To all,<P>Here is the scoop from Steve. WArning: LONG!<P>Started the session with Steve telling me about the 2 kinds of love:<P>1) Romantic love - when you think about the person all the time, want to be intimate with that person, with intimate meaning more than sex - want to share personal things, etc.<P>2) Caring love - the kind you fel for your kids, family, close friends - more of a "bond"<P>Why do you originally fall in love with someone? Because you like the way that person <BR>- looked<BR>- acted<BR>- treated you<BR>- talked to you<BR>- and how that person avoided doing anything that made you unhappy<P>This means that love is CONDITIONAL - conditionhal on the above things. To stay in love, we must continue to do more of the same above for each other.<P>The FEELING of being in love with someone, according to Steve, is NOT a choice nor a decision. It is the cumulative effect of your interaction with another person.<P>From Steve: unmet needs, neglect and abuse are NOT the CAUSES of infidelity - they are catalysts and contributing factors. The cause of infidelity is a series of POOR CHOICES. It begins by not understanding your own weaknesses and vulnerability. If you do not know what these are, then you don't know how to protect yourself and then you ARE vulnerable. Along comes someone who recognizes those vulnerable parts and can meet them very well and BOOM! The infidel steps on the slippery slope....<P>Steve says my H has weaknesses - we ALL have weaknesses and are therfore, all vulnerable. When our needs are not being met, our weakinesses become BIGGER and HARDER to protect.<P>In that sense, the infidelity is a shared responsibility. For instance, Icould have helped my H to reduce the size of his vulnerability and weaknesses by meeting his needs. However, HE is responsible alone for his own actions and poor choices. His poor choices lead to the addiciton of the affair.<P>Now, I need to help him recover from his addiction. PlanA is designed for me to make my own changes and redirection. It sets a positive track record of my willingness to change to meet his needs.<P>PlanB is designed to primarily protect myslef from losing love for my H, because it is CONDITIONAL love that I have for him. PlanB removes you from repeated reminders of what he is doing (ongoing affair), because those reminders kill my love for him.<P>Steve asked me why did my H marry me? Steve's answer was this:<P>Because you gave him a REASON to marry you - he felt it was inhis best interest to do so.<P>PlanA can not be sustained forever, because if the reality is that the affair is continuing, that crerates other problems by denying that the ongoing affair bothers the betrayed person.<P>In order to win my H back, I have to give him something else to focus on besdies the OW - ME!<P>Another problem is in doing PlanA or PlanB. Steve says there is NOTHING inbetween -no modifications or hybrid is acceptable. You are either in PlanA or in PlanB and will miss the objectives if you try anything else.<P>So, here is the plan Steve and I mapped out for me:<P>1) Go back to PlanA for right now. I have been emotionally withdrawing from my H since he left this second time. Steve says I am sending him the wrong message - that I don't care and that I am moving on, when I really don't want either of these. It is is a reminder in my situation, of the time I withdrew emotionally during the EA which started my mess 2 years ago.<P>2) If after awhile, and especially AFTER the holidays I decide I don't want to keep doing PlanA, I move directly to PlanB. The advantage is that he will remeber all the nice stuff here as the last interaction with me before PlanB. I am basically avoidning him now. If I go to true PlanB, that is what he will remember - the emotional withdrawal as our last interaction. (D@mn, I can't win!)<P>3) Since he has read the book, tell my H I am telephone counsleing with Steve.<P>4) Ask my H to call Steve once. Steve wants to talk to him about ways to help me cope and to verify things are the way I perceive them - in other words, he wants to hear my H's side of the story.<P>5) Told me to call him (H's currently in Las Vegas at national meeting) and invite him over for dinner when he gets back. Bascially, do everything I was doing before when we were separated the first time. <P>Steve said I am acting too disinterested and H may be doing things based on thinking I am no longer interested in him or the marriage.<P>OK, so I called my H and talked briefly during his meeting break. He is supposed to call me tonight. This is only the second phone call I have placed to him in 8 weeks. He is probably wondering what the h@ll is going on with me.<P>I am going to invite him to dinner on Sunday night if it is not too late when his plane gets in. I am just going to be his FRIEND on the phone - ask about the meeting, the weather, the food, if he gambled, say shows, etc. I am going to tell him all about what I ave been doing and the kids. He doesn't know, because we have hardly been talking to each other.<P>If he comes to dinner Sunday or maybe Monday, I will tell him about Steve and ask him to call Steve. I guess since I am doing this, I will risk rejection yet ANOTHER time and ask him about Christmas with us. From Steve's point of view, I have no H and have nothing else to lose at this point.<P>Steve made some changes on my PlanB letter, too. I had e-mailed my draft to him. If anyone is going to send one, post and I will e-mail mine to you. I am holding it right now and deciding about a true PlanB after the first of the year.<P>That's the scoop. COMMENTS?????????<P>Roll Me Away<P><P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Wow. I do wish I could afford to talk with him. I like his advice, RMA. How do you feel about it?<P>You've been a lot like me, not contacting him and such. I gotta print this off and re-read it. <P>Lori

