Way to go Brawner!!! Thank you for so eloquently stating the truth. I do feel for Paint who is going through such a terrible emotional trauma - I too am going through the same thing - only without the pregnancy.<P>If abortion is NOT killing an innocent child - what is it?<P>It is my opinion that it is wrong - however, I will NOT judge Paint if she indeed chooses to kill her child. What I will say is this - she needs to NOT make a decision - a life and death decision - now - while her emotions are out of control. That is my only point. It is for the long-term benefit of both the mother and the child. <P>I am continuing to pray.<P>And by the way, boomer, YOU are judging ME - but I forgive you already!<P>Be blessed all, and . . .<P>BE GOD'S!!!!!<P><P>------------------<BR>"For I know the plans I have for you - plans to prosper you - plans for good and not evil to give you a hope and a future" Jer. 29:11

Paintbox,<BR>I'm sorry that this is turning into a right-to-life/pro-choice issue. Please know that the board here for you to come for help and understanding with and about your marriage. <P>I may be truly flamed for this but I mostly lurk anyway. I suggest you re-register under another name and come back without bringing up the pregnancy. But do COME BACK because this board can help you and it has so much to offer. However, if you are not hurt or put-off by what is being said then I'm glad. I'm just a bit afraid that at this point your pregnancy issue will overshadow your other marriage issues.

Why can't you folks help this woman without doing a political polemic? Can't you take a break from grinding your axes?<P>This woman is having a very complicated personal crisis, and all you folks can do is throw your slogans around.<P>I understand that for SOME OF YOU, these are deeply held personal beliefs. For others, well, I don't want to do a political polemic here either. But even if you TRULY BELIEVE that abortion is murder, what makes you think that you're helping this woman in crisis?<P>Paintbox, my offer still stands. I am willing to help you off-board if you like, where you don't have to listen to the facile slogans you're being given here. My track record is pretty good. Just drop me an e-mail so I know how to contact you.

Okay, here it goes. This is something I never ever talk about, but I speak from experience here. I had an abortion 6 years ago. Every single day of my life I regret it! I hate that I killed my innocent child. I was pressured into the decision, but it was still ultimately my "choice" and I chose wrong. I know my baby is in Heaven and I know that I am forgiven by Jesus, but it is so extremely painful. Yes, people have strong opinions both ways. I think that ultimately us "pro-lifers" don't want Paint to make such a huge decision in the midst of this terrible crisis. No one is trying to be mean to her. I know that I am not up to making any life altering decisions right now and that is all anyone is trying to convey to Paint. I, as well as anyone else, will not judge her. It is not ours to judge. She will answer to God, as will I. I will love and support you, Paint, no matter what. Just know from my experience that it never goes away. Not a day goes by that I don't wonder what my little baby would be like. NOw that I have 2 boys, I think how could I have killed another that would have been as sweet as these? I wish you well, Paint. God bless you and I too will pray for you in this terrible time in your life.<P>With Love,<BR>Window

Window:<P>((((((((((hug))))))))))) for you dear sweet lady! I am so sorry that you are reliving your trauma here - but thank you for your words of advice from someone who has been "there" and experienced the pain and regret of that decision.<P>I agree - we "pro-lifers" are simply stating - "don't make such a decision during this time of great emotional trauma and personal upheaval". Why won't anyone see it that way???<P>I have no judgement in my heart towards Paint or any of the others who have voiced a "pro-choice" opinion here. Actually, though I believe abortion is murder - without a doubt - I do believe in a person's right to choose! God even gave us that right. We have a "right" to choose life or death, blessing or cursing, heaven or hell. I am not denying anyone the right to choose. I am merely suggesting that now is not the TIME to choose. Wait a few weeks. They still allow women to have abortions for many months into the pregnancy, right? So - what's the hurry??? <P>I pray for all of you here in the midst of emotional trauma and great pain - I pray that God in His mercy heals all of our wounded hearts!<P>Be blessed all, and . . .<P>Be God's!!!<BR><P>------------------<BR>"For I know the plans I have for you - plans to prosper you - plans for good and not evil to give you a hope and a future" Jer. 29:11

You're so sweet, Be God's. Thanks for the hug! I sure needed it. I think all we can do now is pray for Paint. Bless you for your kindness!<P>Window

The danger of boards like these is what we are experiencing right now. Nobody can read between the lines of a post to see the heart of the person.....words alone come across as harsher than people mean in many cases. I don't judge paintbox as a person or anyone else here as a person by their beliefs on abortion. We all have the free will to choose. My personal belief is that choosing life or adoption is the best way to go.<P>When someone posts the circumstances of their situation that impact the trauma of the infidelity, all the details become part of the story....all are subject to comment. That is sometimes good and sometimes bad. If you don't want someone's opinion on it, don't bring it up.<P>As with BeGods and window.....I believe making a decision to have an abortion while under the emotional strain of the marital problems is a huge mistake. I always.....<B>always</B> post to people in the very early stages of this trauma [b]never/b] to make any life-changing decisions. Nobody in this situation is capable of making those kinds of decisions while under this strain. There is the option of stopping things if a divorce is begun, you can always get remarried if it goes through and things are restored, but there is no going back once you've had an abortion. To do that under this circumstance would be a big mistake.<P>Call it political or any other thing you want. Paintbox posted the circumstances and received advice....might not be what some agree with, but that is part of the setup here....there are multiple opinions. In reality we're all on the same side anyway....we all want to see her marriage restored.<P>------------------<BR>"They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." Isaiah 40:31<p>[This message has been edited by HGBrawner (edited April 18, 2001).]

