I don't know what rally it is. He mentioned it and then I remembered that 3 yrs ago we went down to New Braunsfels in May. We got too tired to drive all the way there, so we stopped in Austin. We woke up very early the next morning to many motorcycles. When we checked out they told us that it was a rally. My H's boss just bought a bike, too. He asked if we wanted to go next month. I don't see how we can, though. We have something planned every weekend. Mother's Day weekend my H is taking the motorcycle safety class that we have in TX. Do you all have that? It is 21 hrs. It was one of my prerequisites (sp?) to getting the bike, along with a disability policy (we already have life insurance).<P>I hope your H makes the right decision. I can't remember-has he read any of Harley's stuff? My H is reading it slowly. I don't blame you for making him sell the bike. I would, too. <P>How is work going? Are you getting back into the swing of things? Is the anti-depressants working any better? My sister had a complete hysterectomy last year and I think her hormones are still screwy. She's not much on medication or drs. She just left her H about 2 months ago. I think it's partially due to her hormones. I hope your dr is taking good care of you.<P>I better go. My typing is bothering my H-he is trying to sleep. Take care!<P>Love,<BR>Window

Window:<P>Yes, we do have a motorcycle safety program. I went though it as well as my two kids. It was a very good course for me since I had never ridden anything, (not even a skateboard), before. (except bicycles, as a kid). That is one prerequisite, you have to be able to ride a bicycle to take the course. I guess if you are not balanced enough on a bike a motorcycle is a definite no no.<P>As far as him selling his bike, I don't think he will. I did tell him he had to but then he saie "if I sell my bike and you dump me, I'll hate you". Not very nice words, granted.<P>I told him to do whatever he wanted, but he was to know that I would not get on it with him. At this time he's talking about spending more money changing the front end of it. As I said, he is never satisfied with anything. <P>He is a very bull headed person. Getting him to understand my point of view has been very difficult. Througout our marriage I would generally "give in". It wasn't worth the fighting, that attitude has changed as I mentioned way back he has had numerous EA with women. He thinks that as long as there is no sex involved it is perfectly all right. <P>That attitude and the living life like a single man will have to change before I feel secure in this relationship. The PA was bad enough but we had problems anyway. <P>Have a good day tomorrow, work is going good. I teach very young children and I have to say they are draining me now. Maybe by next year I will move up.<P>Love ya

The rally is in Austin the first weekend of June. I think it is called Rotto Rally? We are going with some other friends. I guess we are trailering the bikes. I am a little relieved about that. I think it will take a little time to work up to driving that far on the bike. Plus we don't have all of the equipment to make it comfy for me yet. I think that I am looking forward to it. I hope you can go, also, with your H. Maybe we could meet. That would be really cool. <P>I know how little kids can drain you! I am hoping it warms up today so my kids can run some energy off outside. It was cold yesterday.<P>I hope that all is well with you. How are you, Windancer? We haven't heard from you in a while. I pray that you are both doing well.<P>Love ya,<BR>Window<p>[This message has been edited by window (edited April 20, 2001).]

Window:<P>That sounds great. If my husband and I are together I will definitely see that we make that run. There is one this weekend and I guess I am waiting to see what he does. If he really wants this relationship to work he knows the choice he has to make. If not, well. he knows the outcome. <P>It would be fantastic if we could meet. <P>It's not been too good a day for me. I spoke with a close friend of ours and he told me that basically I have let my husband set the tone for our marriage and making him commit to change is going to very difficult. Basically, my husband wants the best of both worlds, freedom and the security of a home.<P>I can't live like that so I guess I am taking the sit back and see attitude. <P>Well, I have taken my sleeping pills and they are starting to kick in, can't seem to sleep anymore. I'll holler back at you tomorrow.<P>I too hope all is well with Windancer, it's been quite a while since she's posted.<P>Take care, hopefully the weather will let your little ones burn off their steam. We had to stay indoors yesterday and it makes such a LONG day. <P>Take care,<BR>Love ya

