Hello again.<BR>Yesterday my H and I went and picked up new wedding rings that we picked out since he thought that I had tarnished the old ones. After that we went and were rebaptized and resaid our wedding vows. We had a wonderful day. He said that he felt really good, and that he felt like a teerrible load had been taken from his shoulders. Today was a different story. He tried to have a good day. He told me that if I would tell him the truth about what happened and why that he would put what happened behind us and start to rebuild. I have told him the truth, and he ways that it just doesn't make sense to him, and that until it does he just isn't going to accept it. A couple of days ago he was really upset about what had happened and he told our 2 oldest childdrenn (10 & 11) that I didn't love them. That if I had cared about them I woulddn't have done what I did. I know that he hurts, and I know that he is mad, but that does not help. I do love my children dearly. I know that I was wrong in what I did and it will take a long time and alot of work to make things up to him, but...The other night he told me to leave so I was going to. Get this, my mother in law has told me that I can come and stay with her if I need to. He has told me that I can not take any of our 4 children with me. He says that I gave up my riiight to be their mother "on the night that I decided to spread my legs". When I started to leave he said that he didn't want me to go, but if I wanted to he would not stop me, but if I did there would be no looking back. I am planning on calling and setting up and appointment with Steve tomorrow. Does he really have good results? How long does it usually take to see some sort of improvement? Thanks for any advice.<P>Jill

I've had 3 sessions with Steve...<P>He is <B>very</B> good!<P>But your husband will have to participate...<BR>...or may require counselin gon his own...<P>Perhaps some additional "spiritual counseling"...<BR>...maybe with the minister(s) who were involved in your rebaptism...<BR>...or other christian ministers.<P>He is hitting a road block on "forgiveness"...<BR>...and can't/won't forgive himself....<P>You might have a hard time "educating" him on it...<BR>...but... if he wants to really make things work... he might check out the following...<BR><A HREF="http://www.divorcebusting.com/forumlinks4.html" TARGET=_blank>Forgiveness is a Gift You Give Yourself</A><BR><A HREF="http://forgivenessweb.com" TARGET=_blank>The Forgiveness Web</A><P><B>Books...</B><BR><OL TYPE=1><BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/034541344X" TARGET=_blank><B>The Art of Forgiving :</B> When You Need to Forgive and Don't Know How</A> by Lewis B. Smedes <BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060674318" TARGET=_blank><B>Forgive and Forget </B>: Healing the Hurts We Don't Deserve</A> by Lewis B. Smedes <BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0785282556" TARGET=_blank><B>The Choosing to Forgive Workbook</B></A> by Les Carter, Frank Minirth <BR></OL><P><B>Links to posts...</B><BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum31/HTML/000076.html" TARGET=_blank>Can I forgive?????</A>…..indy032…..1/31/2000<BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/003319.html" TARGET=_blank>Forgiveness.....</A>…..just_me…..6/5/2000<P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/006615.html" TARGET=_blank>How to rebuild my spouse's trust?</A>…..redman…..8/23/1999<BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum31/HTML/000274.html" TARGET=_blank>Things my husband did to rebuild trust</A>…..HGBrawner…..3/17/2000<BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/002831.html" TARGET=_blank>on knowing the "truth" </A>…..loveWASblind=lWb/popeye…..5/9/2000<P>He sounds like he may be facing some issues of depression...<BR>...any chance of getting him to see a doctor to prescribe some anti-deps?...<P>By all means...<BR>...stay home...<BR>...don't leave...<BR>...he can believe you're going to fight for the marriage...if you stay! <P> <P>Jim

Jill,<P>I've and responded to your earlier posts and I wish I had some great words of wisdom for you. Unfortunately I don't.<P>I guess the "best" thing I can suggest is that your H seek the help of a professional. Not to save the marriage, not to make your life better, and not to "fix" things. He should do this for himself.<P>Obviously he is carring around a tremendous amount of anger at you and your actions. The problem is that he can't " "hate" you because he is still in love with you and the conflicting emotions are tearing him up.<P>Think about it, if he didn't love you he wouldn't care who you have sex with would he? It wouldn't bother him at all if he didn't feel cheated by the person he has committed his life too.<P>Yes I know your goal is to rebuild a marriage but his goal should be to find a way to deal with the hurt and anger. Only then can the two of you start to build anything. That is, if that's what he decides to do.<P>You have to accept the fact that there are many people that can never accept, forgive, and forget something this horrible. Your H may well be one of these people.<P>The only way your ever going to find out is for him to get some proffesional help dealing with his hurt and anger.

