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I have been having a relationship with a man for 2 1/2 years, and I thought that eventually we would get married. We had planned on it when some situations in both our lives had been resolved. Two weeks ago, he came to me and told me he has gotten involved with another woman, and has had sex with her 3 times. She got pregnant, but lost the baby. I was devastated, but I have read Dr. Harley's books and wanted to work our relationship out. He says he is very confused because he feels he loves both of us. I asked him if he wanted to continue seeing her and he said YES. That just about killed me!<BR>I am asking for advice. I know if I was married I would definitely do plan A, but I don't know if I should tell him he has to stop seeing her, or what? What am I to do in this situation? How long should I try to meet his needs, and hope he will stop seeing her? He says he loves me more than he loves her. Some friends have told me to tell him he can't see me while he is seeing her. I don't want to drive him away, but I don't want him to think that this is ok with me.<P>How does a person who is not married implement plan A..how long before I would go to plan B? I need some help. I love this man very much, and if he would stop seeing her, I would do whatever I could to save our relationship. He still calls and comes to see me...I will not let him get close to my physically except to hug me. I just keep seeing in my mind him kissing her and making love to her. He said she knows about me.<P>Someone please help me to see clearly what to do! I am really very depressed about this. I am afraid if I dont keep a positive attitude he will not want to come around me. The last time I asked him to come see me, he said he was afraid that I would just end up telling him how much he has hurt me and that he couldnt take that right now. Am I just supposed to say nothing? I am in a quandry because I am not married to this man. Dr Harley, as far as I know, has not addressed this situation if you are not already married. If he has, please let me know.<BR>Thank you.

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{ashygirl}...<P>This indeed is a hard situation.<P>You're right in that Dr. Harley doesn't address this issue...<BR>...but it is for a reason.<P>When you've had a relationship that hasn't been bound by the commitment (covenant) of <B>marriage</B>...<BR>...one that is relatively short 2 1/2 years (compared to many married here 15+ 20+ and even 25+ years)...<BR>...and trust broken so early...<BR>...<B>you lack the <I>history</I> from which to build your marriage</B> and...<BR>......there isn't as much to <B>re</B>-build from!<P>The building of the relationship by meeting <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A>... and not <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busting</A>...<BR>...ideally starts before the marriage...<BR>...but in you situation... <B>please</B> postpone any marriage plans!<P>His desire to keep on seeing her(OW) is a clear sign of immaturity...<BR>...and that is irrespective of his/your ages.<P>If you feel real love for this man...<BR>...continue Plan A.<BR>It's really a growth experience...<BR>...but...<BR>...you know you can Plan A in a relationship where you don't start off with a broken trust.<P>Building a relationship leading to marriage only is fruitul if <B>both</B> understand that real <B>work</B> is required...<BR>...I don't see your boyfriend as one who is committed to work!<P>Having serious discussions of the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3000_intro.html" TARGET=_blank>MB Concepts</A> with your boyfriend may be the best...<BR>...to see his real level of maturity...<BR>...his understanding of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Four Rules for a Successful Marriage</A>... <B>before</B> marriage is crucial!<P>If he can't understand the <OL TYPE=1> <BR><LI> <B><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3902_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Rule of Protection:</A></B> Avoid being the cause of your (future) spouse's unhappiness. YOUR HAPPINESS!<BR><LI> <B><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3901_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Rule of Care:</A></B> Meet your (future) spouse's most important <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A>. YOUR NEEDS<BR><LI> <B><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3904_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Rule of Time:</A></B> Take time to give your (future) spouse undivided attention.<BR><LI> <B><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3903_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Rule of Honesty:</A></B> Be totally open and honest with your (future) spouse.<BR></OL><BR>...no matter how hard it may seem now...<BR>...go straight to Plan B... for your sanity!<BR>...and make it a short Plan B (weeks maybe).<P>You have my thoughts and prayers...<P> [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>Jim