Hey Desiree,<P>I thought this was interesting:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Another problem is in doing PlanA or PlanB. Steve says there is NOTHING inbetween -no modifications or hybrid is acceptable. You are either in PlanA or in PlanB and will miss the objectives if you try anything else.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So many around here are doing a modified Plan-something. Hmmm...<P>It sounds good, but scary, if you ask me. <P>I have changed my mind about something else too... it doesn't matter if you are betrayed or betrayer, the one who's searching for help is the one who has to change. The other one isn't gonna change... <P>I just think it's interesting.<P>You sound positive, and that's super-duper good! <P>~Sheryl<P>

I wish I had the money to call Steve another reason I need a job. I wonder what he would say about my situation. I don't want to do plan B but I feel as if I have been forced into it . I guess the little love notes help but I am not sure. Like lostva I am going to print this and reread and think about it.<BR>You do sound better.E mail when you have time.<P>------------------<BR>di<P>

Sheryl,<P>Steve said they have been doing this with thousands of couples for over 20 years - if something else or some modification would possibly work - they would be promoting it! Makes sense to me.<P>Yes, wimp that I am - I am THRILLED to not have to go to true PlanB right be fore Christmas. <P>My currnet counselor has been guiding me to leave my H alone and withdraw from him because he may never come back and I am enabling him. I said Steve, this goes against what my current counselor is saying. Steve said true, your H may never come back. But, when and if you are ready to really do PlanB, that will take care of protecting you if your H never comes back. He will make no deposits and after a while you will automatically stop loving him because he will meet none of the conditions of why people fall in love as outlined inm y first post.<P>I guess I am also glad to have an excuse to call my H. God, I love that idiot so much! Steve asked me if my H still loved me. I told him what my H said to me "I still love you, but not as much as when we first married and I love the OW more." Isn't that ORIGINAL!!!!!!! <P>One more important thing: I was evidently NOT meeting my H's needs as good as I thought I was or he would not have become vulnerable and had the affair. Perhaps H and I did not really have the great arriage we thought we did! I have been thinking on that one alot.........<P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

RMA,<P>I'm in a similar situation as you. My wife and I are sparated. How does one Pla-A in these circumstances?<BR>Do I continue to talk to her and let her know I still want to be married?<BR>She is still active w/OB.<P>Whenever I do see or talk to her I do not lovebust. I haven't mentioned the affair for a week now. Trying to be her friend.<P>So many questions, I guess I need to talk to Steve myself.<P>Thank you for shareing you session with us.<P><BR>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

Desiree,<P>His advice sounds good to me. I'm a bit confused about this part, as far as what we can do about it:<P>"It begins by not understanding your own weaknesses and vulnerability. If you do not know what these are, then you don't know how to protect yourself and then you ARE vulnerable."<P>I totally agree with the above statement. When I asked my H why he didn't tell me he was so unhappy, he replied, "I didn't realize how unhappy I was." That really bothered me. Because if he can't tell me he's not happy, then I don't stand a chance of doing anything about it. So, how do WE get our spouses to understand their own weaknesses? Lord help us, if we should try to point them out to them!!

I agree with Sidney I am still at lost on what to do. I guess that why we each should call Steve, but you know that is not always possible. You know it is hard to meet their needs when they don't talk to you. I guess that is my fault for moving but it still FEELS RIGHT!. That is all I have to go on right now my feelings.<P>------------------<BR>di<P>