Thanks for your advice. I have given my H articles on forgiveness. I really don't think that they help. I am trying to get something setup with Steve, but have had no luck so far. I feel like I am at the end of my rope, like I just can't take any mor of the name calling, the yelling and all of the other stuff that has come along with all of this. One minute my H tells me he loves me and doesn't want me to leave, the next he wants a divorce. He has also told me that I don't deserve any of our children. When he asks why this happened and I tell him he says that I am just making this up. He says to tell him the truth, I do and he says that his gut feelings are that I am lying. I have told him the same thing over and over, the same story. I have also told him that I will not lie anymore because I don't want to live that life any more, and also beecause I know that if I even want there to be a tiny chance of things working out that I can not lie. Toniight he wanted to cal the OM and see if out stories were the same. He has already been over to see him twice. I have asked him not to do this anymore. The OM has told him that it was along time ago and that is really all I know. He also told my H that we had sex 3 or 4 times when it was really only 1. I told my H that I was afraid that since he told him that part differently that I was afraid that other things would be different too, and that then he wouldn't beleive me again (still). I realize that what I did was wwrong, both morally and socially. I should have tried harder with my H, but at that time he yelled alot. He was hard to talk to. If only I could go back in time. I love my H so much and really want this to work. I don't want to leave, but the kids are starting to ask us if we are through fighting yet, and would we please stop. He calls me names in front of them. I guess I feel it would be easier for them if I were to just leave. This is all so unfair to them.

I know you guys have started (hopefully) with Steve already. I just wondered after re-reading all your posts if you noticed how many times you say "but" after saying you understand how your husband feels. I know he is angry but, I know he is hurt but.... <P>We are 7 months into recovery. Thank goodness my husband has chosen to stick it out through every name calling, screaming, demanding that he leave. I've even called attoneys, yet he refuses to budge.<P>He has some sense of how deeply he has hurt me. Have you truly cultivated that sense? Some of the other posts have asked questions about discovery, etc. You haven't answered those. I don't believe that you will recover if you are not able to empathize with your husband and recognize the damage you have done. Perhaps irreparable damage.

"I have given my H articles on forgiveness."<P>Did he ask you for them or are you doing it so he will forgive YOU and make life better for YOU?<P>"I really don't think that they help."<P>And there is a clue in that, he isn't ready to forgive you!<P>"I feel like I am at the end of my rope, like I just can't take any mor of the name calling, the yelling and all of the other stuff that has come along with all of this."<P>How to say this in a nice way? YOU caused this, not him. YOU sound like a convict crying that he can't stand being in prison. What did you have in mind, "I'm sorry" and it all goes away? Not in this lifetime.<P>"He says to tell him the truth, I do and he says that his gut feelings are that I am lying."<P>And this is a suprize? Gee, you lie to him and to God in your marriage vows and then you don't understand why he doesn't believe you. Well DUH. (Something you should know, when one spouse is suspect of the other spouse about an affair, they are almost always right.)<P>"Tonight he wanted to cal the OM and see if out stories were the same. He has already been over to see him twice. I have asked him not to do this anymore. "<P>Why not? If I were in his shoes I would want to find the truth too. If you aren't afraid of the truth, why worry about your H talking to him? The answer seems obvious to me, I'm betting it is to your H too.<P>"He also told my H that we had sex 3 or 4 times when it was really only 1."<P>Let's see, the affair goes on for a long period of time and you claim you only had sex once. The OM is honest enough to say that it was several more times than that. And you still can't see why your H is angry, tired of being lied to, and doesn't trust a word that come out of your mouth. Again, DUH!<P>"I guess I feel it would be easier for them if I were to just leave. This is all so unfair to them."<P>What a load of BS, easier for them no, easier for *YOU* yes.<P><BR>I'm sorry to be so blunt but every time I read one of your posts it just makes me wonder what is really going on in your head.<P>I know I hurt him, BUT. I know what I did to him was wrong, BUT. I know it's causeing problems for the kids, BUT. I know, I know, I know, BUT, BUT, BUT. BUT I don't want to pay the price!!!<P>When I read your posts all I see is a list of excusses for your actions. My H yelled at me, etc. YOU could have sought counceling, you could have tried to work out the problems, you could have seperated, you could have filed for a divorce. What you did CHOOSE to do was to cheat on him, your family, and your marriage vows. And now you want to sit around boo hooing because he isn't falling all over himself to forgive you.<P>Look, I'm not one to call someone a liar. However, your story just doesn't "fit" with what I have seen of human nature. I doubt if it fits the facts to your Hs satisfaction either. Now add this to the fact that you lied to him to have the affair, and then lied to cover it up, is it any wonder that he doesn't believe you?<P>You say you want him to forgive you, he can't, he's still waiting for the FULL truth to come out.<P>Quit blaming him for *YOUR* cheating and lying, Quit trying to "sugar coat" what you did. Quit with the "I'm so hurt" act.<P>My best advice; Grow up, take responcibility for your actions, be TOTALLY HONEST, and try starting to understand what it is you have really done and the pain you have caused.