Hi, Girls!<BR>I am thrilled to see that the two of you may have a chance to meet! Wouldn't that be something? LOL! I hope you really do get the chance to meet and have some fun together.<P>It sounds as if the three of us are in some kind of holding pattern these days. I haven't posted in a while because frankly, I have been sitting back also and just quietly watching and waiting. My own state of mind needed a break away from the whole problem so I've been doing lots of things to distract myself such as shopping, going to my health club, visiting new areas of my city and things like that. What's funny is that my H notices some kind of change in me, as if I've stopped clinging to him. And, in a way, I have. I'm learning to make my own fun and my own way in the world and I think he senses that. Of course, with his job, he has been away all week long but he's been calling me regularly which is kind of new. In the past, he'd just take me for granted and hardly ever bother to call, which drove me up a wall. Now with my new attitude of "hey...I don't really care", he seems to be pulling closer to me once again.<P>You know what the really odd part is about all this? I truly do NOT care as much as I once did. Doing a lot of soul searching lately, I've come to the conclusion that I deserve better than all this. I'm tired of being second, or third or farther down on his list. Anger has been coming to the surface, too, for his never putting us first. It was always something else that came first with him: a friend, a hobby, his own needs and wants and oh, so much more. Over time, I 'accepted' that back seat but since all this began, I've come to realize that I hate being in the back seat! Many times I tried to tell him this, but my words fell on deaf ears. He thought I was whining and 'ungrateful' for all he was doing for me. Then it hit me: just how grateful was HE for all that I was doing, and giving up for him?? Apparently, he was not that grateful if he could even think of starting up a relationship with someone else! <P>I am almost 100% certain now that his A was an EA, but to me, that was too close for comfort. Just like you two, I feel betrayed, hurt and all those awful negative feelings that comes along with it. My spirit needs time to heal, and I am going to give myself that time. If and when I decide I want this marriage to continue, then I'll make up my mind. But right now, for the first time in my entire life with him, I am letting myself come first with me. Perhaps this is not a good thing and I am not suggesting that either of you do this, too, but I do know that for me right now, it just feels right.<P>Hope to hear more from both of you. Wishing you a great day as always....<BR>Much love,<BR>Winny

Winny, I am so glad you're back! I missed hearing from you. I think it is great that you are doing stuff for yourself. It is so important to take care of yourself. Isn't it funny how when we are needy, our H's step back, but when we are independent, they are all over us? I think they don't want to be responsible for our happiness. When they see us finding our own happiness they get scared. <P>K9, I hope that you and your H will work things out and you will have many more rallies to attend. I agree with your friend who said you have let him have his way too much over the years. Many of us are probably guilty of that. I always felt that if I held him back from things that he really wanted to do that he would resent me. Now I see that I have to participate in what he wants to do, not hold him back or let him go. <P>I agree, Winny, an EA hurts pretty badly. It is still very intimate, regardless if they actually had sex or not. I never imagined the pain of an A, so I cannot say how I would feel if I knew it was a PA. Would it hurt worse than this? I feel that it would. Although, this hurts like H***! <P>Well, you two, have a great day. I have errands to run. I have been having anxiety attacks when I have to leave the house lately. I am hoping that that won't happen today. Amazing what these things do to us.<P>Love ya,<BR>Window

[QUOTE]Originally posted by window:<BR>[B]Winny, I am so glad you're back! I missed hearing from you. I think it is great that you are doing stuff for yourself. It is so important to take care of yourself. Isn't it funny how when we are needy, our H's step back, but when we are independent, they are all over us? I think they don't want to be responsible for our happiness. When they see us finding our own happiness they get scared. <P>Hey, Window!<BR>I was very happy to see your post this evening! Yep, I tend to agree with you--our H's want to be a part of our lives yet they tend to shy away when we cling too much. You are so right that when we find our own happiness, they feel insecure. I guess it's just basic human nature, or at least some of it is! I agree also that a lot of us women do tend to give in to our H's wants and desires to too much of a degree and in doing that lose our own selves. <P>I have to interject something here and this will amaze you and K0! Believe it or not, my H and I used to be into biking!! We had to give it up when I got ill, and eventually my illness sunk us so badly financially that he had to sell our bike to pay some bills. I know he misses it terribly and so do I, but right now he doesn't have time for pleasure activities, anyway. I know the stress of his job is taking an awful toll on him physically and mentally and I really do wish he had the time to enjoy himself a little. It would be even better if we could enjoy ourselves together. However, we have to do what we have to do for now and hope that better days are ahead. This is what happens when a partner gets a chronic illness--the entire family structure suffers.<P>Oh, well...I'm rambling now! Please forgive me! K, I'd love to hear from you, too, and hope things are going a little better for you, too. Window, don't worry about those anxiety feelings when you leave your house for a while. It's my guess that it's still a part of the shock that you went through and your mind and body are going to need lots of time to calm down and come back to center. I'm praying for you both and your H's! <P>Love ya both!<BR>Winny

