I must offer an apology of sorts - many particiants here have gone though situations much worse than what I am about to discuss, however my question applies across the board, and I have not seen it discussed.<BR>What do you do when you are stuck in that awful "grey zone" between suspecting you have been betrayed, and actually having any evidence to confront your partner with?<BR>You have spotted the body language, heard snippets of conversations, caught the innuendos that were supposed to be too obscure for you to recognize. You know. But you haven't caught anyone in bed..in fact, you don't even have so much as one midnight e-mail.<BR>I am engaged to an active, tender and interesting guy. Our time together has been honest, hard work, great fun and very creative. We have a loving and supportive network of family and friends. All was well until one of our female friends chose to ignore the boundaries of our relationship. I believe that this female friend kissed, or attempted to kiss my partner. I also believe that my partner's rebuff was probably complimentary, gentle and accomodating. He finds it inconceivable that any woman could be capable of manuipulation or deceit. This kiss may or may not have led to phonecalls, or another encounter. I calmly and sincerely approached my partner twice. Both times, I was greeted with puzzlement, then reassurances that he would never jeopardize our relationship through doing something like kiss this friend. <BR>In January, my partner and I became engaged. Since that time, I have noticed a sharp dropoff in the innuendos and catty behaviour on the part of this "friend". Almost as if she accept the barrier the engagement poses to her. The problem is what has happened within me. In the past 6 months, I have become a full-fledged, rip-roaring snoop. I have worked through disbelief and pain over this betrayal (by the way, just so you all know I'm not totally crackers, I overheard enough out of her at a party to know that at the very least, the kiss happened. Well, guess what six months of pocket-searching, e-mail reading, eavesdropping, drawer searching, phonebill perusing and grilling 2 close friends has gained me? NOTHING. Aside from this incident, my partner seems to be hiding nothing from me. So here I am, stuck with this painful fact, having been lied to, unable to prove my case, and making myself obsessed over this. Before this, I felt quite happy most of each and every day. Now, I think about this painful puzzle every day.<BR>I figure my choices are a) Realize that I'm one of the lucky ones. See this as a wakeup call to never take fidelity for granted and try to build a thriving marriage b) pursue the truth until I find it. I will then have some peace, some answers and some closure. c) Fill in the blanks guys, because I'm out of answers.<BR>How does anyone get out of "zone"?<BR>Love and prayers to those in far more dire situations.<BR>Robyn<p>[This message has been edited by Robyn's Clues (edited March 29, 2001).]

Welcome <B>name</B>...<P>There is a post of general welcome I wish to share with you... <BR>(the welcome is infidelity oriented)<P>It has a lot of quick links to many of the <B>most</B> important MB sites...<BR>Click here ==> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000553.html" TARGET=_blank>General Welcome for All New Builders(Newbies)</A><P><B>About your post</B>...<P>It's a tough one...<P>I'd suggest some marriage preparation program...<BR>Perhaps the Harley's can give you some recommendation.<P>In any case... try to follow the general principles here...<BR>and most importantly... follow... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Four Rules for a Successful Marriage</A>.<P> <P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000254.html" TARGET=_blank>Jim</A> / <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000037.html" TARGET=_blank>NSR</A>

Hello Robyn<P>Sounds like me a few weeks/month ago. Well, if you think your suspicions are valid, then they are. You can never be too carful. But try not to be too obsessed with searching everything. He will find out and then figure that you don't trust him. <P>I found a recurring telephone number on our telephone bill and confronted my husband about the number. He did pretend not to know at first, but somehow I cornered him and he admitted that it was a friend of his (read my complete story on "Just found out - what do I do now?") Suffice it to say I was not satisfied but left the subject untouched for two weeks. <P>Finally I chose a time when we were both relaxed watching tv one evening and our son was asleep. Then from tips I got here at this site, I expressed my love for him plainly and and then asked him gently to describe the relationship with his "friend". I was sure to maintain eye contact during the questioning and the explanation, and he assured me that there was nothing going on, etc (read the site mentioned above) and I accepted it.<P>So now, I don't search anymore and I enjoy our relationship as it is now. I still keep an open eye but am not obsessing about it - otherwise I'll go crazy just wondering.<P>Hope I've helped. My advice is gentle confrontation with expressions of love, touching, etc. If you're not married as yet, PLEASE work this out BEFORE you get married, otherwise there'll be hell to pay when you do get married! Settle it first!!<BR><P>------------------<BR>CPL

