I have been to a counselor, read numerous books, and extensively searched the internet for information regarding my particular dilemma-- without any success. Hopefully this site will provide me with some much-needed advice.<P>Last May, my mate of 9 years informed me that he had been having a 3-year affair with a former co-worker of ours-- a woman I had frequently questioned him about. The only reason he decided to confess was because they were caught by her husband, who found her diaries and promptly asked for a divorce.<P>My mate choose to stay with me rather than go to her, but admitted his decision carried confusion. Basically, he loves me not her-- but he desires her not me. The love he feels for me is clearly important enough to him that he has completely severed ties to her and has been incredibly willing to go through all the necessary healing steps in order to try and restore our relationship-- except the critical one. Sex.<P>I am a deeply sexual person and have taken the rejection very hard. I have tried every method possible to try and rekindle passion... from saintly patience to spontaneous adventures... yet nothing I do seems to turn him on. Our sexlife has been reduced to mutual masturbation with occasional oral thrown in (which, interestingly, were the primary activities he and his lover performed). He has no interest in even attempting intercourse with me.<P>Where I appear to differ from the female “norm” is that I do not care about issues of commitment, monogamy, or even romance. What I care about is that the most incredible lover I ever had has totally rejected me in favor of a lifestyle that I cannot possibly compete with. After 9 years, I can never be seen as mysterious, new or a secret-- components that his arousal patterns now appear to circulate around.<P>I am perfectly willing to incorporate any methods that will make him eager to share his sexuality with me again, yet I fear his 3-year experience changed him for good. He simply found a better partner. He continues to mentally mourn the loss while remaining with me for the sake of love, or perhaps duty. Either way, I am terribly depressed. A relationship without sex is nothing but a friendship. I don’t want his friendship, I want his passion.<P>So, is there any hope that our relationship can return to a mutually-satisfying level of sexual interaction? Or has he moved on and is simply having trouble letting go?<P>Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated,<P>-- Fiore<BR>

Fiore,<P>Couple of thoughts...<P>1. When did sex stop? When the affair was revealed? How was he able to make love to you the week before that?<BR>2. Have you ruled out disease? Perhaps he is afraid to tell you but doesn't want to risnk infecting you?<BR>3. Are you SURE communication between them has ended? Betrayers can be very tricky.<BR>4. It appears you value sex highly. Could that be the very reason he is witholding it from you? Some sort of punishment?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I do not care about issues of commitment, monogamy, or even romance<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Huh? You don't care whther your husband is faithful as long as he is satisfying your sexual needs? Say it ain't so! Excuse me for being blunt, but I hope you have more self-respect than that.<P>I'm with you - I LOVE sex, but even sex is not worth the loss of my standards. My W is the betrayer and says she doesn't love me. I might be able to "force" her to have sex out of some sense of spousal duty, but even as horny as I am, and as long as it has been (don't ask), I would not stoop to that..<P>Yes, I know the rejection well. Try not to focus on that. Find out what else is missing in your marriage and fix that. The passion will probably follow. Also, consider the ideas above.<P>[This message has been edited by 2sad4words (edited December 10, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by 2sad4words (edited December 10, 1999).]

