Our D left for the weekend without telling us and we didn't know where she had gone!!!!!!! It was h... - she came home at 10:30 Sun. night. H refuses to go with me for counseling for our D!!! She is in major crisis. When I mention that what has happened in past few months has contributed to D's crisis - he says, "I am not going there. I want to move on!" Then, he suggested to me this am that maybe I should get away for a weekend!! OK, last time he encouraged me to get away was so he could be with her!! I don't have good feelings about his suggestion due to memories it stirs up... then, he tells me I need to lighten up, that I am too heavy, that he just wants to move on. That I am trying too hard to have fun!!! That he doesn't want to discuss working on our relationship right now (- he has done nothing that he agreed to do.) When I wanted to snuggle last night because I need affection, he pushes me away and says he is claustrophobic! I don't feel he really wants to work on this m! What is going on? I am getting angry, frustrated, and I feel like I am in this on my own - he needs to go with me to counselor for D!!! I might as well be on my own... What do I do now...is plan b my option?<BR>A

so sorry to hear about this hurtful episode. Think about your D first because she is very hurt. Get help for her and keep her feeling secure about your love for her.<P>Your H is behaving badly and I weep for your rejection. Please try to sit back and analyse the situation and then decide what will work. <BR>You would know whether OW is still in the picture, right?<P>May God help you at this time in your crisis. Please take care of D first - she is the innocent one.

Whether he will go or not, take your daughter to counseling...it would be better if he went, but if not, you do what you can. <P>I am so sorry you are going thru all this...<P>Kathi

Hi Annc,<P>Well, lets do a little thinking here shall we. First, you have two problems and yes they are related but you are not going to be able to address both of them at the same time. Why? They are two different people.<P>So my advice to you is divide and conquer. Work on your D's issues with or without your H. Don't worry about H, just get D to counselor and start to work on her issues. At this point, it makes no difference if H's behavior pushed these issues over the edge. <BR>Most children of parents having trouble don't act this way. Suggesting that the marriage problems may be part of her issues but they are by no means all of them.<P>So go to counselor with D. Don't worry if H comes or not. You are wasting your energy and focus on that non issue. The counselor is going to need to talk at length with D. If the counselor thinks it is important to get feedback from H, the counselor will ask him. Let the pros do their job. Just let your H know what is happening and make sure he knows he is welcome to join in this.<P>As for your H, he is telling you how he needs your support. Give him time. He is probably still dealing with guilt and is probably very embarressed, especially about how this has affected your D. Give him time and love, he will come around, that is what he is saying.<P>One thing for sure, you know what you are doing doesn't seem to be working. As for the snuggling in bed, let me offer you something to try. Just touch him put your hand on his leg, arm, shoulder, whatever. No more, just make contact, but don't snuggle, don't hug. Make the contact light and even move it around, but just some contact. <P>Why do I say this? Well, yeah he may feel closed in, but he is more likely feeling guilty. He cannot yet return what he knows you need and it bothers him. This is good AnnC, it is good. So give him his space but make that light contact. It lets you know he is there and it lets him know you are there, but it doesn't demand anything of him.<P>If you want a strange analogy, it would be like gentling an animal, a horse, if you will, getting it used to the touch and ready for the saddle. Nice analogy right? <P>Annc, you are causing yourself more pain than you need. You have enough issues to address. Take care of D, she needs your time and attention now. You H doesn't need it so much right now and has said so. This is great, you cannot give the time and attention D, needs and meet all of H's needs also. <P>So quit fretting about something that is good right now. You can work on your marriage by informing H how it is going with D, being pleasant to H, and maybe just a little touch here and there . Go slow AnnC, calm down, and work one problem at a time right now.<P>Your H will come around, just communicate with him, tell him what you are thinking, ask his advice on things, and involve him that way. I suspect in time you will see him becoming more involved in everything, and especially you.<P><B>TIME AND PATIENCE </B>, just keep repeating that AnnC T&P, T&P. And No not TP as in TPing a house. <P>And don't forget to take care of yourself OK?<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Annc,<BR>I'm very sorry for what you're going thru. Your D's issue must be very hard. My H just gotten a little better, so I wanted to tell you what happened. My d-day is 4 months ago, it's about same as yours isn't it? My H still refuses counseling too.<P>I know you read "Light His Fire". So did I. The idea of "making him feel good" almost made me puke at first, but I tried anyway just for the heck of it. One night when he came home, I greeted him w/hugs & kisses w/kids and praised him as if he's a superman. (Remember I was still mad at him, but just covered my anger up for one night, to make him feel important, supported, and loved.) It was too obvious to me but he thought that was the greatest night in last 4 months. <P>Then his attitude softened up a lot. Things turned around since. That made everything easier for ME. It is really for YOU to get over your anger and keep supporting him.<P>Then I read "The Power Of A Praying Wife" by Stormie Omartian. Whenever you want to talk to him about the A, your relationship, or his behavior, DON'T. Start praying for him instead. Talking just puts pressure on him, then he draws back, right? I recommend to read this book. The golden rule is "shut up and pray".<P>I pray for you, your D, and your H.

