HI K and Window!<BR>Window, hope you are having a good day, hon, and K...you sound so very down. My heart is with you both. I wish all of this never happened to any of us, but it did...so here's something I wrote this morning in answer to K's heart-breaking letter:<P>Dear K,<BR>Wow...you hit the nail right on the head. "Justification" is what it's all about, K. I know, because I'm going through the very same kind of nonsense with my own H. When someone is doing something they know is not right, they will try to come up with any excuse in the book to validate their behavior, including making things up. I looked up the word 'justify' in the dictionary and some of the synonyms are: validate, rationalize, defend, excuse, give reason for. Then, just for fun, I looked up 'rationalize' (as my H seems to do this a lot) and was surprised to see the definition: it means to lessen, to diminish, to trim down, to decrease. Honestly, I never would have guessed those were the same as rationalize! But, when you think about it, this is just what our men are doing: they are trying to make their actions seem less than what they truly are and are giving us all kinds of reasons and/or excuses for their feelings and behavior.<P>In other words, it's like they are saying to us "Look..what I am doing is not bad at all, and in fact, I'm being quite noble. I am perfectly justified in having my own friends, whether you approve or not, and I will continue to interact with my friends. If my friends need me, then I am going to see to their needs and for you to say 'no' is very selfish on your part. Having outside interests makes me happy and if you really loved me, you'd want to see that I was happy. This means, don't tell me what I can or cannot do because if you do, then you will make me very unhappy." At least, this is how I perceive what's going on in my own marriage with my H. He tries to lessen or decrease the wrongness of his current beliefs because he KNOWS they are wrong (rationalization). His belief that he is only being noble is a validation in his mind that he is doing the right thing. Believe it or not, this cockeyed thinking works for him. <P>Of course, there is one thing he didn't think about. What if it were I who first stepped outside the marriage vows? How would he have felt, then? I can just see him returning from a hard day at work, expecting comfort, peace, and understanding from the woman he made a life-long commitment to only to find her ready to zip out the door to go be with someone else! And, what if I told him that my friend was a man who just needed my help, and his feelings and needs had to come before my H's? I can just see his reaction!! NO Way, Jose! It just wouldn't work! That's the really odd part about justification: when the shoe is on the other foot, then all of the great reasons and excuses just seem to evaporate. That is one good way to identify if something is a justification or not. <P>Another variation on this is the turnaround. First, the excuse or 'good reason' is given. ("Gee. I didn't contact her, she initiated the contact, therefore, it doesn't count as a contact. I was only attending to a friend's need, so I did nothing wrong.") Sure. Sounds noble, doesn't it? But, what if the shoe were on the other foot? For instance, for years, my H had to know my every whereabouts. I mean, that man paid such attention to detail that it almost made me uncomfortable. I found myself explaining my every movement to him, just so he wouldn't ask later on. (dumb, huh?) Now, however, it's a different story. Today he says, "Go be with your friends...go do things. I wouldn't mind." Uh huh. Right. This is one classic way of saying "Hey...if it's OK for YOU to come and go, then it must be OK for me to come and go, too." Talk about the classic turnaround! In fact, he doesn't check up on me at all these days, which to me is a huge clue. It's almost laughable, if it weren't so tragic! When someone is doing something wrong, they do not realize how transparent their behavior really is to everyone else. <P>I think what our men have to do is to make a choice: they either want to remain married or they don't. It's as simple as that. My own H has already told me months ago that he just didn't want to be married anymore. Then, when I said "Ok..fine...let's throw our marriage out the window," he backed down. Why? Because of fear of the unknown, that's why. It's a huge step to end a marriage and a costly one, too. At least with us, our men know what they have and that brings a kind of comfort to their lives. Right now, I look at myself as a big thorn in his side--someone or something he has to put up with, but down deep he wishes weren't really there. He just doesn't have the guts to pull out the thorn because then he'd have to deal with the wound. <P>OK...I'm rambling now, hon. Just know that you and your feelings and thoughts are right on--and that you will get through this terrible time, with or without him. I can tell you are very, very down and my heart is with you. Just be strong, ok?<BR>Luv ya,<BR>Winny<P>

Winny:<P>Bullseye sweety!! God you are good, I know now that I am not crazy. Why, because there is another human being out there who feels and sees the same things I do. Isn't it ironic? My husband has a way of making me feel, and I hate using the word crazy, but like we are not on the same planet. You are so right when you talk about rationalizing, you hit it on the nail, that is exactly what my husband does. <P>I know how I feel, I know what things mean to me, but after listening to him "rationalize for a while" I begin to doubt myself. Big problem for sure, one good thing is I am now aware of it.<P>When you talk about putting the shoe on the other foot you could not have put it any better. My husband wants to compare apples to pineapples, it doesn't work, there is no comparison. How do you make someone understand this? Is this part of their personality that cannot be changed? My H is so sure of his convictions. When he says he is doing nothing wrong, by god he means it. <P>It does not matter that I try to point out the fine points or try to make him understand it from my point of view. This does not work because I have never done to him what he has done to me. This may be what needs to happen in my marriage, a taste of his own medicine maybe?<P>I don't know, he'd probably rationalize it to suit himself as usual and I would be back to point A. I am not one for playing games, not my style, but I will do what it takes. I am not saying I would have an A. My opinion is I am going to have to have love for anything like that to happen and quite frankly I'm not in the market.<P>Get this, when I say all right you think it's okay to have female friends, well maybe I will start mingling and have male friends myself, he says you do that and I'll really not worry about who I am friends with. Sheesh, he's already doing it, it I say I'm going to he wants to intensify what he's already doing.<P>In all reality I am not doing as bad as I may sound. I am starting to see the light through clouds. Good or bad, I am making it through each day and I am trying to be happy for myself.<P>I did go back to exercise and I started tanning again, Time to feel good about me for me. It will help I know. For now I am taking the one day at a time attitude.<P>I feel like you do as far as a thorn, they'd have to deal with the pain if it were pulled out. A divorce would devastate my husband, you note I didn't see me. I have a profession, I have a substantial savings, I WILL survive. He will be the one who looses, he has no direction in life, it would be no time at all and he'd have nothing to show for all the years we've invested.<P>Hard words, yes, but true, I have always been the stable factor in this relationship, I was always the one who carried the load when his "ideas" backfired. <P>I know I am strong, I know I can go on. I prefer to spend my life with the man I truly love but if his love hurts more than it gives and protects I will have to let it go.<P>I hope you have a good day. Window, I hope all is well with you also.<P>Love ya

