.<p>[This message has been edited by TeeAreOhYouBeEL.Eee (edited July 25, 2001).]

Tee,<BR>I found the MB site in March and have been posting since then. There are a ton of my posts here. But the bare bones story is:<BR>Married 12 years when D day occurred. We have 1 son, age 11 now. Recently celebrated 13th anniversary. <BR>On D day my H told me he was unhappy, had lost all passion for me, "cared for" me but was not in love any more, hadn't been for since before our S was born (*gasp, choke*) and didn't want to try to restore our marriage. Didn't want to talk about it. Had been lying to himself for years.<BR>Some time previous (4 or 5 years before this) he came home all happy announcing that he had a BestFriend, a woman at work, a confidante, a kind, wise and discreet woman who he turned to for advice. She is married, 3 kids, she and H successful in their fields. I rejoiced with him. Eventually I met her, lovely lady. We met the kids, our S same age as their youngest D. I support his friendship with her, stupidly in retrospect, sure of his love for me. Arrogantly walking along the edge of a cliff. Babysat for our son while he took her out, happy to see him when he came home, all chatty and horny. (*!*) In time I grew to resent the closeness, the cell phone calls, the "I'm going to see her (or her kids) this weekend. You're welcome to come or stay home, it's up to you." Gradually all affection from him to me dried up. One day I found a letter he wrote to her, about a personal conversation we had had. Devastated me. Her H suggested we "all get together and talk things over". Stupidly I said, oh, if everybody is so upset, it's probably nothing, I've been making a fuss about a platonic friendship. OWH suggests I will feel better if "the families" do things togehter. We did. Then the infamous resort hotel weekend, the Other Family and Our Family drive south on the freeway. I sit next to my H, while he talks to OW in her car, non-stop. Lovely. Her H was out of the country, but I didn't realize that until we got to the hotel and checked it. So instead of 2 couples + kids it's BestFriend, Hubby and Wife about Whom Hubby Has Been Lying to Himself For Years trailing around behind the BestFriends who can't stop talking to each other long enough to eat. Cut to 3 years later, the D-day conversation. I connect OW to his lack and loss of love. He denies, denies, denies, goes on the attack. I have become the Wicked Witch of the West, refuse to make plans with this family and want no further contact with his BestFriend.<P>I guess that's it. Comments?<P><BR>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess<p>[This message has been edited by Bellevue (edited November 17, 2000).]

.<p>[This message has been edited by TeeAreOhYouBeEL.Eee (edited July 25, 2001).]

Dear Tee,<P>I logged on to apologize if I made things worse for you by being so cynical about your H's staying out all night. You know him best, you know what is normal for him, and my bitterness and cynicism is partly due to having been so unhappy since the whole truth about our marriage came to light. <P>We are here to help and support each other and I apologize if I hurt you or discouraged you. Please forgive me.<P>ANd yes, there's always someone worse off than us; when I read some posts I can't believe I could endure what some people handle. One of the women here (Karenna) carried a baby with a severe defect, a little boy, who she gave birth to and the little guy was born dead. She continues to post and give compassion to others here, some people are boundless with their generosity. Others here endure their spouses either getting pregnant by OM's or impregnating OW's, but they continue to love and care for their spouses. So my problems look petty in comparison.<P>Sorry, I'm rambling. Just agreeing with what you said.<P>"i have to say thatmy best friend is a guy and we talk daily..... if you set yourself some guidelines and boundries with an OS friend thinggs will be fine.... me and friend have never even suggested at something like flirting..... my h and your h doesnt seem to GET IT"<P>Not "getting it" may be what is refered to as the Betrayer's Fog. By the way, how does your H feel about your best friend being a guy? Has he ever expressed concern, jealousy, or feeling left out? <P>"i guess we could call me a lucky one .. d day being after 4 dates w/o anything sexual. however i can not say im greatful."<P>That's putting a positive outlook on things, which helps in resolving to work on the marriage. On the other hand, why SHOULD you be grateful for the H you love dallying with another woman? Maybe you can try to be grateful in retrospect, if the surfacing of the affair wakes you both up, and you realize the precious thing that you have in your marriage, and really work and make it bettr than it's ever been.<P>"im really not one to give advice in this matter being as my marriage is falling around my ears.."<P>We're all here because our marriages are falling around our ears. We're all offering perspective, encouragement, the benefit of our experience, and prayers.<P>" however where do they stand now?.still firends?....... EA or PA i dont really know how to rate this is anyway without that info...... im getting the assumption that your h doesnt want to try. i will say that that however is his loss. any woman willing to put up with a mans SH@$T and still try is definately worth saving"<P>They are still friends but by tacit agreement we don't talk about her any more, or her family. It's not that they are evil people, but I am threatened by the love I see shining on her. What he gives me is dutiful concern, showing up at the counselor's office, helping around the house. I see all that, I see the love in action, but he has no feelings for me at all. Concern, pity, resentment, obligation, but no desire, he never misses me, and if it weren't for our son he wouldn't even be in this marriage. <P><BR>Good LUCK .........w/b/s[/B][/QUOTE]<P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess<p>[This message has been edited by Bellevue (edited November 18, 2000).]