MUDD,<P>Country Guy, has just gone through some very trying things and he has been a little harsh with you. BUT, I think you will see if you look that he is pretty much on target.<P>My recommendation is to sit back a bit. And think if I were in my H's shoes and found out that my W had an affair and didn't tell me for 4 years (I do remember this right don't I?), what would I be feeling like? What would I do? <P>MUDD the anger comes from the pain. He does want revenge. It isn't right but he thinks that will stop the pain. It won't we know that. He wanted to recommit the marriage. He still loves you, but he is having a difficult time squaring his love and trust with what happened. <P>You have known about this for a long time. You have very likely come to forgive yourself for it. God has too. All of that is good. But you have had 4 years, to deal with this. How did you feel the first 6 months after the affair was over? How did you feel at the one year mark? My guess is not so good, because you did confess to your H. It has taken time for you to address all of this.<P>Why wouldn't you think it won't take time and a lot of pain on your H's part to do the same? The Harleys and other say it takes up to two years for a marriage to rebuild once an affair is discovered. You have had time to learn to love your H again. You obviously didn't when the affair was going on.<P>He loves you so the pain is hugh. You love him so his words and anger hurt alot. This will take time. <P>As for the truth, the OM may well be lying. He may want some revenge on you, or on your H for something. He may be telling the truth.<P>Your H doesn't know, but at this point he cannot envision that the OM wants to hurt you or him. So he must be telling the truth.<P>MUDD, your H doesn't know what to think. He cannot trust what you say and he cannot trust that you love him now. He knows you obviously didn't during the affair. No one would do that to someone they love.<P>Yes,he has anger. He will need to moderate it. But you will need some patience here. You may need to make sure you are meeting his needs. You will also need to draw a line about how he treats you. He has every right to be angry, but not to abuse you. Explain that to him.<P>As you hang on, the pattern frequently reported is that the dips in the rollercoaster get further and further apart. I suspect that will be the case in your situation as well.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL,<P>Your right, I'll try to do a better job of expressing myself without letting the bitterness seeping in.<P>Thanks for the heads up, sometimes I need it more than anything else.<P>Country Guy

Country Guy,<P>No problem. You are an asset here and do get down to the point. I personally find it very refreshing and I think the people you post too find it very useful.<P>How are you doing? Haven't heard much about the situation. Is it clearing up? Hope so.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Counry Guy,<BR>You are right to some extent. I know that he is hurting, and he is hurting deeply because of me. No, I don't want to leave the relationship that we have now. Back then I would have if I had been strng enough, but I wasn't. Today I love my H more than I ever thought it possible, He does realize that. Things are going better for us. My biggest thing is that I don't like the nasty name calling, although I can deal with it unless it is in front of our children. I don't think that is necessary. If this is what they are going to have to listen to I do think that it would be better for them if I were to leave. The name calling seems to be stopping for the most part now. My H asked me to write up custody papers on our children. This would give him full custody of them if I ever betray him in this way again. It kills me to do this. My kids are my world, but he says that this will show him that I am committed to this relationship. It is the only thing of value that I have and can offer to him. What do you think? Thanks for your advice. Iven the harsh stuff. He says that he is willing to forgive me, and we are working on that. I have a question. If and when he does forgive me, how do I forgive my self? I am having a real hard time with this. Is this usual? I really, and I do mean really feel bad actually awful is a better word about wht I have done.<P>Thanks!

