This is my first post. My H admitted December 22 to having 6 PA after I confronted him. I came to myself and confronted him again about my STD and told him that no matter what he said, I knew. So he admitted it. The next week while telling my sister on the phone some aspect of the ordeal my 20 year old daughter overheard. Now we are dealing with all the fallout of this and I am devestated. He says he hasn't been unfaithful for 15 years and it is in the long ago past and wants to be forgiven. We are in a church counceling and I am being encouraged to forgive. I am in a withdrawl mode right now. I have two other daughters and I am very concerned about this unraveling.

{artsy},<P>Forgiveness references...<P><B>Web sites..</B><BR><A HREF="http://www.divorcebusting.com/forumlinks4.html" TARGET=_blank>Forgiveness is a Gift You Give Yourself</A><BR><A HREF="http://forgivenessweb.com" TARGET=_blank>The Forgiveness Web</A><P><B>Books...</B><BR><OL TYPE=1><BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/034541344X" TARGET=_blank><B>The Art of Forgiving :</B> When You Need to Forgive and Don't Know How</A> by Lewis B. Smedes <BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060674318" TARGET=_blank><B>Forgive and Forget </B>: Healing the Hurts We Don't Deserve</A> by Lewis B. Smedes <BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0785282556" TARGET=_blank><B>The Choosing to Forgive Workbook</B></A> by Les Carter, Frank Minirth <BR></OL><P><B>Links to posts...</B><BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum31/HTML/000076.html" TARGET=_blank>Can I forgive?????</A>…..indy032…..1/31/2000<BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/003319.html" TARGET=_blank>Forgiveness.....</A>…..just_me…..6/5/2000<P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/006615.html" TARGET=_blank>How to rebuild my spouse's trust?</A>…..redman…..8/23/1999<BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum31/HTML/000274.html" TARGET=_blank>Things my husband did to rebuild trust</A>…..HGBrawner…..3/17/2000<BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/002831.html" TARGET=_blank>on knowing the "truth" </A>…..loveWASblind=lWb/popeye…..5/9/2000<P>I hope these help...<P> <P>Jim

artsy,<P>I hope you don't wierd out about this. But I checked your profile and notice you and I are in the same city. I hope you two are with a good church counselor. If you need any references I know of a couple of really good Christian counselors here.<P>My heart goes out to you over the devistating news. My prayers are with you both.

Thanks for responding. We are presently in church counseling but if you would like to give me the names that would be great. We will be switching to a Briarwood counselor soon.<P>Since this was a PA and not an EA I sometimes wonder if I have alot of room for the feelings or at this point, lack of feelings I'm having. My rage has subsided and now I am lacking in energy and just going through the motions. I wonder if marrying was the biggest mistake of my life. My children are wonderful, but can't help thinking about what the other two will go through when they find out. I'm not in the mood to control every mouth in sight againist that possibility. I've been told, in counseling, that it is certain they will find out. Thanks for responding.

artsy,<P>Briarwood is excellent. <p>[This message has been edited by Dogbert (edited March 09, 2001).]

artsy,<P>Have you heard of Bob Stone? He is really good but I am absolutely sure he charges, and maybe high. So I think this man (unless he is the one you are going to leave) is a good choice.<P>Are you not happy with your current one?

Dogbert, <BR>I would enjoy writing but being new to this forum, I don't understand how you got into my profile. Do you have my email address? If so you know who I am. I would like you to explain how that is done? <P>Thanks for responding. No trouble with the first people just a complication in my demands. I'll explain later.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by artsy:<BR><B> I don't understand how you got into my profile. Do you have my email address? If so you know who I am. I would like you to explain how that is done? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Sure. Next to every post you will notive a pair of sunglasses. If you click on the sunglasses another window will appear that shows the information you put it when you register. But you have to click the pair of sunglasses next to your name on your post. If you click the sunglasses next to my name you will see my info. However, I decided not to include any of my info.<P>No, your email is not displayed and I would not have emailed you anyway.<P>If you wish to remove that information you can. At the top of this page you will see a link called Profile. Click that and you will be prompted for your user name and password. After this you will see all your information like city, state, etc. Just clear all those boxes and Submit Changes and this will be erased.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Dogbert (edited March 11, 2001).]