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ashygirl,<BR>If you had already been married I would certainly encourage you to try the plans and see this through for you own sanity, self-awareness and growth. I know this may not be what you want to hear but I think you should just move on. The task of rebuilding a marriage is in my opinion one of the most trying experiences we could have. But as Jim says we have a history from which to rebuild a marriage. Your in a courting environment, this is why we date, to find out about compatibility, protection, build trust and love, etc. In my opinion going into a marriage with this type of baggage is a recipe for disaster. Spend some time looking at the posts here and in the Recovery forum at this site. I think it will get you a better understanding of what has to happen for recovery. You need to decide if this person that you have spent 2 ½ years dating is worth what you will have to endure. Couple that with the fact that he is not willing to change and you may agree moving on is the best for everyone.<P>Please understand I am in no way trying to diminish the pain you are in, I know it is equally as devastating as anyone else’s here at MB. The fact that you have read Dr. Harley’s books puts you in such a better place when your TRUE soul mate arrives. Build yourself a support group to get through this, you are welcome here. <BR>

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Hello ashygirl,<P>I can't improve on what Jim says. In fact, I would go farther and say that if this man has already been unfaithful, and you're not married yet, you can pull up the welcome mat, screen phone calls, and run like hell. <BR>Don't let your life become a soap opera. <P>THose of us with unfaithful spouses live a daily agony that you can't imagine. Someone who cheats before marriage isn't going to change. You didn't state your age, but the 2-1/2 years invested in this relationship haven't been wasted. You can look back and see how much you've learned about relationships. <P>If you're young enough to have children, think of the years to come. Do you want to open gifts at Christmas morning in a hurry so that their Daddy can rush off to the home of his other child and be with the other child's mother? Or it's parent-teacher night at school. But your H can't come because his child by the OW has a championship soccer game that night, and he wants Dad to be there to coach. A man who needs to cheat may father other babies. His money will go for gifts and cell phone bills to keep the other relationship going. <P>Imagine the looks on the faces of your children as you evade their questions about "where is Daddy this morning?" Imagine the pain in their eyes when you have to tell them "Daddy is moving out. We'll always love you, but Mommy and Daddy aren't going to be married anymore. You'll sleep in our house Monday through Thursday, then pack up and sleep at Daddy's Friday through Sunday. Won't that be fun?" <P>Imagine the panic and confusion when they've left their homework folder at Daddy's, their term paper is in it, and you have to drive over and wait for them to look for it. You're late for work, so that your child won't lose points for a critical assignment. To boot, you can see the OW through the kitchen window, sipping coffee and holding their newest infant on her lap. Your children always wonder if they're "second best."<P>Now imagine a man who only dates one woman, who thinks carefully about the life he wants to have with her, who doesn't have phone numbers written on slips of paper in his pants pockets, who has no dark secrets that you have to ferret out. You're not "reading between the lines" in your conversations, looking for evasions and lies. <P>He adores you, and only you. If the phone rings, and it's a wrong number, your stomach isn't in knots for the rest of the day, doubting your man.<P>Married to a faithful man, you won't be worried about STD's. When you see your OB-GYN about a rash in your pubic area, you won't get the news that you have an STD. (Imagine the humiliation of receiving such news while your feet are resting in stirrups and you're in the same position as a turkey waiting to be stuffed.) <P>You can turn this situation into an advantage and have a life with true lasting happiness. But probably not with this man.<P><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

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shygirl listen to Belle, she just painted a very real picture. I know some of it doesn't make you feel any better. However, her picture is so close to the real thing it is frightening.<BR>

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<small>[ January 31, 2005, 10:25 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