MUDD,<P>I believe that your H asking for custody papers makes sense: To him. But it is not good for you. <P>Let me illustrate, say he continues to call you names and belittle you in front of the children or other people. Just how long do you think you will be able to stand that before you leave. But if you leave, you lose the children. This is unacceptable to me, and I am a man.<P>No one should have that power over the other in a marriage. If he insists on this, then tell him no and you will see him in court. You can fight for the children. Since he is a male, he will lose in all likelyhood, because your adultery will not really matter in matters of custody.<P>What your H has to realize is that what you did was wrong... very wrong. However, it does not give him the right to abuse you verbally or physically. It does not give him the right to demand the children. That is what courts are for.<P>What he does have a right to do is hurt, leave you and try and get custody of the children, or swallow is pride and loss of trust in his wife and try and make the marriage work. <P>Sadly, those are his only options. <P>None of them seem very appealing right now, but with time I believe the last option will be the best. Do your best to make sure that option is the best for him.<P>As for the name calling in front of the children, it is time to draw boundaries. Tell him you won't tolerate it and if it continues the marriage is over, it will be believe me. Don't sign that custody paper.<P>If he claims it means that you don't love him, look him in the eye and tell him " I do love you. I just don't trust you." If he asks why, point to his behavior and how intolerable it really is. Do this in a cool non-LB way.<P>I am sure you will get a strong reaction but what he has to understand is that he faces losing you and the children. And he will get to pay for it through child support. <P>It isn't fair, and it isn't right, but that is how it is. <P>Tell him these things MUDD. Ask him to go to counseling with you, to help you. It will help you and I suspect the counselor if he/she is good can get him involved. He has much to lose in this, so do you.<P>Don't sign away your children.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Just a really quick note from somebody that was in your exact position. Do NOT, please, please do not sign custody over. My ex could not/would not forgive my affair. He went out and started his own up within days without my knowing. He too tried to get me to give up custody knowing my position dealing with guilt, frustration, fear. Please, don't do that!

MUDD,<BR>Based on my grief I’ll tend to side with your H in most matters but by no means sign over custody of your children. Neither one of you is in a position to make a sound decision on that issue. Some how you’ll need to express to him that these are helpless children for god’s sake and not pawns to be used in the mess that you’ve both created. Being in your H's shoes I can understand his hurt. I hear you that you feel terrible for what you have done and that you’re sorry. But certainly you do not and may never actually know the feelings of hurt, betrayal, and anguish that the mere sight of you puts him through, even though he loves you. I see clearly that he is trying to portray this and give some of it back to you. Continue to be as tolerant as possible, with out accepting abuse. Set some limits, let him know you understand he will have to express his feelings but the kids need to be off limits period….<BR>

MUDD,<P>Your husbands behavior is becoming inexcusable, affair or no affair. Under NO circumstances should you sign over custody rights to him. His behavior is emotionally abusive, and under the circumstances he should be involved in counseling to resolve his feelings and set healthy personal boundaries on his behavior. He probably also needs to address this reasons and issues you sought out an affair to begin with. Have you both read SAA? That would be a very good place to start, and by all means, if you can setup phone counseling with the Harley's, you'll find it well worth the effort and expense. Good luck and God bless.<P>Regards,<P>Jon

MUDD, you are being manipulated and the tool of choice is the children. Just so you know, I don't think there is a state in the union that would honor any such agreement should you divorce. Custody battles are never that cut and dried.<P>I also doubt it's about his trusting you either. It's simply a way for him to make you feel the hurt he is carrying around inside. Same goes for the name calling. He does it because it hurts you and he knows it.<P>Look I'm not even going to pretend to know how deeply he is hurt. If I were in his shoes I don't know if I could deal with what has happened in your marriage. But I do know that forgiveness takes time. How much time depends upon the people and the situation.<P>With that said, you also need to understand that he needs to make a decision. Forgive and get on with life, or understand he can't and move on. As it stands he has a built in reason/excusse for every display of anger and mean action.<P>Somehow you need to sit down with him and tell him YOU can't deal with the situation and it must change one way or the other. Somewhere deep down inside he knows he can't hold this over your head for the rest of your life. Ask him if he wants a WIFE or a dog on a leash?<P>I'm not condoning what you did, far from it. But no one can spend every waking hour being sorry for still being alive after having done wrong. All that is going to do is make you resentful and will eventually lead you to hate this person instead of loving him.