Our D left for the weekend without telling us and we didn't know where she had gone!!!!!!! It was h... - she came home at 10:30 Sun. night. H refuses to go with me for counseling for our D!!! She is in major crisis. When I mention that what has happened in past few months has contributed to D's crisis - he says, "I am not going there. I want to move on!" Then, he suggested to me this am that maybe I should get away for a weekend!! OK, last time he encouraged me to get away was so he could be with her!! I don't have good feelings about his suggestion due to memories it stirs up... then, he tells me I need to lighten up, that I am too heavy, that he just wants to move on. That I am trying too hard to have fun!!! That he doesn't want to discuss working on our relationship right now (- he has done nothing that he agreed to do.) When I wanted to snuggle last night because I need affection, he pushes me away and says he is claustrophobic! I don't feel he really wants to work on this m! What is going on? I am getting angry, frustrated, and I feel like I am in this on my own - he needs to go with me to counselor for D!!! I might as well be on my own... What do I do now...is plan b my option?<BR>A

so sorry to hear about this hurtful episode. Think about your D first because she is very hurt. Get help for her and keep her feeling secure about your love for her.<P>Your H is behaving badly and I weep for your rejection. Please try to sit back and analyse the situation and then decide what will work. <BR>You would know whether OW is still in the picture, right?<P>May God help you at this time in your crisis. Please take care of D first - she is the innocent one.

Whether he will go or not, take your daughter to counseling...it would be better if he went, but if not, you do what you can. <P>I am so sorry you are going thru all this...<P>Kathi

Hi Annc,<P>Well, lets do a little thinking here shall we. First, you have two problems and yes they are related but you are not going to be able to address both of them at the same time. Why? They are two different people.<P>So my advice to you is divide and conquer. Work on your D's issues with or without your H. Don't worry about H, just get D to counselor and start to work on her issues. At this point, it makes no difference if H's behavior pushed these issues over the edge. <BR>Most children of parents having trouble don't act this way. Suggesting that the marriage problems may be part of her issues but they are by no means all of them.<P>So go to counselor with D. Don't worry if H comes or not. You are wasting your energy and focus on that non issue. The counselor is going to need to talk at length with D. If the counselor thinks it is important to get feedback from H, the counselor will ask him. Let the pros do their job. Just let your H know what is happening and make sure he knows he is welcome to join in this.<P>As for your H, he is telling you how he needs your support. Give him time. He is probably still dealing with guilt and is probably very embarressed, especially about how this has affected your D. Give him time and love, he will come around, that is what he is saying.<P>One thing for sure, you know what you are doing doesn't seem to be working. As for the snuggling in bed, let me offer you something to try. Just touch him put your hand on his leg, arm, shoulder, whatever. No more, just make contact, but don't snuggle, don't hug. Make the contact light and even move it around, but just some contact. <P>Why do I say this? Well, yeah he may feel closed in, but he is more likely feeling guilty. He cannot yet return what he knows you need and it bothers him. This is good AnnC, it is good. So give him his space but make that light contact. It lets you know he is there and it lets him know you are there, but it doesn't demand anything of him.<P>If you want a strange analogy, it would be like gentling an animal, a horse, if you will, getting it used to the touch and ready for the saddle. Nice analogy right? <P>Annc, you are causing yourself more pain than you need. You have enough issues to address. Take care of D, she needs your time and attention now. You H doesn't need it so much right now and has said so. This is great, you cannot give the time and attention D, needs and meet all of H's needs also. <P>So quit fretting about something that is good right now. You can work on your marriage by informing H how it is going with D, being pleasant to H, and maybe just a little touch here and there . Go slow AnnC, calm down, and work one problem at a time right now.<P>Your H will come around, just communicate with him, tell him what you are thinking, ask his advice on things, and involve him that way. I suspect in time you will see him becoming more involved in everything, and especially you.<P><B>TIME AND PATIENCE </B>, just keep repeating that AnnC T&P, T&P. And No not TP as in TPing a house. <P>And don't forget to take care of yourself OK?<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Annc,<BR>I'm very sorry for what you're going thru. Your D's issue must be very hard. My H just gotten a little better, so I wanted to tell you what happened. My d-day is 4 months ago, it's about same as yours isn't it? My H still refuses counseling too.<P>I know you read "Light His Fire". So did I. The idea of "making him feel good" almost made me puke at first, but I tried anyway just for the heck of it. One night when he came home, I greeted him w/hugs & kisses w/kids and praised him as if he's a superman. (Remember I was still mad at him, but just covered my anger up for one night, to make him feel important, supported, and loved.) It was too obvious to me but he thought that was the greatest night in last 4 months. <P>Then his attitude softened up a lot. Things turned around since. That made everything easier for ME. It is really for YOU to get over your anger and keep supporting him.<P>Then I read "The Power Of A Praying Wife" by Stormie Omartian. Whenever you want to talk to him about the A, your relationship, or his behavior, DON'T. Start praying for him instead. Talking just puts pressure on him, then he draws back, right? I recommend to read this book. The golden rule is "shut up and pray".<P>I pray for you, your D, and your H.

I had to cut off my last post because of my kids, sorry...<P>Sorry if I sounded so pushy, but I know how mad you are and how frustrated you are, I'm in the same place. Please don't beat yourself up so hard, take a deep breath, maybe it is a good idea to get away for a couple days... Hope you'll see better days very soon.<P>I'm praying for you.

Hi, all,<BR>Well, can't tell you how much your encouragement means to me...<BR>Yes, I agree that H must be feeling major guilt, yet I am ready for him to "grow up" and accept responsibility for his actions - it is what we tell our children for goodness sake! I truly feel that he needs to go with D and I to counselor - Yes, JL, D was acting like this before A, yet this acerbated her situation. H sticking his head in the ground is not helping to "move on." I just want him to deal with reality and help to clean up the mess we are in - don't leave it all to me; I am feeling very overwhelmed. I know I need to be patient, etc, but between H and D I am ready to "flee like the wind."<BR>I have taken D to counseling and I am going on my own - counselor wants H to come, too. I feel he needs to go for D's sake, at least!!!<BR>Good to hear from you, Amy!! I have been wondering and worrying about you!!<BR>Thank y'all for everything!!<BR>Love, <BR>A<p>[This message has been edited by Annc (edited August 30, 2000).]

Ok, don't know if anyone is checking back, but I need help again understanding - back to the sex thing.<BR>I have been turned down twice this week - H "too tired," etc. It really hurts, and made me lb last night "that I bet he never turned her down." H feels that once a week is plenty - it is always on his terms as to when. This is not a new issue in our marriage as I have said before - as I told him last night - here we go, I get turned down so I stop initiating because it is rejection and who wants to go through that all the time, then we'll go 1,2, 3 months without. I told him this has been a concern of mine for a long time and he will never address it - now he's gone and had it with someone else, and I am really having a hard time dealing with it because he never seems to want it. So, now I am wondering if this is his first A - maybe he has been doing this for a long time. He says it is first, but I wonder - maybe first time he fell for OW... I told him I feel like the H who is always complaining that his W always has a headache. I am just not sure anymore - I guess I am really at the point where I am questioning our m - what is in this for me? do I really want this - same old, same old...do I want someone who doesn't want to deal with and change anything, especially our sex life. OK, please help me understand - how could he make time for her, probably more than once a week, but not for me? That is one of the questions he refuses to answer, too, - how many times a week did they meet? and where? - in fact, he refuses to answer any.<BR>I may be obsessing, some of you may think - but I am under a lot of stress right now and really questsioning this whole thing...my immediate reaction after D was to save our m, now I am not so sure...<BR>Help...<BR>A

Work on your self esteem. Get a new mindset. Make yourself desirable - smell good, be perky and happy, dress well, nice hair - for yourself.<P>If H notices, great, if not, at least you have a positive outlook and mindset. <P>The rejection is hurtful and the not knowing anguish. But you need to focus on yourself and your daughter and hopefully slowly your husband will begin to appreciate that you have a positive mindset of your own.

Annc,<BR>I'm cheking back a lot... doesn't mean I can help you a lot I wish I could!<P>I can only imagine how hard it is for you... Sounds like it's continuous thing for you. I got turned down a couple times when my H was really in the fog. It hurts, I know that. Intimacy is really something works to heal your pain... I'm really sorry for you. I guess your H just need time to get the OW out of his system (Dr. H says 6 months?) It's not your fault at all, remember that, and he'll come around.<P>Meanwhile, I wonder if you'd like to try something like this... My H still somewhat closed sexually to me, he's afraid of something, not really open with me, even though we do have sex. He's been that way maybe from the beginnig of our m (when we're dating it was great as you can guess...) I really think it has something to do w/his past, but he won't come to counseling. My counselor suggested a series of videos, many therapists use as part of sex therapy, even for sexually abused people, but you can't tell that from the videos at all, they're just meant to be educational. They're called "Better Sex Videos" (3 tapes) by Sinclair Institute.<P>I bought them online (www.intimacyinstitute.com), watched them alone at first because I didn't know how to tell him, then my H accidently found them and joined me watching (he was surprised that I bought something like that and must be curious). It's nice 'cause H doesn't have to face somebody else for his (our) problem. <P>There is one couple in the video that W has more sex drive than her H. They don't have the A problem so you'll have to modify the solution a little, but it might be something good for both of you... I think the message is "relax" and "be playful" but I have to slow down on my H because he'll shut me out if I push too much that way.<P>Sorry, got to go, my kids bugging me again. Hang in there, I keep you in my prayers.