Thanks for the information. I feel more secure now. It was great to know you live in the same town. <P>I wanted a few things in counseling. One was that H go in for individual counseling. The counselor was picked (Briarwood) but then he said he would only take us as a couple. This released us from our church's ministry but we will report back once a month. Really, my anger and rage has been a difficult thing for everyone. I am seeing an individual counselor. She's a Christian and it is expensive. It has been worth it as that is how I got strong enough mentally to confront H. For 15 years, I could tell you that a person with an std got it sexually. But for me, I couldn't go there. Go figure. I had been a counselor in a Sav-A-Life program telling young people that for five years. But I couldn't admit to myself that I must have gotten mine in the same way. Well, now I don't want anything to do with him. I am fully aware of the position unforgivness puts me in. I forgave H again this morning while taking communion. I just am so disillusioned and feel completely and utterly betrayed.

Artsy,<BR> You could be me.<BR> I have also been married 30 years.<BR> My H also gave me an STD....15 years ago. Is that how long it's been since you had the STD? It was only 1-1/2 years ago that H finally admitted to cheating one time. I believe that it was more than that.<BR> I also was in a sort of denial about H cheating. Every once in a while, during a fight, I would bring up that he must have cheated for me to come down with something that we BOTH had to be treated for.<BR> This is TOOOOOOO weird!<BR>LC

Hello lady, <BR>Love your MO. Definitely could have been mine. I did the same thing. Now I wonder about my sanity. It has given me great respect for the brain and how it will not go to any area of conflict if the knowledge will not benefit...you obviously know what I'm trying to say.<P>I too wonder about just 6 PA's only when I was traveling. Not anyone you know. One night stands, they just happened, I was drinking. We are having drag out battles over whether his father is an alcoholic. I have never known the man to be sober in 30 years, but he wonders....hmmmnnn is he reallllly an alcoholic, since he did manage to stop drinking. Yeah, it was his 6th time into the hospital and he died and came to life each time. Anyway, it's the dealing with reality on his part that puts me off. So why should I believe it was only 6 times, (only six times!!!!) when he can't see the simplist of facts. Maybe it goes to what I was saying earlier....he just can't go there.

Ladyclueless, <BR>I didn't answer your question about the STD. It was the cancerous type of HPV ...most are wart producing. I think that would have settled in with me quicker. But this was simply the "you have cancer but don't worry" type. I had laser surgery in 1986 for a 3 on a scale of 1 to 4 cancer level. I still have drs. that advise a hysterectomy. <BR> I had pap smears every 3 months for 3 years, then every 6 months for 5 years and then very regular smears for the rest of the time. I also change up labs and drs. regularly to make sure I'm beating the odds. Now with all that calculation, wouldn't you think I'd have recognized my problem. I had a girl friend that was Catholic and got the same thing. We both decided it must be from Tampax.....<P>Did I say I was almost 50? Tell me your story. I'd love to hear how many children if any? And what are you going to do? How are you doing in the forgiveness department?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by artsy:<BR><B>The counselor was picked (Briarwood) but then he said he would only take us as a couple. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Maybe you should try the man at Christ The King Lutheran Church (Riverchase). He would take people separately.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>She's a Christian and it is expensive. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Really? I didn't know there were any Christian women counselors here.<BR><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>forgave H again this morning while taking communion. </B><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It is a process I am sure. Sorry to hear about your pain.<P><BR>

Dogbert,<BR>I'm not familiar with the person at Christ the King. I don't know why they would take us. <BR>The therapist I am seeing is with LifeSource and she just happens to be a Christian. We have similar feelings but she is not opposed to divorce in my case. She also thinks forgiveness comes way down the line. <P>I had a terrible night with H. I told him that I don't love him anymore and that's the truth. It really flies in the face of working the program I'm sure. He doesn't seem to get it even though he says he does and is very repentent. I think he gets it now. <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by artsy:<BR><B>I don't know why they would take us. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well, I think maybe you should think smaller than what you are accustomed right now to dealing with. This is not quite the same as Lifesource or even Briarwood would be. This man used to be on staff at Briarwood and if you are interested in a spiritual nurturing style of counseling you would like him. Everything that he says is straight from scripture and if that is the kind of thing you want then maybe you should try him. It may cost you time that is all.<BR>

