I have been married 5 years. I've never really suspected my husband was cheating although we have had huge issues over his lack of honesty in other areas. He has sworn many times that he wouldn't lie to me anymore. We started counseling but the therapist was very poor and actually made things worse so we stopped. Anyhow, right before Christmas he was acting a little unusual. Actually, he was being "nicer" than usual a couple of weeks before (flowers/etc). I just thought the best. The next day I tried reaching him at work (he usually calls me at lunch time but hadn't). He wasn't there. Later that afternoon he called me (he was at work--we have caller id) and was acting very suspicious. He actually told me he loved me on the phone --that may not sound strange but considering he never once in the 7 years I have known him said that on the phone from work. My instinct told me that something was going on, I thought maybe he had gone out to lunch with his co-workers (it was Friday) and felt bad letting me know because I'm stuck home with the baby all the time. He got home a little late that night. I was cool. He asked if I was upset that he was late, and said that he was held up with a meeting. I said no, I was upset that he was acting so suspiciously when he called and wondered if there was something he needed to tell me. He started acting weird again and then said that as it turned out he took a long lunch to go christmas shopping for me, and was acting weird because he was afraid I might think he was out partying with co-workers. I said even if he was I wouldn't care, I just didn't want him lying. He swore up and down that he wasn't lying. I wanted to believe him and did-so it was dropped. However a while ago I came across an envelope of Christmas receipts. He did not make any purchases the afternoon he said he did (he's extremely meticulous about his record keeping and saves EVERY receipt for anything he buys), but did make a purchase during the time he said he was in a meeting . We got in an argument about something else recently and I brought this up. He got very angry at me when I told him I found a receipt that contradicted what he had told me. I asked him why he told me he was in a meeting when in reality he wasn't even at work, especially when he had sworn at the time to me that he wasn't lying. And why weren't there any receipts from that afternoon that he supposedly WAS shopping? He said he didn't buy anything then. He also went shopping on two other occasions, for which there are receipts. Believe me, my husband hates to shop, usually waits until the last minute and gets everything in one or perhaps one and a half trips. I can't imagine that he went shopping twice in one day and spent the first trip not buying anything. I'm not sure where he was for that long lunch break but I have a feeling he stopped quickly on the way home to pick something up in case he needed to prove he was shopping at lunch time. Which leads me to wonder why it was so important to lie about where he was in the afternoon. Yet I am feeling very guilty for being so suspicious. My gut just tells me he's not telling the truth. He won't back down and we had a huge fight last night. Any opinions?

I think you have no evidence of an affair and your mind has conjured up all kinds of scenarios. Have you come out and asked him? <P>Get evidence before you continue.

Hi. Thanks for your response. I guess I probably posted this on the wrong board because my concern is not that he is having an affair (I don't think he is). My concern is the dishonesty and lies that have plagued our marriage. He had promised me that there wouldn't be anymore lies so I didn't want to believe he was lying again. I was really wondering if it sounded like he was lying about this situation or if I was just being paranoid. But thanks for responding!

That's fine.<P>Do you feel he needs to tell you everything he does? I mean, does he deny "things" when confronted with the truth?<P>

Hi-in reply-no I don't feel he needs to tell me everything. Up until we had our baby, we never even talked to each other during the day. I'm very removed from his workday life (he works out of town and I've never even been to his office). There were plenty of times I assumed he probably went out after work, went out to lunch, etc. but never asked because I didn't think it was important, also since he never shared that kind of information with me I was trying to respect his privacy and not seem like I was smothering him. But unfortunately I guess I should have asked him more questions before I married him because a lot of stuff came out after our marriage that I should have known. At first it was just that he omitted telling me things but then when I started asking him he began the lying. He would also lie totally unprovoked. I have examined my role in all this many times and recognized that I have been wrong many times in reacting badly when I found things out and have worked on that. He admits that he is a conflict avoider and would rather lie than deal with conflict. We've been through hell and back over these issues and I have been working hard at rebuilding my trust in him, that's why I was so concerned to think he would still lie. Maybe he's not; I'm beginning to feel that I need to just give him the benefit of the doubt here and drop it. I'm just afraid of getting hurt again. I'm also really afraid that if he keeps giving himself permission to lie to me that it could eventually to a bigger problem. While I don't think he's been unfaithful in our marriage, I know that he had an affair with a married woman before I met him (he was single, she was married). I also try not to judge him on this, as we have all made our mistakes. I just need him to be honest with me.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tinsel:<BR><B>I know that he had an affair with a married woman before I met him (he was single, she was married).</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Could this be the source of all your problems? The knowledge that he did this before and you are heightened to any signs of dishonesty which COULD lead to adultery?<P>Could be.<P>Other than that, what are the major things on which you both have argued and fought regarding his dishonesty? Anything really bad?<P>