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ashygirl,<P>I you have been given excellent advice by all concerned. I am really seconding what has been said, but as I man who spent a lot of time as a batchelor and dated many women let me offer my perspective.<P>As I said, I dated many women in my twenties. Sometimes simultaneously [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com], but when I met my W, I stopped fooling around with other girls, period. She was the one. She wasn't the most beautiful, she wasn't the sexiest, in fact there wasn't one trait she had, that was not superceded by some woman that I had dated or been engaged to before. Except one! She was the right woman for me.<P>ashygirl, no matter how much you love him, it appears you are not the right girl for him. He is not mature enough and he is not committed enough to be the right man for you. You cannot change him. Please, tonight when you go to bed, don't feel sad, just thank God that you have gotten to see him for who he is before you married him. He is not the right man for you, because you are not "the one" for him.<P>You don't realize it now, but you will in the coming years. You have been blessed and given a gift. Smile, remember the good times, learn from this experience and then realize you haven't found the right man yet.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<P>PS: My W and I have been married 25 years and there have been no affairs on my part and none to my knowledge on hers. She was the right choice. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] You make the right choice also. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

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Ashygirl,<P>I second all that's been said. You are in the unique position to take control of the situation. Step back from the feelings and take those 2-1/2 years and look at them like school.....you now have mastered the "How Not To Marry A Snake" course. Congratulate yourself, pull up your bootstraps and move on and far, far away from this guy. This is NOT the person you should marry. I know that for a fact.<P>No, it won't necessarily help the pain you are feeling now. But in the long run, you can walk proud, with your head held high, knowing you are a woman with integrity and values. There will be someone out there who will CHERISH you because of this; wait for that person and in the meantime learn what to look for and what to avoid.<P>I also ask you to seek God. He can take any messed up situation, any pain-filled heart, any dashed hopes and dreams and give you joy. Real joy...no matter what you are going thru. Please believe me on this....my H of 12 years, started an affair one year ago today, moved out in January and is now living with the OW. He stated very clearly that he will not come home....it's over. <P>While in the beginning, my days were only pain-filled, I now see that while all I could do was fall in my face at God's feet, I now have that joy, knowing that my relationship with Him was WAY more important that my relationship with my H. I begged God to turn my H around. And He may still do that. But I now see that God doesn't want me to love Him just because he did a miracle. He wants me to love Him <I>in spite of</I> the situation.<P>I pray that you can come to the same understanding and relationship with the living God.<P>I also recommend getting Dr. Laura's book "Ten Stupid Things Women Do To Mess Up Their Lives" available at <A HREF="http://www.drlaura.com." TARGET=_blank>www.drlaura.com.</A> <P>God bless you and I will pray for you.<BR>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR>

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One more thought...<P>Check out the following post that was just begun on the GQII forum...<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/006471.html" TARGET=_blank>What you've learned from marriage..</A>.<P>Does you boyfriend honestly...<BR>...very honestly... posess the qualities need to really say <I>and mean</I>... "I <B>can</B> apply those things... that people say they've learned from marriage"...?<BR>Be honest with yourself about evaluating your boyfriend!<P>You may want to ask yourself the same question(s). [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>Jim

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Thank you for all your replies. I am 45 years old, and have been divorced since 1996. I met this man and moved across the US to be near him. He is a minister, and I really thought that he was the most wonderful man in the world. I read all the books on what to do in a marriage so that I would not make the mistakes that I made in my last marriage, (which was 20 years.) <P>I really committed myself to this man..and I thought he had committed himself to me. Now he tells me he thought I was seeing someone else...and he pulled away from me months ago...I tend to think this is an excuse that he is using for what he did.<P>This woman he is involved with has lots of problems. I asked him did he feel the need to rescue her? How and why could he do such a thing? He says he is confused..that he knows that a man who has feelings for 2 women needs help. I know he has been under a lot of stress in the past few months. Sometimes I think this is just such a bad dream and it will all go away. He says he needs time to think. Maybe he does. I keep thinking maybe he will realize what he is doing. He says this is a very recent thing, but I know he has been helping her with her problems since the summer. <P>I feel him pulling more and more away from me. My son, who is almost 25, says it might be from the shame and guilt he feels, or he might just be pulling away to end it. I feel like I am at the end of my rope. I have no family out here so far away from home. I am in school full-time to finish my BS degree. On top of everything else, I went out to start my car this morning, and something happened to it. I have had to have it towed in and possibly face a big repair bill. I called my son crying, and said I dont know how much more I can take. I want to finish my classes this quarter, but all I do is cry. I know I am depressed.<P>I feel like I have had my world fall apart. I know we are not married, but I acted as though we were. I loved him, poured out everything I had for him.<P>Mrs. O, I am a Christian. I am trying to give this to God, but it is so hard. Please pray for me. I thought I had a relationship that was built on fidelity and trust. I treated it as a lifetime committment, when I guess it wasn't. I counted on something that I couldnt count on. I feel so lost. I just dont know what to do.