K wrote:<P>>>>Get this, when I say all right you think it's okay to have female friends, well maybe I will start mingling and have male friends myself, he says you do that and I'll really not worry about who I am friends with. Sheesh, he's already doing it, it I say I'm going to he wants to intensify what he's already doing.<P><BR>Way to go, K!<BR>You made ME feel better by your letter! I, too, thought that maybe something was wrong with my thinking but down deep inside, I knew better. I would like to share something with you that I went through several years ago and would like to know what your opinion is afterwards:<P>I had four kids in four years with my ex. This meant they were all teenagers together and it was a very rough time for all of us. One of my girls had the bad luck to get involved with drugs and it nearly destroyed her life as well as mine. One of the things that used to happen was that she would look me right in the eye and lie to me, and never once blink! I joined a support group for parents of kids in trouble and I learned that yes, indeed, this was a hallmark of drug abuse in kids. They lie, cheat, steal and do all kinds of things that they would never do had they never taken drugs. This is so they can continue to do what they got hooked into doing, and by God, no one was going to get in their way! The power, allure, and need of the drugs was so great that given the chance, they would sell their very soul to get them, if they had to. You could talk with them until the cows came home about ruining their lives and all that, and it wouldn't make a dent. It came down to this: it was up to each individual drug abuser to make their own choice. They had to WANT to get clean, and no one could make this decision for them.<P>K and Window, I see this same need and allure going on with a cheating spouse. The attraction of feeling whatever it is they are feeling about themselves is so strong that it becomes very easy to lie and rationalize. No matter what it takes, they want that "feel good" feeling to continue and it is only when they decide to stop that they will stop. I agree, K, that we wives are "ok"--we are not nuts, or crazy, but innocent bystanders caught up in this terrible web of deceit and pain. The real tragedy is that when a spouse cheats and continues to cheat, he or she is really destroying much more than their own life! They hurt and destroy a marriage, and could easily do the same to all those involved with the marriage (spouses, kids, other close relatives and even sometimes, friendships!). <P>As for your idea of perhaps finding someone of your own to comfort you (do ya like that choice of words?!), my advice is don't do it. I thought about that, too, and realized that it would only intensify my H's actions (the 'good for you, good for me' routine), AND, legally speaking would really muck things up for me. Should we get to the divorce stage, it would really hurt my position. In my state, at least, the law goes very harshly against the cheating party and he or she could lose a LOT in a divorce court! This is something we should never lose sight of, K and Window. The idea here is to protect ourselves no matter what, as well as rebuild our self esteem and learn to go on, no matter what sacrifices we have to make temporarily.<P><BR>K also wrote:<P>>>>In all reality I am not doing as bad as I may sound. I am starting to see the light through clouds. Good or bad, I am making it through each day and I am trying to be happy for myself. I did go back to exercise and I started tanning again, Time to feel good about me for me. It will help I know. >>><P><BR>K, good for you! I am doing the very same thing and feel just like you do. Believe me, taking care of myself now is working wonders for my attitude. Physically I feel better and emotionally I am healing, too. Although I still have bouts of really negative and hurt feelings, I seem to come out of them a lot quicker. I am accepting none of the blame for what my H did because he ALWAYS had the chance to come to me, and to talk and to be honest with me. Instead, he chose to cross a very dangerous and dark line and in so doing entered into a relationship built on deceit and pure selfishness. Ya know what the really funny part is in all of this? I, too, had that opportunity to do the very same thing a few years back, but I was wise enough to say "no", and stood on my word to my husband. I didn't even allow what could have been an EA to start, and turned away the man who had high hopes of starting one. Do I regret that now? NO! More than ever, I am glad that I didn't cross that line. It showed strength and moral character on my part and even though pride is a sin, I am proud of the choice I made. At least I can look my H dead in the eye and say, "Hey..I never did this to you, and to me, that makes me the better person." Now, can our H's say that about the OW they interacted with? Where was their loyalty and sense of moral character (the OW's, I mean), as well as their own?? <P>OK...have a great day, now, K! You, Window and I are doing fine and we will continue to do fine. With each passing day, we are getting stronger and that can only lead to eventual happiness, with or without our spouses. God bless us all and hope to hear back from you both real soon!<P>Luv ya,<BR>Winny<P>PS...<BR>Hey, Window! I miss seeing you post here, hon. Is everything going OK for you? Please let K and me know cos we really do care! Luv....W.<p>[This message has been edited by Windancer (edited April 25, 2001).]

