented...<BR>...lifestyle.<P>"No contact" is just that...<BR>...in all but mandatory "needs" of the children!<P>This is hard...<BR>...it takes planning...<BR>...emotionally<BR>...financially<BR>...logistically!<P>People will help...<BR>...they always do!<P> <P>Jim

Annc,<P>You and your H need to talk and help D.<P>Of course he has feeling for OW, heck he didn't run away with someone he hated. <P>Annc there is a time scale for these thing and the problem neither you nor your H get to set it. What you can do is quit expecting him to be happily married to you and simply switch off his feelings, guilt, pain. It won't happen for him anymore than it will happen for you.<P>Set back and realistically look at this situation. He is with you, he chose you again. However, he is in a seriously conflicted situation and he is slowly working out of it. That is why he doesn't want to talk about it. What can he say?????????<P>Anything he says that is the truth will make you mad. You have not shown the ability yet to handle the truth well. I am being serious here. So right now for him the best path is to "let it lay there", until more things come into focus.<P>In many cases I have read there, the WS does eventually open up and talk, but only after many things are settled and they are handling their guilt reasonably well. <P>So my recommendation to take care of D, was for you and your H. It will help you rebuild your marriage to focus on something else besides, the fact that he is having a hard time admitting he was completely wrong.<P>You keep pushing him and you will lose him. You don't have to kiss a$$ but you do need to let him sort out many things. You need to sort out many things. Don't use each other as a barometer for many of these things because the other doesn't know the answer. That is why Plan A is for YOU. For you to handle your issues. Let him handle his.<P>Time will tell many things but you cannot push the pace and neither can he. I will bet you a lot of money, he would like nothing more than to be maddly in love with you and the family just peachy. But that isn't the case.<P>The question is do you want it to be the case? If so back off, take care of the important things, such as your D, and learn to work with your H in a non-adversial manner. It will help both of you so much.<P>OK? End of sermon. <P>God Bless You and Your Family,<P>JL

Ann, I am sorry that things are not better in your family. I can offer no advice with your situation with your D. You are probably correct in that the OW had a friend call you. It might have even been her H, but remember what I told you happens when you contact the OW for whatever reason? Remember how when my H's OW e-mailed me, she came out looking so good and virtuous while I looked like a pathetic groveling loser. This is what the OW is doing to your relationship and by contacting her, you are giving her this power. It is imperative that you have absolutely NO CONTACT with the OW. I can only imagine how badly I would have looked to my H if I ever told OW all the things I wanted to tell her. It was bad enough he had to hide his yearbooks because I was looking for a picture of her to tear up into tiny shreds while I yelled at the pieces. When you talk to her or e-mail her, you give her power over you and your relationship. Don't do this. Please. If she contacts you again, delete the e-mail or hang up. Do not respond. It was the hardest thing I ever did, not responding to that e-mail from her. I hate letting other people get the last word. Now, you think she and her H are doing great. I seriously doubt that, but it must really gall you to think that and she knows it. You are playing into her hands. Please, please, don't let her win. Okay?

NSR,JL, Lapeine, and Dogbert,<BR>Thank you all so much for the support!! and all of you have such good advice. Yep, time to back off and see what happens... concentrate on Ds and myself and see if he comes around - guess this means a timeline in my mind as to how much longer I can handle if things don't change...<BR>JL, as always, your perspective is so helpful. Yes, you are right, if I push too hard, it will backfire(although at times lately, I may have wanted that to happen). And, NSR, as you suggest, time to start a game plan of how life would be on my own...<BR>Lapeine, I know - Guilty as charged - I had no business contacting the b....!! I have just been so angry about her involving the kids and hurting them and can't understand why H isn't mad at her for it either!!! Oh, well, I got my vent out - but you are absolutely right, it gives her power, and JL is right when he says it brings her back into our life!!! I suspect police call may have been her way of trying to scare me off from contacting her H - I am not so sure he knows as she claims....<BR>Anyway, I plan to stay as far away from the psycho as I can from now on...<BR>Dogbert - have been meaning to post to you!! How are you???? I did post to you back around the end of July, but for some reason none of my posts that week would register...and then life got crazy as you see. Last time I checked, weeks ago, things were better with you and your wife and I was telling you how happy I was for you!!!<BR>L - how is your situation?<BR>Y'all are the best and your concern and help means so much!!!!!<BR>Where should I be posting, by the way? here or on recovery... just wondering...<BR>Will be in touch,<BR>God bless you all... A )