Winny:<P>You said it girl!!! Your attitude is EXACTLY what mine is. I have my boundaries, I know what I want, if he wants me he knows what he'll have to do. I am doing the same thing as you. He had gotten a membership to a local pub and I was his GUEST. Yesterday I went in myself and got my own. Heck, I may as well stop after work once in a while and have a drink.<P>I too am going and doing things with friends, and he too is reacting the same way as your husband. He was so used to his needs first, mine quite a ways behind. <P>Yes, the same thing has happened to my train of thought as yours. I am not living for him anylonger. His was a PA but I still have the same attitude. I am really looking deep into myself and seeing that I have a personality separate from his, I have interests and I can make my own fun as well. He was always soooo secure in my love for him. Quite frankly, I'll love as long as what I get in return suits me. I know that sounds bad but he has been pulling the shots for so long. I am beginning to have more of the personality he's always had. Comsee comsaw. I think that's how it's spelled.<P>I think he now realizes that he has to make the changes in order for it to work.<P>As I stated earlier, there is a rally in Texas this weekend, if he had gone I would have filed Monday. No if ands or buts. I have gone through the gammat of emotion, pain etc. I know what I want.<P>He did not go. He is talking about us going up early in the morning, This is fine with me. This is how it will be from now on. He WILL think of me or he won't have me around to think about at all. I have gotten stronger. I am healing, both physically and mentally. <P>Love, marriage, everything it represents means something totally different to me now.<P>Gotta go, septic tanks full, trucks here.<P>Love ya

Window:<P>In answer to your question about the difference between an EA and a PA. Last year my husband had an EA with an ex employee. It drove me absolutely crazy. He would not make any changes etc. There is a siginificant difference between the two though. In the EA I imagined and had the gut feeling there was more. In the PA I know. It doesn't make it less painful in any way but he has done the absolute worse thing he can do to me and I am not wondering . Knowing is something I can live with. <P>I don't know if that makes any sense at all to you. The pain of finding out about a PA cuts deeper than anything I have ever felt. But I am getting stronger through it. I am not with my husband because I have to be. I am here because I want to. <P>I have options. Before I felt I did not. I have the choice of staying or going. It makes a big difference in how I feel about things. I was so committed to Matrimony and everything it represented, that has changed. My happiness will be just as important as my marriage. If I can't have both I don't need it. I know this sounds selfish, but hey selfishness is what an A is all about. The needs and wants of the betrayer are the most selfish and self centered that can possibly exist.<P>Gotta go. Truck is pumping, he'll need cash in a minute. Take care.<P>Love ya

[QUOTE]Originally posted by k9love:<BR>[B]Window:<P>I have options. Before I felt I did not. I have the choice of staying or going. It makes a big difference in how I feel about things. I was so committed to Matrimony and everything it represented, that has changed. My happiness will be just as important as my marriage. If I can't have both I don't need it. I know this sounds selfish, but hey selfishness is what an A is all about. The needs and wants of the betrayer are the most selfish and self centered that can possibly exist.<P>Hiya, Girls!<BR>WOW! K, my feelings are exactly the same as yours! You expressed it so beautifully and honestly that I don't think anyone can misunderstand what you mean. It's not selfish to love yourself enough to protect yourself from harm, and you are soooo right: the betrayer IS the selfish one and the pain his/her selfishness inflicts is about the worst psychological pain that can be felt, short of losing a loved one to death. All three of us gals have "been there" and know how bitter and damaging that pain is and none of us ever wants to feel it again! <P>All psychologists tell us that is it crucial to love yourself first. If we become doormats to someone else and allow ourselves to be abused in any fashion, then we will not experience happiness. For our mates to do what they have done showed a total lack of caring and concern for us and our feelings and to me, that is something that will take an enormous amount of time to heal from. A wonderful priest that I know once told us a long time ago that it is enough (kind of like a first step towards forgiveness) to be willing to be willing to forgive. That's where I am at now: I am willing to be willing to allow feelings of forgiveness to grow. In time, I know that with this attitude, those feelings WILL grow because I've used this theory before in other circumstances and with other people. At least I do not feel like stomping out the door when I look at him now, and that's a start!<P>I love everything that you said, K, and think that you have a wonderful head on your shoulders. This alone is going to carry you through this awful time. It just hit me that what we are all talking about here is self respect. I respect myself enough to want the very best for myself in a relationship and if I can't have that, then I don't need the relationship. I think that's what our H's are seeing in us right now: our new sense of self respect being renewed. <P>Let's all three of us keep on keeping on the path we are going! Perhaps our H's will learn to respect us enough to be honest with us in all things and from that point, true intimacy with each other can grow and flourish.<P>God bless ya both! Love you lots...<BR>Winny