My soul so much of this sound familiar. My H has had the other woman friends since the day we met. How stupid could I have been. I have been posting on emotional needs board, but came here today. <P>It first started with the ex-girlfriend that he had not seen in a long time. This was what I was told when we were introduced. Turned out that long time was six weeks before we met when he went to stay with her in TX over Valentines day. They of course carried on secret meetings, phone calls etc for 3 years into our marriage on a regular basis. I like some of you had no hard proof of sex. He has admitted to kissing her after we married, but denies sex. Like you all, how stupid does he think I am? Someone he had sex with while they were dating, but get married, and no sex just making out. PLEASE! <P>She finally got married and moved out of state. I thought the problems might be over, but of course she was replaced by other close female friends. No sex of course, he would just hang out with them at bars, and stay out late. I was always invited, but conviently this was done after work and I was never told about it (because it came up at the last minute) and of course the cell phone or pager just accidently got turned off, left in the car, wasn't working etc. Also he has made trips out of town with other females, and said nothing happened. Please two females in the same hotel room with him, no other males, and they did not have sex. I have never been as insulted as to have that man look me in the face and tell me that nothing happened. <P>We have been doing this stupid cycle for over 8 years now. Our second child is due anyday now. He is being a jerk. I have talked until I am blue in the face about the problems he has. Of course he always denies any sexual stuff. The other night we had another incident with drinking, and he turned his phone off. I did have an angry outburst, but at this point in time, I am starting to think that he tries to provoke them so he will have an excuse to say why he did not come home. He places the blame on me. He tells me that I get mad and that makes him not want to come home, so therefore it justifies him staying out. I am about to go insane. I can't pinpoint any other female right now. But I know that the bars are crawling with single females looking for someone to have sex with them. He has been brazen enough to feel up another girls a** at a party at our house, while I watched from our bathroom window. He thought he was hiding it. We confronted, he did not want to bust the party up, that would ruin his fun. Instead I should just deal with it. I went outside to talk with a friend and looked inside to see miss thing standing right up next to him. Needless to say, that was the last straw. He refuses to go to counseling for "his problem". Apparently I am not open enough. I guess he means to allow him to have sexual affairs with whoever he wants.<P>With the second child on the way, my life has changed. I don't know what to think at this point. I have been in counseling, but had that put on hold because 11 weeks ago I went into preterm labor and was hospitalized for three weeks. After getting out I was assigned to strict bed rest. My spouse refuses to give up his habits that promote these incidents. He joins every thing he can think of to make sure he has plenty of crap to attend. He says he does it for work. He is in sales, what a wonderful excuse. He has to drink and party to meet new clients, heaven forbid he should have to find clients at church. <P>I am getting all sorts of mixed signals. Pastor feels that H is just not taking on proper role in marriage, and will with counseling. The only experience that we have with that is H being told to drop ex or not marry me by our pastor who counseled us before marriage. H said he would break off contact with her, but obviously said what everyone wanted to hear then went back to old ways. Not a good track record to build on huh? I have talked about current problems, and that I want to be asked to things, he has agreed, and then pulls things like the other night. My mother is the kind that does not believe in divorce no matter what. I can't prove affair to her, and I am not even sure she would think I should leave from that. I have been judged by her all my life. I am so unsure what to do right now. My husband has agreed to counseling, but never has time to go. I don't want to pay an arm and a leg for that man to lie to my face and a counselor. <P>On another note about the secret life and hiding things. You may can find out about it, but once they know how you found out they hide it another way. The cell phone bills and work phone detail is clean except incoming calls. Easy to get around as you all know. He cleans out his phone history of incoming calls on a regular basis so no way to see there. For the sake of proof I would like to know if he really is cheating or not. Since he denies so often. I want to see his reaction when confronted with pictures. Too add to all of this, I limited his money by getting rid of credit cards, and living on cash only. This worked to an extent until his mother got a card with him on it, and gave it to him. She has meddled in our life alot, and he refuses to take himself off the card. By the way, he is financially tied to the card and it has a 12,000 limit. She does not pay her bills timely, and this is enough of a reason for us to avoid that since we have great credit, but he refuses to cancel it. <P>Any thoughts? <P>Sorry this post is SOOOOOO long.<P>Len<P>We have been talking more recently

Lostandfound:<P>There is so much in common with what you write and the lives of others on this forum including myself. <P>You are in such a vulernable position with the pregnancy it makes it even more difficult to make a decision that will be best for everyone involved. My heart goes out to you. <P>As far as thoughts on what you wrote, well, I too have been told "no sex". Of course he had to admit sex with his A, but get this, he told me it only happened 4 times. What's worse I believed him. Dum Dum Dee Dumm. I thought he was coming clean, yeah right.<P>Maybe we need to all take the "Be happy with life, sit back attitude and keep our eyes "really" open to what our H are doing. Maybe if they have a sense of security, their true selves will emerge. I think that's what I am doing. <P>I hope and pray that I will be strong enough if the time comes to leave him. <P>I need to ask a question, you said something about him deleting calls on his cell phone. Does that mean calls he's made won't show up on his bill? The incoming calls do not show the number they come from, is there any way of getting this information from the cell company?<P>As it is my H knows any calls HE makes I will know about. But, calls made to him I will not. God it would be wonderful if there was a way to get a list of the numbers coming in. Especially since he thinks I can't. <P>You were right when you said they find new ways of hiding things. Mine had a picture of the OW in our bedroom, he took it out to show me because he was afraid I was going to try to contact her, he thought (idiot) that once I saw what she looked like that would satisfy me. <P>I had no idea where he hid this thing. He did rip it up after he showed me but not without having a tearful look on his face. PUKE, and I didn't ask him to. He actually had the nerve to say "Maybe I need to get this back to her because it's the only picture of her on her ranch", I said do what you want.<P>I sure wish I had answers for you. The best I can do is tell you keep posting, Windancer and window have excellent advice. It does help to know that you are not alone, and it does help to have someone to confide in. <P>I did find a list of "How affairs can be hidden" somewhere on this forum, forgot where, but it was excellent, it gives you ideas of where your spouse might try to hide things from you. It was an eyeopener for me.<P>Take care, <P>

Windancer:<P>Yes, I believe bery strongly that change has to come from within the person doing it. You cannot force someone to change, and yes drug or alcohol abuse are prime examples.<P>So too is change within oneself. I think my husband is looking at it from the point of view that I am forcing a change in him. I know deep down that if he does not buy into it for himself nothing I do or say will make it happen. I know this, I am not stupid. <P>Yes, I want change, but if he can't I deserve to know, I deserve the opportunity to make the decision to tolerate it or go on. As it is I know for my own good, my own preservation I will not tolerate it. <P>Its like when he told me that he hadn't gone to the rally without me "because of me". I told him no, you didn't go because of you. He came back with "well I know it would have caused problems". No, I would have filed for divorce. No problem here. But then later that weekend he says he won't promise me he won't go by himself if I can't. Back to square one I guess. I do know I won't be sitting at home waiting for his return.<P>You know what's so maddening? I have to follow the same rules as he does now. I have friends, female, that want me to go out of town with him. If I go, his opinion is so should he. I have pointed out that I did not have the A, he did. This is when he tells me "you'll just have to trust me".<P>Does anyone know how much it costs to hire a private detective. I know this sounds ridiculous, but I was curious. It would certainly be easier to trust if I had someone else watching him. He certainly knows how to bend the truth to justify his actions. Yes, thats rationalizing. Black and white or even color photos would really put water on his fire.<P>I worry that I am not going through this the correct way. Go on and live does not seem to be my motto, it's more like, watch him until he screws up cause deep inside I know he will. Not a good way to try to continue a relationship for sure. Is trust gone for me? <P>Well, gotta go, keep our chins up.<P>Love ya

