Dear Ann and JL--I remained open to reconcilatory measures for very long and even still am---I did not deliberately turn cold and away. This only happened after I became benumbed by H's lack of interest in having a real marriage--yes he stayed and yes he treats me very politely and is even placating at times--he is dong a very good job doing his "job"---it is just that he feels that this is good enough--the feelings of romantic love never seemed to come back to him---it's as though he made up his mind to do the RIGHT thing and he thinks he has---he sees nothing wrong---but I have been aware of the absence of passion and romantic love ever since he had this "mid-life" thing where all the signs and symptoms of a true EA were there---I believe that I won years ago because I was on the side that was right (according to God) and he pulled himself back in line because it is very important to him to appear to be a real nobel, decent, gentleman---he cares what people think of him, esp. our kids. But--did I really win a prize? Yes, the booby prize. There is a sense that he is just doing the most socially acceptable thing--and that comes up hollow and empty for us both. I really believe that when there is and has always been an inability to be truly intimate, a tendency toward conflict avoidence, an aire of secrecy (like--why are you aking all these questions? When you are just trying to draw them out in the normal way)a sexual indifference with no effort to overcome it and just a basic inability to develope a true marital partnership and not even realizing that there is something missing that there are more problems in that man than just infidelity---that ends up being the least important issue---that issue is fixable---but all those others are not--at least not by a little old regular woman kind of wife who just isn't a psychologist/psychiatrist---even those experts have no cure for those who are so emotionally unavailable and unaware of it. So my advice is this---if H was always this way--the affair was probably just his feeble attempt to try to feel something and he thought another gal might be the answer for his numbness---in other words -- just another symptom of his deeper problems. So think things over very carefully Ann, this may be justthe break you have needed--maybe DIVINE PROVIDENCE is opening the door for you to walk out of a problem that is not yours and one that is not all that fixable--maybe your MAKER wants a better life for you. Yes,you can manipulate it all in favor of keeping the marriage in tact --that's what I did---I used PLAN A and didn't even know it for a very long time---and YES, IT DID WORK to some degree---but as I look back, I see that I just locked myself into a place that was always going to be just so/so. Now, I think to myself with a wry little laugh---I sure wish the OW had won this cold little trophy and today she would be the one hanging out in this forum looking for answers instead of me---me, well, I'd be smiling and laughing with a man who was able to love me as deeply as I loved him. Sometimes we go for the wrong "win" and don't even realize it until it's too late. On the humorous side--my friend's H got involved with OW and left her and two little kids--at first she was sick at heart and trying to win him back--I did all that I could to help her do a plan A type of thing (this was about 30 years ago) and then suddenly one day a few weeks later she appeared on my doorstep looking bright and happy. I, of course, asked what was responsible for the positive change---her reply was this---well, I took a few days to really think this thing through and came to the realisation that other than an injured ego, my most profound feeling is one of pity and sorrow for th OW because now she wll be the one who has to try to make a H out of this selfish, hollow, robot of a man who is not able to be truly close to anyone.!!! She went on--got a job--got some schooling--raised her kids without having her energy sapped off by trying to figure out a non-giving man's emotional problems and eventually she met a good and NORMAL man and now she says that the H's affair was the best gift he ever gave her. Just something to think about. I do believe in saving marriages--that's why mine is 45 years old---but each case is different and to be a real "save" both partners must be able to understand and embrace the meaning of the word "marriage". So my final word on the subject is this: If the errant spouse is ready to do more than just live there in quiet desperation, by all means---SAVE/SAVE/SAVE!! But if you don't get a good sense of that intention then SAVE YOURSELF and THANK HIM for helping you make the decision. BTW--how old are you and H and how old are your kids--esp D who is acting out? What was your relationship like during the first year or two? I am not trying to be a know-it-all cuz I sure don't know much of anything--I'm pouring out from my heart things no one ever shared with me when I was confused and blinded by pain/anger/low self-esteem/fear and shame. LOVE AND HUGS MISS AMANDA