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ashygirl,<P>Do yourself a big favor. Stop for a second and think. You are finishing school, you have a 25 year old son you can confide in. You have many things going for you and you have learned a very hard thing. But you learned it before you married.<P>This man is not for you. I know you are sad and I know it hurts to give your heart to someone and have them just drop it. But you have been blessed, plus you did get something out of the relationship. You got knowledge, you know how to make a better marriage, and you know this isn't the man to do it with.<P>ashygirl, step back and then finish those courses. Meet your life goals. Your pain will go away with time and it will take time.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<P>PS: How did the car thing work out? Was it a dead battery? The sealed ones tend to fail without any warning. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

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Thanks, Just Learning,<P>I am trying to believe what you are saying. I have to pull myself together for my sake and for my goals in life. <P>My car had fouled spark plugs. The bill was $100 for the tow and new plugs, but it could have been much worse. I thank God for that.<P>I spent the evening with some friends. That helped a lot to get my mind off all this. I am going to spend tomorrow with other friends, too. I wish I did have my son here with me, but he lives 2,000 miles away. <P>Thanks for your understanding. I realize I was not married to him, but that doesn't make my pain any less. I love him way too much.

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PS: My W and I have been married 25 years and there have been no affairs on my part and none to my knowledge on hers. She was the right choice. You make the right choice also. <P>Just Learning...I am curious. <BR>What has drawn you to this forum then?<BR>I presumed that you too had been betrayed.<P><BR>

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Hi desertrose,<P>I am full of surprises aren't I. I found MB well over a year and a half ago. Somewhere around here there is a thread detailing why I came. It is a bit complicated, but simply depression and other things had lead me to seriously think about divorcing my W.<P>Reading here and see the experiences here taught me a tremendous amount and changed my mind and perspective about my marriage. I would have never started posting had it not be for one particular woman, Facing Choices. <P>Her situation so touched my a started to post here, I had been lurking for over 6 months. One thing has led to another. I constantly think of leaving but then there is someone who seems to need a boost or has a situation I know something about.<P>So I hang around here and see how some friends are doing and post much more than I should. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>Must go. Good night.<P>JL

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ashygirl,<P>I realize not being married doesn't make the pain any less. I hope I didn't give the impression that I thought your pain should be discounted. I was just trying to point out that as much as this hurts, you are finding these things out before you married.<P>That would have complicated things even more and the pain certainly would not have been less.<P>Hope you are doing better tonight.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

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Well Just learning I am so glad you do post as much as you do because you seem to have a lot of good practical advice to give. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>Now Ashygirl.<BR>How I feel for you ...I don't think that it being such a "relatively" short relationship and that you are not actually married to him makes the situation ANY less painful to deal with.<BR>You would be experiencing all the same emotions/hurts/betrayals as we are all experiencing.<BR>However I do tend to agree that it certainly puts SERIOUS doubts into whether or not this relationship is worth the fight...Oh and it IS a fight.<BR>However only you know in your heart whether or not you want to put in all the hard work that lays ahead of you if you choose to stay with this man.<BR>It is SO hard though. You can't just turn love off like a tap.<BR>Good luck.

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Thanks, Desertrose and everyone else.<P>I see what you mean about this being a fight..I have just finished reading all the roll call posts. It seems even when both people want to work out their relationship that it is SO difficult. I am not sure what I want to do. And you are right...you cannot turn your love off like a tap. If only it was that easy!<P>I saw where so many people were taking St. John's Wort that I decided to get some so that I hope I will be able to get back to some semblance of normalcy. I have slept for the last 2 nights, and working helps me to not obsess over it so much. One minute I never want to see him again, the next I hope we can work this out and put it behind us. One thing I have decided is that I will make no hasty decisions, but I will try to take care of myself first. <P>I will continue to read over the site. I am amazed at the love of the betrayed spouse, as well as the "fog" as they call it, of the betrayer.<P>Thanks.