Thank you for responding to my post, 2sad4words. To answer your questions:<P>1. Sex stopped the day he made the decision to leave his lover and remain with me. The quality of our sexlife had slowly been diminishing over the previous 3 years (it became more routine and less adventurous) but never ceased entirely. I stupidly discounted the decrease in interest as due to the enormously stressful jobs we both had at the time as well as the natural, biological phase which occurs between two longterm partners (i.e. the wild “honeymoon” phase ends and a deeper sense of loving union begins). He claims to feel “neutral” about having sex with me now and shows no incentive to initiate anything beyond “petting”.<P>2. Both of us got STD blood tests right after his affair was revealed. They came out negative. We will get re-tested in another 6 months as a further precaution. My gut feeling is that his lack of sexual interest in me stems from the mental triggers that remain attached to his lover rather than any physical dysfunction. <P>3. His lover contacted him at work a few times after the affair ended and he mentioned each one of the instances as they occured. Because we work in the same industry, I was able to verify his stories through other people who witnessed the exchanges. There was also a period where we took “time out” from eachother (a mini Plan B, I guess) where I basically encouraged him to pursue her. I resigned myself to the fact that his confusion would continue until he figured out what exactly he still wanted from her. During that period, he chose not to contact her.<P>4. Yes, I place high value on sex-- more specifically, sexuality. Perhaps that is a character flaw I have to address. Alot of my identity is wrapped up in how exciting I am to other people. This is not to suggest I go around flaunting myself (at age 38, I couldn’t pull it off even if I tried) but it is more an openness-- a sensuality-- that I’m told I project. I very much liked your idea that my mate may be withholding sex as punishment. I never considered that. I’m inclined to think it’s more an issue of control. He is disinterested in me because I am easily available. He wants the chase.<P>When I said I didn’t “care about issues of commitment, monogamy, or even romance” I meant it more in general terms. We have been together for 9 years but are not married. Neither of us felt it was neccessary (I won’t bore you with the details of why) but we lived together, shared finances, wore rings, and made personal promises just like a “sanctified” couple. I can tell you, the pain of betrayal is just as great whether two people share a marriage certificate or not. I am only interested in commitment insofar as he is fully engaged with me while he is with me (in other words, if true love and desire exist between two people, you don’t need to put a timeframe on it-- “forever” is implied through the intensity of connection).<P>My opinions on monogamy will be harder to swallow, so put on your seatbelt. ; ) I am bisexual and not opposed to sharing sexual experiences with my mate that include other people. The idea that my mate had sex with someone doesn’t hurt as much as my lack of inclusion in it. The fact that his experiences were private and resulted in his lack of interest in me is what hurts.<P>Romance is wonderful, but I would rather look into my mate’s eyes and see true love than be wined and dined or given material tokens. He has been very attentive lately to the warm, cuddly, “you look very nice today” stuff-- but I can assure you that none of those romantic moments matter a hoot when his eyes still express doubt and neutrality. They are just bandages on a bleeding wound.<P>On the issue of self-respect: Clearly, I have lost all self-respect. I remain with a man who chronically lied to me for 3 years when repeatedly asked about his relationship with our co-worker, who had no moral compunction (or even enough guilt) to stop an activity that he knew would destroy our relationship, who is supremely selfish in his desire to retain all choices to this day, and has flat-out rejected me as a lover. Love sure is a strange, powerful emotion. <P>You mentioned that we should find our what else is missing in our relationship and fix that; the passion will follow. Unfortunately, my mate and I both agree that it is the lack of passion (not love, friendship, companionship, etc.) that has created his doubt. He has yet to “get out of his system” the thrill of a clandestine, single lifestyle. As of today, we went to Plan B. I can only hope that he will see the folly of his ways and return to me with a genuine understanding of all that I have to offer.<P>Thank you again for responding. I have very few people to talk to about this.

Fiore,<P>You sound remarkably level-headed considering the circumstances. Yes, your view of marriage etc, is... interesting.<P>It is hard to believe that a man could get bored with sex with a woman of your adventuresome spirit. Is he as comfortable with the "sharing with other people" aspect as you, or does that generate some jealousy or even feelings of inadequacy on his part?<P>I definitely agree that rejection from our significant other is a huge drain on self-esteem, especially when they have been unfaithful and, by all rights, should be begging, YES BEGGING! us to ALLOW them to come back to us (I love dramatic flair )<BR>Particularly hurtful is sexual rejection - I thought this to be mainly a male point of view, but you seem to feel this way too. <P>For me sexual intimacy is THE most powerful way for me to feel loved, appreciated, desired. To be rejected this way is like death.

Fiore, welcome to the site. I've been around for 6 weeks since I learned of my h's affair, and it has helped me a lot.<P>I'm also 38 and getting close to 9 years with my h. He's been cheating for the last 1 1/2 yrs. Besides this, we are more different than alike. I never even suspected him until the end because 1) we were close, but no longer passionate. 2) he betrayed not only me, but our religion, children and friends. For us, monogamy is essential.<P>You say comitment is not an issue, and yet the betrayal hurts just as much. I think you've just granted it is important. I've read all of Dr. Harley's books, and I don't believe any but monogamous relationships are sustainable over the long-run. And even "sanctified" marriages as you called them are no guarantee or we wouldn't all be here.<P>If by passion you mean the in-loveness, I do believe it is a result of all the other parts of a relationship. Did you read Harley's analogy of a love bank balance? I agree that being wined and dined without the love in his eyes doesn't satisfy. Sex without the love is even less so, even though oddly that is the one best thing we have going for us now. But is his desire for the secret, etc. the only thing standing in the way?<P>Our passion was gone almost since my son was born (he's almost 5). So much for kids bringing you closer. We have a 2 year old as well. We were very dubious whether following the Harley plan would bring back the passion, but it's working! About a week ago I started feeling the connection again. If you haven't already, read "recovering from an affair" by Harley and Chalmers, and His Needs/ Her Needs. We are also in counseling with Jennifer Harley Chalmers, the co-author of the book. She has been invaluable in helping us along.