I went to our counselor yesterday and we discussed D's issues - we are trying to get her additional help, ie, evaluation for ADD, etc. She says D is screaming out for attention and that she wants my H to come with us...<BR>She also says I am finding my sense of self and that H and I need to have a discussion re what was missing for each of us - then, assess whether we can and/or will be able to meet those needs. I am concerned that H is maintaining a "facade" - that this is his "job" and he is doing what is necessary for him to "stay" in job rather than working on building a loving, warm relationship. Do you know what I mean? If it is just a "job" then that is unfair to me - he needs to be honest so I can make a choice if this is how I want my m to be for rest of life; yet, if he is hampered by guilt right now, and that is preventing him from "moving forward", then it is worth trying. I need to know if he is willing to make some changes to make our m better...I have demonstrated that I am willing and that I can. Now I need to know if he can... that's fair, isn't it? If our m is going to contiune with him being emotionally "closed" and our sex life remains same, I am not sure it is what I want.<BR>Yes, I have to work on D's issues and take care of her right now, which I am. Yet, it is very frustrating for me to be "alone" in this - I still feel he needs to go to counselor for D - to show his support and love. Counselor says D also feels betrayed... I still feel acting like nothing happened is damaging and unhealthy for his family. It has been 4 months since Discovery - shouldn't we be further along? talking? communicating? have a plan? OK, I am told T&P - yet, I am watching things fall apart around me and I am feeling like I am carrying the weight of the world right now...<BR>Plus, to add to stress, I started a new job, and house is torn up due to remodeling...<BR>Calgon take me away!!<BR>God bless, A<P>Amy, thank you for video recommendation - I will look into it.<BR>JL - TPing a house - HA!!! please bear with me - as I said, I hoped to be a little further along right now and I am stressed...<BR>

PS - <BR>Yes, Dogbert, I agree that guilt is working here...and yes, D, wants to talk about it - wants to know "details" - if sex was involved which I don't think she needs to know... it is awful!! Some days I just want to "shoot" OW for calling our house!!!! No, I would not do that - but....<BR>However, in order to help us, H needs to get over it and realize that acting like nothing happened is very unhealthy. I feel he is very emotionally closed - always has been, yet I feel he needs to make an effort to work on this because not communicating his feelings got us in this mess. And refusing to go to a counselor will not get us the help he needs to work on it...I also feel like he doesn't want anyone to "get into his head." - to know what he is thinking, and that is what is worrying me tremendously!!<P>Hope all is well with you..<BR>A

Annc,<P>As you well know, I am not a counselor, but do you think your H's reluctance with D is somehow attached in his mind to you and his dealing with the marriage? Not a very clear question,but let me come at this a different way.<P>Perhaps you could speak to him about D and how much she needs him. But make it clear that by helping her it says nothing about his feelings for you and the marriage. In other words, she needs help whether he wants to work on the marriage or not. And they are indeed separate problems.<P>My guess is that he feels guilty that she is acting out and he is taking all of the blame on himself. So going to face the "wrath" of the counselor who is going to tell him what a horrible father he is, doesn't float his boat. He is avoiding this conflict.<P>Now you may say, that you know that the counselor won't get on him or that it isn't his fault, but he doesn't know that. <P>Annc, sit down with H and really talk with him, not about affairs, or sex, or anything. Tell him straight out your D loves the both of you, you love him, and your D needs his support right now. Talk with the counselor about this perhaps she/he can come up with a strategy for getting him involved.<P>Oh, and by the way if the D thing is really stressing him out, you won't be getting any tonight. . Seriously, if all of this is playing on his mind, I doubt seriously if he could respond to you even if intellectually he wants to. He is carrying a lot of guilt.<P>So Annc focus on D as I said before, don't worry about the marriage. If H is needed let him know. Let him know he isn't under attack. He will probably face some rejection from D, and that will be tough, but it is time to help D.<P>Hope something I said helps.<P>God Bless You and Your Family,<P>JL

JL,<BR>As always, everything you say is helpful - and makes sense. I do plan to sit down and talk to him this weekend - if he doesn't try to shut me up...he is so good at advoidance and it is extremely frustrating for me. If he doesn't want to talk about something he won't, period. He avoids talking about anything unless it is "superficial" - he avoids conflict - he avoids intimacy - he avoids everything!!! The problem is that I can understand he is feeling guilty and "bad" but avoidance is hurting the rest of us and our recovery. Isn't there a point when you have to "face the music?" What is he modeling for our Ds? You can't run away from your problems and expect them to go away. And, I am growing weary of handling it all - I didn't create this mess and need his help!!!!!!!!! He is withdrawing love units at a rapid rate!!!<BR>Thank you for your help.<BR>God bless, A <BR>PS - Intimacy? I am losing my desire - he is killing it anyway, so I probably won't be making any moves... I need to focus on D right now...I feel like "the heck with him!" Aren't I awful?

Hey, all,<BR>Well, H and I finally did the EN survey yesterday - very interesting. His top 5 are admiration, family commitment, financial support, honesty and openness, and domestic support. Sexual fulfillment and affection are down at the bottom! OK - this is what I have been struggling with - if sex is a low need, then why go have sex with someone else. Still would like answers... Also, he told me yesterday that he doesn't think he can make me happy - so how do I take that, and am wondering what to do - where is this headed?<BR>Thanks, A

Hey, all,<BR>Well, H and I finally did the EN survey yesterday - very interesting. His top 5 are admiration, family commitment, financial support, honesty and openness, and domestic support. Sexual fulfillment and affection are down at the bottom! OK - this is what I have been struggling with - if sex is a low need, then why go have sex with someone else. Still would like answers... Also, he told me yesterday that he doesn't think he can make me happy - so how do I take that, and am wondering what to do - where is this headed?<BR>Thanks, A

AnnC,<P>Guess what? I would bet those needs reflect how depressed he is. If you two get back on track, I'll bet the sexual needs will climb up the list abit. Of course he is partly right, he cannot make you happy. You have to do that, but is he telling you something else?<P>I have been talking with you for awhile and I am beginning to fog over abit, age you know. But if you used to LB him a good bit or just went on your way in things, then he may be saying, that he felt he never made you happy and doesn't understand how he could now.<P>You can solve this problem. It is the Plan A approach. You need to tell him what you are thinking now versus what you used to think. He may need to see that you have adopted a different perspective on things and the marriage will be different. You see if he is a conflict avoider, then he sure does want to avoid those LB's.<P>Get him focused on your D right now, Not the marriage. If the he focuses on D, of course he will be focusing on the marriage but in an indirect way. It will allow you to work as a bit of a team without you "working" on the marriage. Gentle contact right now.<P>Is he on meds? You might want to check on that, if he is maybe a slightly different kind might help.<P>Annc, he is working on this. He did the needs, you are seeing slight movement, but it is in the right direction. Take heart your efforts are definitely helping.<P>Keep up the good work.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

