I have just discovered this board and hope to get some help or maybe even offer help if I can, in some way to others who are hurting.<BR>This is my story and I will try to keep it brief :)<BR>Ten years ago my H cheated on me...Said it was purely for the sex which he had not been getting from me. (I was pregnant with my second child.)<BR>Although I wanted him back I never stopped punishing him for what he did even though he was genuinely remorseful.<BR>I built walls around me and never wanted...and FEARED any kind of intimacy with him.<BR>It was my defense. Besides, for ten years I tortured myself with images of him and other women while we were having sex.<BR>In the end the only way I could sleep with him was when I had had a few drinks first.<BR>I never trusted him...constantly allowed my demons of paranoia to disrupt our relationship.<BR>I thought though that everything was "ok", that we would just flow along...<BR>It was not...I just found out that while he was on a business trip he saw another woman..wined and dined her. Of course he swears nothing happened but no matter how you look at it SOMETHING DID happen.<BR>All these years he has finally done what I feared he would...broken my heart a second time.<BR>I know now how alone he has felt all these years....I can see how he could end up looking for attention from someone else because I sure as Hell hadn't been giving it to him.<BR>I thought he was just whining about not getting enough sex all these years but I know now that it was the intimacy he was longing for ...from ME, his wife.<BR>He told me he kept trying to tell me but I just wasn't listening.<BR>Also with having four children I threw myself into the role of "mother" and didn't try at ALL to be "me".<BR>I am discovering now that I don't even know who the real "me" is?<BR>I am beginning to move past the "I'm just ugly and anlovable" bit...I KNOW I am young enough and attractive enough to find someone else...but I want my husband.<BR>I want to move forward but the FEAR is overwhelming me right now....I am SO afraid that if I give my heart back to him now that he will break it again.<BR>I FEAR that perhaps it is too late...for him..maybe all these years of me rejecting him have crushed whatever love he had left for me...<BR>I FEAR he will leave again..and forever, before I have had a chance to heal.<BR>He has fears too....That I will do the same as before and never leave the past in the past...He is also afraid that I will do something to get back at him.<BR>We are BOTH just afraid and the future seems so unknown.<BR>We have made the first step...we are together again in the same house and both are saying we want to try and repair the marriage....but HOW do we have faith...how can we be CERTAIN of what we cannot see, what we do not know?<BR>How can we stop ourselves from building up walls to protect ourselves?<BR>I am really frightened because this is the last chance for us.

Hi:<P>Our situations sound similar. My husband was having and affair and told me that he turned to this other woman because his needs were not being filled at home. He told me that he kept telling me and telling me and I didn't hear him. Now that I look back, he was telling me. I am hurt that he cheated, but I can see the steps that lead up to it. My advice is get counseling. I haven't been in the position of forgiving my husband yet and I honestly don't know if I can, but I know that I love him and I pray that we can work this out. Good Luck.

Welcome <B>desertrose</B>...<P>I have a post of general welcome I wish to share with you... <P>It has a lot of quick links to many of the <B>most</B> important MB sites...<BR>Click here ==> <A HREF="http://pages.ivillage.com/re/mb_nsr/MB_GW.html" TARGET=_blank>General Welcome for All New Builders(Newbies)</A><P><B>About your post</B>...<P>Mische is right!!!<P>I would recommend that you have a couple of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7200_phone.html" TARGET=_blank>telephone counseling sessions</A> (~$95US a pop... but well worth it) with <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7010_about.html" TARGET=_blank>Steven W. Harley</A> or Jennifer Harley. Check out the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html" TARGET=_blank>Counseling Center</A>... and for some specifics... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7015_fee.html" TARGET=_blank>Fees for Counseling Services</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7020_sched.html" TARGET=_blank>Scheduling an Appointment</A> (888-639-1639)!<P> <P>Jim

Desertrose,<BR>I think that you and your H are in a much better position than you realize. You have both already started to be completely honest in what you need. That’s half the battle. Listen to Jim, get some counseling started. It will keep you on track and avoid the wrong decisions. Keep the communication flowing. <P>Don’t be frightened that this is the last chance you have, thank God that you have been given this chance. If you take this it and whole hearty commit to it I believe you and your H will find a relationship greater than you have ever imagined.<BR>