Dear Amanda and JL,<BR>I am sorry I haven't answered your posts - this is the first opportunity I have had to post since my last post...<BR>Ms. Amanda - you are saying so many things that echo my concerns and feelings - I am just not sure my H can be emotionally close. I had a long talk with him this weekend and said that I do not feel he really loves me - I am not hearing things like "I love you so much and want this to work, etc." - he is not affectionate - not trying to meet my needs. Told me I need to "relax" and just "let it happen"... I told him I feel like I am walking on eggshells and don't know how to be around him... I don't know about this at all; I plan to try 6,7 months -maybe til end of school year and see if anything has improved and evaluate whether I want this m. I told him I do not want to stay in a marriage in which I do not feel loved the same as I love him; told him all the things I want...even suggested that he go be on his own for awhile and see what he really wants. He didn't bite...<BR>A, to answer your question, I just turned 48 and H just turned 49. Oldest D, who is acting out is 17, other D is 14. Oldest D told me at counselor's the other day that she thinks I am weak, clinging, etc for staying in the m and not kicking H out! She has a lot of anger and contempt for me right now. I am going to try to get her straight, try to make myself happy and if H comes along fine; otherwise, it will be time to find someone who I feel really loves me. H thinks I am too romantic!!! is that ever telling! JL, I know you say keep Plan Aing, yet I would think H would be a little warmer by now and willing to be more affectionate, etc. If in his shoes, I would be bending over backward to reassure him of my love - it's not happening. How long do you keep banging your head on the wall? I am getting so frustrated not getting much in return - I need to feel loved, especially after his A. Today posted about an article by Dr. Glass that is good - he has the link in his post. She talks about good indicators about whether a m will survive and she says a lot depends on how empathetic the WS is,etc. ...good article if you care to read.<BR>Ms. Amanda's H sounds a lot like mine...<BR>God bless, and look forward to hearing from you.<BR>A

Dear JL<<BR>Read the post by "hurting badly" - and that is my plan - to do for myself. However, I don't agree that staying in a marriage in which one feels spouse doesn't love you is a good thing. I don't depend on my H to make me happy, yet I do want to feel loved. A one-sided relationship where only one person is meeting the other's needs is not healthy - agree? So, would you agree that I give it some time, see what happens, then reassess? I will try to meet his needs, yet at some point, I need to have mine met, too...<BR>thanks, A

Dear JL, again,<BR>Just wanted to reply to your comment that my H's needs must reflect his depression - and, that could very well be. Yet, H says to me that he has never needed a lot of affection or sex - never been one of his top needs. So, I think it would have been same needs if filled out before A, too.<BR>He did not get a lot of affection or warm fuzzies from his mother growing up - she directed it all on his older brother, and I think I am dealing with a lot of emotional scars from this - I am not sure I am equipped to deal with it or help; he is so closed emotionally. I am feeling the affects of his childhood...<BR>what do you think?<BR>A

A few more thoughts:<BR>In our talk this past weekend, I asked him why he won't or can't buy lingerie for me, something I have asked for our entire marriage - he wouldn't answer...<BR>He is not being truthful about the A - says he never got together with her on weekends - I know better. And, I think he met her on the phone meeting service,yet he won't own up to that - told me that is how they talked to one another - at $69 a call? Am I wrong to want straight answers?? I am afraid if he was on this phone meeting service that he will do it again - he was out there trying to find and meet women!!! And, I shouldn't expect affection or much remorse right now??? Guess I am getting angry? frustrated? fed up? ---I would rather he just "own up" rather than continue the lies...<BR>A