I have been following this thread and my heart aches for my sisters who are dealing with this PAIN. Many years ago (about 22) my H began acting stranger and more distant that usual---he had always been intimacy and conflict avoident--but this was worse. He seemed to be trying to provoke me into wanting a divorce. I didn't want one so I just pretty much played dumb and kept on behaving my regular wifely way. He eventually told me that he wasn't sure he loved me and probably never really had. I was a lady (don't know how I did it) and responded with "well,that certainly is a sorrowful thig for you and I don't see how you have hidden this for the past 23 years, but I am glad you have told me now and I will see a lawyer Monday morning and file for a divorce, and I want you to know that I am so grateful for the 23 years you have given me--in your place, I don't think I could have behaved as fine as you have. I have loved you and still do so things have been pretty good for me--I'd rather be the one who loves than the one who is there just doing a "job". So I want to compliment you on the admirable "job" you did and thank you for your valiant effort. I do want you to be happy too, so I will make no effort to hold you or to make your life hard." I was calm and serene on the outside--but DYING on the inside. He became visibly panic stricken and began to say he didn't want a divorce and bla bla bla---I believed him when he said he just wanted to rebuild our marriage and make it better. This sounded great to me!!! I had been praying for that for most of the first 23 years!! Well, we talked into the night and my calm didn't last and I cried and screamed and ran the emotional gamut. He tolerated my reactions and had plenty of his own. We hugged and cried together and decided to fix whatever was wrong. He became cold and distant when we climbed into bed and said it had been a very emotionally draining day---well, no kidding? BUT_I needed him to hold me and reassure me but he did not. The next morning when I asked him how he wanted to start "rebuilding", he was surly and angry acting, acting as if I HAD BEEN THE ONE TO DO THE HURTING (it was almost like he was trying to get me to think again about divorce and make my offer again--I did not because by this time my angers and fears and anxiety had kicked in and I did not want to be a divorced woman. Well, several years passed with things being at a standstill! I was becoming weak and very insecure and confused. He just seemed rather content, unperturbed and indifferent. I had asked him right way if there was someone else. He had said no. I repeated this question many times and he always said no. I became a different lady--tortured and unhappy and very scared and he became colder and meaner and somewhat emotionally abusive. Things finally came to head when I picked up a message on his machine--it was vague and by no means evidenciary---just sort of like--Hi Joe this is Debby and I am waiting for directions-----and then it trailed off unintellagibly !!!!! I would have thought nothing of it because he got dozens of business calls daily---BUT>>>>the way he acted!!!! SOOOOO guilty!!! Then I suspected--OW!! He still denied it and does to this day. I had that knowing feeling in my gut and I reacted to it and became hell on wheels---got an atty. who promptly froze all the liquid assets and filed for a divorce. A week or so later he was saying all the right things and telling me that he was an innocent man etc and that I should cancel all this silliness and he made lots of promises--all the usual ones--didn't really keep most of them---BUT something did change in him. I came back and we started again---he did seem to be trying about a third of the time, the remainder, he seemed to be sulking, angerizing and sort of like grieving. He would not open up and talk--wouldn't answer questions--all he would say was that it was a mid life crisis and had nothing to do with affairs. We struggled along with no real resolution--me now,either crying and scared and childlike or bitter and waspish and mad as H....! The sex between us never did get right again-- at first this was because he was rejecting me and then, much later, because I stopped wanting him--he had lost my admiration and respect--he was just too much WORK for almost no reward--except financial security. He would not go to counseling and when one of our Ds began acting out at 15/16 years of age, he acted just like your H. I wish now that I had taken a more self loving action---especially after it became clear that he was NEVER going to open up and talk and be honest. We have now been married 45 yrs and I am 61 and he 65. The damage that was done was NEVER repaired because he would not deal with it all honestly. I think my H was willing to stop whatever he was doing to save his face, the kids and THE MONEY but remained MAD AT ME for about 5 years---and then he softened up but by then I was MAD AT HIM and had a rock hard heart. I obsess constantly about all this and am unable to let it go---so many unanswered questions haunt me day and night. My H still denies any wrong doing---but the whole experience, especially the sexual withdrawal and the increased intimacy avoidence etc. on his part created a trauma for me that has become permanent. I would say if a man won't talk, answer questions and reassure his wife and resume sexual relations quickly ,then a divorce might be best. The very idea of the guy who was never that sexual in the first place, seeking it elsewhere--then getting caught or suspected (in my case) and then stopping that, to return to the marriage but rejecting the wife and sulking and grieving etc, making her do all the work of repairing things---practically begging him to love her again, is just ridiculous. I didn't ever think he would do an affair because sex wasn't one of his top priorities---I had always had to initiate it and help him remember to desire it. I am so sorry that I did all that and subjected myself to such pain and humiliation. We get along okay, but I know I deserved a whole, complete life and love like I was giving him. I wish in retrospect that I had made different choices. So, I think that if you know for sure about the affair and your H doesn't come around in six months and become open, honest and genuinely willing to work on your marraige and your child's problems, that you need to move on. My problem was that I didn't know for sure, I could find no real proof and he denied it. If you know for certain I think you are lucky because at least you know what you are dealing with.<BR>This gives you freedom from the not knowing what is wrong--which almost drove me crazy. I hope my story will be of some use to you but even if not, it did me good to tell it. You can not bear the burden of his betrayal, the burden of trying to repair it and the burden of his coldness and stay sane and normal. My heart is with you. Miss Amanda<P>------------------<P>LET THERE BE NO MORE SEASONS OF SILENCE!!!<p>[This message has been edited by MissAmanda (edited September 05, 2000).]

Dear JL and Miss Amanda,<BR>Thank you for your replies!<BR>JL, if you read Amanda's post, this is exactly what I fear! Amanda, it is heartbreaking and I guess I fear what you are telling me - maybe I know in my heart what you are saying - it is what I am afraid may happen. I feel your suggestion about reevaluating in a few months is a good one - I guess I am already consigned to it. I do not want to end up in a marriage in which my H is here to keep up a facade - I fear he is here just doing the "right" thing, not because he loves me deeply. I have decided I am not willing to settle for that - I want to be in love and be loved. Am I wrong to want what he gave OW??? - and in my case, there is definitely an OW. He was affectionate, passionate, loving, etc - gave gifts, wrote love letters,etc. - ok, JL, am I wrong to want this, too? I fear what Amanda is telling us - that things will never be the same - unless H is willing to make the changes, talk, communicate, etc. I am so afraid he doesn't really love me anymore - is just going through the motions. I have decided to concentrate on D's and me -I really can't deal with him much right now. I miss the days he used to get "turned on" seeing me in a bathingsuit and/or lingerie - now, nothing! how long do I put myself through this?? Doesn't he owe me honesty?? He told me this past weekend in a brief comment that he never saw her on the weekends - I know better!!! I heard from a good source that he would come into work to call me, then leave... why does he continue to lie???????????? Amanda, thank you for your story, and please keep in touch - you echo all my concerns and feelings.<BR>JL, you are the best - you try to keep me positive when I wonder if there is anything to be positive about - thank you for keeping me sane!!! About meds - H won't go to counselor, doctor, etc, and doesn't believe in meds!! so no luck there!<BR>Please keep in touch,<BR>Love, A

Annc,<P>Thought about what Amanda posted. And yes, it is not a pleasant situation she is in. But notice something she said. She had chances to make the marriage better but she could not bring herself to reach out to her H. She could not Plan A, when he was receptive and that doomed the marriage as much as his presummed affair.<P>So let us talk about you for a second. You have every reason to expect that your marriage should be more. So does your H. The issue is can more be made out of it? I think so but it is going to take sometime.<P>Yeah I know the old T&P thing again. You are trying to fix something that you cannot fix. You need a different perspective on Plan A and I have just the one for you. Hurting Badly posted a very good insight and I will bookmark it for you so you can read it. I'll put it in a PS. for you.<P>You are right focus on D, but keep talking with H. He agreed to do the EN's test for you and that is a breakthrough. He is working on things Annc, but it will take time for the fog to clear.<P>You know a lot about marriages, and you have resources that Miss Amanda didn't have. If she had had them, I could foresee a different outcome in her marriage. In fact her marriage isn't lost yet, if she really wanted to change it. I'll bet neither she nor H like the current situation.<P>So please read the post I am going to bookmark. You will find it very interesting and I think explain where you should be in Plan A.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<P>PS. Here it is <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/001716.html" TARGET=_blank> Hurting Badly </A><p>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited September 05, 2000).]