I had to cut off my last post because of my kids, sorry...<P>Sorry if I sounded so pushy, but I know how mad you are and how frustrated you are, I'm in the same place. Please don't beat yourself up so hard, take a deep breath, maybe it is a good idea to get away for a couple days... Hope you'll see better days very soon.<P>I'm praying for you.

Hi, all,<BR>Well, can't tell you how much your encouragement means to me...<BR>Yes, I agree that H must be feeling major guilt, yet I am ready for him to "grow up" and accept responsibility for his actions - it is what we tell our children for goodness sake! I truly feel that he needs to go with D and I to counselor - Yes, JL, D was acting like this before A, yet this acerbated her situation. H sticking his head in the ground is not helping to "move on." I just want him to deal with reality and help to clean up the mess we are in - don't leave it all to me; I am feeling very overwhelmed. I know I need to be patient, etc, but between H and D I am ready to "flee like the wind."<BR>I have taken D to counseling and I am going on my own - counselor wants H to come, too. I feel he needs to go for D's sake, at least!!!<BR>Good to hear from you, Amy!! I have been wondering and worrying about you!!<BR>Thank y'all for everything!!<BR>Love, <BR>A<p>[This message has been edited by Annc (edited August 30, 2000).]

Ok, don't know if anyone is checking back, but I need help again understanding - back to the sex thing.<BR>I have been turned down twice this week - H "too tired," etc. It really hurts, and made me lb last night "that I bet he never turned her down." H feels that once a week is plenty - it is always on his terms as to when. This is not a new issue in our marriage as I have said before - as I told him last night - here we go, I get turned down so I stop initiating because it is rejection and who wants to go through that all the time, then we'll go 1,2, 3 months without. I told him this has been a concern of mine for a long time and he will never address it - now he's gone and had it with someone else, and I am really having a hard time dealing with it because he never seems to want it. So, now I am wondering if this is his first A - maybe he has been doing this for a long time. He says it is first, but I wonder - maybe first time he fell for OW... I told him I feel like the H who is always complaining that his W always has a headache. I am just not sure anymore - I guess I am really at the point where I am questioning our m - what is in this for me? do I really want this - same old, same old...do I want someone who doesn't want to deal with and change anything, especially our sex life. OK, please help me understand - how could he make time for her, probably more than once a week, but not for me? That is one of the questions he refuses to answer, too, - how many times a week did they meet? and where? - in fact, he refuses to answer any.<BR>I may be obsessing, some of you may think - but I am under a lot of stress right now and really questsioning this whole thing...my immediate reaction after D was to save our m, now I am not so sure...<BR>Help...<BR>A

Work on your self esteem. Get a new mindset. Make yourself desirable - smell good, be perky and happy, dress well, nice hair - for yourself.<P>If H notices, great, if not, at least you have a positive outlook and mindset. <P>The rejection is hurtful and the not knowing anguish. But you need to focus on yourself and your daughter and hopefully slowly your husband will begin to appreciate that you have a positive mindset of your own.