If you read my story can someone change after so long. You will see that some years ago I had a incident much like you are discribing for you fiance. I choose to bury it in the fear that it would have for my marriage. I thought it innocent enough. How wrong I was. It came back to destroy my marriage of 24 years. The pain that we have experienced is beyond discription. The damage to my family and friends is devastating.<BR>My wife now tells me that her affair of recent was a result of the building of doubt and anger over what happened to me many years ago that I never discussed it with her. It is much like a small wound. If not dealt with it can fester and ultimately kill you. <BR>I would encourage anyone who has doubts or who may be hiding a secret to bring it out and deal with it. If you fail to do so it will come back and haunt you at some latter date, and at a level that is far worse than resolving it today.<BR>Sit him down, share my story with him, tell him how you feel and ask him for the truth no matter how painful. If you love him, You may be able to forgive. My wife threatened me with divorce so many years ago so I never spoke up. Be gentle with him encourage the truth so that you both can marry with peace in your hearts. Lingering doubts will kill. <BR>The alternatives is to move on. Don't let that wound fester clean it out today.<BR>The best to you

Caribgirl and Torpedoed:<P>Thank you from the bottom of my heart for taking an interest in my situation. I loved receiving you insights, made more valuable because I'm hearing from both sexes. I have read both your stories and wish you all the best in your respective situations.<P>I agree that this must be dealt with before we marry, which is in about a year. It has been confusing to me that someone who has exhibited many fine qualities to me has lied about this. Because we were buddies for so many years, I heard ALL the dirt from my guy...and he never mistreated or cheated on any girlfriend prior to me.<BR>Things between us are very good, except for my obsession, pretty cleverly hidden. (by the way, I don't use the word obsession loosely - I think my human snoop-a-thon is ridiculous. I'm stuck with only gut feelings and half-heard conversations. I WANT to stop because it's a waste of my energy, but I'm afraid of missing that ONE piece of evidence I need to table the issue, confront it, and hopefully move on.) <BR>We have been very lucky in that we do most things together. The Harleys have been able to confirm my gut feeling that this is the right thing to do. We play volleyball, baseball, participate in charity tournaments, shop, eat, sleep and even bathe together. I have seen a flourishing in him in the two years we have been together. <P>There is one thing I am waiting for before tackling this. He lost his job in Nov. due to downsizing. I think he is close to two offers now, but still unemployed and feeling bored, frustrated helpless and angry. During this time, we have remained very close and he has verbalized these feelings to me. <BR>When he feels pride and relief to be working again, I will raise this issue.<P>I know how wrong it is to go through another person's things. Believe me, it makes me ashamed. I've looked in the odd pocket before, but never like this. I know he doesn't suspect me. He asks about even the most subtle changes in my moods. I want to stop, but I want to find something to support my suspicions equally. <P>Anyway, way too rambly, sorry. <BR>Many thanks, this already has helped so much<P>Robyn (Snoopy).<P><BR>

Robyn's Clues,<P>Maybe he didn't tell you about the kiss because he knew you would act like you have acted. It seems to me some perspective is called for here.<P>1. You weren't engaged when the alleged incident occured.<P>2. You weren't married when the alleged incident occured.<P>3. In all of your searching you have turned up no evidence of your fiance (sp) misbehaving in anyway, no phone numbers, emails, nothing in his personal affects, nothing at all.<P>4. The other girl in this picture changed her behavior as soon as you two became engaged. Suggesting that now that you were official he was hands off.<P>5. You were surprised to get an engagement ring from him so that means it is likely that other people including your BF weren't sure until the presentation of the ring that he was ready to get married.<P>6. If he kissed a girl before engagement or marriage he has broken no vows.<P>Torpedo's situation is a bit different, but basically his W is using an almost no event to justify her behavior and her paranoia about her him.<P>Are you doing something similar? You have no evidence what's so ever that your BF has been anything but true to you since you two became engaged. You will have a year to collect more data in this regard.<P>I will tell you this. If you persist in this behavior and/or he finds out you have been snooping, you may not get married. If you have a problem with him, speak to him, be honest and open.<P>I will offer you a slightly different point of view. I was a batchelor until my 30's. I dated many girl/women in my time. I dated them while dating my prospective W, even did more than kissing, but the day I asked her to marry me was the last of anything. I have been married 25 years now with not the slightest interest in betraying her or kissing another woman . Your BF may have a similar outlook. <P><B>A commitment isn't a commitment until it is made.</B><P>He has now committed to you, I have a feeling he won't kiss another woman as long as the commitment is in place. Perhaps I am wrong, but you don't have any evidence to show for it to be otherwise.<P>One thing I can say to you, that if you don't trust him now don't marry him. Trust is a hugh factor in a marriage and one of the most difficult things to recover after an affair. Just keep reading here and you will see the truth of that statement.<P>So please stop and think about why you are so paranoid about this. Why you don't trust your H inspite of having no evidence to suggest that he won't honor his commitment. If he did kiss that girl it was before the commitment, not after.<P>Please read here, please listen to the many people here, and please decide if this is your problem being projected on to him or it is his problem. If it is his how can he solve it for you?<P>God Bless,<P>JL<p>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited March 16, 2001).]