Dear Ann and JL--I remained open to reconcilatory measures for very long and even still am---I did not deliberately turn cold and away. This only happened after I became benumbed by H's lack of interest in having a real marriage--yes he stayed and yes he treats me very politely and is even placating at times--he is dong a very good job doing his "job"---it is just that he feels that this is good enough--the feelings of romantic love never seemed to come back to him---it's as though he made up his mind to do the RIGHT thing and he thinks he has---he sees nothing wrong---but I have been aware of the absence of passion and romantic love ever since he had this "mid-life" thing where all the signs and symptoms of a true EA were there---I believe that I won years ago because I was on the side that was right (according to God) and he pulled himself back in line because it is very important to him to appear to be a real nobel, decent, gentleman---he cares what people think of him, esp. our kids. But--did I really win a prize? Yes, the booby prize. There is a sense that he is just doing the most socially acceptable thing--and that comes up hollow and empty for us both. I really believe that when there is and has always been an inability to be truly intimate, a tendency toward conflict avoidence, an aire of secrecy (like--why are you aking all these questions? When you are just trying to draw them out in the normal way)a sexual indifference with no effort to overcome it and just a basic inability to develope a true marital partnership and not even realizing that there is something missing that there are more problems in that man than just infidelity---that ends up being the least important issue---that issue is fixable---but all those others are not--at least not by a little old regular woman kind of wife who just isn't a psychologist/psychiatrist---even those experts have no cure for those who are so emotionally unavailable and unaware of it. So my advice is this---if H was always this way--the affair was probably just his feeble attempt to try to feel something and he thought another gal might be the answer for his numbness---in other words -- just another symptom of his deeper problems. So think things over very carefully Ann, this may be justthe break you have needed--maybe DIVINE PROVIDENCE is opening the door for you to walk out of a problem that is not yours and one that is not all that fixable--maybe your MAKER wants a better life for you. Yes,you can manipulate it all in favor of keeping the marriage in tact --that's what I did---I used PLAN A and didn't even know it for a very long time---and YES, IT DID WORK to some degree---but as I look back, I see that I just locked myself into a place that was always going to be just so/so. Now, I think to myself with a wry little laugh---I sure wish the OW had won this cold little trophy and today she would be the one hanging out in this forum looking for answers instead of me---me, well, I'd be smiling and laughing with a man who was able to love me as deeply as I loved him. Sometimes we go for the wrong "win" and don't even realize it until it's too late. On the humorous side--my friend's H got involved with OW and left her and two little kids--at first she was sick at heart and trying to win him back--I did all that I could to help her do a plan A type of thing (this was about 30 years ago) and then suddenly one day a few weeks later she appeared on my doorstep looking bright and happy. I, of course, asked what was responsible for the positive change---her reply was this---well, I took a few days to really think this thing through and came to the realisation that other than an injured ego, my most profound feeling is one of pity and sorrow for th OW because now she wll be the one who has to try to make a H out of this selfish, hollow, robot of a man who is not able to be truly close to anyone.!!! She went on--got a job--got some schooling--raised her kids without having her energy sapped off by trying to figure out a non-giving man's emotional problems and eventually she met a good and NORMAL man and now she says that the H's affair was the best gift he ever gave her. Just something to think about. I do believe in saving marriages--that's why mine is 45 years old---but each case is different and to be a real "save" both partners must be able to understand and embrace the meaning of the word "marriage". So my final word on the subject is this: If the errant spouse is ready to do more than just live there in quiet desperation, by all means---SAVE/SAVE/SAVE!! But if you don't get a good sense of that intention then SAVE YOURSELF and THANK HIM for helping you make the decision. BTW--how old are you and H and how old are your kids--esp D who is acting out? What was your relationship like during the first year or two? I am not trying to be a know-it-all cuz I sure don't know much of anything--I'm pouring out from my heart things no one ever shared with me when I was confused and blinded by pain/anger/low self-esteem/fear and shame. LOVE AND HUGS MISS AMANDA

Dear Amanda and JL,<BR>I am sorry I haven't answered your posts - this is the first opportunity I have had to post since my last post...<BR>Ms. Amanda - you are saying so many things that echo my concerns and feelings - I am just not sure my H can be emotionally close. I had a long talk with him this weekend and said that I do not feel he really loves me - I am not hearing things like "I love you so much and want this to work, etc." - he is not affectionate - not trying to meet my needs. Told me I need to "relax" and just "let it happen"... I told him I feel like I am walking on eggshells and don't know how to be around him... I don't know about this at all; I plan to try 6,7 months -maybe til end of school year and see if anything has improved and evaluate whether I want this m. I told him I do not want to stay in a marriage in which I do not feel loved the same as I love him; told him all the things I want...even suggested that he go be on his own for awhile and see what he really wants. He didn't bite...<BR>A, to answer your question, I just turned 48 and H just turned 49. Oldest D, who is acting out is 17, other D is 14. Oldest D told me at counselor's the other day that she thinks I am weak, clinging, etc for staying in the m and not kicking H out! She has a lot of anger and contempt for me right now. I am going to try to get her straight, try to make myself happy and if H comes along fine; otherwise, it will be time to find someone who I feel really loves me. H thinks I am too romantic!!! is that ever telling! JL, I know you say keep Plan Aing, yet I would think H would be a little warmer by now and willing to be more affectionate, etc. If in his shoes, I would be bending over backward to reassure him of my love - it's not happening. How long do you keep banging your head on the wall? I am getting so frustrated not getting much in return - I need to feel loved, especially after his A. Today posted about an article by Dr. Glass that is good - he has the link in his post. She talks about good indicators about whether a m will survive and she says a lot depends on how empathetic the WS is,etc. ...good article if you care to read.<BR>Ms. Amanda's H sounds a lot like mine...<BR>God bless, and look forward to hearing from you.<BR>A

Dear JL<<BR>Read the post by "hurting badly" - and that is my plan - to do for myself. However, I don't agree that staying in a marriage in which one feels spouse doesn't love you is a good thing. I don't depend on my H to make me happy, yet I do want to feel loved. A one-sided relationship where only one person is meeting the other's needs is not healthy - agree? So, would you agree that I give it some time, see what happens, then reassess? I will try to meet his needs, yet at some point, I need to have mine met, too...<BR>thanks, A

Dear JL, again,<BR>Just wanted to reply to your comment that my H's needs must reflect his depression - and, that could very well be. Yet, H says to me that he has never needed a lot of affection or sex - never been one of his top needs. So, I think it would have been same needs if filled out before A, too.<BR>He did not get a lot of affection or warm fuzzies from his mother growing up - she directed it all on his older brother, and I think I am dealing with a lot of emotional scars from this - I am not sure I am equipped to deal with it or help; he is so closed emotionally. I am feeling the affects of his childhood...<BR>what do you think?<BR>A

A few more thoughts:<BR>In our talk this past weekend, I asked him why he won't or can't buy lingerie for me, something I have asked for our entire marriage - he wouldn't answer...<BR>He is not being truthful about the A - says he never got together with her on weekends - I know better. And, I think he met her on the phone meeting service,yet he won't own up to that - told me that is how they talked to one another - at $69 a call? Am I wrong to want straight answers?? I am afraid if he was on this phone meeting service that he will do it again - he was out there trying to find and meet women!!! And, I shouldn't expect affection or much remorse right now??? Guess I am getting angry? frustrated? fed up? ---I would rather he just "own up" rather than continue the lies...<BR>A

Also, why is it so hard for him to stop at grocery or store on way home and pick up a card or flowers knowing that is what I would love and need??? It is as if he is refusing to do anything like that to show love - is this a man "in love"? Is he punishing me? Is he trying to deliver a message? Is he trying to force my hand and make me the one to end this? I can't get any answers from him, so feel like I am playing a guessing game... do I expect too much? yet, if you love someone shouldn't you want to do these things? and make spouse feel loved? can I not want these things? am I supposed to just give up on getting anything in return? if I can do these things for him after what he has done, then why can't he??<BR>Do you see why I suspect he does not feel love?<BR>A

Annc,<P>You asked <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Also, why is it so hard for him to stop at grocery or store on way home and pick up a card or flowers knowing that<BR>is what I would love and need??? It is as if he is refusing to do anything like that to show love - is this a man "in love"? Is he punishing me? Is he trying to deliver a message? Is he trying to force my hand and make me the one to end this? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The answer to all of your questions is NO! IMHO, your H is in withdrawal and depression. He isn't sure he loves you and he doesn't want to string you along by doing things he knows you will interpret that he is. This doesn't mean he doesn't love you, but his feelings are being clouded by many things right now and he knows it. It is very likely he doesn't want to hurt you any more than he has.<P>So T&P T&P Don't you just hate this??? <P>You asked about being married for your lifetime to someone who can't/won't love you. You are not condemned to do this, but you do need to give it some time. Amanda waited a long time for her own reasons and now regrets it. Yet she did post that there were opportunities for her to be proactive and she waited.<P>I believe you should give her advice creedance, but I don't think it should scare you. You have the choice, as you have since day 1, to end the marriage. If that time comes you will know it. You won't be angry, you won't be hurt, and you won't love your H.<P>You don't have to work at that part, the part you need to work (T&P) is loving him. He may come out of this fog and depression and he may not. The data suggests that most do. Then he can seek help for his childhood if y'all think that is necessary. My bet is that although he doesn't feel the need for a lot of affection, he will provide it to you if he comes out of this.<P>You are learning to communicate with him and he you, through all of this. I suspect that you and he will get better yet as time goes on. I would say from reading Amanda's story that is the one thing they failed at. They didn't learn to communicate in a way to maximize their opportunities to have a happy marriage.<P>Yet, being the optimist that I am I think Amanda could resurrect her marriage as well, using the MB approach.<P>So Annc, it is the usual advice. Work on yourself, Plan A, your H and the marriage will do one of two things, get better or get worse. Have patience OK?<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Dogbert,<BR>Thank you!! I guess this is the most frustrating part of all this is that I feel I have so much to give, and a lot would appreciate it, except my H...<P>JL,<BR>Your optimism keeps me plugging along on my rollercoaster - so, you think he is still in the fog? If he isn't sure he loves me, why doesn't he say so? Would it not be easier for him to move out and do what he wants? If he doesn't know if he loves me, then why does he say he does? That's why I feel I am being strung along...would rather be told the truth...<BR>T & P - you're right, 2 words I have come to dread - although I know you are right. I am kinda backing off and going to see/observe what happens...<BR>God bless, A