TO ALL,<P>H called and we talked almost 2 hours tonight~!!!! It was like old times - about what he's been doing and what I've been doing. One bad thing happened - while we were talking, he got a knock on his hotel door (he's in Vegas for business) and he received a gift - a bottle of Jack Daniels (his drink)....guess who from???? Not me. Other than that, we laughed and talked and it was EASY between us! At the end of the conversation, I INVITED him to dinner on Monday (he told me he doesn't come home until Monday, I thought it was on Sunday). He said over to the house or out to eat? I said whatever you would like. We can go out or I would be happy to cook a favorite meal for you - your choice. He said, No, he would like to take me out if we go. I said, does that mean you need to think about it? H said, I am just shocked that's all. I said why? He said he never expected me to call and want to go out with him. Then I asked if he was shocked I had called him earlier and he said Yes, he really was shocked about the whole thing. I asked him why he is so shocked, and he said, well, you haven't wanted to have anything to do with me lately. I said, well, we can talk about that on Monday when we go out. <P>I told him I missed talking to him everyday and I really enjoyed this conversation we had just had. He said he missed talking to me too. I said he could call me anytime, everyday, a couple times a week, once a week or once a month - just whenever he wanted to talk to me. He said OK. I said, goodbye and I love you and he said, I love you too, Desiree, and we hung up. <P>Dear God, Please keep me from getting too excited or reading too much into this. THY will be done, not mine!!!!!!!<P>Now, to individual posters:<P>Lori, <P>I feel so much better after talking to Steve this time. This is why: I LOVE my counsleor, Fred. But, he is guiding me one way and it doesn't necessarily mesh with the MB way. Obviously, I believe in the MB way. So, I have felt conflicted about what I was doing. I am also VERY confused as to myself - what I think, the choices I am making right now and how I am interpreting anything my H does or does not do. I was, as you know, MAJORLY stressed out over going to strict PlanB right before Christmas, here. <P>I am already stressed because I have no idea if H will share any of the holiday with us or not. So, I have been worried since last Monday that Steve would tell me to go ahead and send the letter. Knowing that my judgement regarding my own situation is all screwed up, I would have probably done it and been worrying the whole time whether it was right or not.<P>Based on H's reaction tonight, appears he has been hurt that I have been avoiding him. I just have not been able to figure out what works with him...... !<P>WilliamJ,<P>This conversation with my H tonight was like old times. We talked like friends and it was EASY between us - for bOTH of us. I can't tell you how long it has been since we have had a conversation like that. H's affair is almost 10 months old. Maybe friendship is the road back.....<P>You pLanA by just being her friend and being nice - pretend you are dating her and you wouldn't do any negative, controlling and bossy things to a girl you are dating. That is all you can do.<P>sidney,<P>You are correct. Your H, like my H, like me in my EA have weaknesses and sometimes you don't know about them until after the fact. But, since I have experienced the EA, I guarantee you I know what to look out for and how to listen to my own internal radar now. Your H may not have ever recognized himself and his weaknesses before, but if he would spend the time to reflect on this once it was over, he could understand himself better and see his failings. You, Diana and I are alike - our H's won't give us a chance to even TRY to make things better. It is so hard to see the couples who are together and struggling for happiness. At least they get to TRY......... <sigh><P>Diana,<P>You know, Steve might recommend you to do a little more to reach out to your H. You moved, told him all those things, and now he is in a position to have to come back to you crawling on his belly. I don't know, but somehow I wonder if Steve would tell you to do what I did today.<P>He talked to me almost 2 HOURS!!!!!! If nothing else, even if we never get back together, these are the interactions I want to have as final memories of him......his laugh, his sexy voice, his seriousness, his sexy voice, his breath and pauses when he was "shocked" by me, his sexy voice........ <P>OK, enough already! I shouldn't even think it, but I HOPE he calls me tomorrow! If not, maybe Sunday.........<P>I feel like a schoolgirl with a crush on the captain of the high school football team.....<P>Send in some lead weights to keep me grounded, please..........<P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Roll Me Away (edited December 11, 1999).]

Hey RMA,<P>Good deal! I am so happy to hear of your good news. It seems we both are having good responses with the "I would like to be your friend first" method. <P>BTW are you still leaving your notes on the counter? See Blutto is right!<BR><P>------------------<BR>"It's not over till we say it's over! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? H*ll no!" Blutto...Animal House 1984<P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Medic<P>

It sure does sound good. And so do you!!! Keep up the good work. Maybe this is the break you needed.<P>Hang in there!!<P>Lori

RMA,<BR>Great news! I'm so happy it turned out well for you.<P>Keep up the good work!!!!!<P>Bob<P>------------------<BR>"You can't always get what you want! But if you try real hard,you might just find, you get what you need!"<BR>Mick Jagger

Medic,<P>I DID NOT leave those notes on the counter on purpose, but I WOULD have if I thought I could have gotten a response!! <P>Actually, I am now calling this not PlanA, not PlanB, but PlanMedic! <P>One more way for us to go into business together, buddy....<P>Oh, do pray for me....I shouldn't be hopeful, but big, blubburing fool hearted woman that I am, of course I do have my hopes up.......<P>Lori,<P>I just e-mailed Diana that I seem to be either very up or very down and nothing much in between. So, if this goes well...up, up , up and if this doesn't....I'll be back to crying in perfectly good wine next week. I try to be reasonable, but don't have a reasonable bone in my body when it comes to this man.......<P>Thanks so much for the well-wishes. All I can do is try and be natural and nice and upbeat, which are all my "normal" personality....whatever "normal' is!<P>Bob,<P>My little joy here amid your cr@ppy circumstances! Wishing better things for you. As for me, it is way too early to tell if anything will come out of this. But, you do have to start somewhere. I have been so hurt that he wouldn't TRY....I do not understand all this and that, too just drives me crazy.<P>I am thinking of you and wishing better things for you, too, Bob. We are all such good people and all this suffering seems like such a waste to me....<P>Good night, friends,<P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