Annc,<BR>I'm cheking back a lot... doesn't mean I can help you a lot I wish I could!<P>I can only imagine how hard it is for you... Sounds like it's continuous thing for you. I got turned down a couple times when my H was really in the fog. It hurts, I know that. Intimacy is really something works to heal your pain... I'm really sorry for you. I guess your H just need time to get the OW out of his system (Dr. H says 6 months?) It's not your fault at all, remember that, and he'll come around.<P>Meanwhile, I wonder if you'd like to try something like this... My H still somewhat closed sexually to me, he's afraid of something, not really open with me, even though we do have sex. He's been that way maybe from the beginnig of our m (when we're dating it was great as you can guess...) I really think it has something to do w/his past, but he won't come to counseling. My counselor suggested a series of videos, many therapists use as part of sex therapy, even for sexually abused people, but you can't tell that from the videos at all, they're just meant to be educational. They're called "Better Sex Videos" (3 tapes) by Sinclair Institute.<P>I bought them online (www.intimacyinstitute.com), watched them alone at first because I didn't know how to tell him, then my H accidently found them and joined me watching (he was surprised that I bought something like that and must be curious). It's nice 'cause H doesn't have to face somebody else for his (our) problem. <P>There is one couple in the video that W has more sex drive than her H. They don't have the A problem so you'll have to modify the solution a little, but it might be something good for both of you... I think the message is "relax" and "be playful" but I have to slow down on my H because he'll shut me out if I push too much that way.<P>Sorry, got to go, my kids bugging me again. Hang in there, I keep you in my prayers.

I went to our counselor yesterday and we discussed D's issues - we are trying to get her additional help, ie, evaluation for ADD, etc. She says D is screaming out for attention and that she wants my H to come with us...<BR>She also says I am finding my sense of self and that H and I need to have a discussion re what was missing for each of us - then, assess whether we can and/or will be able to meet those needs. I am concerned that H is maintaining a "facade" - that this is his "job" and he is doing what is necessary for him to "stay" in job rather than working on building a loving, warm relationship. Do you know what I mean? If it is just a "job" then that is unfair to me - he needs to be honest so I can make a choice if this is how I want my m to be for rest of life; yet, if he is hampered by guilt right now, and that is preventing him from "moving forward", then it is worth trying. I need to know if he is willing to make some changes to make our m better...I have demonstrated that I am willing and that I can. Now I need to know if he can... that's fair, isn't it? If our m is going to contiune with him being emotionally "closed" and our sex life remains same, I am not sure it is what I want.<BR>Yes, I have to work on D's issues and take care of her right now, which I am. Yet, it is very frustrating for me to be "alone" in this - I still feel he needs to go to counselor for D - to show his support and love. Counselor says D also feels betrayed... I still feel acting like nothing happened is damaging and unhealthy for his family. It has been 4 months since Discovery - shouldn't we be further along? talking? communicating? have a plan? OK, I am told T&P - yet, I am watching things fall apart around me and I am feeling like I am carrying the weight of the world right now...<BR>Plus, to add to stress, I started a new job, and house is torn up due to remodeling...<BR>Calgon take me away!!<BR>God bless, A<P>Amy, thank you for video recommendation - I will look into it.<BR>JL - TPing a house - HA!!! please bear with me - as I said, I hoped to be a little further along right now and I am stressed...<BR>

PS - <BR>Yes, Dogbert, I agree that guilt is working here...and yes, D, wants to talk about it - wants to know "details" - if sex was involved which I don't think she needs to know... it is awful!! Some days I just want to "shoot" OW for calling our house!!!! No, I would not do that - but....<BR>However, in order to help us, H needs to get over it and realize that acting like nothing happened is very unhealthy. I feel he is very emotionally closed - always has been, yet I feel he needs to make an effort to work on this because not communicating his feelings got us in this mess. And refusing to go to a counselor will not get us the help he needs to work on it...I also feel like he doesn't want anyone to "get into his head." - to know what he is thinking, and that is what is worrying me tremendously!!<P>Hope all is well with you..<BR>A