Dear Paintbox:<P>I have a similar story. I discovered my H's affair in Jan, 2000. I asked him to move out - and he did, March 1st. On March 14th, I discovered I was pregnant. <P>We have 2 other children, 7 and 9, and I have been a stay at home mom for 10 years. <P>I can not even begin to describe my pain, my fear, and my anger when I discovered my pregnancy. My H flat out accused me of lying about it, or getting pregnant intentionally to "trap" him. <P>You understand the overwhelming emotions I am talking about...you are living through them right now.<P>My difference from you is that I have always been adamantly pro-life. For me, there was no "choice", and I know that alot of people around me thought I was crazy for sticking to my principles, and carrying out my pregnancy.<P>My H suggested adoption. That wasn't a "choice" either because I already had children. I didn't want my children to ever believe that I could EVER give one of them away. If I had no other children, then adoption most surely would have been a serious consideration.<P>I can tell you that I stood with my fist raised at God and screamed at him for doing this to me. I didn't want this baby and I didn't want my marriage to end.<P>Fast forward 9 months, plus 5 more. <P>Guess what I got?<P>I got my baby, and not my marriage. <P>And do you know what?<P>I thank God EVERY DAY for bringing my beautiful, precious daughter into this world, and giving her to ME to love and to cherish. My little daughter probably thinks her mother is nuts, sobbing over her little precious fingers and toes the way I do.<P>I don't know how I am going to survive. I do know that I will be OK. There were many times in the last months that I begged God to send someone, anyone, to love me, if my H wouldn't love me. He did, before I even asked, but I didn't see it until now.<P>There is not one thing I would change today. <P>I will pray that God will change your heart. He is sending someone to love you, not to hinder you.

Bravo!!! Bravo!!! Bramblerose - Well said. Better than any of us could - for you have actually LIVED through it! <P>I Praise God that He has given you such a precious gift in your daughter!<P>I pray that He continues to heal your wounded heart, to meet your every need, and to send you - when you are ready - a man to love you as you should be loved - and a man to be a father to your children! In the Name of His Holy Child, Jesus - Amen and Amen!!<P>Be blessed sister, and . . .<P>Be God's!!!<BR><P>------------------<BR>"For I know the plans I have for you - plans to prosper you - plans for good and not evil to give you a hope and a future" Jer. 29:11

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I had an abortion 6 years ago. Every single day of my life I regret it! I hate that I killed my innocent child. I was pressured into the decision, but it was still ultimately my "choice" and I chose wrong. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh. I get it. You regret a choice you made and you'd like others to not have that choice. Swell. I made the mistake of going to a provincial college full of people who hated me because I was Jewish and asked where my horns were. You don't see me asking for my college to be shut down.<P>It's the height of hypocrisy to want others to not have a choice you had.<P>My mother had an abortion when she was young, and hasn't regretted it for a minute. She regretted that it was necessary, but didn't regret having it. And she still bore two children, so as you can see, it is not "mandatory."<P>BrambleRose, you are glad you have your child instead of your husband. I'm happy for you. But this does not mean you can extrapolate how anyone else will feel.<P>Paintbox, I am more than willing to help you through this, off-board, so that you don't have to deal with this. Please e-mail me if you would like my help. You should not have to deal with this at this difficult time. No one knows your heart but you.<BR>

Just speaking from my own point of view here, I had an abortion 29 years ago,as a teenager. I cried for years,felt badly for the choice I had to make.I realize now that, while I wish I hadn't had to do what I did, I am now,and have been for many years, in acceptance of that choice. <BR>I always feel for anyone in that position of hopelessness but we choose in our lives. <BR>And, ultimately, My God will judge me as He will judge us all.And when that day comes, I will accept His judgement. I do not accept the judgements of other humans, as they have not the right. We are not Divine. We are Human.<P>Paintbox, you do what's right for you now. It's terrible to be in this position, even without pregnancy to complicate matters. Love your H thru this. When his fog lifts, he will do the right thing.