The main thing we have fought about was my discovery that he lead a life before we met that I knew nothing about until after we were married. It's a long story that's difficult to relate. He shared very little about his past relationships before our marriage and I didn't probe because I didn't really want to hear about it anyway. I regret that now. Basically he took advantage of me financially and I believe was abusive emotionally. I was a single parent with a modest income, he was a single professional with a very good income. Yet rarely spent any money when we were dating; I paid my own way plus always paid for the babysitter when we went out (which was usually the biggest expense of the night). We never went away for a weekend and took one vacation alone camping in a tent. The engagement ring he said he was getting me never materialized. Then he said we needed to fix up his house because he wanted to sell it and move into mine when we got married. We did all the work ourselves (every weekend for over a year). He started asking me to pick things up for the house but never paid me back (hundreds of dollars). I was beginning to get concerned but kept making excuses to myself. We could only take a 2 night honeymoon so I suggested we stay somewhere nice. He was not happy about and complained about the cost but agreed to it. Then he broke his arm right before the wedding and cancelled the room, saying that he wouldn't be able to use the jacuzzi and booked us into the cheapest room in a very marginal place. When we got there and the innkeepers realized it was our honeymoon they upgraded us to a nicer room for no cost. When we returned from the "honeymoon" we talked a little about finances--he said he would pay me $50 a week to live in my house since he wasn't sold. By Christmas I was broke (still hadn't paid off the expenses from before the wedding). I told him it would help if he gave me a little more. He got angry because I was upset, but did increase his payment to $100/week. It was around this time I learned that he was making almost three times my income, had a very substantial savings/investment plan and much to my shock had spent a combined 7 years in two other relationships taking his girlfriends to some of the most exotic/expensive resorts--islands in the carribbean, aspen ski vacations, disney world, and generally lived an extravagant life style that included NY theatre, weekends at expensive romantic hotels, chartered sailing trips, etc. etc. I can't even list it all. And he admitted that he paid for these trips! I almost died. It took a long time to get all of this out and he lied almost every step of the way. He finally started telling the truth last Fall in counseling. . To this day he says he doesn't know why he never gave me anything, all he can say is that he was being "selfish" when he met me. Worse, some of these fights led to physical abuse. That has stopped, and I am trying to find a counselor so I can figure out how I let this happen.

Did your H lie or is he just cheap? Sounds like you do need counselling about the physical abuse part. That should never be tolerated. My H has also had problems with the truth in the past. I have read the book - When your lover is a liar. I think the author is Susan Forward. Very good book. Wish I had read it years ago. Maybe if the lying had been addressed sooner my H wouldn't have had an A. My H hasn't so much outwardly lied, he has most often told the truth when asked. Lying also includes withholding information and deception. The book explains what lying and deception is. <P>Good luck and hope you never have to go down the same path I did!

Yes, my H did lie. When asked point blank he will make up lies and deny that he is lying. And terms of being cheap-- it seems the only woman he has ever been cheap with is me--which is something I have never been able to understand. He said he doesn't know why either, but I don't think he ever spent the time trying to figure it out.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tinsel:<BR><B>I am trying to find a counselor so I can figure out how I let this happen. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Watch out for this attitude. I don't see anything anywhere that shows you were to blame for his actions. He did this on his own accord and you didn't DO anything to deserve it. In my opinion anyway.<P>If I were just the casual outside observer (hey I really am), I could ask "Could your husband have jerked back to the other extreme after spending so much on the previous girlfriends and found himself to be a tightwad not wanting to lose that investment of his?" Maybe he hasn't found the center yet.<P>I guess it is a dangerous thing to know about your spouse's previous life huh? Everybody has one and if you want to know about it you have to be able to deal with it. Maybe he was ashamed of his past and didn't want to tell you. <P>There could be lots of reasons for his actions. I do not want villify him. But I do agree he hasn't treated you well at all.<P>