Annc,<P>As you well know, I am not a counselor, but do you think your H's reluctance with D is somehow attached in his mind to you and his dealing with the marriage? Not a very clear question,but let me come at this a different way.<P>Perhaps you could speak to him about D and how much she needs him. But make it clear that by helping her it says nothing about his feelings for you and the marriage. In other words, she needs help whether he wants to work on the marriage or not. And they are indeed separate problems.<P>My guess is that he feels guilty that she is acting out and he is taking all of the blame on himself. So going to face the "wrath" of the counselor who is going to tell him what a horrible father he is, doesn't float his boat. He is avoiding this conflict.<P>Now you may say, that you know that the counselor won't get on him or that it isn't his fault, but he doesn't know that. <P>Annc, sit down with H and really talk with him, not about affairs, or sex, or anything. Tell him straight out your D loves the both of you, you love him, and your D needs his support right now. Talk with the counselor about this perhaps she/he can come up with a strategy for getting him involved.<P>Oh, and by the way if the D thing is really stressing him out, you won't be getting any tonight. . Seriously, if all of this is playing on his mind, I doubt seriously if he could respond to you even if intellectually he wants to. He is carrying a lot of guilt.<P>So Annc focus on D as I said before, don't worry about the marriage. If H is needed let him know. Let him know he isn't under attack. He will probably face some rejection from D, and that will be tough, but it is time to help D.<P>Hope something I said helps.<P>God Bless You and Your Family,<P>JL

JL,<BR>As always, everything you say is helpful - and makes sense. I do plan to sit down and talk to him this weekend - if he doesn't try to shut me up...he is so good at advoidance and it is extremely frustrating for me. If he doesn't want to talk about something he won't, period. He avoids talking about anything unless it is "superficial" - he avoids conflict - he avoids intimacy - he avoids everything!!! The problem is that I can understand he is feeling guilty and "bad" but avoidance is hurting the rest of us and our recovery. Isn't there a point when you have to "face the music?" What is he modeling for our Ds? You can't run away from your problems and expect them to go away. And, I am growing weary of handling it all - I didn't create this mess and need his help!!!!!!!!! He is withdrawing love units at a rapid rate!!!<BR>Thank you for your help.<BR>God bless, A <BR>PS - Intimacy? I am losing my desire - he is killing it anyway, so I probably won't be making any moves... I need to focus on D right now...I feel like "the heck with him!" Aren't I awful?

Hey, all,<BR>Well, H and I finally did the EN survey yesterday - very interesting. His top 5 are admiration, family commitment, financial support, honesty and openness, and domestic support. Sexual fulfillment and affection are down at the bottom! OK - this is what I have been struggling with - if sex is a low need, then why go have sex with someone else. Still would like answers... Also, he told me yesterday that he doesn't think he can make me happy - so how do I take that, and am wondering what to do - where is this headed?<BR>Thanks, A

Hey, all,<BR>Well, H and I finally did the EN survey yesterday - very interesting. His top 5 are admiration, family commitment, financial support, honesty and openness, and domestic support. Sexual fulfillment and affection are down at the bottom! OK - this is what I have been struggling with - if sex is a low need, then why go have sex with someone else. Still would like answers... Also, he told me yesterday that he doesn't think he can make me happy - so how do I take that, and am wondering what to do - where is this headed?<BR>Thanks, A

AnnC,<P>Guess what? I would bet those needs reflect how depressed he is. If you two get back on track, I'll bet the sexual needs will climb up the list abit. Of course he is partly right, he cannot make you happy. You have to do that, but is he telling you something else?<P>I have been talking with you for awhile and I am beginning to fog over abit, age you know. But if you used to LB him a good bit or just went on your way in things, then he may be saying, that he felt he never made you happy and doesn't understand how he could now.<P>You can solve this problem. It is the Plan A approach. You need to tell him what you are thinking now versus what you used to think. He may need to see that you have adopted a different perspective on things and the marriage will be different. You see if he is a conflict avoider, then he sure does want to avoid those LB's.<P>Get him focused on your D right now, Not the marriage. If the he focuses on D, of course he will be focusing on the marriage but in an indirect way. It will allow you to work as a bit of a team without you "working" on the marriage. Gentle contact right now.<P>Is he on meds? You might want to check on that, if he is maybe a slightly different kind might help.<P>Annc, he is working on this. He did the needs, you are seeing slight movement, but it is in the right direction. Take heart your efforts are definitely helping.<P>Keep up the good work.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