Hi!<P>My H is over showing his friend his new motorcycle. On the weekends I don't post much because I try to focus on him. Anyway, I have a few minutes now. <P>I wish I could feel like the two of you feel-that things will be more on your terms now. It may be that my children are little, so I have a different perspective. Or it may be that I have pretty bad self-esteem. I know my H dislikes how I handle the A. He feels like I am blaming myself. I don't know that I am. I just want our marriage to work and I am determined to make it happen. I respect that both of you are able to have a positive attitude for yourselves. <P>I just hate how easily I get depressed. He is in so much pain because of his back and that makes him in a not so great mood. I take these moods very personally. I don't know how to seperate myself. We went to a baseball game last night and I was so excited. He didn't seem to have that much fun. A few times I thought we might have to take him to the hospital because he was in so much pain. So logically I can seperate myself from his mood, but emotionally it devastates me when he acts like that. Then I start thinking about the A. His moods seem to be my trigger. <P>I wanted to say hi because I haven't written in a few days. I guess I am not really up to it right now, though. I hope you are both having a good weekend. K, did you go to TX w/your H? <P>Love,<BR>Window

Window:<P>I am sorry things are still geting to you. I know that when a spouse is hurting it causes you both to feel the pain. Emotionally as well as physically.<P>I have to make a point about something in your response. It IS NOT anything you did that CAUSED your husband to do what he did. If he feels you are blaming yourself chances are he is right. I know you've done a lot of reading and I know you've heard it said, you are NOT the reason for what a wandering spouse does.<P>This may be the reason you are having difficulty thinking of yourself first. <P>It sounds as if you are putting all of you into this relationship without giving yourself something. I may be wrong, but I know from experience that doing that will lower your self esteem. Are you trying to be the perfect wife so there would be no way he could possibly want another? If that's the case sweetie I can tell you it will backfire. <P>I know because I did this. I went above and beyond to make life better for my H. What did I get in return? He still found someone else. And she was NOWHERE near the calliber of a person that I am. She would never have been able to do what I did in this marriage. I gave Too much. I gave all of me. <P>I was thinking the other night about things in our relationship that were not right. I came to the conclusion that I didn't like myself before. I really was not comfortable with the way I looked, who I was or what I wanted. These feelings are changing. I am starting to look at myself with the attitude Hey, I've got a lot to offer. My husband feels this coming off of me. <P>This is the man who said he couldn't commit to change because you could not change a personality. Well, he<BR>will change or I won't be there to worry about it.<P>He did not go to the rally, when I got in he tried to give me the old "You know I didn't go because of you" speech. I told him no, You didn't go because you knew it was best for you. He asked me what I would have done if he'd gone without me. I said I would have taken care of things first thing Monday. He didn't say anything else. I think he finally realizes, business as usual is no more. I am not threatening, I am simply setting boundaries. This is very important in any relationship.<P>I never set boundaries before. I was always passive, the sweet little wife. Poo, that gets you nowhere. If you have a problem with your spouses actions, tell them. <P>I hope things get better for you, and yes, I have to agree with what you are saying about your children. I don't know how I would have reacted if this had happened when mine were small. Now, mine are old enough to go with the flow. You are in a different situation than me in that sense and it may be why things are different as far as your outlook. I am financially and emotionally stable enough with children nearly raised, my decision to stay or go will not be hampered by these things. I understand how your life now is different and your priorities have to be different. I wish you the best. <P>

Winny:<P>Yep, you said it. It's amazing how this A has changed me. At first, it devastated me, I know I'll always have that feeling deep inside, but what is coming to surface is a stronger, new and improved me.<P>I spoke with my mother today, my dad passed away five years ago and she has been living by herself. She was very depressed and was curious about whether my H and I had our problem worked out or were still living apart.<P>I never did tell her what he did. As I said my H had problems that were obvious to others, growing up for one thing, she just assumed this was the reason we separated. I won't tell her anything different. She would hate him forever. <P>I love my mother but honestly, she cannot live anywhere near me. It's funny but both her and my husband have a lot the same personality. They are both so good at manipulating me. If my H and I aren't able to work things out I know she is thinking we could move in together. WRONG, god that would be awful, she is so controlling, and she does it in such a subtle way. He is the same. Ironic that I married someone just like her. Incidently, they don't like each other now, could you imagine how bad it would be if she knew the truth? <P>She's been digging at me trying to get more, but I will never tell her the truth. She would not use it to help me, she would use it to her benefit, not for me.<P>Well. I better get off before I get kicked off. <P>Hope you have a great day.<P>Love ya