Also, why is it so hard for him to stop at grocery or store on way home and pick up a card or flowers knowing that is what I would love and need??? It is as if he is refusing to do anything like that to show love - is this a man "in love"? Is he punishing me? Is he trying to deliver a message? Is he trying to force my hand and make me the one to end this? I can't get any answers from him, so feel like I am playing a guessing game... do I expect too much? yet, if you love someone shouldn't you want to do these things? and make spouse feel loved? can I not want these things? am I supposed to just give up on getting anything in return? if I can do these things for him after what he has done, then why can't he??<BR>Do you see why I suspect he does not feel love?<BR>A

Annc,<P>You asked <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Also, why is it so hard for him to stop at grocery or store on way home and pick up a card or flowers knowing that<BR>is what I would love and need??? It is as if he is refusing to do anything like that to show love - is this a man "in love"? Is he punishing me? Is he trying to deliver a message? Is he trying to force my hand and make me the one to end this? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The answer to all of your questions is NO! IMHO, your H is in withdrawal and depression. He isn't sure he loves you and he doesn't want to string you along by doing things he knows you will interpret that he is. This doesn't mean he doesn't love you, but his feelings are being clouded by many things right now and he knows it. It is very likely he doesn't want to hurt you any more than he has.<P>So T&P T&P Don't you just hate this??? <P>You asked about being married for your lifetime to someone who can't/won't love you. You are not condemned to do this, but you do need to give it some time. Amanda waited a long time for her own reasons and now regrets it. Yet she did post that there were opportunities for her to be proactive and she waited.<P>I believe you should give her advice creedance, but I don't think it should scare you. You have the choice, as you have since day 1, to end the marriage. If that time comes you will know it. You won't be angry, you won't be hurt, and you won't love your H.<P>You don't have to work at that part, the part you need to work (T&P) is loving him. He may come out of this fog and depression and he may not. The data suggests that most do. Then he can seek help for his childhood if y'all think that is necessary. My bet is that although he doesn't feel the need for a lot of affection, he will provide it to you if he comes out of this.<P>You are learning to communicate with him and he you, through all of this. I suspect that you and he will get better yet as time goes on. I would say from reading Amanda's story that is the one thing they failed at. They didn't learn to communicate in a way to maximize their opportunities to have a happy marriage.<P>Yet, being the optimist that I am I think Amanda could resurrect her marriage as well, using the MB approach.<P>So Annc, it is the usual advice. Work on yourself, Plan A, your H and the marriage will do one of two things, get better or get worse. Have patience OK?<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Dogbert,<BR>Thank you!! I guess this is the most frustrating part of all this is that I feel I have so much to give, and a lot would appreciate it, except my H...<P>JL,<BR>Your optimism keeps me plugging along on my rollercoaster - so, you think he is still in the fog? If he isn't sure he loves me, why doesn't he say so? Would it not be easier for him to move out and do what he wants? If he doesn't know if he loves me, then why does he say he does? That's why I feel I am being strung along...would rather be told the truth...<BR>T & P - you're right, 2 words I have come to dread - although I know you are right. I am kinda backing off and going to see/observe what happens...<BR>God bless, A