.<p>[This message has been edited by TeeAreOhYouBeEL.Eee (edited July 25, 2001).]

Tee,<BR> I have read alot of your posts here and I am not understanding alot of them.. You are mad at you H for having a female freind and that it is wrong to have her there for him , but yet on the other hand your BEST FRIEND is A MAN,, now how fair is that ?? If you can have OS friend why shouldnt he be able to , Yes I do understand that yours may be online , and if this Ow is moving out of state then what would be the big problem or concern if they were to chat online like you and your best friend? she would be miles away and have no physical contact with him.. I am not going to sit here and lecture because I am not like that , but from personal experience I can say cutting him off of a friend is just going to push him away even more dont you think? he may end up resenting you in the long run and may never forgive you for it . you said this OW had a bad marriage how do you know that? maybe they werew having conflict jhust lkike you and your h. whos to say they wernt leaning on eachother for support to help eachother resolve problems with your marriages ?? it is possible to have an emotional attachment to someone without a physical one . a little advice never really hurt anyone ,<BR> sometimes it ois better to lean on the OS for support to get a point of the same sex in question, maybe he was looking for just that a females point of veiw !! <BR> give him time I am sure he will open up to more and more as time goes by .. but you have to be willing to give him the time he needs and the space he needs to think things through , I think if he was turnign to someone else for advice then maybe he felt that the marriage was in danger and just did not want to hurt your feelings by saying hey I think we are in trouble .. maybe he shouldnt of hidden it from you , but as a female I know if my H would say to be hey I am going out with so and so ,, then no matter what i would fliped out and overexaderated .. <BR> I dont want you to think I am taking his side , I dont take sides ,, but your story really got my attention , because of past experiences and I have tried to read all of your posts ,, <BR> on one of them you said she was trying to contact him through a co worker ? how is it that you know this? maybe there is good reason or maybe she is just trying to contact the co-worker? dont jump to conclusions.. I agree with one of the replys you had gotten ,, where they said the OW should be your best friend right now ,, If they had spoke about the troubles in your marriage then she could help you out, maybe give you advice on the matters at hand.<BR> I think the way you 2 met is very intersting , not in a bad way and dont take this the wrong way but maybe you guys didnt know eachother the way you thought , everyone changes in time , as we get older and wiser ,, sometimes for the good and sometimes for the bad <BR> if you really want things to work out , you will give him the time he needs to think , I know I had read some posts and I give you alot of credit for trying as hard as you are, abviously there is something there.<BR>

.<p>[This message has been edited by TeeAreOhYouBeEL.Eee (edited July 25, 2001).]

Tee,<BR> Ok I understnad that family DOES indeed come first ,, no doubt there ,, no I will never understnad why he kept "her" as a secret ..thats omething I guess onl7y men have the answer too.. maybe afraid of fighting ?? <BR> for him to neglect his Daughter was absolutly wrong ..nothing should come between a parents love for a child ,, <BR> did you not say she was moving to another state ?? when was she supposed to go ?? is she gone already??<BR> if they were just freinds why would she still be trying to contact him? <BR> I swear men are so HARD to understand at times!!! if only we could get in their heads just for a day we would be able to understand just a little way of their thinking!! <BR> I know I have givin up on my husband in trying to understand his way of thinking it seemed to cloud my mind even more .. i would rather keep my confusion at an equal level..<BR> I think losing contact with this other woman was the RIGHT thing to do ,, less ties the better in this case ,, yes she may know about some of yopur problems but if she is still trying to get in contact with him , then forget it !!! <BR> I am one that is very rare I do understand that men need woman friends , in some casees it is good ,, in others well I dont know , <BR> there is no way for me to know what you are going through exactly , but I am trying to understand it the best I can ,, <BR> I have read a few of your posts ,like I said earlier on ,, and when I read the one about you having a os friend it disturbed me to think it was ok for you but not for him ,, I would have to read more on the situation to know exactly what is going on ,, well hope you are feeling better ,,<BR> is there any way you could find out if she has left state ?? i would look into it .. <BR> hope things are going good ,,, <P> W/b/s