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by k9love:<BR><B>Window:<P>It sounds as if you are putting all of you into this relationship without giving yourself something. I may be wrong, but I know from experience that doing that will lower your self esteem. Are you trying to be the perfect wife so there would be no way he could possibly want another? If that's the case sweetie I can tell you it will backfire. <P>I know because I did this. I went above and beyond to make life better for my H. What did I get in return? He still found someone else. And she was NOWHERE near the calliber of a person that I am. She would never have been able to do what I did in this marriage. I gave Too much. I gave all of me. <P>I was thinking the other night about things in our relationship that were not right. I came to the conclusion that I didn't like myself before. I really was not comfortable with the way I looked, who I was or what I wanted. These feelings are changing. I am starting to look at myself with the attitude Hey, I've got a lot to offer. My husband feels this coming off of me. <P>This is the man who said he couldn't commit to change because you could not change a personality. Well, he<BR>will change or I won't be there to worry about it.<P>>> I am not threatening, I am simply setting boundaries. This is very important in any relationship.<BR>I never set boundaries before. I was always passive, the sweet little wife. Poo, that gets you nowhere. If you have a problem with your spouses actions, tell them. >> <P> </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dear K and Window,<BR>K, I swear: either we are related, or you and I are soul sisters. OMG..when I read all of what you wrote, I couldn't help but think, "This is ME, too!" Window, Please..listen to K. She is dead-on right in everything she says! I, too, was the "perfect" wife and I got to the point where I didn't even recognize myself anymore! I mean it...everything I did, I did for him, because of him or what have you. The one thing I did not do was to be honest with him, and I mean really honest. I never once said, "Honey..it really bothers me when you go away each month to your seminars and leave me home." Instead, I bit the bullet and was the brave soldier. Inside, I died a little more each time. And K is right!! What did it all get me?? He grew apart from me, anyway, and as far as I can tell had at least an EA.<P>As for seeming to be more "together" than you seem to be right now, Window, that's not exactly true. I, too, get very anxious when he is away from me, which is very often. Also, my H tends to get very quiet when he is in pain and he is in a lot of pain lately from his spine (he had surgery on his spine just last year). When he gets that way, I can't HELP but think, "is he thinking about us? about HER? about who??" It's just natural to have someone in a not so good mood drag you down, too, and that is a trigger. I just keep on telling myself that it's only his pain, but in the end, I still can't completely stop those negative thoughts from forming in my head. I guess this is going to take a LOT of time.<P>And, I agree w/K about the kids. Had this happened to me when our kids were small, I don't know what I would have done! It certainly does change the whole scope of things when young children are involved. I mean, right now, all I have to worry about is myself. If our marriage ends, I go my way and he goes his and that's that. But, when you have little kids in the picture, that is a whole other scenario. Just hang on, hon, and know that at least your H seems to be trying. With mine, I have no real clue as to how he really feels right now. He could be playing a waiting game, or he could be genuinely trying to make our marriage work. Whatever is going on in his mind will come to light sooner or later. I just hope I'm up to the challenge if it's not the answer I want to hear!<P>OK...'nuff said from me for one day! Hope you both have a good evening and a good week ahead.<BR>Love ya both,<BR>winny<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Windancer (edited April 22, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by k9love:<BR>[B]Winny:<P>>>I love my mother but honestly, she cannot live anywhere near me. It's funny but both her and my husband have a lot the same personality. They are both so good at manipulating me. If my H and I aren't able to work things out I know she is thinking we could move in together. WRONG, god that would be awful, she is so controlling, and she does it in such a subtle way. He is the same. Ironic that I married someone just like her. Incidently, they don't like each other now, could you imagine how bad it would be if she knew the truth? >> <P>Dear K,<BR>Sweetie, I salute you and want to tell you to stick to your guns! One of the biggest mistakes of all that my H and I made was to take my mother in to live with us. I love her, too, just like you love your mom, but mine is also very controlling and ironically, very much like my H, too! <P>Again, my H who is the sort who loves to help others (this is a whole other topic that I'll go into in more depth some day, but trust me...it's not as good as it sounds!)for his own psychological reasons, and it was his idea that we take her in. I knew from jump street that this was going to be a huge mistake and I was right. She is elderly and is starting to show signs of mental failing now. It was awful before this happened, and I can only imagine just how much worse things are going to get. She is demanding, whiney and is miserable unless she is the center of attention. NOW, he is uncomfortable with her living with us, and I could have told him that two years ago, but he would not have listened to me. <P>Mom is very well off and could easily live in an assisted living arrangement, but as it is, she has me to wait on her hand and foot and I am getting very, very tired. I would feel like a total heel now if I were to tell her she had to leave. That is just not possible. However, her being with us added a tremendous strain on our marriage, and I would recommend to others that, if at all possible, they help their aged parent find some type of assisted living setting. Taking them into one's own home should be the last resort, unless you have extra live-in help and a HUGE house, or a duplex type house. The responsibility for elder care is enormous and you just don't realize it until you are into it. Privacy is the first thing to go and it is a very precious commodity, let me tell you! It does not do a marriage any good to lose privacy, and things can get very, very tense. <P>Whew! Sorry for getting up on the old soap box, but this is a topic that hits very close to home with me. Just think things out very carefully, K, and remember my words. If you don't think it's a good idea to take your mom in with you, DON'T do it. You will only live to regret it, of that I am sure. I still love my mom and am trying my heart out for her, but between this situation and my marriage problems, I am usually wrung out at the end of each and every day. <P>I hope neither of you think I am horrible for what I've said here, but I am just being honest. I would hate to see either of you in the same boat as me and right now, we all have enough to concentrate on with our H's.<P>Luv ya,<BR>Winny