Lostandfound, thank you for joining us! I am so sorry for your pain. My H has talked now and then about going into a drug rep position. I said absolutely not. They have to shmooze with so many women, travel all around, etc. I hate that he works with so many women anyway, I wouldn't want to add to the mix. <P>It must be hard for you dealing with that, plus being pregnant. I was so hormonal in my pregnancies. I wouldn't want to add an A to that. Right after my last pregnancy I had to get on a low dose anti-depressant because of post partum depression. It was terrible. Can you take any anti-depressants while you're pregnant? If you can you should do that. Mine are still low dose, but I can't deal with all of this w/out them.<P>Hi Winny and K,<BR>Sorry I have been gone. I have been reading, but haven't been up to posting. Thank you for inquiring about me. I appreciate how much you both care. <P>I have known that something was up with my hubby lately and it was making me paranoid. We finally talked about it late last night. He said that he agrees w/the MB philosophy and all, but it was really stressing him out. He is a total perfectionist and he said that he was constantly worrying about love units. I am sure that he said it much better. I know that you both are going to say that he deserves to be stressed. He said that too. He said he knew that he brought it all on himself. <P>He feels like he is under a microscope. I told him that he is not under a microscope. He said that he realizes what he did wrong and he will never allow that to happen again. He gets mad about MB putting blame on the BS for not meeting EN of the WS. He can see how personally responsible I feel for his EA and he says that it was 100% not my fault. He said that I meet his needs and I shouldn't feel like I did something wrong to provoke what happened. My favorite thing he said is that he feels that he is an adult and should have know better.<P>Anyway, I feel better today. I hate knowing something is wrong and not being able to figure out what. He said that he really didn't know what was bothering him. I am glad he figured out what it was.<P>You both are sounding so strong. I am really pleased that you have found such strength. You are inspirations to me. I know that we will all survive this and come out stronger. Which one of you said, "Whatever doesn't kill us makes us stronger?" Was it one of you? I know! It was on "Steel Magnolias." One of my all time favs! We will all be stronger because of this. God is using this site to help people in our situations. Wow! I actually have positive thoughts today. <P>It is so beautiful outside today! I wish our income tax $ would come in so I could go buy some azalea bushes and rose bushes. Winny, aren't you in PA? How is the weather there? My aunts and uncles live there. My parents are from there. They are from the northern part near Williamsport. <P>Take care!<BR>Love ya,<BR>Window

Hello and Welcome, Len!<BR>I, too, am so sorry for your emotional pain, hon, and I'm sure you really don't need all of this on top of your pregnancy. {{{Len}}} Just a gentle hug there for you, because no expectant mommy should have to feel anything but the excitement and joy she feels over the new life forming inside of her.<P>So, you, too, are caught up in a web of lies and deceitful behavior, huh? I'm so sorry, Len. When our spouses do what they do, the pain they cause cannot be measured on any known scale. I can tell you this, though: I found out the very hard way that when a spouse becomes very secretive and starts hiding things (such as promptly erasing all incoming calls on their cell phone, or hiding bills, etc.), you can be sure that they have a good reason for their behavior. To put it simply, they are doing something they do not want their spouse to know about. Now, that can take many forms, from gambling to cheating and every other thing in between. The problem is not only the intuitive feeling a wife gets, knowing that something isn't quite right, but its the not knowing for sure just what it is. To me, nothing could be crueler behavior. <P>For months before my own "D day", I had more than a hunch that something was up. He just seemed to change, almost overnight. Suddenly being very secretive, hiding all kinds of things, and even getting a PO box of his own told me that he was up to something and whatever it was, it couldn't be good. Boy, was I ever "right on!" When I found a letter from a mutual friend of ours to him (a married female, no less), and it was signed "I'll be there forever for you...all my love, _____", I knew that I had been had. <P>Right under my very nose and for God only knows how long, he had been having some kind of EA, at least. I still to this date have no proof that it advanced to a PA or not because OF COURSE,he denied any such behavior. After a lot of reading and research, I found out that almost always, a cheating spouse will deny sexual activity outside the marriage. Why this is, I am not exactly sure, but I can guess: 1. it would spell financial disaster in a divorce court for the betrayer, and 2. once admitted, they can never take the words back. And, knowing down deep that it is such a serious sin, few people would ever admit outloud to it. <P>Part of my problem is that I want oh, so much to believe him when he says he's innocent of any wrongdoing. My God! We've been married 13 years and I never, ever thought something like this could happen to us. I hate to use this comparison, but it feels like a cancer developed and is eating us both alive. How much do I wish it all never happened! But...it did, and that's the point all of us on this MB are at. We are trying to deal with the truth, the facts, and go on with our lives from there. To me, it is a journey through Hell, and one I never would have chosen but because of my H's weakness and selfishness, it is a path I am forced to travel. <P>Sweetie, you sound so young and vulnerable. My heart really does go out to you. PLEASE...concentrate on that little baby you're carrying and take real good care of yourself. Take no crap from your H at this time, if you can help it, and just be real good to YOU. Do what I do: keep a daily journal and write down everything that he does that makes you upset or fearful. I am amazed at what a helpful tool this is! If and when such time I decide to go for a divorce, I will have a very valuable document to draw from. Also, if you are like me, I tend to forget little details when I am uspet or angry. Writing them down is a huge help because you never know when that information will come in handy.<P>Please keep us posted, Len. We are not really as strong as we sound (K, Window and myself), but we are getting stronger a little bit at a time, day by day. Any time you need to vent, just drop us a post here and we'll listen.<BR>God bless.<BR>Hugs..<BR>Winny<p>[This message has been edited by Windancer (edited April 27, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by window:<BR>[B]He feels like he is under a microscope. I told him that he is not under a microscope. He said that he realizes what he did wrong and he will never allow that to happen again. He gets mad about MB putting blame on the BS for not meeting EN of the WS. He can see how personally responsible I feel for his EA and he says that it was 100% not my fault. He said that I meet his needs and I shouldn't feel like I did something wrong to provoke what happened. My favorite thing he said is that he feels that he is an adult and should have know better.<P>Hi, Window!<BR>I'm telling you, your H is truly a very rare person! I think it is wonderful of him to be so kind and considerate of your feelings now. So few of us ever have that happen with us. I know that, for example, my H is just chock FULL of blame and all kinds of uglies for his recent strange behavior. I am the major target of his anger and blame, but in reality, it was his own bad choices throughout our life together that are the real culprits. When he gets to the point where he can see and admit this, then true healing will begin. We are miles from that point yet and may never get there--but it's a slow process that has to be taken one day at a time. <P>Please tell your H for me that he shouldn't compare himself to other BS's on this board or any place else. Each of us is a unique entity with our own problems, beliefs, and circumstances. If he feels he is under a microscope, it's probably just his guilty conscience talking to him. No one likes to look at the bad things they've done and remember them! I know I sure don't! He sounds like he is sincerely trying and I think that is wonderful. <P>So, hang in there, you two! It sure sounds like this was a mistake that you both can work together through and get past, and with the two of you trying, how can you do anything but succeed?? Hugs to both of you...<BR>Winny