Thanks for the reference for Christ the King. What do you mean by think smaller and deal with less than I'm used to. <P>It got me thinking. I am a high D for dominant and I do tend to go at things with everything and the kitchen sink. I want action and I want it yesterday. I work very hard at my recovery and expect H to do the same. <P>As with most things his priorities are elsewhere. Like watching the stock market plummet and doing our taxes, visiting the old folks. <P>In addition to all our children's activities I am delivering his father to drs. appt. that last all day. I average two a week. Eyes, ears, heart, teeth, dentures, ... I am really trapped. <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by artsy:<BR><B>Thanks for the reference for Christ the King. What do you mean by think smaller and deal with less than I'm used to. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>All I mean is that he doesn't work for a large establishment like Lifesource or Briarwood.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>It got me thinking. I am a high D for dominant and I do tend to go at things with everything and the kitchen sink. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You would love this man because he likes to have you do the personality inventory and uses the DISC to understand your temperament. I am a High D, but have a pretty good I and C blend.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>In addition to all our children's activities I am delivering his father to drs. appt. that last all day. I average two a week. Eyes, ears, heart, teeth, dentures, ... I am really trapped. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>How much of you dedication is done out of guilt? That may sound harsh but I felt I should ask it that way.<P>Do you have trouble setting boundaries?<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Dogbert (edited March 13, 2001).]

Artsy,<P> This is gonna be long, but you asked.<P> My H gave me trichomonas, which isn't permanent or life-threatening, thank God.<BR> I thought I had this really bad yeast infection, so I doctored myself with Monostat 7. It would get better...enough so that I could have sex again, and then I'd get it again. I finally had to go to the doctor with it. Strangely enough, H decided that he'd go to the doctor with me. Anyway, the doctor downplayed it as just being one of those things that happens sometimes and gave us both medication for it. I guess I was in a state of denial, although it bugged the heck out of me for years. When I would accuse H of screwing around, he would then accuse me of being with someone else.<P>Anyway, I think that this caused me to build up resentment against my H...and I gradually withdrew from him over the years.<P>Finally, three years ago, my unhappiness had gotten so great and we were both living as strangers passing by from time to time. I decided that I needed to do something, so I guess I started doing a Plan A without even knowing it.<P>H was awful during that time. I started fixing myself up, new hairdo, new clothes, quit working so much to spend time with him, trying to be a better housekeeper and wife, etc. H would look at me as though he was disgusted by me....even flinched if I touched him. He had no desire to make love to me or even kiss me. The few times he'd try, he usually COULDN'T.<P>After about 3 months of this, we were out at a festival. One of his friends was there with his two babies (their mom had to work), so H volunteered me to watch the babies. I love children, so I had no problem with this. Anyway, I noticed that H would laugh and talk to the women he danced with, while he never does so with me. Afterwards, he came to sit by me. One woman (a friend) walked across the fairway in front of the area where we were sitting. H's eyes followed her all the way....and I could see absolute LUST in them. That's when it hit me....H must be cheating! At first, I thought it might be that woman, so I watched over the next couple of months. I never saw a thing going on, and finally decided that while H might like to get it on with her, he wasn't her type at all. So....I kept wondering WHO!<P>Finally, one Saturday, he made the remark that I looked like s***. I DID look like s***....after over 2 months of not sleeping, secretly crying my eyes out, and worrying. I asked H if he was in love with someone else. He never answered the question, saying, "Why would you think a thing like that? I thought we had a better relationship than that." Now, if you knew my H, you'd know that remark was totally unlike him. Anyway, when I tried to explain why I felt that way, he got angry and started saying things like, "Well, I've been accused, so I may as well go out and get some."<P>About a week later, we were out with friends, and upon being offered some of the appetizers we were all sharing, one single female friend refused. When urged to go ahead and help herself, she said, "Well, someday when I find somebody to love me as much as Lord Clueless loves Lady Clueless, I'll eat all I want and not care how big I get."<BR>Well, I had NEVER heard this friend make a catty remark, and I thought she was making a slam at my weight, so I looked at her with some surprise. She looked at me and said, "Lord Clueless does love you, Lady Clueless. He's told me so...many, MANY times." I looked at H, and he was sitting there really stiff, with his fake smile and saying, "Crazy 'bout her." A few days later, we all met again to have supper at a restaurant. She came in late. The only empty place left at our table was right beside me. She was very flustered and didn't even say hello to us. After a while, H wanted to move around to the other side of the table when a couple of people left. She and H kept looking at each other. When I got up to go to the restroom, I had to wait in line. I turned around, and she was standing there, glaring at me. She finally got up and went to sit with some other people who came into the restaurant. H was virtually ignoring me, but constantly trying to catch her eye.<P>A few days after that, I went out to the bar, thinking that I might catch H there. H called me on my cellphone as I was parking, wanting to know where I was. (Funny, he was always calling me on my cellphone to see where I was, or he was calling me at home or work, asking, "Did you call me?" This was before we got Caller ID on our cellphones, and I think he was trying to make sure I was out of the way.) Anyway, I told him I was at the bar. He said, "I'm almost there." Well, OW was there. She wouldn't even speak to me. One of H's male friends and his wife was there, and the male friend kept looking from me to the OW, as though he was expecting a fight. H came in, and we ate. OW kept looking toward us and glaring at us. I had to leave (didn't want to, but had an unbreakable appointment). I found out that she joined my H after I left.<P>I think that my H decided to "cool it" after our confrontation, and OW wasn't liking it a bit. I think that H probably thought after I calmed down, he could pick back up where he left off.<P>Well, we had a few go-'rounds about her. I don't know if he had a sexual affair with her (so where WAS he getting 'IT'????!!!), but I do believe he had an emotional affair with her. He never admitted to a thing. I put my foot down about his going to eat lunch at her restaurant unless I was with him.<P>Well, almost a year later, I caught him up there. I called him up on and told him that I hope he enjoyed his f***ing lunch. He came back to work and I was letting him have it. A customer came in, so I had to wait on the customer. While I was doing that, H left, saying he was going back to work.<P>I got so mad that I wrote him a letter, closed up the shop, went home, packed my bags, drove to the nearest big city, parked my car at the airport, rented a car, bought a wig and went back to town and got a motel room. I finally called him to let him know that I was all right and to see what he had to say. He finally confessed to the one-night stand that gave me the STD. Turns out that the tramp is dead. She died of cancer. To be quite honest, I was hoping that she clawed herself to death by scratching that STD.<P>Anyway, H has never confessed to anything else. To even mention his cheating is a lovebuster. He says that he's not going to be "punished", blah, blah. He acts as though his cheating was no big deal. Looking back over the past thirty years, there were other times when my cheating antennae went up, but I kept telling myself, "Nah, he wouldn't do that."<P>I think I've forgiven him for cheating with the STD Tramp. I even think I've forgiven him for cheating with this last OW, because I can see that I surely wasn't meeting his needs.<P>I haven't forgiven him for the lies, and therein lies my inability to get over this.<P>We have two children and four grandchildren, and we lost two children due to stillbirth, plus had 6 miscarriages.<P>And, now I have to deal with this crap....for probably the rest of my life unless I get to the point where I absolutely can't stand it anymore. Sometimes, I think I'm pretty close to that point. A lot of times, I feel totally fed up.<P>Right now, I'm feeling that way because I found out that he's been going to her restaurant without me again. Well, two can play that game. He got mad at the bartending wife of the bar's owner, so he asked me not to go there anymore. Well, H is out of town tonight, and I went to the bar. I'm sure he'll hear about it and have something to say. Good! <P>I haven't worked out exactly what I'll say yet, but I will say it calmly and sweetly so that he gets the point that he also needs to respect my feelings.<BR>LC