.<p>[This message has been edited by TeeAreOhYouBeEL.Eee (edited July 25, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TeeAreOhYouBeEL.Eee:<BR>[B]iluvuwolf,<P>Tee,<BR> I really like your understanding of an os friend !! not to discuss things with your as friends that you would talk about with your spouce, thats a great idea , but that is hard if you best friend is your h/w and you can talk to then about anything ,and you can talk to your freinds about anything ,, <BR> You said he was the one who decided to end the freindship , well that would be the first step to workign out your conflicts. and it is a good step on his part , I am a little confused about a little something that you had written and excuse me for expressing my opinion. but why is she still being talked about if YOU and H want it in the past , there really should not be any dicussion on her or about her , just of the fact , <BR> for him to cry while taling with her .. I dont know what to say about that , maybe it is guilt ,or pain ,, or maybe something else<BR> I know from personal experience that once trust is broken it is hard to build back up , and it is something you both will have to work on , and it may be the hardest thing to do ,but eventually it will be strong again IF both try to repair the damage that is done , <BR> I read one of your other posts and it said something like I dont knwo if I want to even try to fix this marriage , hun all you have to do is sit back by yourself and THINK .. ask yourself one Question "before any of this happen was I unhappy?" and for what reasons ,once you detect these answers then youwill be able to build and fix the problems that are present .<BR> emailing eachother is a good start ,people tend to express themselves better on paper then in person,sometimes even with more emotion ! <BR> I hope you can manage to make it through another day without thinking of where and who is with ,,, w/b/s<BR> have a great day !

.<p>[This message has been edited by TeeAreOhYouBeEL.Eee (edited July 25, 2001).]

Tee,<BR> the hurt and anger may take a VERY long time to dissappear and that is all understandable... <BR> first let me just say you were not rambling at all .. it is an "outlet " somewhere to turn in need of help ! <BR> I now understand what you meant about him crying but maybe it was out of hurt and guilt ,nothing more ..<BR> you said all they did was talk , wel that is a possitive thing. <BR> I cant say I have ever been in your position and maybe that is why i was so drawn to your posts I have however read alot of them and spent alot of hours here reading them long before I responded to any of them and it really tears me up inside to see so many young couples that have been betrayed and hurt and hurt as you have , it amazes me in a sence that so many marriages are falling apart ,, <BR> everyone says things in anger and some are said in some part of hatred that build up inside ,<BR> If you dont mind me askign is this the first time he has had an ea or even a Pa? <BR> I dont want to pry into your business to much. <BR> I dont understand why the Ow would feel as though she was the victim ,, did she know he was married? <BR> I really wish I could feel the hurt you have because maybe it would give me a better understanding of it all , i read some of his posts as well as yours and he seems so sincere in his words<BR> some people have a very hard tiem expressing themselves and it is something that needs to be worked on with 100% form the both of you .. not just 50% form one and 40 Form the other know what I mean ,, <BR> try this , have him sit with his back facing you ,, like in a chair , ask him what his exact thoughts are at that moment ,, and him as you , make sure your backs are towardss one another,, then each time turn your bodies until you are eventually facing one another !! this just might help him and you express your true feelings about eachother and you may encounter eachothers deepest emotions , it just might take TIME is all ,, <BR> well enough for now looking forward to hearing from you again !<BR> W/s<BR>

.<p>[This message has been edited by TeeAreOhYouBeEL.Eee (edited July 25, 2001).]

Dear Tee,<P>I can't spend much time on the boards today; S and his friend are here, running in and out of the room, working on a report. I willt ake time to read maybe Monday, when both H and S are out of the house.<BR>You think you might say something to offend me. I don't believe anything posted here is meant to hurt anyone. In my humble opinion, those who come here are decent and compassionate and I believe that is the case with you as well.<P>Thanks for responding to my post. Will try to write more this week.<P>