[QUOTE]Originally posted by k9love:<BR>[Does anyone know how much it costs to hire a private detective. I know this sounds ridiculous, but I was curious. It would certainly be easier to trust if I had someone else watching him. He certainly knows how to bend the truth to justify his actions. Yes, thats rationalizing. Black and white or even color photos would really put water on his fire.<P>I worry that I am not going through this the correct way. Go on and live does not seem to be my motto, it's more like, watch him until he screws up cause deep inside I know he will. Not a good way to try to continue a relationship for sure. Is trust gone for me? <P>Wow, K!<BR>This is really getting spooky! I swear to all that's holy, I've been thinking of the very same thing, hiring a PI. Why? Becuase I know that chances are his being 100% truthful to me about cheating are slim to none and because I just hate living like this, too! It's the not knowing for sure that is the killer. I mean, even if you know your spouse had a PA, it's the not knowing for sure that it's 100% over that hurts so badly. Trust?? Wow..how does one ever again build up trust after such a disaster? My H could swear on a stack of Bibles that he'd 'never do it again' (assuming he'd admit it in the first place) and I would still doubt him. They say that it's in a person's actions that trust is rebuilt. I think that goes far beyond just being nice. Right now, for instance, my H is being really 'nice' to me. He calls me sometimes during the day, he talks calmly and nicely to me but something still isn't quite right. He refuses to even touch me and I mean that literally. It's as if I am crawling with disease! The man refuses to even lay a hand on me, let alone make love to me. That hasn't happened in nearly a year now, and I decided to call my attorney today and make an appointment with her. I read on another post here (I think it was under the EN section) that denying sex to a spouse is just like breaking the marriage vows! I tend to agree with that. If he's not getting it from me, then where IS he getting it from? Leaving me out in the cold is not only cruel, but it's morally not right, either.<P>So, I'm thinking of hiring that PI, too, K. I want to find out for sure just what's what. In my case, I'm going to let my atty. guide me. Maybe she has a better idea.<P>Hugs to you, sweet K! Hang in there..<BR>Luv ya,<BR>Winny

Hi ladies,<P>Thought I'd check out your thread again and see how you were.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by window:<BR><B><BR>He feels like he is under a microscope. I told him that he is not under a microscope. He said that he realizes what he did wrong and he will never allow that to happen again. He gets mad about MB putting blame on the BS for not meeting EN of the WS. He can see how personally responsible I feel for his EA and he says that it was 100% not my fault. He said that I meet his needs and I shouldn't feel like I did something wrong to provoke what happened. My favorite thing he said is that he feels that he is an adult and should have know better.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I agree with Windancer that your H sounds like a pretty good guy, despite his wrong choice.<P>I don't think that MB blames the BS; most here feel the responsibility for their bad choices is all the WSs. Maybe this is splitting hairs, but what MB does say is that while the WS is responsible for his/her choices, the fact that they were strongly tempted to make those bad choices is usually due to the state of the marriage. MB says that the state of the marriage is the responsibility of both partners.<P>In all probability the FS was not that happy with the marriage either, they just didn't choose an affair as the solution. However, Dr. Harley did state somewhere that simultaneous affairs are not uncommon. So it's usually not that great for either spouse. Dr. Harley usually addresses the responsibility of the BS because that's usually the one who is interested in fixing things. The WS has already shown they are ready to give up by having the A, and it does no good to preach to someone who isn't interested in trying anymore.<P>Hope that helps in understanding the MB philosophy. I posted to someone recently something like this: "Your WS is at least as much at fault as you, but they aren't here, so you get the lecture on how to fix things."<P>On another topic, you are all quite right to address the subject of boundaries, and comfort one another about the pain that you must deal with. Ironically, I think that becoming stronger and more able to be independent is a necessary condition for healthy intimacy and interdependence.<P>However, I hope that you aren't forgetting to also work on your marriages by meeting ENs and avoiding lovebusters. Doing this should not be considered contradictory to maintaining boundaries. Of course, it might be a tough balancing act.<P>Best wishes to all of you,<P>Steve