Good Thinking Annc,<P>Well, he does love you, but he may not be "in-love" with you. Don't you just love that statement?? I do think backing off a little in the expectations and the "work" may help. Annc did you ever read that book I suggested to you? If so you never answered whether you found anything surprising.<P>You know sometimes working on something doesn't mean wrestling with it all of the time. You can work on your marriage by just being there, smiling, laughing, touching, and loving. You don't have to do anything special beyond that right now. No need for deep discussions everyday or week. They do need to occur but the real "work" comes by just being you. That is really what Plan A is all about.<P>Annc, my W is not a very affectionate person, in fact, if she had her way we would never hug or show any affection. It was one of the things that brought me here. I decided I would make my needs known, not so much by asking her, but simply hugging her when I felt like it. Now I don't know if this is the preferred way, but when I first did it she would pull away. But I kept doing it, not a lot, but probably once a day. Gradually, she seems to be more comfortable with this. She will actually hug back. Will she ever initiate such a thing in public (our house ), I doubt it. But she will now respond and hug me back.<P>Is it perfect? No. But it is the best she is capable of right now. I get my hugs now, becuase I simply hug her and I think she is beginning to like it. It only been 24 years of marriage. <P>What am I saying here? Sometimes when you want something from a spouse who isn't predisposed to doing certain things, then you need to show them how to do it. Not teach them, ask them, beg them, just show them. It seems to be working for me. Interestingly, this has led to a better communications in other areas and she is more responsive now there as well.<P>I am not trying to make my W out to be a complete piece of ice, but her preferred way of showing affection and commitment, is to take care of the kids and things around the house. Not hugs and kisses. I understand these things much better now, after being here for awhile.<P>Your H may be doing something similar. So sit and watch, learn from him, he may be trying to show his love but not in the optimal way for you.<P>Something to think about.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL,<BR>Very good points!!! Relax, take deep breaths, smile - my motto for awhile - going to try really hard...<BR>I think showing by example is a great idea...<BR>and will keep trying.<BR>I am still trying to read the bood "men ..." yet my counselor wanted me to read "after the affair" and have been trying to get through that; need to get back to the other one, finish, reread, take notes...<BR>One bright spot, things have been calmer with D since her return home, and I keep my fingers crossed it will continue. Took her to Dr. and he prescribed low dose of Zoloft which is helping, I hope.<BR>Thanks again, and we will keep in touch - hey, we just had our 24th anniversary - married same amount of time...<BR>Thanks, A

OK, as if we needed more rubbish on our rubbish pile - H's job is in jeopardy!! Came home really down and upset last night - has a tyrant as a boss(since last fall) and thinks he is next in the line of 5-6 which have been hatcheted by this guy. Great! one more thing to worry about - guess our relationship just got moved back further on the burner...<BR>What now?<BR>A

Annc,<P>You got that WRONG!!! This is an opportunity for your relationship and the skills you have learned here. If you H loses his job it will be tramatic to him, and financially difficult for you and family. Well, think about this.<P>How can you help him? How can you apply a little Plan A to this situation. How can you help with job hunting? How can you show him he is more than a paycheck?<P>Now having said all of this he will be depressed and probably try to deny your help. This is where you might try what I said. Don't ask him, just give him a hug, or a kiss or an "I love you, even if you are an unemployeed Turkey" Do you understand what I mean.<P>You need to be his best friend, he needs you as his best friend (even if he is too dense to know it. ). Annc, life is full of opportunities, quit looking at change as bad. You can make change a good thing.<P>So please think about this, I know the whole thing is about to become more stressful, but Annc, for both of your sakes, take this opportunity to introduce some calm into it.<P>Heck, if he has a sense of humor, threaten him with coming home for "nooners" everyday until he gets a new job. What a motivation to do something. <P>Annc, back off and think about this. And then show your H what you want, who you are, and your friendship.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL,<BR>You are right, this is an opportunity to show support and love - I have told H that he has is it and that I will do whatever I can to help, not to worry, we will get through this. I guess there is just some insecurity lurking - guess I am a little worried and afraid: we have been through job changes a few times and I have ALWAYS been supportive, ie - last year when we made the move here which was a major one: left "home" - close friends, my job, etc. - I was totally supportive, yet it was a very difficult move due to D's reactions. And, we get here and H had an A. So, I am worried that he will turn back to OW for extra comfort, consolation, ego boost, etc. or seek someone else. I realize I am probably adding more stress on myself, but can you see that it is natural for me to be a little worried right now due to recent experience? I will try to focus on helping, being supportive, etc, but I am afraid - not about loss of job - we can get through that, but afraid H will backslide...<BR>And, I bet intimacy will take a major downturn due to H's stress...<BR>I know change can be good; I have never been really afraid or reluctant of change - I am just feeling the burn of last change.<BR>All I can say, is thank goodness for this site, because I know I will be needing it in weeks to come.<BR>I really am trying to maintain a positive attitude. One of my dear friends told me yesterday that she is amazed at how I am holding up considering all that has been heaped on in past 16 months - so, that made me feel good. I know I am strong and can get through... and with God's help, hopefully, all will be for best...<BR>Thank you and God bless you always,<BR>A