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Ashygirl:<P>RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!<P>I also posted in the other forum where you inquired about my situation.<P>I know the turmoil you are in regarding the love you have for this man. I started on this board August 99 because my then fiance thought I was having an "affair of the heart" (aka EA). I was not, but he used that as an excuse for what he did. My full story is under the username "LadyK". <P>If I could turn back time I would never have gone through with the wedding knowing he had a PA. I couldn't see the whole picture at that time and if I had followed our Pastor's advise and called off the wedding to work at rebuilding I don't think I'd ever marry this man.<P>What I suggest you do (and it WILL be painful), is give him his space and time. Tell him you want no contact from him for a specified period of time.<P>During that time, focus on yourself. Find a good counselor and start looking inward. Read the book "Codependant No More" by Melody Beattie. I bet you'll see yourself on every page.<P>I know there are men and women who stray just once and fully recover, but I believe more every day "once a cheat - always a cheat". <P>I struggle with my vows at this point. I'm a new christian and took my vows seriously (I have also been previously married and always thought divorce was an option). You see it's all a part of my codependancy. I go from one unhealthy relationship to another. My exH is an alcoholic (although he doesn't think so) and my current H struggles with alcoholism and drug addiction. He also was abused as a child. These are more excuses for why he has EAs and PAs.<P>I believe you love this man and I believe your pain is very real! I've been there, but I've learned so much about MYSELF the past 10 months. Unfortunately, I learned too late. Please learn from MY mistake and let this man go! <P>A girlfriend of mine puts it bluntly: how can you find Mr. Right with Mr. Wrong hanging around? Think about it!<P>I'm praying for you! Good luck!<P>Karen

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ashygirl,<P>Why? Why would you continue with a man who has no regard for you or your feelings? Is your self worth so low that you believe you deserve to be treated like this?<P>Surely you don't think going ahead with the relationship is going to change him do you? You can "Plan A" all day long but it won't change a dog into a decent human being.<P>I know it's against the marriage builders ideal but we also have to face the fact that there are a lot of "users" out there just looking for someone to step up and be used. Why are you applying for the job?

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FREE2BEME<P>Wow, my situation does sound a lot like yours. My boyfriend told me in the midst of confessing his affair that he thought that I was involved with someone else, and that a matter he was jealous about 2 years ago, in which he thought I was involved with another man online (which I was not), he had never really been able to get over. I was stunned, because I had cut off all contact with this man when my boyfriend thought that I was involved inappropriately with him. I thought we had both worked through this issue, but now he says he had been pulling away from me all this time. The thing I don't understand is if that was true, why was he telling me how deeply he loved me, and how he had found such a sweet love with me he never thought was possible?<P>I am a Christian myself, and you may not believe this, but I turned to a friend of mine last night who is a youth pastor. Though young enough to be my daughter, and not having first hand experience in some of this stuff, she walks with God. She helped me to see that cutting off contact with him, at least for a while, is the best thing that I could do for the both of us. I realize this is going to be almost unbearable, and I have agreed to be accountable to her in this. She is a wonderful friend to help me work through this. I believe that God has had His hand at work in this and that your post this morning confirmed it.<P>I am on my way back to God. I want to be a whole person. I am in the process of looking for a Christian counselor to work on some of the issues in my life. I have been in unhealthy relationships before, and I need to understand why and break the pattern so that I don't continue to cause myself such heartbreak. This man says he is going into counseling himself. I hope he does. I still have hope that after all this, we may have a future together. I am not ready to deal with the prospects anything else at the moment. But my friend says God has better plans for my life, and perhaps a life with someone else.<P>Thanks for your reply. I have been able to find some of your posts. I will keep you updated if you are interested. And I will be praying for you. I do understand your pain.<P>

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