I am new in the forum and have been reading alot of the posts to see if there is some wisdom to help me out.<P>My scenario (sorry if I dont know all the OT, OM etc yet)<BR>My wife and I have been married for 5 years now and have two great kids. Unknowingly this last year I put a great deal of work on my wife etc and neglected her.. Spending time doing things while I should have been doing them with her. Things came to a head and things are bad. One thing that we can do is talk, there is no yelling, no abuse physically etc which I am grateful for) but we are unhappy. At this point we want to get everything working and are trying hard.<P>My problem is this: She works as a programmer and has grown way to close to a fellow programmer. She has told me she feels happy around him, has that tingle etc... And she has kissed him once.. I am very understanding, however I don't know what to do. We just started councilling and I know that although she has said that she is not associating with him other than a business associate (fellow programmer) , that this is almost impossible to believe. The OM is just separated and she wants to remain friends. I didn't know about the NO CONTACT rule but deep inside I know that that is what needs to happen.<P>How hard do i push, how fast etc. At this point I know that to deny contact means her leaving the job (or him) and she won't. Period.<P>I know deep in my heart that the no contact rule is necessary because I kissed another woman years and years ago. I dropped all contact with her, never saw her again. And it wasnt there to tempt me. My wife was told about it by me and it was dropped..forgiven.<P>What should I do? I was tempted to send her an email to show the link of Harley's NO CONTACT section, or even some of the links here to the forum... But will this help or just anger her? I want her to love me again and it hurts sooo much.<P>

Welcome <B>Simply J</B> to the Marriage Builders - Infidelity Forum.<P>The people here represent both betrayed spouses and betrayers(waywards) alike and the occasional Other Woman/Man/Person (OP/OW/OM). I hope these abbreviations help you.<BR><B>All</B> of us are really here to try and build or rebuild our marriages... and we are trying to use principles and concepts that are espoused by Dr. Willard Harley of Marriage Builders(MB).<P>There is a wealth of information here at this site, starting from the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/" TARGET=_blank>Marriage Builder's Home Page</A>.<P>If you're new to the ideas being presented here at MB start off with <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3000_intro.html" TARGET=_blank>Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts</A><P>Many of us need to start immediately working on our marriages and a <B>sound</B> understanding of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A and Plan B</A> is crucial! You need to start immediately on <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>!<P>You'll see a barrage of "terms" which you might guess the meaning of... but an alternative is to look up what they mean at this site... Words like (click on them to find out):<BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busters</A>, <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3200_love.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Bank</A>, <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A>, <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3550_give.html" TARGET=_blank>Giver and Taker</A>, <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html" TARGET=_blank>The Policy of Joint Agreement(POJA)</A>.<P>You'll need to learn more about, not just marriage building... but self building too! The learning isn't going to happen overnight though... look at the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8100_article.html" TARGET=_blank>Articles</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5525_qa.html" TARGET=_blank>Infidelity Q&A</A>.<BR>The real learning is best aided by obtaining some of the books from the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6000_bookstore.html" TARGET=_blank>MB Bookstore</A>... of most important for those who have affairs in progress, or soon to be, is <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6070_sa.html" TARGET=_blank>"Surviving An Affair"</A> by Dr. Willard Harley. <B>This is the 'bible' for this forum.</B><BR>Other books can be very useful as well... like <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6020_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>"His Needs, Her Needs"</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6030_love.html" TARGET=_blank>"Love Busters"</A>.<BR>There will be many other good books that the MB people will recommend... take their advice... they've been around.<P>Most of all... you will find <B>compassion</B> and <B>love</B> here. No judging... no demeaning... no malice here!<BR>The people here have all had their lives thrown into a whirlwind of despair, confusion, and sadness.<BR>We've all experience gut wrenching emotions that we though could never exist, in anyone's idea of humanity.<BR>Feelings of hatred, love, disillusionment, envy, rejection, emptiness, <B>deep depression</B>, and on and on...<P>Just the books and facts aren't going to get you through it all... not without <B>support</B>. That's where <B>we</B> come in! <B>We</B> care... because <B>we</B> know how it feels. Believe it... <B>You are <I>not</I> alone</B>! <BR>Come to this forum to vent... to cry... to laugh (a little)... to express your feelings... to advise others... or just to get away!<BR>You're probably going through H*!! right now... don't go it alone... remember... <B>you are <I>not</I> alone</B>! <P>There is never any guarantee to save all marriages... life doesn't work that way, unfortunately.<BR>We can, and do guarantee, to give you help... to build back many vital aspects of your life and sanity. <P>Post... Post... Post... Reply... Reply... Reply... READ! READ! READ!<P>A few quotes... from the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6070_sa.html" TARGET=_blank>"Surviving An Affair"(SAA)</A> book...<BR>Words like these are how to keep a secret second life... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"Stay out of my private life", "I'm disappointed you don't trust me", "I can't remember", <B>"We're just friends"</B>, and "I just need some time away to think things through" (pages 40-44 of SAA)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>...and... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to the betrayed spouse. (page 55 of SAA)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>...and... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Without total separation(<B>what you're calling No contact</B>), marital recovery is almost impossible. (page 56 of SAA)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>...and... when this happens... be prepared for a difficult time of it... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Wayward spouses do not necessarily have a history of lying, but their affair turns them into masters of deception. (page 40 of SAA)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Please do get the book ASAP! And post here!!!<BR>BTW: weekends are a bit slow here... be patient with replies to your posts... <P>I've been speaking in behalf of some dear friends... as well as some complete strangers too..., when I've used <B>"we"</B>!<BR>But... if you're here... join in with them... they <B>will</B> join in with you. <P>Jim<BR>---------------------------------<BR>Where two or more are gathered...<p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited December 10, 1999).]