Winny:<P>My gosh, I can't believe how similar we feel about things. My mother too gets p"OD if she's not the center of attention. My god, when she visits she gets irritated if I have to do something for my family. She gets up and goes to her room to read. If I dare have friends over same story. She is really basically a nice person, but if she feels someone else is getting the limelight, heavens. <P>She came to visit us after dad died, she stayed three weeks. I had to run over to a friend's house and drop some hay off for their horse. My mother was going to go with me. At the last minute my son decided to jump in and go with us. She would not go. Instead she went back into the house. Later, when I got back my husband asked what in the world was going on, that after I had left she was downstairs slamming cabinet doors, furious. She got mad because it wasn't her and I going. She is awful.<P>My brother and his wife and kids took her on vacation last month. When I talked to her she said I needed to go there also, but to leave my kids home and just go with a group of women. They went to Disneyland, why in God's name would I want to leave my kids home. Ugh, I cannot live anywhere near her.<P>Sometimes I wonder if my reluctance to leave for a while is because I am afraid she will put me in a spot to live with her. I would NEVER be able to have a life for myself if I did. As it is I can't visit friends I had years ago when I go to see her, I tried this last time. I told her that one of my close friends from junior high had contacted me and said to get in touch with her when I got to town. My mother said, "Well, you're not planning on going to see her are you?" Naturally, I didn't, why? because I have never stood up to her.<P>So you too have a husband who wants to help others? Mine too, ironic isn't it, you want to know who gets the least amount of help from him? Yep, ME. I appreciate his outwardly kindness, but charity begins at home.<P>By the way, how old are your kids? <P>Well, gotta go, talk to you later.<P>love ya