Dear Artsy<P>I must say I'm completely horrified by your last post! My mouth hung open all the way through - I'm serious!!<P>How absolutely ghastly to get an STD from your H, most probably because of OW!! I'd have to restrain myself from hitting him in the head for doing that!!<P>I don't really have any advice for you, other than to say, continue your treatments at the doctor's.<P>Well, there is one more advice: GIVE IT ALL TO GOD. I don't know if you're a Christian or not, but you need to come to God - NOW - and tell him everything, even if he knows already. It will be extremely theraputic for you. You need to come to that place where God will control your heart, and then and only then you will find the strength to forgive your H for all the pain (physicall, mental and emotional) that he put you through.<P>I can only say I'm stunned at this whole affair. We'll pray for you.<P><P>------------------<BR>CPL

CPL and Lady Clueless, <P>Thanks so much for the replies. As you know this board is so great for reactions when you don't trust your own.<P>H is very remorseful and has become more so as he has been completely cut off. I have moved into another room where I feel more comfortable. <P>Yes, we are bible believing, tithing, faithful Christians and that is a story in itself. I will share more of my frustrations and hope you will comment. I love the Lord, but I wonder how far I can go with forgiveness. I told H that I forgive him but I don't love him anymore. I don't think divorce is really an option. I understand misery and can't even imagine a full and joyful life so living together separately has been fine for me. Better than before. We are in counseling with a Christian couple and also in marriage seminar with 6 other couples. Now that's a trip. Wouldn't they die if they heard my story and that's only half of it. I'm dealing with the shame and emotions of not being a stronger woman. I have three wonderful girls, all accomplished and serving the Lord. My H thinks drinking is okay and I have totally said that won't be a part of our lives anymore. Red flags went up when I read Lady Clueless's references to bars. That whole scene scares me to death. Alchol has played a big part in our misery. H can hardly relate to me anyway and after a glass of wine....it is really impossible for him to be with me mentally. <P>Thanks again...got to go to marriage ministries.