Dear Tee <P>First, is there any way you can talk to the Harleys about marriage counseling? The both of you, husband and wife to save your marriage?<P>Your husband may just not be good with words and feelings. Many men aren't. <P>As to him saying you are nuts, there's a lot of loons posting here on the board. We're all nuts, accusing spouses of having affairs, confronting them with the evidence and still having them deny it. (Like we don't have enough to do in our lives, and we have to make up fantasies of our spouses having affairs.)<P>"i told him he was going through withdrawals form her....he of course laughed at me and said i was nuts... "<P>I thought I was nuts too. When I repeated the "addiction and withdrawal" theory to my shrink (I'm on meds and being monitored, this is after nearly a year and a half of trying to cope on my own without medicine) he didn't ask me what the he** I was talking about. He knew.<P>"if he reads then has the audacity to tell me that our marriage wasnr anyone business .i just migh ttell him to get the f%$K out."<P>Nobody knows who we are. Most of us here are extremely discreet. I don't even let on what part of the country we live in, don't say what work my H does, or use our names, or describe our appearances. None of that information could pinpoint any of us, but I bend over backward to protect our privacy. This privacy gives me the freedom to be completely honest."<P>Te, you've got to believe your H loves you. He put his heart right out there in his letter. Find some way to get counseling from someone who believes in saving marriages. A letter like that would melt my heart.<P>" i only know him from online but hes great..... he feels he can tell me anything. and i am glad that i have that effect on someone.... we speak on the phone also . my h and him are also friends ... previously H showed jealousy of friend...when i explained to h all the probs friend was having in relationships and also being born of rape with mothers resentment toward him.. H understood. we 3 talk all the time and H seems to enjoy conversations.<BR>As of now i do not know if H is jealous of friend. zhe act like hes not but then again he acted like he was working all the time too<BR>."<P>Tee, this best friendship has a smell of danger. Please be careful. You can come to believe that you know each other, and become closer to each other than to your H. I am speaking from my own painful experience.<P>"your H i think this is only an assumption. wants the best of both worlds......her for the compasion and whatever else. and you for the family that most men seem to crave at one time or another. "<P>Tee, that's not the first time the idea has been presented. I've thought it myself, and my shrink has seen it also. No apology necessary.<P>"I cant say id allow my H to remain firnds with OW cause i sure as hell wont. but you seem to be braver than i."<P>Tee, I'm not brave. My H refuses to give up this OW, it's not my permission that keeps the affair going. it's my foolish stubbornness, the idea that I've already invested so much time energy pain and counseling into saving our marriage and restoring the love, that what if all it takes is one more month? And I didn't give it that one more month. Or one more session. Do you follow. I'm not nice about his friendship with her anymore; I've been positively vicious and foulmouthed. (language that would make a sailor blush)<P>And yes, contact should be cut off for repairs to be made. I'm not brave; I'm a fearful person, fearful of a divorce, for what it would do to our son, fearful of making a mstake.<P><BR>Thanks for the input. <BR><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

.<p>[This message has been edited by TeeAreOhYouBeEL.Eee (edited July 25, 2001).]

TEE,<BR> well first let me apologize for not responding any earlier , I was X-mas shopping all day and well when I returned home was just to tired to even think about using the pc!<BR> ok , now i am a litte lost at your last comments from your last responce.. first let me tell you I was givin this name by My H .. he used it a long time ago , and I recently let a freind of mine use it to post to get some insight on her own relationships(what should I do)... but it was ORIGINALLY my H's.. I just chose to continue using it.. instead of making a new one , he loves the animal wolf and makes it a hobby to research them .. the house is convered in them !! LOL <BR> ok now back to the subject .. now ok she knew of you and that you were married .. and although wrong for him or her not to tell you of their freindship, I was thiking of the situaton the other morning (I seem to think of you often ) and maybe he was feelihgn a little more then she was ? of course this is just a suggestion, maybe he felt more emotionally attached then she did ? do you understnad what I am saying ?? I knwo I seem to babbling ,, but also It gave her no right to not tell you either if you talked online with her she sahpould of just mentioned it !! oh did you ever find out if she left state ?? I am curios to knwo why after the dday is when she decided to leave ,,why not before hand? i am sure someof the answers you dont have , but I am tryign so hard to understand all of what happened,, it seems to have happened so fast! you sdaid you were both so happy before ow came along ,, <BR> well I have to go for now I have more shopping to do ... <BR> W/b/s .. maybe we could exchange email addresses or something just so we could chat more privatly ,, if not I will understand !!! <BR> have a GOOD DAY

.<p>[This message has been edited by TeeAreOhYouBeEL.Eee (edited July 25, 2001).]

.<p>[This message has been edited by TeeAreOhYouBeEL.Eee (edited July 25, 2001).]

Tee,<BR> before I start let me finish... I forgot to add somethign in my last responce.. sorry .I suffer from crs severly,haha you7 said something along the lines of you told h you wanted to split ?? MY lord why?? I knwo alot is said in anger ,, and I know part of you might mean it ,, ya know I oice read an article that said us being humans we produce a hormone that actually triggers something in your body after being with someone for so long ,makes you fall out of love with them , and seperating is the best for that so you can fall in love again , I dont knwo it was just an article !<BR> ok now I know you only spoke to ow after dday , and you enjoyed your conversations?? well then that is odd,but good ,, and yes I understand that you might feel the anger all over again with speaking to her ,, <BR> as for you getting an email from a friend of hers , that seems a little normal I do recall you saying something about her not havign a pc where she was going.. so no mater what a freind would have to let all the others know about it ,, and as for you being the only one who recieved it maybe they did itwith cc so nobody could see anyone elses names?? or maybe they were send individually for the same reason !! <BR> somequestions we ask our selves never do get answered ,,<BR> Oh and as for the your h having a deeper emotional attachment as she had , what i am asking or saying here is maybe she felt less then what Your husband had for her ,, maybe she saw it only as a freind ,, and he differently ,, or maybe even vice versa ..<BR> well I will eamil you later so you will have my email address ,, which is also on aol ,, so maybe we can even Im one another ,, <BR> have a good night now ,, <BR>