Girls: I've got a question. My life is so full of problems. Remember when I told you my H had gone out of town for his STD testing? He stayed with a female friend who I had no idea about, she knew everything about his A and the problems within my marriage. <P>Well, I got the last phone bill in and a month ago I had gone to the city where she lives to talk to her. I spoke with my H about midnight that night, letting him know where I was and what my plans were. The bill shows that after he and I spoke about 2 A.M. he tried calling her. He says it was to tell her to expect me. I asked him whose side he was on anyway, why was he prewarning her? If they were just friends why did he have to let her know to possibly expect me?<P>I was talking to my H a few minutes ago and told him if this woman ever sets foot in our place of business or within 100 feet of me I was going to do great bodily harm to her. Now you have to understand this is not my personality, I detest hurting anything, unless you are a cockroach, then I have no problem squishing you. But anyway, my husband was quite concerned asking me why, what happenned? <P> Everything that had already happened, her telling me that I had to accept responsibility for his A, her telling him that she'd rather be cheat on than beat. Her telling me that it was OK for him to have female friends. All of it. I guess all my anger and resentment is going toward her right now.<P>I asked him when the last time he'd heard from her, well seems like it was two days ago. She called while coming into town to see her kids. He was at least honest with me, I have no way of knowing who calls him on his Cell, it does not list that number. <P> I think the man needs a lobotamy. He still contends that they have never had anything intimate, therefore their friendship is OK. Horsepoop! <P>I wonder if this man is ever going to get a clue?<P>Comments?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by k9love:<BR>>>Everything that had already happened, her telling me that I had to accept responsibility for his A, her telling him that she'd rather be cheat on than beat. Her telling me that it was OK for him to have female friends. All of it. I guess all my anger and resentment is going toward her right now.>><P>>>I asked him when the last time he'd heard from her, well seems like it was two days ago. She called while coming into town to see her kids. He was at least honest with me, I have no way of knowing who calls him on his Cell, it does not list that number. >><P>HI, K..<BR>Sorry, but after what happened with my situation, I do not believe that it's OK for a man to have female "friends." Likewise, I feel women should not have male friends. Now..let's define some terms here: by friends, I mean those people in our lives on whom we rely and depend for comfort, understanding, help, a feeling of belonging, loyalty, honesty, a sense of commitment, and yes, even love. What I've just described is a relationship. This is far different from "acquaintances", people we know and are kindly to but whom we do not have a relationship with. A relationship is a two way street, give and take on both sides. It takes work and commitment (is this perhaps why he called her to warn her of your coming to see her?)and by nature, we wish to protect and defend our friends. It takes years to form and become a solid, real thing whereas an acquaintace can move away and you wouldn't even notice or care.<P>If you look closely, the definition for friends is the same as for a mate! Only, add into it the sexual attraction and eventual bonding that happens and it becomes a whole other animal. So, you can see where the potential for a real problem exists when sexual attraction may be present. In fact, sexual attraction is what usually starts a male-female friendship and that is how most of us wound up with our mates to begin with. No, I definitely do not feel that a married man or a married woman has any place with a close friend (as per my description)of the opposite sex. Isn't that what a spouse is supposed to be for, by the way? The love, mutual respect, support and comfort that happens should be between the married couple, NOT an outsider and one half of the married couple! In the Lord's prayer, it says, "lead me not into temptation", so why on earth would someone even want to build a close "friendship" with a person of the opposite sex when he or she is already married?? It just doesn't make sense!<P>K, your situation is so similar to mine that I could cry! Just like you, I don't know who my H calls (has own cell phone from work), he's out all hours and goes all over the place for his job. For all I know, he could have a second home base someplace, and I'd be totally ignorant of it. I only know this: when his 'female friend' was in the picture last year, I was not around but back home, waiting to heal from my surgery so that I could move to our new home and start our life together in our new city. Oh, sure...she was very solicitious, I'm sure, and her motives were very "pure". Yeah...right. Except, my H seemed to know an awful lot about HER miserable marriage and problems, which told me they had had more than just ONE conversation on the phone, as he had told me. The truth is that an interloper--the OW--saw her chance at a little diversion, or some fun or ego-boosting with my H, and even maybe a potential escape from her so-called bad marriage (ironic, isn't it?? she and her H are still together and I hear they stick together like glue!)and she struck. Just like a snake, a pit viper. Thinking of no one but herself and her wants/needs, she tried to move in on my H and he came this close to having a full, all-out A with her.<P>All I know now is that I want him NOWHERE near her...no way, not ever and not ever again. In fact, I think this is even advised on this website in the steps for getting past the affair. I would seriously ask your husband why he feels the need to develop these friendships when he has YOU as his so-called main and best friend. Does he have any male friends? If so, can't he go to them for moral support? I know that my H sure does--in fact, he talks more than any other man I've ever known! <P>Sorry, hon--but this situation would make me feel VERY uneasy, too. You are very right in questioning things--keep on and don't let him give you quick, easy or pat answers. You need to get at the root of why he does what he does.<P>I gotta go now. Mom is up for breakfast (sigh!), so I'll check back here later. Hope I've helped and not harmed in any way!<BR>Luv ya,<BR>Winny<P><BR>