JL,<BR>Not a good weekend - H is really depressed about his job - he wants to sell our house and go down 2-3 levels in a job, cut our standard of living in half...<BR>Phew! a knee jerk reaction, I think... this is scary...<BR>I said I will support him. He didn't want any intimacy this weekend - which I expected;says he just needs my friendship.<BR>OK, I am just about at the end of my rope - trying to hang on...<BR>Ready to run off to a tropical island...<BR>seriously, flight sounds good at the moment!<BR>A

Annc,<P>Well it is time for you to talk with your H. Tell him of your fears. You fear that he will seek comfort from OW. Tell him you fear that you aren't supporting him enough. Tell him that you DON't fear his lack of capabilities and he shouldn't panic. Tell him you need him to reassure you, that you are good enough for him. You know he is for you.<P>Annc, it is time for him to hear what he means to you, your trust in him, and your support. It also time for you to hear, that he understands your need for help in helping him. That your support of him has a high cost: You need a hug and a kiss. And if he is really feeling down and guilty, you need even more . <P>Annc, I know he is depressed, you know he is depressed, and he knows he is depressed. So the two of you make up a plan that you are both happy with. POJA here, even if he doesn't know what the initials mean. You don't sound enthusiastic about his current idea, but I will tell you it is normal. One way to get rid of the stress of having to make money,is to not need money as much, but really the risks of getting laid off are just as high, and the cushion is just thinner because he won't be making as much money.<P>So talk with him, let him know you are sympathetic to his feelings, but also let him know that it is time to hitch up the pants and get back into the fight.<P>This is really tough and you know it. Try to handle it with a little humor as well as your compassion. Heck, Annc, tell him there is a cost for losing the job, hugging , kisses, and sex. He has to pay up. Then all will be forgiven.<P>Do you see what I mean. He will resist, because he MUST feel bad,it is part of the description, cannot be happy about failing the family. However, if you are persistent, imaginative, and pesky (with a sense of humor), you can help him and yourself alot.<P>Hope something I said helps.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Dear JL,<BR>You definitely said things that help!<BR>I have reassured my H - told him he has my support; I am with him, etc. I did voice my concern over the weekend that he will turn to OW for comfort - he didn't like it - got upset and said it has nothing to do with this; it's in the past!! Yet, he doesn't understand that it isn't in past for me...I am still dealing with it - and I told him this.<BR>I am going to try to remain calm and not buy into his panic... this is going to be a long road...<BR>He wants nothing to do with intimacy right now... I know he is depressed and I will back off - yet, am I to just forget about all of my needs? Don't mean to sound whiney..<BR>Tried to instill humor last night...as you suggested - and will keep trying.<BR>God bless,<BR>A<BR>