Good Thinking Annc,<P>Well, he does love you, but he may not be "in-love" with you. Don't you just love that statement?? I do think backing off a little in the expectations and the "work" may help. Annc did you ever read that book I suggested to you? If so you never answered whether you found anything surprising.<P>You know sometimes working on something doesn't mean wrestling with it all of the time. You can work on your marriage by just being there, smiling, laughing, touching, and loving. You don't have to do anything special beyond that right now. No need for deep discussions everyday or week. They do need to occur but the real "work" comes by just being you. That is really what Plan A is all about.<P>Annc, my W is not a very affectionate person, in fact, if she had her way we would never hug or show any affection. It was one of the things that brought me here. I decided I would make my needs known, not so much by asking her, but simply hugging her when I felt like it. Now I don't know if this is the preferred way, but when I first did it she would pull away. But I kept doing it, not a lot, but probably once a day. Gradually, she seems to be more comfortable with this. She will actually hug back. Will she ever initiate such a thing in public (our house ), I doubt it. But she will now respond and hug me back.<P>Is it perfect? No. But it is the best she is capable of right now. I get my hugs now, becuase I simply hug her and I think she is beginning to like it. It only been 24 years of marriage. <P>What am I saying here? Sometimes when you want something from a spouse who isn't predisposed to doing certain things, then you need to show them how to do it. Not teach them, ask them, beg them, just show them. It seems to be working for me. Interestingly, this has led to a better communications in other areas and she is more responsive now there as well.<P>I am not trying to make my W out to be a complete piece of ice, but her preferred way of showing affection and commitment, is to take care of the kids and things around the house. Not hugs and kisses. I understand these things much better now, after being here for awhile.<P>Your H may be doing something similar. So sit and watch, learn from him, he may be trying to show his love but not in the optimal way for you.<P>Something to think about.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL,<BR>Very good points!!! Relax, take deep breaths, smile - my motto for awhile - going to try really hard...<BR>I think showing by example is a great idea...<BR>and will keep trying.<BR>I am still trying to read the bood "men ..." yet my counselor wanted me to read "after the affair" and have been trying to get through that; need to get back to the other one, finish, reread, take notes...<BR>One bright spot, things have been calmer with D since her return home, and I keep my fingers crossed it will continue. Took her to Dr. and he prescribed low dose of Zoloft which is helping, I hope.<BR>Thanks again, and we will keep in touch - hey, we just had our 24th anniversary - married same amount of time...<BR>Thanks, A

OK, as if we needed more rubbish on our rubbish pile - H's job is in jeopardy!! Came home really down and upset last night - has a tyrant as a boss(since last fall) and thinks he is next in the line of 5-6 which have been hatcheted by this guy. Great! one more thing to worry about - guess our relationship just got moved back further on the burner...<BR>What now?<BR>A

Annc,<P>You got that WRONG!!! This is an opportunity for your relationship and the skills you have learned here. If you H loses his job it will be tramatic to him, and financially difficult for you and family. Well, think about this.<P>How can you help him? How can you apply a little Plan A to this situation. How can you help with job hunting? How can you show him he is more than a paycheck?<P>Now having said all of this he will be depressed and probably try to deny your help. This is where you might try what I said. Don't ask him, just give him a hug, or a kiss or an "I love you, even if you are an unemployeed Turkey" Do you understand what I mean.<P>You need to be his best friend, he needs you as his best friend (even if he is too dense to know it. ). Annc, life is full of opportunities, quit looking at change as bad. You can make change a good thing.<P>So please think about this, I know the whole thing is about to become more stressful, but Annc, for both of your sakes, take this opportunity to introduce some calm into it.<P>Heck, if he has a sense of humor, threaten him with coming home for "nooners" everyday until he gets a new job. What a motivation to do something. <P>Annc, back off and think about this. And then show your H what you want, who you are, and your friendship.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL,<BR>You are right, this is an opportunity to show support and love - I have told H that he has is it and that I will do whatever I can to help, not to worry, we will get through this. I guess there is just some insecurity lurking - guess I am a little worried and afraid: we have been through job changes a few times and I have ALWAYS been supportive, ie - last year when we made the move here which was a major one: left "home" - close friends, my job, etc. - I was totally supportive, yet it was a very difficult move due to D's reactions. And, we get here and H had an A. So, I am worried that he will turn back to OW for extra comfort, consolation, ego boost, etc. or seek someone else. I realize I am probably adding more stress on myself, but can you see that it is natural for me to be a little worried right now due to recent experience? I will try to focus on helping, being supportive, etc, but I am afraid - not about loss of job - we can get through that, but afraid H will backslide...<BR>And, I bet intimacy will take a major downturn due to H's stress...<BR>I know change can be good; I have never been really afraid or reluctant of change - I am just feeling the burn of last change.<BR>All I can say, is thank goodness for this site, because I know I will be needing it in weeks to come.<BR>I really am trying to maintain a positive attitude. One of my dear friends told me yesterday that she is amazed at how I am holding up considering all that has been heaped on in past 16 months - so, that made me feel good. I know I am strong and can get through... and with God's help, hopefully, all will be for best...<BR>Thank you and God bless you always,<BR>A

JL,<BR>Not a good weekend - H is really depressed about his job - he wants to sell our house and go down 2-3 levels in a job, cut our standard of living in half...<BR>Phew! a knee jerk reaction, I think... this is scary...<BR>I said I will support him. He didn't want any intimacy this weekend - which I expected;says he just needs my friendship.<BR>OK, I am just about at the end of my rope - trying to hang on...<BR>Ready to run off to a tropical island...<BR>seriously, flight sounds good at the moment!<BR>A

Annc,<P>Well it is time for you to talk with your H. Tell him of your fears. You fear that he will seek comfort from OW. Tell him you fear that you aren't supporting him enough. Tell him that you DON't fear his lack of capabilities and he shouldn't panic. Tell him you need him to reassure you, that you are good enough for him. You know he is for you.<P>Annc, it is time for him to hear what he means to you, your trust in him, and your support. It also time for you to hear, that he understands your need for help in helping him. That your support of him has a high cost: You need a hug and a kiss. And if he is really feeling down and guilty, you need even more . <P>Annc, I know he is depressed, you know he is depressed, and he knows he is depressed. So the two of you make up a plan that you are both happy with. POJA here, even if he doesn't know what the initials mean. You don't sound enthusiastic about his current idea, but I will tell you it is normal. One way to get rid of the stress of having to make money,is to not need money as much, but really the risks of getting laid off are just as high, and the cushion is just thinner because he won't be making as much money.<P>So talk with him, let him know you are sympathetic to his feelings, but also let him know that it is time to hitch up the pants and get back into the fight.<P>This is really tough and you know it. Try to handle it with a little humor as well as your compassion. Heck, Annc, tell him there is a cost for losing the job, hugging , kisses, and sex. He has to pay up. Then all will be forgiven.<P>Do you see what I mean. He will resist, because he MUST feel bad,it is part of the description, cannot be happy about failing the family. However, if you are persistent, imaginative, and pesky (with a sense of humor), you can help him and yourself alot.<P>Hope something I said helps.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Dear JL,<BR>You definitely said things that help!<BR>I have reassured my H - told him he has my support; I am with him, etc. I did voice my concern over the weekend that he will turn to OW for comfort - he didn't like it - got upset and said it has nothing to do with this; it's in the past!! Yet, he doesn't understand that it isn't in past for me...I am still dealing with it - and I told him this.<BR>I am going to try to remain calm and not buy into his panic... this is going to be a long road...<BR>He wants nothing to do with intimacy right now... I know he is depressed and I will back off - yet, am I to just forget about all of my needs? Don't mean to sound whiney..<BR>Tried to instill humor last night...as you suggested - and will keep trying.<BR>God bless,<BR>A<BR>

Annc,<P>Are you aware that there is a 5th rule of happy and successful marriages???? JL's rule: <B>Only one person is allowed to be down in a marriage at one time </B>. Your H beat you to the depression ring this time. So you have to be the happy one in the marriage. <P>Seriously, keep applying the humor. And Ann keep in physical contact with your H. Touch him, hug him, when you go to bed make sure you are in contact. Roll over and demand a kiss from the "sour puss" . In short, get your revenge by annoying him with love and smiles.<P>I will bet that someone in your household will feel much better. YOU!!!<P>I know you get frustrated in more ways than one. But what I am recommending is very similar to what is recommended to men, when their W's don't want to have sex with them. Make contact with them, give back rubs, etc. with no expectation of sex. Yeah, I know that it won't be any easier for you and than many guys, but it does seem to work, when applied for a period of time.<P>Then come here and vent. We can take it.<P>Yell, scream, vent, and then end every post or vent with "Yeah, but I love him". You just need to recall why you are doing this. And you know what, he needs to be reminded too.<P>Keep up the good work, Annc. You are great.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL,<BR>YOU are GREAT!!!!! Thank you!!<BR>However, I am hitting another dip in the rollercoaster ride!<BR>H gave me access to his voicemail in July after incident when I found there was contact still with OW. He doesn't usually erase messages... several days ago, he fussed at me for checking his vm saying that it was causing him to miss new messages because his light would not be on after I checked. So, for past few days, I just check the number of messages and haven't gone in if there are new ones. OK, here's the deal, what should I think of this...today there have been 3-4 new messages, so I didn't check them, and if I call back they have been erased! I can't help but wonder why he is erasing them - bottom line is that there is no trust! He got defensive when I asked why he is erasing them! then, I tried to explain nicely, like you suggested, that I am afraid that with all he is going through that I am not enough and fear him contacting OW. He got really short with me, and said "I told you I am not going into this. I have a lot to do, and I don't have time to talk with you." This was just a few minutes ago.<BR>JL, I am just not sure this is going to work - I feel this is all about his needs while I am dying. I am not sure this relationship is meant to be... I am not sure about anything anymore... I try to be supportive, and all he can do is "avoidance" tactics - no empathy for me on his part.<BR>Help, A