I have a very similar experience as yours. My husband told me about his 8 month affair 4 months ago. We are together, we love each other. But, like you, the fear sometimes is overwhelming. I am scared to death that he will hurt me like he did again. We are currently in counseling (are you?) and I hope to ask her eventually if the fear ever goes away. For the most part, I have not (or do not) punish my husband for what he did and I actually have forgiven him for most of it. I, like you, put much more time and effort into being a great mom than I did to being a great wife. He was lonely. He wanted and needed me. And he did express that to me but I just didn't hear it. He knows what he did was wrong and he does feel bad about it (which helps a lot). I am not sure what your husband's attitude is. I just live one day at a time. I am very careful to protect myself now (which I don't like to do but I can't help myself). I verify a lot of the things he tells me to make sure they are the truth (and so far they have been). I am hoping the fear eventually goes away..but I don't know.

Thankyou to you all for responding.<BR>I feel SO much better today.<BR>Last night we went for our first councelling session and it was a very positive experience.<BR>For one, my husband actually TALKED to the councellor... I had had fears that he wouldn't ( as the councellor was male,you know that macho barrier thing?)<BR>Towards the end of the session we had to both fill in this questionarre and it was a real eye opener to me to hear some of my husbands answers.<BR>I just didn't know how ALONE he has been feeling all these years and how unvalidated.<BR>I have to be careful though because I could just shoulder all that guilt and blame myself when the reality is that we have BOTH made very big mistakes.<BR>I AM angry at him...He should have made better choices on how to handle the situation but then again so should have I...<BR>The thing though to keep in sight, as the councellor said was that "blame", "shame" and "guilt" are the three most destructive emotions.<BR>I feel so shaken by all of this because I just never realised how close we were to just losing each other completely through all of our insecurities.<BR>My husband came back into the house last Thursday night but it is really only NOW, as of last night when we talked after an argument that I feel confident and that HE feels confident that we are both in this together and really DO want to make changes.<BR>I am not sure what the catalyst was...<BR>Today I feel like I can relax a little and stop panicking and worrying about how HE feels and that feels sooooo good <BR>

desertrose,<P>You post really touched me. But I think it was very hopeful. If you don't mind I would like to point some things out to you.<P>1. For ten years you protected yourself and punished your H. Did it work out well? You know the answer, it led to exactly what you feared, your H needing and finding someone else to fill those needs because you would not and he finally admitted it to himself.<P>Opening yourself up to healing your marriage is no more risky than protecting yourself. You have tried that and it failed.<P>2. You said your H needs to work on communications. Well we all do, but you also admit that he tried to tell you what he wanted and needed from you and you simply chose not to believe him. So he gave up and went elsewhere or was thinking of doing that.<P>3. From what you have said he wants to love you. From the sounds of your counseling session it seems he is willing to work with you to make this a marriage. Accept his offer with grace, desertrose. You have been given a gift accept it and make it good.<P>4. You feel you are taking too much of the blame. Maybe yes maybe no, but the important thing is that your realize that your actions have lead to your H making a very poor choice. The good news here isn't that you are guilty or due some punishment. The good news is that it is within your power to change things by opening up to him and letting him love you. Of all the people in these situations, yours is one of the best because you know how to fix your part of the marriage.<P>You also suspect that if you do that, your H will work on fixing his part.<P>It seems to me that you should be smiling. Because you both understand how things got to be the way they are and you can indeed change things. You can become the W he wants and he can become the H you want.<P>So where is the risk? The risk is in avoiding the pain and the learning that will follow. If you set out on the obvious course to rebuild, I would like to suggest that your risk of being seriously hurt is much less than if you try and avoid the hurt. <P>Odd isn't it? <P>To avoid pain, you open yourself up and become "vulnerable". To guarentee pain, your try to protect yourself from it. So confusing, but in your case so obvious.<P>Trust yourself, trust God, and your will learn to trust your H. It is clear he does love you and wants your love desparately.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