Thanks for your response. You don't know how good it feels to have shared this with someone--I've never talked to anyone about this. As soon as issues smack of anything financial, especially "who got what" situations that involve ex-lovers, it seems that people sometimes jump to the conclusion that it is just petty. For me it was never about the money or how much he spent, it was about why he never wanted to share the side of life (i.e. fun/romance/courtship) that he so freely and generously shared with others. I was so in love with him that I just wanted to be near him even if it was painting closet doors in his basement. I can't imagine how wonderful it would have been to be in beautiful romantic spot with nothing to do but enjoy each other. Or at least feel that he wanted that with me too. Oh well, the past is the past (at least that's what I keep working on). As I said before, we started counseling but the therapist wouldn't go near any of the hot issues. I think she was afraid of ticking one of us off and losing us as clients (it was a new practice). I was prepared to hear difficult things about myself if necessary, I didn't want everything sugarcoated because I wanted things to get better. Back to your comment about him reigning in the finances after the last two relationships--yes, I have considered that to. I've considered everything. I also thought it may have been in part due to his commitment problem--both those women wanted marriage and he had no intention of that. Maybe he felt guilty so he gave them a lot of material things. And since commitment was so difficult for him, since he was willing to give me that I got nothing else.<P>I should also add that after a few years of marriage he began accepting that our life needed to be more than constant chores/projects and goes along with the vacation plans I make. He doesn't complain about the cost too much anymore (nothing extravagant, I'm not an extravagant person) but I can't exactly say he is too enthusiastic. Oh well, at least there is a compromise. He is working on the lying I think but I still have a hard time trusting him. I guess I can understand lying about something to avoid getting in trouble (heck I've done that myself) but I could never understand some of the weirder lies he told me. For example, when we were thinking about starting a family he told me that he didn't know if he could have kids. He said he had never had his sperm count checked (I was wondering why anyone would if they weren't trying)so he hoped everything was normal. Well while I was pregnant things came to a head about some of his other lies and he started telling me things that he had lied about/kept from me. One was that his girlfriend had an abortion. Now I don't think he needed to share that with me--it was between him and her but why they heck did he tell me that he didn't know if he was fertile? When I asked him that he got FURIOUS and denied he ever said that! Yet we had that conversation on at least two occassions. I found this whole thing kind of scary. Which is why I'm having such a hard time with the trust thing. I'm trying to get him to go to individual counseling as well, but he's not too enthusiastic. He says he feels he can work on his problems on his own. Anyhow, thanks for listening--this is the first time in five years I've shared this!

I completely understand. You need a support system away from your husband so you can build up your confidence to face this and work it out. <P>You do sound like there are are some serious issues with him. Maybe he has a past he wants to hide and get away from. <P>Are you two in love otherwise?

Yes, I really believe we are. I know I am in love with him. We have periods when things are great and then we go into these dark times. We had a big fight the other night. This morning I told him that I think my biggest problem was because of all the lies/surprises that came out after the marriage that I lost the belief that this was the "love of a lifetime" that we used to say it was. He got really upset and started to cry. He said I truly was his real love. He used to tell me that he had never felt he really loved anyone before me. Then a few months ago he told me that he did love someone else (which I certainly accept--I never expected a guy at almost 40 to have never loved anyone before!). This was the woman he had the affair with. They had dated for a couple years, he wouldn't marry her so she left him. They were both involved with other people but would sleep together on ocassion. Then his current girlfriend demanded it stop so they supposedly stopped seeing each other. The first girlfriend got married but looked him up on a visit (she had moved across the country) and they started sleeping together again when she was in his part of the country (by this time girlfriend #2 had broken up with him). I don't know if the husband ever found out or not, I'm not sure what ever happened. But until me he never had another serious relationship (over 8 years). Sometimes I wonder if this woman was the love of his life that he never got over (hence his willingness to risk an extramarital affair), but he insists that she wasn't. He insists that it was me. Sometimes I admit that I get paranoid that she might pop back into the picture from time to time, because he admits that she is a very assertive person, impulsive person that seems to enjoy the intrigue of sneaking around. She could easily contact him at work and I would never know. But I really don't spend much time thinking about that, and don't really think it is happening--it's just my insecurity.

Ah, what a tale! I think you have reasons to be concerned based on what you told me. You sound like you are in a fix of sorts and don't know what to do. He sounds like he has issues and he does need to go for counseling because with a past like that I am sure his present is effected. The things you have told me indicate some serious character issues that should be addressed.<P>STOP thinking you are overreacting. You are not.

I agree that you are not overreacting. Get counselling. Unfortunately though, I think your H has to want to accept counselling as well and want to face his issues. If he doesn't want to, I don't know if we can make them do this. My H has similar problems with lying and both the c and I believe he has to address his past. Some days he might agree but most he thinks that his past has nothing to do with his present. Right now all I feel I can do is wait and hope he comes to his senses. In the meantime I have to be responsible for my own life and decide if I want to allow his "problems" to keep upsetting my life. I guess I'm giving him a year to come to this realization (I hope), if not my life will be without him. In the meantime I'm working on myself and getting stronger.

Thank you dogbert and trueblue. I appreciate the time you took to respond to my concerns. I just heard from the counselor and hope to start soon. He's willing to go to marriage counseling but not individual counseling. Unfortunately we had little success with this the last time.

Keep us up to date.