Annc,<P>Here is the bad news. If he is depressed you are not going to get a lot of empathy. I guess I would check on the Voice mail, but not talk about the relationship. Just be there OK! Whether the OW is in the picture or not it is obvious you cannot talk about the relationship. If you need a hug ask him for one. If you need a kiss go get one. <P>But he doesn't want to talk about it. So don't talk about it. Frankly, talking about it is the least useful way of getting to the next level. He lied to you when he was having the affair and you don't trust him. That is why you check the voice mail right?<P>So I would keep my eyes open. I would watch him and see how he is doing. I would get my affection where I can. I would support him and the losing the job issue. I would NOT talk to him about the affair yet. He will bring it up once the healing starts to occur. I suspect, he feels he cannot win if he does address this issue and coupled with losing his job, he probably now feels like a world class loser. Tough to face, Annc.<P>You have never really faced anything like it in your life. With luck and what you know from here you never will. He knows he has betrayed someone who loves him, he knows is lost something from the marriage and probably doubts it can come back. He has now lost his job.<P>Annc, I am not trying to get you to feel sorry for him. Just to see where he is. What seem like very reasonable questions about the marriage or his love, just rip the scab off of the wound. So he avoids it. From what I have read here, this is pretty normal.<P>Annc, I realize you have needs and you are frustrated, but just be is friend and let go of getting something from him. YOu start to do well, but then you trip up by taking the conversation into a realm where he withdraws. Don't force him to address it with you. He must address this stuff himself and then he will talk with you.<P>Be his friend right now, not his instrument of torture. OK???? Annc, you are doing well, but you cannot fix this relationship. You can only fix you and he must fix himself. He has much more fixing to do than you do,so it will take awhile.<P>Hang in there Annc.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Once again, thank you for encouragement. This is the hardest thing I have ever been through - I wish people would think twice before an A and think about all the damage and hurt it can cause!! But, then, I suppose they don't ever think they will get "caught." I have so many insecurities now - not about me - just about my H and his feelings and love. Sometimes I wonder if the damage isn't too great... yet, I think the plan to sit back and observe, and wait to see is a good one. Sometimes I can't help wondering if I am spinning my wheels and deserve someone who will love, cherish, and treat me very well...<BR>H is out-of-town, so I have a little break and some time to think by "myself." <BR>It seems like this is taking so long, and I guess I had hoped for more from him by now...<BR>is this worth it? <BR>Well, keep giving me the boot and shaping me up... <BR>I do appreciate your support, you are great!<BR>God bless, A

Annc,<P>Wondering if all this is worth it, seems to be the major pass time on this board. You are not unique. I will tell you one thing. You H does love you or he wouldn't be there. He wouldn't be dealing with what he sees in your eyes everyday, and how you feel everyday. I am sure he notices these things.<P>He is probably questioning himself more than your are questioning him right now. Now especially with losing a job on top of everything else. Annc, you aren't missing out on anything by trying. You are learning many things, that will help you in the rest of your life, no matter how the marriage works out. <P>I personally think it will work out, but I think you will grow and learn from this and become a woman you can respect and your H can respect. So hang in there, keep learning, and keep growing (T&P for you young Lady! ).<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Thank you, JL!!! I do not like rollercoasters - and this is definitely been the rc ride of life - steep hills and deep valleys.<BR>Will keep posting and venting here and getting all the incredible support.<BR>Do you think I ought to move to Recovery board???<BR>As always,<BR>A

OK, JL,<BR>Crown me the queen of stupid!!!!!and naive, and whatever! Midweek I got into an im session with OW!! Yes, stupid, I admit!<BR>She was telling me how sorry she is, etc. blah, blah, blah. Instead of telling her to take a hike, I talked to her!!!(once off, I asked myself why I didn't tell the b...off - she tried to ruin my marriage and family and here I was being civil to her!!!!!????) she said H really loves me; I expressed concern; she said she and her H are experiencing the rebuilding trust issue, too; she said her A with my H wasn't about money or security(well, if she brought it up, don't you think it was a factor???)etc.... then, she asked how my H is doing - and naive, honest, STUPID me tells her that he is down, I am concerned!! Then, she had to get off real fast!!! Once off, I realized, omg,what did I just do??? She is obviously still missing him and I played right into her hands!! Gave her an opening to call and check on him... I didn't get the chance to explain that he is down due to all the hurt he has caused, job, etc. Now she probably thinks it is because he misses her!!! Yes, I was born yesterday! I could kick myself - I am not good on my feet when caught off guard!! So, I planned to tell H when he returned from his trip - he has been gone since Weds. a.m. Well, I picked him up at airport tonight, we went to dinner, I am dressed to kill(but did he notice? - no)- When we get home, girls are not here - when they return, I am angry and unload about their behavior while H was gone. So, eldest gets her revenge and turns spotlight on me - that all I did was talk to "his woman" on the computer!!! As I said, I had planned to follow open and honesty policy and tell him - yet I knew he was tired and not a good time to discuss - would wait til tomorrow. Yet, D beat me to it - they walked in during im session; I didn't think they saw, but they did! So, H unleashes at me!! how can I continue to bring her into our house??? it's over, etc, etc. Very angry with me - of course, I retorted that I wasn't the one who brought her into our house in the first place and I have done nothing wrong - he is the one who had the A!!! And, I added that he bought into D's manipulation to take spotlight off her and make me the bad guy. I told him I had planned to tell him, but decided to wait when he wasn't so tired - admitted that I used bad judgement, that I am naieve- trusting - stupid!!! and did not think on my feet and regretted and thought what I should have done after the fact. He continued to blame and blast me - I told him I have had it; I am tired of being the bad guy and taking blame for the situation he created!!! That he can pack his bags!!! And, I really feel this way - I have had it!<BR>Then, our nephew calls - H's Mom is not doing well - may have to go to Duke Hospital tomorrow. OK, one more thing to deal with!!<P>What to do now???? I really do not give our situation much hope - H is an avoider; will not deal with this situation. Yes, I was wrong and admit it, but it does not compare to what he did!!! I am tired of being blamed: I am tired of no intimacy and affection. I just want him to be open; and treat me with love. I want him to go to counseling - we have too much garbage on our pile for us to handle, yet he refuses!!! which tells me our relationship doesn't mean enough...<BR>Things seem to be getting worse instead of better...<BR>I am sleeping in guest room tonight - tired of dealing with ....<BR>God bless, <BR>A<p>[This message has been edited by Annc (edited September 24, 2000).]

PS,<BR>I understand he is under a lot of stress right now; I understand he is probably down, etc - yet, I feel he doesn't need to lash out at me. I feel there isn't a lot of understanding or empathy on his part for me...<BR>Are we having fun yet?? Ha!<BR>A

Annc,<BR>I'm so sorry you're having such a hard time. I always come and check on your thread... not much to say, I'm no expert... but just wanted you to know I'm here with you.<P>About counseling, I finally convinced him to come with me 2 weeks ago, but guess what? I had more troubles from being in counseling with him than me working on marriage alone. He offered not to go next one, and I agreed. Seriously. Counseling works lot better just by myself, it's not for a guy like my H. (Did you do personality type test? My H's type ISTJ or INTJ, these guys just don't talk about their feelings, counseling is just a torture for them.)<P>FaithHopeLove and Karenna have been big help for me, they are personality experts mostly on EN section, I think. Try EN, or GQ, lots of wonderful people out there.<P>Also I'm reading "How one of you can bring the two of you together" by Susan Page, FHL recommended. At 1/3 of the book, I feel like "working by myself on the m" is almost better than my H being involved. Especially our case, when WS isn't willing to talk or do anything about it. I haven't finished the book yet but I feel (& act) lot better already, even though my H or the situation hasn't changed much!<P>So... hang in there, I know there are WAY too many bumps in the road we're on. It is hard, but you are not alone. Take care of yourself, I'm praying for you!!!!!