RMA, would you be willing to email me?<BR>tag_yerit@yahoo.com<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<P><BR>

RMA!!!<P> AWESOME!!!! My favorite part<BR>"He said OK. I said, goodbye and I love you and he said, I love you too, Desiree, and we hung up. <BR>Wow!!! That is a lOT better than "A Huh, most of us get when we tell them we love them!! PRAYERS!!!!! FRANK<BR>

Good Morning!<BR>Just got up and wanted to read some posts and came across yours Desiree. You spelled out things pretty clear in your first page. Like the others I need to print that first page and reread. <P>You sound alot like me. I am into about 6 mths of finding out about my H's EA. Counselor told me 2 days ago that I need to begin Plan B after the holidays. He feels through my conversations with counselor that H is still at it....???and I need to give him ultimatiums. 1. come to counseling with me or 2. ask him to leave. <P>WOW was I pretty upset after that session. I usually leave feeling strong and good. This counselor is a Godly man and yes I have to say that my gut feelings did agree with what he said. <P>My H has never left the home, we continue to try to work it out. BUTTTT, down deep I don't feel H is really (with me) on this recovery. Counselor said H has NO Respect for me, I guess from what I am telling the counselor, about my H.<P>I feel that I am slowly dieing inside. And if I continue with him as we are I will not truely care anymore about what he does. I feel love units going away fast. <P>I just wanted to share some of my goings on and hope that your dinner does go well and you and your H will recover.<P>Our God said he would make a way where there seems to be no way & All things are possible to them that believe. <P>I will pray for you and the many other hurting people on this forum.<P>Overcomer

Hi RMA....good for you and your counseling session with Steve! We used him several times, the money was well worth spending...he's THE MAN! <P>It is amazing how similar all situations are. My H moved out of the hous for 6 weeks, almost year ago...we are WELL into recovery, but I still remember the pain all too well. You are doing great, and would love to email you if you are interested. I wish I was on the board more, but the kids take up so much time. <P>Everyone here is awesome, and made such a difference in my life. Please write if you want, and I can share more thoughts on Steve etc....KKCinAL@aol.com<P>This is a long road, but well worth traveling, and regarding what your husband said abot "too much water under the bridge", I am sure he will see that experiences, whether good or bad, is what brings people closer. It worked for us. <P>XO,<BR>Sally<P>------------------<BR>You will be stronger because of this.<P>

Hi RMA -<P>Great thread!!! I'm also printing it!<P>I would like the Plan B letter copy if you would like to email to Sheba101@webtv.net<P>I could probable use a lot of it for my divorce letter!!!!<P>Happy that you had such a fulfilling conversation!!! Words of caution - lower your hopes and expectations!!!!<P>You don't know when, what will come of all this.....better to be pleasantly surprised than devastated by your own thoughts!!!!<P>Prayers for a wonderful rerouted trip!!<P>HUGS,<P>Sheba

Sorry I took so long to reply - I have had a busy day. I went to church tonight - I used to go regularly and since all this have been only twice, I think. I cried after communion, but I feel better that I went....<P>terri,<P>I will e-mail you in a couple of minutes, so be on the lookout.<P>Frank,<P>Yes, he contiues to say it if I say it first. if I don't say I love you, he doesn't either. Feel like I am playing a cat and mouse game. Keep the prayers coming for me. Thanks for all the smilies, too!<P>Overcomer,<P>You sound as conflicted as me. Isn't it awful???? I am normally very clear and decisive on what I want to do or how I feel about anything. Not dealing with this....NO! I am wimpy, undecided, fearful and untrusting of myself to do the right things. Gosh, if we can only find a clearing somewhere and start on a fresh path........ Thanks for the prayers and the post of encouragement!<P>Sally,<P>I will e-mail you right after I e-mail terri. i am interested in the Plan Steve mapped out for you! Thanks for writing!<P>Roll Me Away<BR> <P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Sheba,<P>Thanks for the encourgaement. You are right -I do not need to get my expectations too high. I will repeat that to myslef one hundred times an hour until Monday night!!<P>I will forward the Plan B letter in afew minutes....<P>Roll Me Away<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>