K,<BR>Is this the woman who's couch your H spent the night on after you found out? I think I am right about that??? I agree with you and Winny - they should not be talking at all! She sounds like a real piece of work! I like Winny's definition of friendship. My H agreed that he should not have female friends after this fiasco. He realized the danger that it posed. I wish your H could see that. <P>I remember when I was younger I thought that I should be able to have all of my guy friends and my spouse should just accept that. How stupid, I think now. That is not realistic. If it causes your spouse any discomfort than it is not appropriate. Well, I guess it should go farther than that. I wasn't uncomfortable w/my H's relationship with the OW because I wasn't really aware of it. Pretty much our guidelines now are that no woman is to call or be called by him for a chat. If it is directly related to work, okay because that is his job. And it should only be his employees, not anyone from another dept. That's it, though. <P>Winny and K,<BR>Your moms sound like my MIL. My mom is fantastic! What is it with our H's, though? My H invited my mom to move in with us last year. I knew it was a bad idea. I told him she would drive me crazy. Yes, I said she is fantastic, but she is very needy. She was supposed to live with us for a month or 2 while her boyfriend found a place for them to live. After she moved in, he broke up with her. She ended up living with us for about 6 months. That is when I first went on my anti-depressants. My dr said he was sure it was from my mom living with us. I would yell at my oldest son or my H because if I said anything negative to my mom she would start crying. She can send me on a guilt trip faster than you can wink your eye! <P>She now lives about 15 minutes from us and she helps us all of the time. She still gets on my nerves, but everyone is jealous of what she does for me. She babysits all of the time, helps me with chores occassionally, etc. She is very sweet. She is a compulsive liar, though. You never know when she is telling the truth. She is not a good liar, either. I have 3 sisters and she will tell all of us a different story and I guess she thinks we don't talk. The boyfriend who broke up with her - they lived together for 8 years. She told all of us that they were married. I figured it out and told my sisters after a year or two. It took her a while to admit it to me after he broke up with her. I kept asking her who was going to file for divorce. She would always avoid that conversation. When she finally admitted it to me, I told her that I knew for a long time that she was lying to me. <P>You are too sweet, Winny. At least my mom likes her independence. With all of your illnesses, wouldn't it be reasonable to tell your mom that she would be better off at an assisted living place near you? I see my mom 4-5x/wk, but it is so much better than her living here. I feel for you, Winny. <P>K, you could just tell your mom that you need time and space to heal from your divorce (if it comes to that). Don't move in with her! It will drive you over the edge! Believe Winny and me. She is a better person than me for dealing with it for 2 years. 6 months nearly killed me.<P>Okay, both of you. You pretty much hit the nail on the head with me. I am putting my H first. I have very low self-esteem. I guess I feel that if I lost this stupid weight, I would have more self-confidence. I know that my face is attractive, but I feel that my body is grotesgue. I have figured out that I am an emotional eater. How do I solve that? I don't know. As I have told you, counseling is out of the question. <P>I could teach if we seperated, but I don't want to leave my kids. That is not really it, though. I think for a long time part of me thought that I couldn't survive w/out my H partly because of financial situations. Now that I have had time to see things in a different perspective, I know that I couldn't survive w/out my H because I love him so much. I have always known that I love him deeply, but now I know it goes much deeper. I always thought that we were meant to be together. That it was God's plan (that is a whole other story). I don't know if I told you how I feel that God really worked in our relationship with this A. That is also another story. <P>This is really such rambling. It is hard to put my feelings into words. I have set boundaries now. I tell him how I feel, but I can't bear the thought of life w/out him. My children deserve to have their parents together. I deserve a faithful, devoted husband. We are working on things. <P>Anyway, I better check on my youngin's! Who knows what kind of havoc they are creating! Take care, both of you!<P>Love,<BR>Window<P>

Greetings Girls:<P>Yes, this is the same one he stayed with the night. You are both right. This is how I feel. Yet, in my husbands infinite way of dealin with issues he sees it in a completely different light.<P>His reply, He is doing everything he can to live up to the expectations I have of him. He is not calling her, she is the one doing the calling. He feels he is not leading her on etc. He will not tell her not to call, so that is not an option.<P>He was more upset over the fact that I was going to do bodily injury than anything. He kept saying I was being immature and acting like a baby. He says I have no reason to feel this way about her, she's done nothing wrong, All she's ever done is be his friend.<P>Sometimes I just want to barf. We must have yelled and screamed for an hour over this. I didn't start with the yelling, he did.<P>In fact he said if I was going to act that way the next time he saw me talking to a guy with no one else around he was going to beat the *** out of him. I told him this was not the same thing, Oh yes it is says the wise one.<P>He says he is making changes, he says he has the choice of being him or changing to meet my criteria. That sounds real good doesn't it. Sounds like the "HIM" needs to be a single carefree man. I just don't understand him. I don't think he is normal. I really don't.<P>This friendship mode with other women has been going on since we first married. I never liked it but then he never stepped outside boundaries, or so I think. As far as the one he had an A with she was not a "friend" she was a one night stand that didn't go away.<P>Over the years he's had 8 or 9 of these types of friendships, I am afraid that this will be the straw that breaks the camel's back. I don't think I can handle them anymore. <P>He has such a way of turning things around to justify his actions. It makes me ill. <P>He did say if there was a rally and it was when I couldn't go that he would not promise me he would not. I replied with "Find, if you have to go away, overnight to a rally without me then don't expect me to stay home because I won't", he said that was fine. <P>But it's not fine with me. Maybe he doesn't think I'll do it and he's trying to see how far he can push me. I just don't know. I do know for SURE! If he goes, I am gone also. <P>He had the nerve to tell me that for years he's been telling me to go do things with friends out of town etc. that way he would not feel guilty when he went.<P>I had to point out the fact that the children were younger and it was a tad bit difficult to do that. Also, someone had to stay home because of our business. I do not live near family and babysitting was always a problem for us.<P>Now, if he wants to play the game I guess I'll go along. It's not what I want, but I won't back down. Maybe, once he feels what I have to feel he'll have a different perspective. I don't know, maybe I am just chasing my tail. Maybe this is not meant to work. I am ssooo confused. <P>I will continue to have the "My needs will be met" attitude though, if not by him, well so be it.