Thank you, schizzo, for your kind welcome to this site. It is indeed helpful to express my feelings to those who have been through it.<P>I have read all of Dr. Harley's articles regarding recovery and have shared them with my mate. I was devasted to learn that sexual intimacy was no longer a priority for him in our relationship (it rated the lowest on Harley's "Primary Emotional Needs" test). He admitted, however, that if he were to fill out the form in regards to the OW, sex would rate very highly. In other words, sex remains a priority in his life, just not partnered with me.<P>The dilemma I'm faced with is whether or not I should keep working at this relationship when my mate is: a.) still mentally addicted to the lifestyle he gave up 6 months ago, and b.) unwilling to compromise certain aspects of his personality in order to withdraw from the addiction. For example, he says things like, "I love you and want this relationship to continue but I don't think I can give you what you deserve/need".<P>I suppose I need some guidance on what the parameters of Plan B should be. Or, am I merely fooling myself into thinking a Plan B is even possible?

I am not nearly as level-headed as I appear, 2sad4words. In fact, I have never experienced such a depth of pain, humiliation and sadness in all my life. I often look in the mirror and wonder who this person is that is staring back at me-- once the "strong", "balanced" woman who people sought out en masse for counsel and advice, has been reduced to a fearful, needy little girl...<P>You expressed my anguish precisely when you said, "For me sexual intimacy is THE most powerful way for me to feel loved, appreciated, desired. To be rejected this way is like death." It is particularly sad to note that I have received many kind words from friends who try and bolster me by reminding me of how "hot" I still am. They say things like, "Your man is a total fool not to see how inviting you are" -- or, even better, from those who actually know the OW: "She cannot hold a candle to you in either looks or personality". I would have relished these ego strokes 6 months ago, but they are like daggers to my heart now. They do not come from the person whose opinion matters. If I am as worthwhile as people say, then surely the man who claims to love me would be able to see that. <P>I've read many posts from people who say that sex with their partners is actually better now than it was previous to the admission of infidelity. Unfortunately, many of these posts also mention that they had never really experienced sexual intimacy before and are only now learning the beauty of true phsyical connection. What about couples who WERE fulfilled and lost it? Can sexual passion ever return then? Or is it a case of once you've been to the top it's only downhill from there?

Fiore,<P>Your friends think they are being nice when they are actually hurting your feelings - how sad. <P>But make sure that you don't judge your self-worth by whether men are turned on by you. Sexual attraction is not a substitute for love. The kind of sexual intimacy you refer to can be a way of expressing deep love, or it can simply be a way of getting your rocks off. <P>It is one thing to be hurt by the rejection, and another to let the rejection define your worth. Don't do that!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>What about couples who WERE fulfilled and lost it? Can sexual passion ever return then? Or is it a case of once you've been to the top it's only downhill from there?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>There are so many factors involved, not the least of which are A) your ability to get over the rejection, and B) discovering the cause of his lack of sexual interest in you.<P>By the way, you didn't answer my question about whether your openness to sharing your bed might be creating some sort of problem. I mean, it is probably most guys' dream to have a partner eager to experiment, but the reality of having your partner give themselves to others - that might be hard to take after a while.

My apologies, 2sad4words, for not addressing your earlier question about whether my openness to sharing our bed might be creating some sort of problem for my mate. (I guess I just got going on yet another emotional tangent and missed that part.)<P>In order to answer, a little historical reference is in order: Both of us brought experience in threesomes to this relationship when it began 9 years ago. We often used tales of our previous encounters as erotic material during our lovemaking. While we did not discount the possibility that such an act might actually occur one day (if given the right conditions), the adventure was never pursued in earnest. Frankly, the more in love I felt, the less interesting the idea was to me.<P>In contrast, my mate recently informed me that it was my decrease in enthusiasm to pursue explicit adventures that started making him feel sexually distant towards me. When I asked if he would feel jealous if I pursued other people right now, he said he didn't think he had the right to. When I asked how he would feel sharing someone with me, he said he wouldn't feel comfortable having me witness his attraction to a new person knowing how insecure I've become.<P>The reality is "open" relationships never work once emotional attachments are formed-- even mentioning it as a serious option given my present situation is admittedly ridiculous. They are merely the words of a desperate person trying to find ways to avoid the pain of total loss. My fatal mistake was becoming content and taking for granted he felt the same way. I stopped working on ways to keep sex (and love) fresh.<P>I suppose I only have myself to blame. If one decides to play with fire, there's a good chance of getting burned.