Robyn's Clues...<P>As someone who has been affected by an affair and is now in the process of rebuilding, I would like to offer you this...<P>What you are doing, in my opinion, is NOT the best thing for your relationship.<BR>You already know that your fiance is keeping something from you...you know how that feels inside - and yet you are deceiving him. How fair is that?<BR>He is under the impression that you trust him, and want to spend the rest of your life with him - he has no idea of the things you are doing to catch him in his lies.<BR>Wouldn't it be better to sit down with him and lay it all out on the table now? You don't need concrete proof...you have your feelings - and those are valid enough.<BR>Be open and honest about your feelings towards what you know happened, and what you think may have happened. Let him know that you love him, and that this has become an issue that you find yourself unable to resolve alone.<BR>Ask him to love you enough, and value your relationship enough to be totally open and honest with you.<BR>Be FIRM, but GENTLE...don't attack. Use the 'I feel' language, and you may be surprised with the results.<P>If you let things continue the way they are going, this will grow within you, possibly to a point where you find it impossible to trust him at all. If you really plan to marry him, doesn't that marriage deserve to start with a clean slate on both ends?<P>Come clean with him about where your head is at and what you are doing, and give him a new and honest chance to do the same. If you can sort all this out sooner rather than later you have a better chance at the strong, open, honest, loving, committed relationship that so many of us here are struggling to attain.<P>Good luck to you.<P>

Well, everyone has given me alot to think about, which is what I had hoped for. Just Learning, I think you are very insightful and your comments have helped me significantly. I would like to offer a few notes:<P>1) At the time the incident of the kiss occurred, my BF and I had been in a monogamous, sexual relationship for a year. Despite being unmarried, I believe I had reasonable cause to be upset by a female friend disregarding that committment, and by any participation on the part of my BF. If we had been "dating", I fully understand that either of us could have dated other people, kissed them, etc. <P>2) I do believe that there is some paranoia and/or projection going on on my part. This did not manifest itself until after I had approached my BF on 3 occasions in the gentle, constructive and non-blammatory manner everyone here has suggested (and thank you). After that, I became obsessed with this situation.<P>3) Until this point, and still to my BF's knowledge, people who know me would describe me as easygoing, approachable, open-minded and someone who understood the value of allowing the other person breathing room. I do not like how I have allowed this to affect me.<P>4) My obsession was magnified by the behaviour of this other female after the kiss, but before the engagement. She was coy, catty, whispered stuff, came on to my BF and treated our relationship with disrespect. This has actually never happened to me before, and I think I have handled it badly. I should have just told her where to go, and be done with it.<P>5) My partner has done nothing since becoming engaged to me to break my trust in him. He has therefore earned my trust until he proves otherwise.<P>6) I honestly believe that if my partner chooses to engage in infidelity, it will surface on it's own, without me performing DNA analysis on his belongings. It is my choice what kind of home environment I want to provide for us, which is a happy, trusting stable one.<P>7) I have made a decision to spend my private time working on maintaining my own sense of balance and purpose, instead of snooping. I can continue to make myself ill, or I can move ahead. <P>8) If I still find this event troubling me, I will pursue it through honourable channels, which is to ask him again.<P>This forum has allowed me to reach this decision, and I will check in to verify that I have stuck with my plan.<P>XO<BR>Robyn

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Robyn's Clues:<BR><B>Well, everyone has given me alot to think about, which is what I had hoped for. Just Learning, I think you are very insightful and your comments have helped me significantly.</B><P>JL has helped many people here, and you should listen to his advice.<P>My thoughts are this:<P>On the one hand, you don't want paranoia to kill a great relationship.<P>On the other hand, your feelings about this incident and this girl in particular are very real, and if buried will become at worst a cancer that will eat your marriage or at best an silent impediment to your relationship being as strong as it should.<P>Time is on your side, as you have a year before the wedding. I think you are to be lauded for holding off on this while he is in the dumps about the job situation. I also think you are very wise to be visiting a site like this PRIOR to marriage and anticipating trouble before it happens. In furtherance of that mode, you may want to visit <A HREF="http://www.personalitytype.com" TARGET=_blank>www.personalitytype.com</A> and look into how your fiancee and you match up, personality-wise (as based on Myers-Briggs personality types). Many of us have found that to be incredibly revealing. I would especially recommned the book "Just Your Type". You can read more about this stuff on the EN board here.<P>Finally, if I were in your shoes, when you did have this talk about this other woman with your fiancee, I would make sure that an outcome of that talk is an agreement to remove this woman from your social circle. She will be a thorn in your side if you drift along seeing her on a regular basis. <P>I think your H is a lucky man to have a mate who is putting this much thoughtful attention into the relationship at this early stage.<P>Good luck!<P>Mike<P>

Mike:<P>Thank you for your interest, and for your positive comments. I am remaining strong in my decision to stop "investigating" my partner and to use my energy for more positive activities. I read your message at mid-day today, and it gave me such a lift! <P>Robyn