"Just learning"...thankyou <BR>I am smiling...For the first time in a long long time.<BR>Of course I am still afraid but you are dead right. I tried to protect myself from getting hurt and ...I got hurt.<BR>The counceller told me a story of someone he had seen in the past.<BR>This particular lady was SO afraid her husband didn't love her that she would ring him up ten times a day and demand that he tell her he loved her.<BR>She suffocated him with her fears and her distrust.<BR>After a long long period of time he grew tired of her insecurities because HIS needs weren't being met and he went and had an affair.<BR>When the wife found out she was almost HAPPY because all her fears were finally confirmed.<BR>He said she almost looked triumpant when she said <BR>"SEE, I TOLD you he didn't love me!!!"<P>Well...ha ha. That was almost the same as what I did.<P>Gee, how can us human beings be so dumb? <P>One thing I am confused about right now is whether or not to just put out of my mind completely the possibilities of whether or not my husband is telling the truth about whether anything sexual happened or not.<BR>After all he was in another country, in a glamorous motel....It kills me to think of him being with another person, even taking into consideration all the reasons why.<BR>Should I just try and let it go? After all it was just a symptom of things not being right.<BR>It feels like I am torturing myself by thinking of it, wondering about the real truth, and I DON"T want to do that ( that is what I have done for ten years)<BR>But how do I do that? Just "ignore" these doubts?<BR>I don't want to forever more be asking him to tell me again.."Nothing happened."<BR>Should it really matter?<BR>I just want to do things right for ME this time.<BR>

desertrose,<P>You are asking a very hard question. I will give you what I think is the correct answer, but of course it is easy for me because I am not emotionally attached. So take all of this as just discussion. You will have to reach your own conclusions.<P>If I were in your shoes, I would assume that they had sex. Then I would ask myself, what am I going to do with this information? For example, I know he has had an affair before, so I am not the only one he has slept with. He may not have been a virgin when we married. I don't know if I was ( , I can only go so far being you. ). But let's say I was not.<P>Then what is the issue? The issue isn't the sex is it? It is the broken vows. Adultry is certainly one of the broken vows isn't it.? But, as a very smart woman who posts here, Lostva, also points out, that isn't the only vow that was taken on the day of your marriage. There were vows of love, protection, kindness, etc. Many of those have been broken as well, haven't they? By both of you.<P>So, if I were you. I would back off and think about this. If he had an emotional affair with this woman, does having sex make it worse? Not really, the sex is an act that shows connection, emotional connection. You know the emotional connection was there, even if the sex was not. <P>If you decide you can handle the truth. If you decide that the sex isn't all that important compared to everything else( after all you didn't really want sex with him), how important could it be? I am not being funny here. It wasn't important to you, so why make it important now? Doesn't make much sense does it?<P>What does make sense is that if you two fall in love with each other, the sex act will mean a lot then. It should mean a lot, and if you change to enjoy sex with your H, you have no idea how it will affect him. Men, live to have their partner enjoy themselves during sex. Almost nothing turns them on more and makes sex more memorable than a partner who wants to be with them.<P>So after this long ramble, I would suggest that if I were in your shoes, the sex wouldn't matter. If I came to that conclusion and I was being honest with myself, I would tell my H about how I feel. I would then tell him I can handle the truth, and that in this it is more my curiosity and need for the truth, than my need to be hurt that must be satisfied. So tell me the truth, I welcome it.<P>If you tell him that, then listen to him, don't judge him, and thank him for his honesty. You see you will need to train him that he can be honest with you. You need to train him that you don't want to hurt or punish him. If you do you will find a very remorseful man before you. But a man you can love.<P>Now one last thought about the sex thing. Another very smart woman once posted here about a year and half ago, talked about taking back the memories and making new ones. It was in regard to "triggers" such as sex that set her into a tailspin. With regard to restruants that her H and OW had been in, she and her H ate there. The place became theirs. With regards to sex, they had sex. They did the things H and OW did. They became their acts and she found that she enjoyed some of the things she and H had not tried.<P>You can see that her attitude completely defused many potentially hurtful acts and memories. The irony was that it seemed to defuse them for her and her H as well. Aren't people weird? <P>So desertrose, I don't know if I have made sense to you, but I suggest you think long and hard about what you want to know, can you handle what you want to know, and if you realize you can then tell your H. Then ask him for the truth as best he remembers it. Then thank him for his honesty, and take back those memories. That could be a lot of fun, you know. <P>Hope this helps.<P>God Bless, <P>JL<P>PS: There is one thing I forgot to mention earlier. You must come to realize that your H did not "wine and dine" this woman to hurt you. In fact it probably bothered him when he did it. But he wanted the companionship and the romance in his life. He did it for himself. By the way, how did you find out about this "encounter"?<p>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited November 13, 2000).]