I have been following this thread and my heart aches for my sisters who are dealing with this PAIN. Many years ago (about 22) my H began acting stranger and more distant that usual---he had always been intimacy and conflict avoident--but this was worse. He seemed to be trying to provoke me into wanting a divorce. I didn't want one so I just pretty much played dumb and kept on behaving my regular wifely way. He eventually told me that he wasn't sure he loved me and probably never really had. I was a lady (don't know how I did it) and responded with "well,that certainly is a sorrowful thig for you and I don't see how you have hidden this for the past 23 years, but I am glad you have told me now and I will see a lawyer Monday morning and file for a divorce, and I want you to know that I am so grateful for the 23 years you have given me--in your place, I don't think I could have behaved as fine as you have. I have loved you and still do so things have been pretty good for me--I'd rather be the one who loves than the one who is there just doing a "job". So I want to compliment you on the admirable "job" you did and thank you for your valiant effort. I do want you to be happy too, so I will make no effort to hold you or to make your life hard." I was calm and serene on the outside--but DYING on the inside. He became visibly panic stricken and began to say he didn't want a divorce and bla bla bla---I believed him when he said he just wanted to rebuild our marriage and make it better. This sounded great to me!!! I had been praying for that for most of the first 23 years!! Well, we talked into the night and my calm didn't last and I cried and screamed and ran the emotional gamut. He tolerated my reactions and had plenty of his own. We hugged and cried together and decided to fix whatever was wrong. He became cold and distant when we climbed into bed and said it had been a very emotionally draining day---well, no kidding? BUT_I needed him to hold me and reassure me but he did not. The next morning when I asked him how he wanted to start "rebuilding", he was surly and angry acting, acting as if I HAD BEEN THE ONE TO DO THE HURTING (it was almost like he was trying to get me to think again about divorce and make my offer again--I did not because by this time my angers and fears and anxiety had kicked in and I did not want to be a divorced woman. Well, several years passed with things being at a standstill! I was becoming weak and very insecure and confused. He just seemed rather content, unperturbed and indifferent. I had asked him right way if there was someone else. He had said no. I repeated this question many times and he always said no. I became a different lady--tortured and unhappy and very scared and he became colder and meaner and somewhat emotionally abusive. Things finally came to head when I picked up a message on his machine--it was vague and by no means evidenciary---just sort of like--Hi Joe this is Debby and I am waiting for directions-----and then it trailed off unintellagibly !!!!! I would have thought nothing of it because he got dozens of business calls daily---BUT>>>>the way he acted!!!! SOOOOO guilty!!! Then I suspected--OW!! He still denied it and does to this day. I had that knowing feeling in my gut and I reacted to it and became hell on wheels---got an atty. who promptly froze all the liquid assets and filed for a divorce. A week or so later he was saying all the right things and telling me that he was an innocent man etc and that I should cancel all this silliness and he made lots of promises--all the usual ones--didn't really keep most of them---BUT something did change in him. I came back and we started again---he did seem to be trying about a third of the time, the remainder, he seemed to be sulking, angerizing and sort of like grieving. He would not open up and talk--wouldn't answer questions--all he would say was that it was a mid life crisis and had nothing to do with affairs. We struggled along with no real resolution--me now,either crying and scared and childlike or bitter and waspish and mad as H....! The sex between us never did get right again-- at first this was because he was rejecting me and then, much later, because I stopped wanting him--he had lost my admiration and respect--he was just too much WORK for almost no reward--except financial security. He would not go to counseling and when one of our Ds began acting out at 15/16 years of age, he acted just like your H. I wish now that I had taken a more self loving action---especially after it became clear that he was NEVER going to open up and talk and be honest. We have now been married 45 yrs and I am 61 and he 65. The damage that was done was NEVER repaired because he would not deal with it all honestly. I think my H was willing to stop whatever he was doing to save his face, the kids and THE MONEY but remained MAD AT ME for about 5 years---and then he softened up but by then I was MAD AT HIM and had a rock hard heart. I obsess constantly about all this and am unable to let it go---so many unanswered questions haunt me day and night. My H still denies any wrong doing---but the whole experience, especially the sexual withdrawal and the increased intimacy avoidence etc. on his part created a trauma for me that has become permanent. I would say if a man won't talk, answer questions and reassure his wife and resume sexual relations quickly ,then a divorce might be best. The very idea of the guy who was never that sexual in the first place, seeking it elsewhere--then getting caught or suspected (in my case) and then stopping that, to return to the marriage but rejecting the wife and sulking and grieving etc, making her do all the work of repairing things---practically begging him to love her again, is just ridiculous. I didn't ever think he would do an affair because sex wasn't one of his top priorities---I had always had to initiate it and help him remember to desire it. I am so sorry that I did all that and subjected myself to such pain and humiliation. We get along okay, but I know I deserved a whole, complete life and love like I was giving him. I wish in retrospect that I had made different choices. So, I think that if you know for sure about the affair and your H doesn't come around in six months and become open, honest and genuinely willing to work on your marraige and your child's problems, that you need to move on. My problem was that I didn't know for sure, I could find no real proof and he denied it. If you know for certain I think you are lucky because at least you know what you are dealing with.<BR>This gives you freedom from the not knowing what is wrong--which almost drove me crazy. I hope my story will be of some use to you but even if not, it did me good to tell it. You can not bear the burden of his betrayal, the burden of trying to repair it and the burden of his coldness and stay sane and normal. My heart is with you. Miss Amanda<P>------------------<P>LET THERE BE NO MORE SEASONS OF SILENCE!!!<p>[This message has been edited by MissAmanda (edited September 05, 2000).]