[QUOTE]Originally posted by StillHers:<P>>>I don't think that MB blames the BS; most here feel the responsibility for their bad choices is all the WSs. Maybe this is splitting hairs, but what MB does say is that while the WS is responsible for his/her choices, the fact that they were strongly tempted to make those bad choices is usually due to the state of the marriage. MB says that the state of the marriage is the responsibility of both partners.<P>In all probability the FS was not that happy with the marriage either, they just didn't choose an affair as the solution. However, Dr. Harley did state somewhere that simultaneous affairs are not uncommon. So it's usually not that great for either spouse. Dr. Harley usually addresses the responsibility of the BS because that's usually the one who is interested in fixing things. The WS has already shown they are ready to give up by having the A, and it does no good to preach to someone who isn't interested in trying anymore.>><P><BR>HI, Steve!<BR>It was great to see a post from you here today! Your viewpoint hit close to home with me, but I do have a question: did you ever hear of a case before where the WS was unhappy in the marriage but he or she kept that to himself? That's what happened in my marriage. I swear to God, I had NO idea my H was as unhappy as he apparently was. The really odd part is that for all intents and purposes, things seemed normal to me because with him, it was hard to tell. He has always been a workaholic and very dedicated to his career. He's always worked far more hours than most people, and was never what one might call a 'party animal.' In fact, we haven't had a vacation or even gone to a movie in more than 8 years! He is a very controlling type of man and came and went with little regard to my feelings or desires. I just sort of accepted his behavior as being him, the way he always was. <P>I got very sick 6 years ago and nearly died. He was by my side for the most part throughout the whole thing. Still, this did not change his long hours at work and all the rest. He still continued to live his life the way he chose, including having his own recreational escape (martial arts). It was I who was left behind in the house, unable to drive or get around on my own and who became a literal prisoner of my home for all that time. I was determined to not become a burden to him, so I made it a point not to complain, no matter how much pain--physical or emotional--I was in. I look back now and see this was really stupid! <P>Suddenly this past year, his alleged EA came to light. I say alleged because he still denies it, but the proof is really in his actions towards me and in certain things I've found and found out. I discovered from a relative of mine that he had been going to my relative for the past 2 years and telling him how horrible he felt within our marriage and that he wanted OUT. Honestly, Steve, when my relative finally broke down and told me what was going on, you could have knocked me over with a feather! I truly had no idea. To me, things seemed as normal as always, but you are still quite right. I was not that happy, either, but kept quiet because I didn't want to make waves, figuring he had enough on his mind with his job. That was a big mistake on my part now, and that proves what you've said on a couple of fronts.<P>Your comment that it does no good to preach to someone who isn't interested in trying anymore hit me between the eyes! That is exactly what has come out during some pretty bad arguments my H and I have had recently. He told me during one bout that he just wasn't 'interested anymore' in our marriage. Yet, he would not go. Why is this?? I told him that I didn't want to live with someone who didn't love me or respect me anymore, yet he makes no steps towards leaving or rectifying the situation. I think I know why he is still here, but it is a reason too personal to tell on this MB. Let's just say that it involves money--lots of it--and I think he is holding out because of it. This upsets me even further, but I can't make him leave and I sure can't make him love me! This is one reason why I am seeking legal advice, Steve. I'm now getting way off the point I was trying to make here, so let me get back to it: my point is, what is the FS supposed to do when the WS keeps his true feelings hidden from the FS? What could or should I have done, because I'm sure that there must be some kind of bomb-defusing thing that I might have tried? I really value your insight and input, Steve, and would like to know your thoughts on this.<P>Thanks so much in advance and again, it was good to see your post here!<BR>Hugs,<BR>Winny<P><p>[This message has been edited by Windancer (edited April 27, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Windancer:<BR><B><BR>did you ever hear of a case before where the WS was unhappy in the marriage but he or she kept that to himself? That's what happened in my marriage. I swear to God, I had NO idea my H was as unhappy as he apparently was.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well, there are all kinds of people and all kinds of marriages. Certainly a lot of people who post here have been stunned to discover, sometimes too late, the extent of their partner's unhappiness. My sister is several decades older than me, and finished raising my brother and I after our parents died. She is someone who almost never acknowledges any negative emotions. To this day I don't think I've ever heard her describe how she felt when our parents died. It took me a long time to realize how dysfunctional this is. So some people just don't communicate or confront negatives, or possibly some subjects, very well.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>He has always been a workaholic and very dedicated to his career. He's always worked far more hours than most people, and was never what one might call a 'party animal.' In fact, we haven't had a vacation or even gone to a movie in more than 8 years!<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This makes it very tough; the rule of time is the cornerstone of the Marriage Builders teachings, which makes it possible to meet ENs.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>He is a very controlling type of man and came and went with little regard to my feelings or desires. I just sort of accepted his behavior as being him, the way he always was. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I don't think Plan A means being a doormat. You don't want to be angry or controlling (and thus lovebust), but you need to have boundaries. Some of the people on the Emotional Needs forum are pretty good with these kinds of issues, you might consider posting there. I've seen the book <I>Boundaries in Marriage</I> recommended also, although I haven't had time to read it yet. <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I discovered from a relative of mine that he had been going to my relative for the past 2 years and telling him how horrible he felt within our marriage and that he wanted OUT. <P>...Your comment that it does no good to preach to someone who isn't interested in trying anymore hit me between the eyes! That is exactly what has come out during some pretty bad arguments my H and I have had recently. He told me during one bout that he just wasn't 'interested anymore' in our marriage. Yet, he would not go. Why is this??<P>...I think I know why he is still here, but it is a reason too personal to tell on this MB. Let's just say that it involves money--lots of it--and I think he is holding out because of it.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well, he may still care about you and feel some obligation to his marriage, but no longer be in love. Have you read about <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3600_state.html" TARGET=_blank>the three states of marriage</A> from the <I>Concepts</I> link on this site? This sounds like the state of <B>withdrawal</B>--he no longer cares about the relationship (even tho as I say, he may care about you, just not feel in love). This state seems peaceful, but any sense of wellbeing in the relationship is illusory. Being in the state of <B>conflict</B>, with lots of arguments, is actually better. It indicates that the parties care enough about the relationship to at least fight about it. They haven't just given up.<P>BTW, to get from withdrawal to the state of <B>intimacy</B> you have to pass through conflict.<P>His workaholism may be an addiction. One thing I seem to recall is that Dr. Harley has said that you can't really work on a marriage with an addict or alcoholic--they have to get help for the addiction first. Significant mental health problems or FOO (family of origin) issues may also have to be addressed before being able to make significant progress in a marriage.<P>However, at one time I presume he was able to show interest in being with you enough to make you fall in love and marry him. So he probably is capable of an intimate relationship.<P>Not being either a mental health professional or knowing a lot about your H, I hesitate to say. I would want to know that you had spent perhaps 6 months or more in a good <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000176.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>, well targeted to your H's ENs, before concluding that more than just MB methods is needed to bring your H out of withdrawal.<P>Anyway, as I sometimes say, you have your homework, now go to it! I've got to get busy with other things, I'll check back tonight or tomorrow.<P>Best wishes,<P>Steve<P><BR>

Windancer:<P>Yours is a very hard situation indeed. I had no idea there was no intimacy. It would make anyone wonder where his needs are being fulfilled. <P>I understand better now where you are coming from. I have seen the three stages of marriage as Steve mentioned. It is very interesting.<P>God bless you sweety, keep us posted.<P>Love ya