Annc,<P>Are you aware that there is a 5th rule of happy and successful marriages???? JL's rule: <B>Only one person is allowed to be down in a marriage at one time </B>. Your H beat you to the depression ring this time. So you have to be the happy one in the marriage. <P>Seriously, keep applying the humor. And Ann keep in physical contact with your H. Touch him, hug him, when you go to bed make sure you are in contact. Roll over and demand a kiss from the "sour puss" . In short, get your revenge by annoying him with love and smiles.<P>I will bet that someone in your household will feel much better. YOU!!!<P>I know you get frustrated in more ways than one. But what I am recommending is very similar to what is recommended to men, when their W's don't want to have sex with them. Make contact with them, give back rubs, etc. with no expectation of sex. Yeah, I know that it won't be any easier for you and than many guys, but it does seem to work, when applied for a period of time.<P>Then come here and vent. We can take it.<P>Yell, scream, vent, and then end every post or vent with "Yeah, but I love him". You just need to recall why you are doing this. And you know what, he needs to be reminded too.<P>Keep up the good work, Annc. You are great.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL,<BR>YOU are GREAT!!!!! Thank you!!<BR>However, I am hitting another dip in the rollercoaster ride!<BR>H gave me access to his voicemail in July after incident when I found there was contact still with OW. He doesn't usually erase messages... several days ago, he fussed at me for checking his vm saying that it was causing him to miss new messages because his light would not be on after I checked. So, for past few days, I just check the number of messages and haven't gone in if there are new ones. OK, here's the deal, what should I think of this...today there have been 3-4 new messages, so I didn't check them, and if I call back they have been erased! I can't help but wonder why he is erasing them - bottom line is that there is no trust! He got defensive when I asked why he is erasing them! then, I tried to explain nicely, like you suggested, that I am afraid that with all he is going through that I am not enough and fear him contacting OW. He got really short with me, and said "I told you I am not going into this. I have a lot to do, and I don't have time to talk with you." This was just a few minutes ago.<BR>JL, I am just not sure this is going to work - I feel this is all about his needs while I am dying. I am not sure this relationship is meant to be... I am not sure about anything anymore... I try to be supportive, and all he can do is "avoidance" tactics - no empathy for me on his part.<BR>Help, A

Annc,<P>Here is the bad news. If he is depressed you are not going to get a lot of empathy. I guess I would check on the Voice mail, but not talk about the relationship. Just be there OK! Whether the OW is in the picture or not it is obvious you cannot talk about the relationship. If you need a hug ask him for one. If you need a kiss go get one. <P>But he doesn't want to talk about it. So don't talk about it. Frankly, talking about it is the least useful way of getting to the next level. He lied to you when he was having the affair and you don't trust him. That is why you check the voice mail right?<P>So I would keep my eyes open. I would watch him and see how he is doing. I would get my affection where I can. I would support him and the losing the job issue. I would NOT talk to him about the affair yet. He will bring it up once the healing starts to occur. I suspect, he feels he cannot win if he does address this issue and coupled with losing his job, he probably now feels like a world class loser. Tough to face, Annc.<P>You have never really faced anything like it in your life. With luck and what you know from here you never will. He knows he has betrayed someone who loves him, he knows is lost something from the marriage and probably doubts it can come back. He has now lost his job.<P>Annc, I am not trying to get you to feel sorry for him. Just to see where he is. What seem like very reasonable questions about the marriage or his love, just rip the scab off of the wound. So he avoids it. From what I have read here, this is pretty normal.<P>Annc, I realize you have needs and you are frustrated, but just be is friend and let go of getting something from him. YOu start to do well, but then you trip up by taking the conversation into a realm where he withdraws. Don't force him to address it with you. He must address this stuff himself and then he will talk with you.<P>Be his friend right now, not his instrument of torture. OK???? Annc, you are doing well, but you cannot fix this relationship. You can only fix you and he must fix himself. He has much more fixing to do than you do,so it will take awhile.<P>Hang in there Annc.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Once again, thank you for encouragement. This is the hardest thing I have ever been through - I wish people would think twice before an A and think about all the damage and hurt it can cause!! But, then, I suppose they don't ever think they will get "caught." I have so many insecurities now - not about me - just about my H and his feelings and love. Sometimes I wonder if the damage isn't too great... yet, I think the plan to sit back and observe, and wait to see is a good one. Sometimes I can't help wondering if I am spinning my wheels and deserve someone who will love, cherish, and treat me very well...<BR>H is out-of-town, so I have a little break and some time to think by "myself." <BR>It seems like this is taking so long, and I guess I had hoped for more from him by now...<BR>is this worth it? <BR>Well, keep giving me the boot and shaping me up... <BR>I do appreciate your support, you are great!<BR>God bless, A