Just learning...<P>You have said a lot of things that make sense to me...and yet have made me realise that really I do not want to know. I cannot handle that , not right now, probably not ever.<BR>I liked what you said about how it shouldn't really bother me anyway because before we met we both had had other lovers...<BR>I feel I should think of our relationship as a totally new one, because that is what it WILL be. <P>Ten years ago I asked for ALL the details...and he gave them to me. What I then did was tortured myself and used them to fuel my rage. That rage eventually just turned into resentment.<P>I don't think I could ask him for the truth and then not use that to put those walls up again.<BR>Perhaps I am being an ostrich burying my head in the sand but really I doubt that he would EVER tell me the truth ( if it IS the truth) because he doesn't want to hurt me anymore than he already has.<P>Its just like....what if *I* had something to admit to him now...Would it help the relationship, help him, for me to be totally honest NOW? Or would it just build those walls...<BR>No...I think I need to focus on him and I, not what he did or did not do with someone else.<BR>Those doubts will always be there because even if he is telling me the truth there IS no way for him to prove it.<P>Two days after he returned from the US ( We live in Australia) I caught him trying to phone this woman on his cell phone....mind you WHILE we were on a family day out at the Zoo ! <BR>THAT hurts.<P>I did ask him if I could phone her myself and ask for the truth but for whatever reasons he would not let me. He said I would only think that he had called and asked her to say what he wanted anyway...which is true <BR>It hurts though to know that he intended on keeping their "friendship" a secret from me...but I guess, as you said, he wanted that attention that I wasn't giving him.<BR>

desertrose,<P>I do think that honesty is very important to a marriage and so do the experts Harley as well as others. However, honesty and knowing what you really don't want to know are two different things.<P>I do believe that you need to work hard at having your H become comfortable with you and being honest. As you said you used his honesty to beat him over the head, and actually hurt yourself, before. However, that doesn't have to be the case now. If you can live without the details then don't ask for them. However, whatever you do need to know, ask him for the honesty and tell him you won't hold it against him as you have done in the past.<P>desertrose, I know this may sound strange, but the fact that he couldn't be honest with you and tell you about himself, his loneliness, and other things, may have hurt him more than it hurt you. He like most humans need friends, close friends, and a spouse is supposed to be that friend. <P>I realize that in Australia there is a slightly different culture to male bonding than the US, but you know one doesn't tell your "Mates" everything, but your spouse that is a different matter. <P>You are very wise to realize that some information you really don't need to have. But one thing you do need in this "new" relationship is honesty, as well as, hugs, kisses, and "sex" .<P>Keep up the good work. You seem to be thinking very well for yourself and that is good.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<P>PS: What part of Australia are you from? I have had the priviledge of traveling through some parts of your country. It is truely a spectacular place.<P>

PS: What part of Australia are you from? I have had the priviledge of traveling through some parts of your country. It is truely a spectacular place<P>I am from Sydney....Earlier this year we travelled around the Outback...an awsome experience and one I shall never forget...Hence my screen name <BR>If I could pinpoint when my "soul" began to give me real warnings that I needed change it was after that trip.

desertrose,<P>This is very strange. I began this conversation with you on one coast of the US this morning and I am now on the other coast finishing up the rest of the day or is it tomorrow. I cannot tell.<P>Sydney is a beautiful city. I have distant relatives that live there. When my family and myself were there, we spent time in Tasmania, Melbourne, Alice Springs, Cairns, Brisbane, and of course Sydney. I have to admit I really like Alice Springs and of course "THE ROCK" . The kids just loved the whole place and would love to go back.<P>Sorry to hear about the blow up with your H. Please sit down with him and talk somemore. And when those feelings of anger sweep over you come here and vent. One poster here developed a few code words with her H, that she used to let him know that things were getting to her. It seemed to help her focus on not LBing, but at the same time reminded the H to take special care of her.<P>Perhaps something like that would help you. What is hard to realize is that both of your are on the same team. It seems that he wants to rebuild and so do you. So maybe you need to view him as a team member (an annoying one sometimes :eek , but still trying to reach the same goal as you.<P>Hang in there and keep talking to your H. The other stuff won't hurt either. <P>God Bless,<P>JL<P>PS You are right. Men often do need the sex to connect and women need to connect to have the sex. I guess that keeps us from breeding like rabbits. <P>

PS You are right. Men often do need the sex to connect and women need to connect to have the sex. I guess that keeps us from breeding like rabbits. <P>LOL ! I guess it seems strange then that we have managed to considerably increase Australias population by having FOUR kids <BR>My husband would sarcastically say that they were the ONLY four times we ever DID have sex <BR>Man, when I think of all the things we have both done wrong...It's a wonder we are still here together.<P>