Hi, Dogbert and Alien,<BR>I appreciate y'all checking in with me!!!<P>HA!, Dogbert - believe me, I think it might be better to have sex only once a month than to have an A!!! Wish the WS's would think a lot more about all the pain and damage they will cause - and I am sorry, but wish the WS, if a man, would think with the right head!!! Would save everyone a lot of grief and heartache - I keep saying to myself, This too shall pass... doesn't seem to even be in passing lane yet. I did happen to get over to EN or GQ the other night when I was up at 3 a.m. - wanted to post, but was too tired to make any sense or sound literate! It does sound like your situation is getting better!!! Isn't it? Please, if ever you think about straying, talk to me first!!!<P>Alien, read some of your posts the other night too. Sounds like you, me, and Lapeine are still in same boat or in same car going over the bumpiest road I have ever been on. It is about to shake my suspension loose it is so bumpy!! Thanks for your insight and encouragement - I certainly am no expert either or feel I can give good advice, but your support means the world to me, and being in same situation helps to know we are about on the same page. Yep, I'd have to agree my H is probably same type as yours - where do y'all take all these personality tests? Read Marie's "Hit a bump in the road" in recovery today - some good stuff, and I can relate to what she is saying. I also feel I do not respect my H, and at times wonder "what is this "prize" I am winning?" Let's keep in touch...<BR>Take care,<BR>A<BR>PS<BR>I will try to get on your posts and talk to more people - I have kinda gone into my cave lately...

I hope this link thing works...<P> <A HREF="http://www.personalitytype.com" TARGET=_blank>www.personalitytype.com</A> <P>Don't have lots of time right now, but I'll be back! <P>[This message has been edited by alien (edited September 26, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by alien (edited September 26, 2000).]

Dogbert,<BR>I am so sorry you are struggling, but I totally understand!! Yet, please keep trying within your marriage - imagine how it feels to be rejected, then have your spouse seek intimacy elsewhere. Ouch!! I am really struggling with it! I suppose it is because I am not getting much in return right now. Everyone advises me to "relax", be patient, but I know what you mean when you say you are dying inside. It has probably been almost two weeks since we made love - I haven't initiated, hence there has been none.<BR>I just tried the "10 sec. kiss" strategy with H and he literally ran out of the room, wanted nothing to do with it!!! I told him I don't feel he wants me intimately - that I understand he is going through a lot, yet marriage is about meeting one another's needs, not just HIS needs when he chooses. Everything is on his terms - he is too tired, had a long day, the store(to get flowers or a card is not on his way home) - blah, blah, blah. I don't think he cares nor has any idea that he is killing my feelings and love for him. I told him all this tonight and all I heard was "not tonight, I can't discuss this now, I am tired - got up at 5:30 and didn't sleep all night" to which I replied " you went to bed at 9, I went to bed at 11:30 and didn't sleep, got up at same time as you and went to work all day, too - I am just as tired; difference is that you just don't want to "be"with me or go out of your way - it is obvious; when are you going to be honest with me and stop lying;this is not the marriage I want; I want passion and romance, intimacy - not just best friends - I might as well sleep in guest room...you don't care about my needs" - I got: " I don't want to discuss this" - I said, I am still struggling with the fact that you could be that way with someone else, make time for sex,etc, yet I have never turned you down or had "headaches" yet you found the energy and time to be with someone else!!<BR>D, do you see how this wrecks havoc on a marriage? My self esteem with my H is nil, I am not happy, I don't trust him, I don't respect him, and I am beginning to fall out of love with him!!!!! Now, what do I do????<BR>Thank goodness I am going to counselor in a.m. On top of all this I have two teenage daughters who are exercising the typical mother daughter hate thing - all I want to do is run away!!!<BR>Please stick in there and make it work - or if you don't think it will, separate or divorce before you do this kind of damage - trust me, it is not worth it!<BR>A concerned friend,<BR>A

Dogbert,<BR>It's the next morning - I slept in the guest room. Do you think I am being selfish - I know H has a lot on him right now; some may feel I am not being patient or plan Aing enough. Yet, I guess I feel I have tried to show him I am willing to meet his needs - yet, do I keep going on without wanting anything from him? In an earlier post, I said that H listed Affection and SF as 8,9, or 10 on his list of needs, where they were 1 and 2 for me. He thinks that making love ONCE a week is plenty - I said, not for me. Yet, because he doesn't see the need, it doesn't happen... Aren't we supposed to be meeting each other's needs even if they aren't one of our top needs???? Mix hurt and resentment in the batter and I wonder if this will survive. I just don't get it and he isn't helping me "get it"(understand).<P>At least you and your W are having dialogue, right? At least you are communicating? Be thankful for that - I feel like I am the only one communicating.<BR>I long for attention and to feel attractive, too - as you said "dying inside" - and I am at a loss as what to do...<BR>Best of luck,<BR>A

Hi, D,<BR>Thank you for your reply!<BR>I am trying to assess what is best for me right now...you are right, I feel there is a point where "how much am I going to coddle this man who was wrong and won't really own up?" I just don't know right now - I am not sure how I feel about him at the moment...<BR>I think the A brought a lot of things to a head (what a choice of words) with me and now I am beginning to want more...H has never communicated anything I was or was not doing or anything specific I did or have done. I wish he would - I wish he would just lay it all on the table - I could deal with it so much better! Think about this when you consider what to tell your wife - I think some people hold back in fear of huring the other spouse "to protect them" yet it does not help matters. I feel complete honesty is needed in order to move forward - to know the info, digest it, and decide how to deal with it...<BR>Resentment is a bitter pill - I do not like the way I am feeling right now; I just want some love...I feel my H is emotionally closed and unable to relate at all to how I feel.<BR>You're right - good thing we aren't in a coffee shop!!!!<BR>God bless,<BR>A

Dear Dogbert,<BR>I appreciate your checking in on me...<BR>To answer your question, yes, I would rather have complete honesty - all cards on table. I wish my H had laid all the cards on the table before he had an A so we could have tried to "fix" things and work on them. I always want to know what is going on, and feel I can handle that rather than dishonesty and half-truths...<BR>Can you lay them out in a gentle, concerned way???<BR>Well, last night I tried to initiate and got turned down flat...said, let's wait til the a.m. Well, this a.m. I was told, "I really don't feel like it -I am too stressed, depressed" then he proceeded to talk about his work situation which I know has him down. Yet, here is my rub - last winter when he was in year-end and having to work as many hours, tired, stressed, etc, is when he was having the A!!! I just don't know... as I said, I am going to "observe" and determine if I can continue in this m... I am tired of being last...Yet, I am also the type who has to feel like I have really tried, and I really do not believe in divorce, respect my m vows...<BR>You are sweet to check in on me...I do appreciate it. I usually am not this "down"- I really am a fun person, love to laugh, dance, play, have fun? These past few months have done a number on me... I hate sounding so "down" etc.<BR>God bless,<BR>A

Hey, Dogbert,<BR>Sorry, life has been hectic and I haven't been on here...<BR>What a good post - thanks, I just got through first page and want to continue reading when I can. Are all of you still posting on it?? Would love to jump in...<P>I don't really know the reasons for my H's A except that he tells me he was unhappy - with me, and our d's - life was very stressful with a move, new job, etc. He felt guilty about moving us, etc. And, he was "single" for 4 months before we moved to be with him, which I don't think helped things. I think she laid on the flattery, etc - she is younger, and I feel mlc played a part, too. I am just still in the dark about SF - I am not sure it was a primary factor, I don't know. What is really bothering me is that I have asked him to talk, and help me understand his "lack of desire" - I wrote him some emails last week, nice ones, trying to explain my feelings. He didn't read them til yesterday - got home from work late, and of course "too tired to talk." Tells me to "relax" - he thinks we are doing great. Well, our definition of "great" sure doesn't jive. We were going out Sat night - I had on a lace teddy/thong, with garters and hose. The only reaction I got, was "oh, hot lady" (and this was after walking by several times, ie, it took awhile for him to even acknowledge) - I would think most men would at least try to touch their wife when she is dressed up like that. My frustration level is maxing out - the hurt and rejection is awful. I know he is stressed at work, and I know he is working long hours and is tired, but the point I made to him is that he was in a similar situation at work last jan - march, yet obviously he made time for OW, and must not have been that tired!! I just don't get it, and not talking to me is making things really bad for me. He refuses to acknowledge or recognize the fact that I need more...we cannot just ignore this or our m will not survive. I have told his this, and I get "relax"...<P>AAAARRRGGGHHHHH---<BR>Why does it have to be so complicated??? Why can't two married people try to meet each other's needs and try to make spouse happy????<P>Thanks for letting me vent, as usual...<BR>I will continue reading other post...<BR>Always, A