Dear JL and Miss Amanda,<BR>Thank you for your replies!<BR>JL, if you read Amanda's post, this is exactly what I fear! Amanda, it is heartbreaking and I guess I fear what you are telling me - maybe I know in my heart what you are saying - it is what I am afraid may happen. I feel your suggestion about reevaluating in a few months is a good one - I guess I am already consigned to it. I do not want to end up in a marriage in which my H is here to keep up a facade - I fear he is here just doing the "right" thing, not because he loves me deeply. I have decided I am not willing to settle for that - I want to be in love and be loved. Am I wrong to want what he gave OW??? - and in my case, there is definitely an OW. He was affectionate, passionate, loving, etc - gave gifts, wrote love letters,etc. - ok, JL, am I wrong to want this, too? I fear what Amanda is telling us - that things will never be the same - unless H is willing to make the changes, talk, communicate, etc. I am so afraid he doesn't really love me anymore - is just going through the motions. I have decided to concentrate on D's and me -I really can't deal with him much right now. I miss the days he used to get "turned on" seeing me in a bathingsuit and/or lingerie - now, nothing! how long do I put myself through this?? Doesn't he owe me honesty?? He told me this past weekend in a brief comment that he never saw her on the weekends - I know better!!! I heard from a good source that he would come into work to call me, then leave... why does he continue to lie???????????? Amanda, thank you for your story, and please keep in touch - you echo all my concerns and feelings.<BR>JL, you are the best - you try to keep me positive when I wonder if there is anything to be positive about - thank you for keeping me sane!!! About meds - H won't go to counselor, doctor, etc, and doesn't believe in meds!! so no luck there!<BR>Please keep in touch,<BR>Love, A

Annc,<P>Thought about what Amanda posted. And yes, it is not a pleasant situation she is in. But notice something she said. She had chances to make the marriage better but she could not bring herself to reach out to her H. She could not Plan A, when he was receptive and that doomed the marriage as much as his presummed affair.<P>So let us talk about you for a second. You have every reason to expect that your marriage should be more. So does your H. The issue is can more be made out of it? I think so but it is going to take sometime.<P>Yeah I know the old T&P thing again. You are trying to fix something that you cannot fix. You need a different perspective on Plan A and I have just the one for you. Hurting Badly posted a very good insight and I will bookmark it for you so you can read it. I'll put it in a PS. for you.<P>You are right focus on D, but keep talking with H. He agreed to do the EN's test for you and that is a breakthrough. He is working on things Annc, but it will take time for the fog to clear.<P>You know a lot about marriages, and you have resources that Miss Amanda didn't have. If she had had them, I could foresee a different outcome in her marriage. In fact her marriage isn't lost yet, if she really wanted to change it. I'll bet neither she nor H like the current situation.<P>So please read the post I am going to bookmark. You will find it very interesting and I think explain where you should be in Plan A.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<P>PS. Here it is <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/001716.html" TARGET=_blank> Hurting Badly </A><p>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited September 05, 2000).]