Welcome SimplyJ,<P>My advice to you is to love her TONS and woo her back to YOU, so that she isn't tempted by the OM.<P>It is <B>her</B> decision and mistake, if she goes further, and it is an <B>emotional</B> affair right this second. But you might be able to stop any further action on her part by being <B>there</B> for her, meeting her needs.<P>Best wishes as you begin this difficult journey... it's a toughie!!

What is happening is my attempts at loving and cuddling her are making her uncomfortable. She no longer feels a connection and wants it back before the physical comfort (not talking about sex here), hugs & kisses etc are difficult to get in.<P>It seems to me like its easier for her to go to someone without the 'baggage' associated with the kiss or the hug. She nolonger sees him outside of work but the contact is still there during the day.<P>For example, you wouldnt believe what I am making her for Xmas. A quilt of all things... I just want to show her that she is special. (boy have I cleaned up my act around the home which as it turns out I enjoy alot)<P>I think i need some patience and a lot of hope. Especially when times are tough like this. It's sad that there are so many people in the same situation... I can give support but really ..its the hope everyone needs to have to carry on. I am looking for the books for the framework to build on... I just need someway to show her that the house is still worth working on and building...<P>

Patience is the key word here. Nobody can force your wife to do anything she doesn't want to or feels there is no need to. My husband is a testament to that. He continues to contact the OW even when he sees the pain it causes me.<BR>I am in the waiting game right now and it is a difficult position to be in. You feel like you've lost control of everthing involved in your marriage and you aren't sure if anything you will do will ever be enough. From what I have read in the responses to my posts the rewards can be wonderful...<BR>Hang in there, contiue to love your wife and do little things that let her know how you feel. Run her a bubble bath, bake her a batch of her favorite cookies, rent her favorite movie make some popcorn and watch it with her(even if it's a chick flick and you hate it).<BR>Patience...love...time<P>------------------<BR>Love and Prayers<BR>Nicole<P><BR>

Simply J,<P>I am in much the same situation as you, my W has been emotionally involved with another man. She has agreed to stop communicating with him, and I believe her(I can tell when she is lying). It is quite a relief to me, since I definitley don't want their relationship to develop into a sexual one. She says that she loves me, but she is not in love. Needless to say, I am in shock. Like you, I began to increase my attempts at affection. However, I have found that this is not the way to go. The more I try to hug, kiss, hold, carress, etc., the more she pushes me away. We saw a counselor about 2 weeks ago, and he told me to stop smothering her. We initiated an agreement which basically forbids me to initiate any affection. Needless to say, this is very hard for me right now. But, it does seem to be helping. She has initiated affection towards me several times since the agreement started, and when she does, it really makes me feel good. The counselor gave me some pretty good advice; he told me to stop thinking about myself in relation to my wife. He said to imagine the perfect woman. Then ask yourself if this woman would go out with you right now. If the answer is no(most likely answer), then do everything you can to be the man that this woman would go out with. In other words, be the best man that you can possibly be. Then your wife is sure to take notice and the love will begin to return. It sounds like you have already started to do this. Keep it up and try to be patient. If you have not read this website yet, please do. It will open your eyes. Read my profile, we have alot in common right now. Just remember, be patient and don't smother her.<P>cjv