HI Steve...<BR>Thanks for your response. What you say makes a lot of sense, and I finally found the Plan A section of this site, went to it and read all about it. That, too, made a lot of sense and I decided to implement plan A. Already, it helped to diffuse what could have developed into a needless confrontation and for that, I am very grateful!<P>I just wanted to add a couple of facts here, so that you all understand my situation a bit better. Our lives were almost perfect up until I got very ill. I mean it! We enjoyed each other's company, did all kinds of things together and sex was never an issue between us. We were both pretty well matched in sexual desire and honestly, we had things very, very good. All that time, my H worked and worked--but his main problem is that he had too kind of a heart and gave away a LOT of our money to others in need. I could see even back then that he was suffering from some kind of emotional problem, probably related to his overly demanding mother who never gave him praise or even a show of appreciation for anything he ever did or accomplished for her, or otherwise. At that time, I worked, too, and brought in a very good salary. We pooled our money together and as I said, life was good.<P>Then, illness struck. Unable to work anymore, I had to go out on disability. Even that took me nearly 2 years to procure, during which time we slipped lower and lower on the financial ladder. To a man, not one person repaid--or even attempted to repay--any of the money my H loaned out. It was just a matter of simple mathematics: before too long, we were nearly bankrupt. Without our combined former incomes, and with our present bills (a lot of which were medical expenses not covered by med. ins.), added to the deficit of the money we literally gave away, we fell into a deadly trap. We nearly lost our home and everything we ever worked so hard for! To my H, this was the biggest hurt of all, that he nearly lost our home. He felt like a failure of a man, and inside the resentment kept on building up towards all those who took advantage of him and his good nature. <P>What I am describing is incredible pressure on my H. It broke my heart, and still does, to see him hurting so badly inside. If I could only get well enough again to go back to work, that would at least ease some of the pressure. But, I can't and that is something that I know deep down he resents, but would never, ever admit it to me or to anyone else. He still continues to work like crazy (proof is in his paychecks), and honestly, this is one reason I really doubt he ever got to the PA stage. I DO believe that our mutual "friend" did sit and talk with him, and that given enough time, it might have gone farther. But I also believe and know that my H is a very honorable man, and find it very hard to believe that he would ever cross that fine line. He just simply did not have the time to fool around, but talk on the phone..sure. That I can believe easily. <P>He is now in a very low sex drive state. Who can blame him? Oh, we do try, sort of, but it isn't like it was before. Because of the nature of my illness, I know that he is afraid of hurting me and that dampens his desire quite a bit. Also, he is just plain dead tired and in pain himself. Some of the things he wants to do sexually leave me frustrated, but right now, it's the best we can do. At least, I try to please him and I think that this is OK for me to do. To me, any contact at all is better than no contact. <P>All I can do at this time is to be as emotionally supportive as I can be, and believe me, I try very hard to be supportive. We don't fight (we have nothing to really argue about), it's just that we are both caught in a situation (our financial crisis) for now that is neither pleasant, nor desirable and for now, each of us is doing the best that we can. It's a lonely road to travel for both of us, I am sure, and having that bimbo try to move in on him didn't help things out any. At least, I feel that although he shared the responsibility with her for the alleged EA, he has also made the decision to stop, or if not stop, at least cut way back on it. I just have no way of knowing for sure, other than he is still here with me and other than an occasional verbal outburst (relating events of a frustrating day to me), things are much better now than they were 5 months ago. It's funny, but Dr. Harley said in his Plan A article that an affair usually cools down after about 6 months and this is what I think I am seeing with my H. That is, assuming he had an EA at all. With him, you just never know. <P>I only know that I love him and want to save our marriage and will do whatever it takes to save it. He really is a wonderful man with lots of love in his heart, and I think that this whole thing was a part of God's plan to teach us both some things He wanted us to learn. My H has said NOW, that no matter what, he will never be used by his so-called friends or others again! He said that our home and lives will come first now and forever more. I've wanted to hear those words for so long, I just can't tell you how much! As for me, I am not going to allow my grown children to use him again, either, or use me for that matter. My H's hurts run deep and I needed to understand their cause, and yes, my kids are partly to blame. <P>Hope some of this makes some sense to you, Steve! <P>And K, thanks, sweetie for your understanding post. Any encouragement is very much appreciated! Hope all is going better for you this week, too. <P>Hugs to all,<BR>Winny<P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Windancer:<BR><B>HI Steve...<BR>Thanks for your response. What you say makes a lot of sense, and I finally found the Plan A section of this site, went to it and read all about it. That, too, made a lot of sense and I decided to implement plan A. Already, it helped to diffuse what could have developed into a needless confrontation and for that, I am very grateful!<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>I'm really glad to hear this. The principles taught by Dr. Harley are really the basis of what this place is about. The forums should be a supplement to our trying to apply those principles--a place to come for coaching and encouragement in our efforts to do so. Remember, while most of those here are bright, caring people, Dr. Harley has dealt with thousands of struggling couples. Moreover, unlike many if not most marriage counselors, he seems to have had a pretty good success rate.<P>I recommend reading all the articles and concepts on the main site. The books are good too--I have 3 or 4 of them. <I>Give and Take</I> might be the best for most people to start with, if they're not dealing with an ongoing affair. For those who are <I>Surviving an Affair</I> might be the one to start with. BTW, they're available through the web site at reasonable prices...I think some libraries may have them also.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>All that time, my H worked and worked--but his main problem is that he had too kind of a heart and gave away a LOT of our money to others in need. I could see even back then that he was suffering from some kind of emotional problem, probably related to his overly demanding mother who never gave him praise or even a show of appreciation for anything he ever did or accomplished for her, or otherwise. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It's amazing how much FOO(family of origin) issues can affect us, and how long it take to work through them. FOO issues are one thing which can sabotage marital recovery, along with significant mental health issues and addictions. The MB principles aren't designed to address these, counseling may be helpful but I understand that you're under financial constraints right now.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>We nearly lost our home and everything we ever worked so hard for! To my H, this was the biggest hurt of all, that he nearly lost our home. He felt like a failure of a man...<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Admiration is one of the top 5 ENs of most men, you should make sure you express your admiration and appreciation of him often. He probably really needs this.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>He is now in a very low sex drive state. Who can blame him? Oh, we do try, sort of, but it isn't like it was before.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>The EN (Emotional Needs) forum might be a good place to post about this. You might get some helpful suggestions.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I just have no way of knowing for sure, other than he is still here with me and other than an occasional verbal outburst (relating events of a frustrating day to me), things are much better now than they were 5 months ago.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well, I get the impression that your H is really a pretty good guy. It also sounds like you had a pretty good foundation for your marriage. The lack of sexual passion is a concern...many people have been shocked to find that their spouse was capable of an A (affair). Dr. Harley's conclusion is that we're all wired for them and need to guard our marriage by keeping it strong. Your words that I quoted above sound good, though, <B>unless</B> it means he's gone from conflict to withdrawal (see that three states of marriage article).<P>Anyway, keep reading the concepts and posting. In all probability you can have a better marriage than ever before, but it takes perseverance in applying the MB concepts. I'm sorry you've had a tough road recently, but I hope better things are in store for you and your H.<P>Steve