Dogbert,<BR>That is good that you are having dialogue - that is a start to making things better; I am glad she is talking to you. As you can read, I think my best tactic is backing off - everyone has given good advice and I am going to try to follow it. It's just so hard - I wish I could get my H to talk and open up. Hopefully, in time he will. I think all of you are probably on target re. the guilt and I still think there is some denial. Is the book you refer to "After the Affair." My counselor recommended it and several people on this site also recommend, so I plan to get it today.<P>I am just really encouraged that you two are talking - I think that is one of our problems. If we had talked and communicated, maybe we wouldn't be in this mess. Yet, my H has never been good at sharing his feelings. I hope he will begin to open up and realize how vital talking is...<P>talk to you later - good luck, and I appreciate your input!<P>A

Hey, Dogbert,<BR>Phew, let's see if I can answer... and I hope my answers don't make you feel bad - I have never felt like that - that sex was only for bed, after backrubs, quiet interludes, etc. I don't know - have just never had any hangups in that area. I'll never forget after I had been married 2-3 years, I had read some book - forget the title - about romancing your man or whatever. I put notes around the house for H when he got home to read - i.e. go to refrigerator - where he found a bottle of champagne with a note and further instructions... you know what he did?? and this has made an indelible impression on me for rest of m - I was upstairs waiting, dressed in some lingerie, he came charging up the stairs "what is this??? what are you doing?? this is .... " can't remember exact words, but it was a total bust, bomb - I felt stupid, humiliated, and hurt...not a good scene. Instead of being excited, flattered, etc , he made me feel like a fool.<BR>So, to make a long story short, I have always been game to do things to spice things up - and to keep it interesting. Unfortunately, my H kinda kills it for me...<BR>Then, he goes out and I guess does it with someone else - something we need to address eventually...<BR>Thank you for your kind words - I really appreciate it. This site is helping to keep me sane... y'all are the best. And, you are right - I am not a doormat, nor will I be. Guess I am just someone who wants some attention, too... which makes you start assessing and wondering what is best for "you" - is this relationship something I want if there is no change???<BR>Talk to you later,<BR>Thanks, A

.<p>[This message has been edited by ohmy_marie (edited June 23, 2001).]

oh_mymarie<P>if you have a problem with my attitude, I think you should post me.<P>Although it is wrong to resort to physical abuse, my H wanted me to hit him or he can't live with himself. H asked my siblings to hit him too. So what do you call my sister - brother-in-law beater?<P>H had used mental, emotional and verbal abuse on me during the A (before I knew of the hell hole he was in). What do you think of that?<P>Now he still wants me to hit him to get the pain out of my system.<P>OW was also quite violent towards him.<P>Did being a mild mannered lady help keep a man off A? <P>You can post me here or at you know where.<P>

.<p>[This message has been edited by ohmy_marie (edited June 23, 2001).]

Marie,<BR>Thank you for posting - it is always good to hear from you - your humor helps incredibly!!!!! And, you echo so many of my present thoughts and feelings. I am at the point of feeling like I don't care if H stays - I am weary: weary of coddling him and getting none of my needs met. If I try to snuggle with him, as I did tonight - because I need affection - he says he is claustrophobic!!!!!!!!!! "When did you become claustrophobic?", I asked...always, he said, and I said, BS - I have only heard that one in past 2 or 3 months!!! We had a horrible weekend - D pulled a another biggie, so I took her to doctor and counselor today and am trying to get her help. H has gall to say she is being "selfish" and manipulating...he refuses to accept on acknowledge that she is devastated by knowledge of his A!!! I asked if he would go to counselor with me re D - he said "NO."!!!!!!!!! This is when I am beginning to question why in the h... I am in this relationship. Who needs this...we gave ultimatums to D to live up to, yet the requirements I set down for H have not even been attempted(except for getting tested - but I finally had to issue an ultimatum that if he didn't get tested by a certain date, don't come home - do you know he waited til the last possible minute and did at the end of that afternoon...). He is ready to kick D out, yet when I say I didn't kick you out , he says, but I agreed to some requirements. To which I pointed out that most of them have not been met, and that he even violated some when he continued contact with OW!!! He did not like what I said - got angry!! I am beginning to question why I am staying in this one-sided relationship with a man who obviously does not give a fig about meeting my needs nor does he know what they are...<BR>Phew! I vented! felt good.... I am like you - I yell obscenities in my car when alone, and I want to scream at the top of my lungs about what a jerk he is being...but I am being the southern, gentile lady - ad nauseum. I am not sure my H will ever see the light - will ever talk about the A to learn from it - will ever do anything to "work" on our m - beginning to feel status quo returning in a flood!!! Boring and not fun...<P>BTW, have been curious about the altoids - not that I will ever get the chance to try it , but would love to know anyway...<BR>Please keep posting to me...you make me laugh and keep me from crying!!! BTW, should I be posting on Recovery...?<P>God bless, A