Why oh Why oh Why won't you see that we - the "pro-lifers" are NOT judging anyone! We are NOT trying to take away anyone's choice!! <P>If anything - you - the "pro-choicers" are judging us and you are trying to take away our right to disagree with anyone's choice to have an abortion! How hypocritical is that??<P>I do not now - nor do I ever expect to be in this poor woman's shoes. However, I - and many others who have posted here - know what it is like to be in the emotional trauma that an A brings. We are simply suggesting that she wait before making a life and death decision! Which is advice I believe that I have read many times on this forum. Wait - don't make a decision now. That is all. Simple isn't it? But YOU have to turn it into a pro-life - pro-choice battle! <P>Paint - if you are still here amongst all this hyperbolic rhetoric - please feel free to do what you want without my - or anyone else's judgment. And if you would like to email me - you are free to do that also. psalmistforgod@hotmail.com.<P>Be blessed dear ones in the fight, and . . .<P>Be God's!!!<BR><P>------------------<BR>"For I know the plans I have for you - plans to prosper you - plans for good and not evil to give you a hope and a future" Jer. 29:11

<B>Paintbox</B>,<BR>You haven't posted in a couple of days, but maybe you're still lurking.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paintbox:<BR><B><BR>Anyway - my marriage. My husband is still adamant that he wants a divorce. He says that he wants to have love in his life again - and not with me.<P>...Anyway, despite my assurances that I wasn't really like that, and was a totally different person when I was out with my girlfriends, he firmly believes that it has gone too far to be repairable, he simply does not love me any more and never will.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>He is almost certainly still in the affair and will use the time away from you to see the OW. You cannot believe anything he says right now. Unfortunately, that also includes statements he has made about whether he has had sex with her. When a WS wants time "by themselves" it almost always really means time with the OP.<P>It's true he doesn't feel love for you now, but <B>not</B> necessarily true that he never will.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>I have been trying desperately to hang on to him, and all it's really doing is backing him into a corner and making him feel even more suffocated. So, he will be getting an apartment with my blessing after this week in the hotel, and I will get on with my life to the best of my ability. <P>...I am also making myself think of all the advantages to being 'single' again, like regaining control of the TV remote and being able to have a cat. (he hates cats).<P>I did buy 'His needs, Her needs' today - even if it's no good for this relationship, at least I'll have a head start on the next one <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well, WSs tend to say they feel suffocated when the BS wants to work on the relationship. No, you can't control them and it's good to be somewhat independent and not needy, but it sounds like you're giving up way too easily.<P>Every situation is unique, but I'm going to assume that your situation is like the majority of affairs and comment accordingly.<P>1) His affair will last less than two years, probably a lot less.<BR>2) If you Plan A--avoid lovebusters, learn to meet his ENs as much as he will let you, and concentrate on becoming a better you, he'll see you as desirable to return to when the affair falls apart.<BR>3) He won't show you much love until that happens, but will notice consistent changes in you if you do a good Plan A.<BR>4) If the affair lasts another 6 months or so, you'll probably have to go to Plan B for a time until the affair ends. It may not last that long, however.<BR>5) After the affair ends if you've been doing a good Plan A he'll fall back in love with you.<BR>6) Eventually, if you follow the Marriage Builders principles, you can have a better marriage than ever before.<P>Thats the typical situation, anyway. So, it won't be easy, but you can probably have a restored marriage that is better than ever before. That will only happen <B>if</B> you read, reread and follow the principles.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>We can only base our decisions on what is right for us at this precise moment in time - no-one can ever know whether that decision will still be the right one in the future.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>That assumes that there is no higher standard than that which we deem to be right for us. If you are a person of faith I hope you will pray sincerely with an open mind before making any final decisions. If not it would seem a good time for you to give faith a try .<P>One other comment. <I>His Needs Her Needs</I> is great, but <I>Surviving an Affair</I> would be even more applicable in your situation. I'd also suggest you immediately read <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5525_qa.html" TARGET=_blank>this link on surviving infidelity</A> from this site.<P>Good luck, I hope you'll post again. If on the other hand you are too intimidated by the last couple of pages of this thread you are welcome to email me at smmcse@yahoo.com. I'll try to help as best I can.<P>Steve

Do any senior members have some advice for paintbox, based on the MB concepts?<BR>Paintbox, I don't have any experience with pregnancy, and I don't pretend to. <BR>Perhaps the best thing is to book an appointment with one of the Harleys. They might bring some clarity to your situation.<BR>Best of luck!!!<BR>Hugs,<BR>Robyn

thank you, StillHers. I posted before I saw your considered reply.<BR>Robyn

Our community has a Crisis Pregnancy Center, where they guide women in making these very difficult, critical decisions. Maybe you could see if there is one in your area. I agree with those here who have encouraged you to not make such an irreversible decision in the midst of this other trauma. ((((((paintbox))))))<P>------------------<BR>"Love always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres." 1 Corinthians 13:7

stillhers,<BR> Thankyou for an answer that paint was looking for, she just found out a horrible truth and needed a plan. HAS ANYONE NOTICED PAINT IS NO LONGER HERE?<P>------------------<BR>L.

Yes, and I think that's too bad.

I agree. I think she came here for help and got judgmentalism and platitudes from people who don't know her.<P>Think about that, folks. What have you really accomplished?

I believe she came here and received the best advice anyone could offer....from both sides of the issue. It's a shame that it has become a crime to share an honest opinion and offer someone heartfelt advice. I've yet to find someone who is pro-choice who respects my <B>choice</B> to be pro-life. <P>This is not the first time that there have been hotly debated situations here with strong opinions on both sides....that is part of life. But let's please not get ugly and personal about it. I respect the right of everyone here who is pro-choice to voice their opinion. I ask that same respect for my views. Now, can we please get back to working as a team regardless of our views on abortion?<P>------------------<BR>"They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." Isaiah 40:31