Dear Steve,<BR>I finally finished reading through every section Dr Harley presented here on his site for getting a marriage back on track and what an eye-opener a lot of this info is! I have printed most of it out and am keeping it to read during my rest periods--and really trying to digest what the good doctor is saying. I had to do this in order to understand what you meant by "withdrawal" being one of the states of marriage, and Steve....wow! Was this ever a close call for my H and me!<P>I think that for the most part, he was in the beginnings of the state of withdrawal, but instinctively, I have been following the things that I'd read so far here by Dr. Harley. My problem was that I read them out of order (being so upset and anxious the day I found this site!), and NOW, they make very good sense.<P>He is coming out of that horrible state and believe it or not, the two of us DO argue. I goofed when I said we didn't argue anymore--what I meant was that we weren't arguing anymore about whether or not he had an EA. He knows that I believe he did and I do not hit him over the head with it. For that, he is very grateful, I am sure. For his part, he continues to deny being unfaithful, and I have decided to concentrate more on what we can do to save our marriage than concentrate or obsess over his one mistake. So, we have this kind of tacit agreement that a mistake was made on both our parts and we are working now to ensure things will improve between us. Hopefully, we can save our marriage and I believe in my deepest heart of hearts that we can. I think he wants it saved, too, because he is beginning once again to express honest caring and interest in me. <P>The sex part is going to need some work because both of us have underlying medical reasons why it isn't so good right now. At least, we both talk about it and agree that our medical conditions are to blame. As soon as we come out of this financial crisis, which by the way shouldn't be too long from now, I know that job related pressure will ease up on him and he will start getting the rest he so desperately needs. Sleep deprivation is very harmful to a normal body, let alone one with a painful bone ailment. His is spinal disc in origin, so you can imagine how much pain he is in on a daily basis (he has multi-disc involvement), working about 18 hours a day, six days a week. Mine, on the other hand is a rare bone disease, but I am taking care of it as best as I can with adequate medical consult and care.<P>Steve...many, many thanks for your kind encouragement and prompting me which articles to read! I now want to buy some of Dr. Harley's books, but I will ask at my library first if they have any copies I can borrow. <P>It's a scary journey for sure, and one filled with a lot of pain and doubt but sometimes things like an affair can happen as a wakeup call, I believe. I know it sure got MY attention and I am going to do everything I possibly can to be more understanding of my H and to follow those guidelines Dr. Harley offered. Hopefully one day, so will my H, but it has to start with someone, so it might as well be me.<P>Thanks again..please keep in touch here!<BR>Hugs..<BR>Winny<p>[This message has been edited by Windancer (edited April 30, 2001).]

Hi all,<P>Yes even as you all were posting your replies I was inlabor having a beautiful 7 lb 2 oz girl. Victoria Ashland on April 26th. As usual, family got put on the back burner. He had class that morning until 11:00 and I called him when I went in by myself. He said he would be there shortly. However shortly was after he attended a luncheon for the Chamber of Commerce and a meeting for another volunteer project he does. He showed up at 2:00 pm. It was humiliating to know that I got put second place to those types of things. Our child got sick right after we brought her home and we had to take her back. While I was worn out and scared to death about our child he wanted to go home to sleep. Then on this Friday he made an appointment after work with a couple to talk about car insurance. Of course he said he would be home at 6:00pm. 6:40 he calls and tells our 8 year old he is running late. I started calling him about 7:30. He came in at 1:45 am drunk off his rocker. Apparently the couple and their single friend went from one bar to another and he went with them. Of course nothing happened, but he did buy the single female drinks. Only her of course not the couple. I am at the breaking point. I told him I am moving out. I don't think he believes me. Our oldest child gets out of school in three weeks, and for her grades sake I will be waiting until after that point. I won't to make sure she can transition easily, and would like to start some counseling for her before that point. Thanks for all your supporting answers. <P>On a brief note, his cell is like most. Incoming calls don't show up on the bill. I might could get a list, but he bought the cells, and has not added me to the account. He must have had them put a note in the account, because I called once, and they refused to give out any info to me. <P>I will start reading again over the next few days. I don't know all your histories since I haven't made it all the wy through, but I thought I would update you all on where I am. The only bad thing I face right now is my mom. She thinks we should try to work on things. That is fine and all, but I lost my cool the other night around my girls about the going out stunt, and I can't have that happen again. I feel the only way to prevent it is to move out so I won't have to know when he stays out until all hours with the other women.<P>Any thoughts?

On Steve's point about the three stages of marriage and Conflict - I need some clarification on this one. I don't know thinking back that my H has ever been in the intimacy or conflict state. Looking back over the years, I have always been the one doing the arguing, not him. He just sits there and does not respond much. His only arguing comes in the form of the defense that he is not doing anything. I am not sure that this is what conflict really is. If that is the case, then my H has been in withdrawal since right after we got married. <P>Windancer you said<P>Sweetie, you sound so young and vulnerable. <P>You have no idea how right you are. I have no idea what to believe right now. Like you I want so badly to think what he says is true because I love him and whole heartedly believe in marriage and working things out. I don't know how to answer the questions that I have running through my mind. I feel like I could end it if I knew for sure he had done things in the past and that this is always going to be his nature, but I don't know that and I would hate to end my marriage over something I thought was happening, but wasn't. <P>I posted earlier on Anger, and how do I deal with it. I am having a hard time with the carelessness in which he treats my emotional needs. I don't have that under control. That comes from the young and vunerable part. I know I need to get it that way for the three girls in this family (myself and two children). Have you all had the same feelings? What kind of time frame does it last? This has just recently become what I would consider out of control. I almost go into panic attacks when he is out. Fear of him not coming home or something like that drive me insane. I can't tell if right now it is all part of the pregnancy thing and will get bac to normal, or if this is part of what people dealing with "addicts" face. Right now I have determined that is part of what is wrong, whether it is alcohol, sex, or something else his pattern is that of an addict. <P>Len<BR>

Lostandfound,<P>Congratulations on your wonderful baby girl!!!!! What a shame that your H has done such terrible things that will taint your first memories of her. I am so sorry that you are dealing with this while also dealing w/a brand new baby. Lack of sleep, hormones, crying baby, and a H who is not there! Yuk! <P>I cannot say how long the anxiety lasts (when your H is out of the house). The 3 of us here have discussed us feeling that way, also. I still have it and I am over 1 month since D-day. My H is really striving to prove himself and I still feel scared. I cannot imagine how it would be if he were still doing irresponsible things. I am forcing myself to not panic, but I can still feel it in the pit of my stomach sometimes. I guess I would like an answer to that question, also.<P>I don't know if it goes along with MB philosophy, but I agree that you should move out after your older daughter finishes this semester or have him move. I would opt for him moving. Why should you have to upset the girls when he is the one doing all of this?<P>I cannot write much tonight. My H is asleep and my typing is bothering him. I will pray for you tonight. I will write more tomorrow.<P>Hi K9 and Winny! Hope you girls are doing well!<P>Love,<BR>Window