SJ-<BR>I would have to agree with Patient Love in regard to all the "nice" things you can do for her, affection does not have to be physical-I think that is a somewhat hard concept for most men. How could she not notice it when you are basically "courting" her again? (Let's face it most of are not the same people we were when we dated). If she can tell you are doing things for her out of a geniune love, NOT EXPECTING ANYTHING IN RETURN, it will be easier for her to respond likewise, and it may just be in a like manner and not physical at all. But that will come back in time. Was she very "affectionate" in your view before?<P>I know in my case, my h was getting conversation and lots of verbage from the ow who was my best friend and like your w's co-worker knew enough to be able to be very involved in whatever emotional state he was in. What I'm trying to say is that when someone else has the opportunity to meet your needs it is taking from your spouse's ability to meet them. Kinda like you don't need a double dose or something, so therefore that valuable piece of the puzzle is missing in your relationship.<P>If she can really sever the tie to him other than strictly business-totally business, no how ya doin, I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your Aunt Matilda, did you get new glasses-only if necessary stuff like-is the smith report done, or "yes, I'll accept that 25% raise" or things of that sort. She has got to de-personalize that relationship or in my opinion it will never work. Does she acknowledge this as an "emotional affair" does she know what that means? Have you read Surviving an Affair or His Needs, Her Needs? Once she recognizes the problem that is half the battle unfortunately sometimes that is the easy half.<P>I'd say send her to this website the information and advice is wonderful. It really helps to know that no matter what there is probably someone in the same boat or has been and overcome it.<P>As much as I would love to say NO CONTACT, PERIOD!! I think if at this point you felt comfortable with the situation, she might want to see if she can deal with it. I have to agree with the fact that out of consideration for you though if it is a problem, you BOTH need to come to a conclusion on what should be done, if there is some division on that things probably will only get worse because I have the feeling there won't be trust and maybe even some resentment because she isn't willing to do whatever it takes to get her marriage straightened out. If YOU push her into leaving her job to keep you happy she will probably resent you.<P>We ended up having to leave our church of 20 yrs because we needed to implement the no contact rule, for my sake. Even though technically I was not at fault for my H's EA, I had to do some tough stuff to make it better, ultimately so did my kids, my in-laws etc. She may have to do something very difficult but there are no winners in situations like this, only survivors.<P>When you come very close to losing your whole relationship, things you thought were important don't seem to matter much anymore. And I decided that they definately would not matter without my H so they became insignificant. You guys probably are not at the point where the total loss thing seems like something that would happen, but it can.<P>Take care of what you have, it is a whole lot easier to treat the infection with the appendage still attached then to try and reatttach after it has been severed.<BR>YUCK, kinda a gross analogy, sorry.<P>Duck and Weave

Talk about LB's last night. It was my W's Xmas Party last night and the OM wasn't going to it for fear of me making things interesting. We had known this for a while and I don't want to cause a scene since I respect my wife and what she does. Last thing I want to do is make a problem there.<P>Anyway we went to the party and I wanted to try and fit in with her peers. We had a great dinner, I had 2 drinks and went to Gingerale for the rest of the evening etc. I was having some fun and fitting in.<P>I looked for my wife at a certain point and thought, why not give her a hug. She wasn't there, she was on the Cellphone calling the OM. She made it sound like a hasty put story about calling to see how the kids were doing with the sitter. Nope, it didn't smell right (as much as my heart was saying drop it) I clicked the recall button. long distance call for him. <will this vacuum I have in my whole body ever go away>?<P>LB time, I didn't, no could'nt leave it be. We had talked about him and had decided to make it purely business. But it isn't happening. On our emotional needs questionaire she puts family ahead of everything, but it doesn't show here. Why? If this is an addiction and a person recognizes it, ....<P>Well other than feeling betrayed and ugly inside I don't know what to do