"Why can't two married people meet each others needs?"<P>Because one of them is not paying any attention. That would be you Ann. You are not listening to a thing he says.<P>He is telling you to relax and what do you do? You rachet up your emotions even higher, your needs higher.<P>You are reading things into events that may have never occurred or where never really thought about. Yes, I know you want to know what is going on here and what went on. However, you are doing yourself no good comparing yourself to a ghost.<P>He wanted her but he doesn't want me. That sort of stuff. It is very clear he wants you or he wouldn't be there. You have just listed a large list of reasons why his sex drive is probably shot right now. Do you want me to repeat them??<P>1. He is over worked.<P>2. He is stressed by his job.<P>3 He feels guilty for moving you and D<P>4. D is acting up because of the move (or at least he perceives that to be the case)<P>5. He feels extremely guilty about the affair.<P>6. He is under tremendous pressure to succeed in this job, because if it is turns out even just OK, then the move was for nothing and he will feel even more guilty.<P>7. He is depressed.<P>8. His W won't let up about the affair. She keeps bring it up directly or implicitly by taking offense if he doesn't respond as she expects. Example, she dress in an alluring fashion and he responds but not fast enough for her. <P>Annc, he is telling you what we all have been telling you. Back off and relax. You are not in a competition for your H. You have him. What has to happen is that you, him, and the marriage have to heal. They have to heal from the move, the behavior of your daughter, and his affair.<P>This all takes time. It takes people willing to take the other at face value. I know this is very hard for you. I know you want things fixed NOW. I know you want explanations for what has happened. But things cannot get fixed NOW and there may be some areas where there is now rational explanation for what has happened.<P>Annc, to coin a phrase: relax. Seriously, calm down and let everyone get back on their feet emotionally. You H is in a big hole right now. He needs time to figure out how to get out of it.<P>I sure hope something I have said will make sense to you.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL,<BR>Everything you say always makes sense - I am just an emotional mess, I guess. There is one point, though - he was stressed, overworked, feeling guilty, etc. last winter - those are reasons for him not wanting sex now, as you said, yet he had an A when he was feeling all those things. I know I seem dense, but that is what I am struggling with - same reasons, yet he did want sex - with someone else. That is what I am not understanding - he was working even longer hours then, too. ??? I never once suspected...<BR>OK, I told H today I am tired of the one way communication and that I am backing off.<BR>I am tired, frustrated, hurt, resentful, and I plan to take care of me - and d's. As you have been telling me - I guess I am in the anger phase??<BR>No one gets a manual on how to act if this ever happens, and it is so hard... what makes it especially hard for me is that my H won't talk, communicate, or go to counseling. So, I am left with wondering, imagining, etc - not good. I like to have the cards on the table... I probably need to take the personality test - my guess is that I am an extrovert and H is an introvert.<BR>Do you know the link for it?<BR>God bless you...<BR>A

Annc,<P>Have you finished reading that book I recommeded for you?? If not reread it. You will get your answers in time. As for why your H had the affair when he was under such stress. I can only guess, but here it is.<P>He was feeling absolutely dead inside. He was grasping for something to make him feel alive, some excitement, feel wanted, even some pain. It couldn't be you because you were already part of his life and he was dead.<P>I'll go even farther. This whole thing isn't about you at all. It was about him trying to feel something. He had the hole in his soul, and he wanted desperately to "feel" something. So when I keep telling you to calm down, I mean it. I doubt it is really about you. However, he has caused you great pain and he sees that now.<P>He gets to add guilt to the list of problems. But he is telling you something else. He is starting to feel again, but he needs time to sort things out. He doesn't trust himself right now and he is afraid he will hurt you more, by letting you in. I doubt he really understands why the affair happened, especially now; after the fact.<P>Annc, you are running around trying to fix something, that cannot be fixed, it must be healed. Do you understand the difference. I can fix a broken computer, but an incision needs to heal. His wound is an incision as is yours. He cannot fix himself or you. You cannot fix him or yourself.<P>So I keep saying T&P for a reason. This is less about you and more about his issues. It would seem from what you have written that he is healing. Sit back, and enjoy what you have. Smile Ann, enjoy the beauty of nature, enjoy the presence of another human being who does want to be with you (that would be H, in case you are interested. ). <P>Engage him in life, but don't try to fix him. Trying to talk about issues is trying to fix him. Trying to get him to have sex, is a try at fixing yourself. Let it come to you Annc, you won't have to chase it. <P>I know you are frustrated. But much of it seems to be self-induced, because you want to fix the situation. Let it heal. Plan A is about you healing and growing. He will come around. Hold his hand from time to time. Snuggle in bed, but don't ask for more.<P>I can tell you from experience , that my sex drive goes way down when I am under stress, especially if lack of sleep is also present. When I was very depressed it was down. The only saving grace is that my W, has no sex drive . But it wasn't really, I came here to sort all of this out.<P>So I have some idea what your H may be going through. I also know what you are going through, wanting a spouse who desires you and not having that. But Annc, you can make things better for the both of you, if you let things heal and do little things that let him know you forgive him. And do things that make you happy.<P>Keep it up. Hope this helps some.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Dear JL and Dogbert - <BR>Thank you for your help and encouragement!! Will try to do a better job of praying, and need to finish the book...<BR>Guess the hurt is seeping out of my wounds - time to get on with things...<BR>I am going to just observe for next few weeks - will keep you posted as to any progress...<BR>What you say makes a lot of sense JL - you are so right, I am a fixer, and I need to accept that this is something I probably can't fix...<BR>Keep in touch...<BR>God bless, A

[I am a fixer, and I need to accept that this is something I probably can't fix...<P>I the oldest of 7 kids, I was always the one everyone turned to to make things work out between us. I worked so hard and even expected my wife to help hold my family together(3 brothers, 3 sisters, mom and dad deathly ill). I finally came to the point where I knew it wasn't my JOB the fix IT.<BR>I should have made it easier for me and my wife and kids, and let others work at it if it was important to them. All the time and effort I wasted. Be good to yourself and your daughter, and husband, you will feel better.

Hey, JL, Dogbert, Daniel, et al,<BR>Thank you again for your help...<BR>Took youngest D to counselor yesterday. Oldest views me as weak for staying in m, this one thinks I am "stupid" - said that her Dad doesn't treat me very nice, never does anything for me or acts like he loves me. Whereas, I on the other hand, give him cards, notes, tell him I love him, etc - that I am "too much in love." Both said they would not stay...<BR>OK - out of the mouth of babes... maybe they are right - as I have been saying for past few months - maybe this just isn't the "place" for me. Had a talk with H this weekend: said A was not motivated by sex - he was unhappy with me, etc.; said he had been calling that service where you can talk to women because he was "bored"-would not "own up" or discuss anything else; said that he is not the "Harley" ideal - can't live up to it; "said" he loves me - bought me a necklace last May - he "has" done stuff for me - doesn't see need to buy cards or flowers, even though I told him I need it - for reassurance, etc. Wants to "lighten up" not discuss, just have fun - let things happen - let sex be spontaneous; thinks I am putting too much importance on it - it should "just happen" ...<P>Well, I am sitting back - taking care of myself and D's - wondering about this "prize" I have "won" - time will tell about "staying" - <P>A

Ann...<P>I don't think I've replied to you on this thread, tho I stop in every now and then.<P>Let me just give you a brief POV...<P>First, it is not wrong for you to want him to meet your needs. But, it probably isn't going to happen til his depression & stress lift. You are getting all upset bcs this guy isn't doing "his share", but right now that's kinda like asking someone who is recovering from a heart attack to go climb Mt Everest.<P>Secondly, you seem to be having strong doubts about whether to stay in the marriage or not. You need to decide this...the indecision is what is killing you.<P>Think back to what he was like before the affair...was there a person there that you truly loved & enjoyed? If that person came back, would you want to be married to him? If the answer is no, then save yourself some trouble. <P>If the answer is yes, however, decide that you will allow him some time to heal. Be caring & supportive of him, but direct 90% or so of your energy to YOU...get involved in some things that you love, that you can find some fulfillment in. Keep going to counseling, for YOU, not just for the marriage. Accept that you are not going to have him meet some needs for a while...but look at it as a temporary thing, due to circumstances beyond his control...not as a willful lack of care for you. Oh, if you decide that you are taking this latter route, simply tell your daughters & anyone else who criticizes your decision that sometimes it is important to support someone you love, especially when they are least loveable.<P>Hope some of this makes sense. Good luck.

Kam,<BR>I do appreciate your input...<BR>I basically told my H how I feel today re meeting each other's needs - that I am going to see how things go, then assess what is best for me, etc. Low and behold, he called and told me that he will work on it!!! That is all I can ask for now, and need to give him the chance - at least he is "giving" more than before, was not upset by my voice message, and agreed to try. Time will tell, but this is progress, I feel...<BR>Just getting him to say he agrees is a major accomplishment...<BR>Wish us luck, and keep posting to me,<BR>Thanks to all of you - wouldn't be able to keep my sanity without all of you!!! <BR>Talk to you later,<BR>A

ps, Kam,<BR>You make great sense!!!<BR>Just read your profile - mind if I ask where you are in texas?<BR>Take care,<BR>A

Ann...<BR>I am glad he is willing to try to meet your needs. Don;t be surprised if it is pretty on/off for a while...he may honestly be trying yet have times he will fail pretty spectacularly, esp. for a while, and so you will still need loads of patience. Still, his agreeing to try IS progress!!!<P>Oh, you asked...I am in Dallas.<P>Take care--<P>Kathi