Invictus, your message was a very timely one for me! I'm pleased to hear you are finding a way to navigate, day to day, through a very tough & unusual circumstance. I have found that one of the greatest assets anyone can bring to a relationship, whether recovered, in trauma, etc., is confidence. When you have no confidence, you lose sight of what you need to be happy. You stop listening to the voice inside. Even though we are influenced by those whom we love, it's important to remember that we are ultimately responsible for how we react...But I have to say...on some days, so much easier said than done!<P>I would like to talk about telling the truth. I believe that my BF has something he needs to share with me before we marry. I think he has to tell me that a betrayal occurred, involving him and a female friend of ours. If you have followed my posts, you will have seen that JL especially has given me some perspective on the issue: I am not yet married, so in many ways, the "betrayal" is certainly not what married posters have to deal with...still hurts, though! <BR>When I look at things through the eyes of my BF...I'd have a terrible time telling me the truth!! After all, from his perspective, what is there to gain? I could leave him, distrust him forever, hate this female friend, be deeply hurt, change how I treat him. All he has to "gain" would be...an honest engagement, leading up to marriage. We all KNOW how valuable that really is! It's the most important thing any of us can have. But from his side, I can see his hesitation.<BR>The truth is, no, we were not even engaged at the time of the incident. Yes, it has hurt me, but I am ready to examine my own behaviour, and his. I know I could make it on my own. I could make my life whatever I choose. I choose to examine this WITH him.<BR>Now, for those of you who have gotten your spouse to admit to a betrayal, how on earth did you do it? I imagine that I will have to make him feel very safe. Back to post #1 (big circle), what I really want is some proof of either inappropriate behaviour on the part of the "friend", or inappropriate behaviour on the part of my BF, who supposedly wanted a monogamous relationship with me. Not to accuse, not to hold over anyone, just to move forward and grow.<BR>I am afraid to table just my "suspicions" and half-heard conversations. I have read in this forum how deeply ingrained the denial instinct is.How easy it would be for him to reassure me and deny everything. I have brought this to the table calmly, two times before. He denied even being aware of this person, and was very concerned that I was so upset, as I never react to other women in such a sad, anxious manner...was it PMS? Stress? Smack!!<BR>I want to hold his hand and tell him that we should go into marriage understanding each other's needs, and even mistakes. I want him to feel safe, because I am ready to express my reaction constructively. What else should I do?<P>Thank you for bearing with the long post!!<P>XO<BR>Robyn

Hi, Robyn. You are so right to seek the full truth.<P>I am a WS who confessed because I loved my H and couldn't stand withholding the truth any longer...OM had power over me and wouldn't let me go..He sure disappeared fast when I e'd him to say I was confessing.<P>I denied things when H approached me...but I was still involved at the time. Sounds like this is different. <P>I don't know if you can force a confession. All I know is that my H made it so safe for me. I decided to risk everything (since I had been "gambling" our marriage and ministry anyway and wanted to be clean and free and truly loved) by telling. I had no idea if I'd be out on my ear or what. <P>H forgave me, let me cry, let me talk about whatever he could handle..he can handle more now and somethings we agreed are not necessary to discuss..at least for the time being. <P>If your BF has betrayed you and can't be honest now, you shouldn't marry him however deeply you love him. I'm sure you know that and that's what is troubling you.<P>Just assure him you will make it safe...you are strong, ready to hear the whole truth and need to so that you can marry in peace and great hope for your new life together.<P>That's what I hope will help you. Thinking of you.<P>------------------<BR>Fresh Start

I told my H that whatever he had to tell me couldn't possibly be worse than what I had already imagined, and I was right!<P>Also - I promised him that no matter what he told me - as long as he told me the whole truth and repented of his actions - I would not divorce him. I reassured him of my love for him - my devotion to the relationship - my commitment to seeing him through this process and to healing and coming out on the other side, and also to my desire to forgive him.<P>It was then that confession came forth. I think he felt safe - so he told all. <P>Believe me - it wasn't easy at all to hear! But I am so very glad that the truth is out, because it has given us a new place to start!<P>Be blessed in your search for truth, and . . .<P>Be God's!!!<P><P>------------------<BR>"For I know the plans I have for you - plans to prosper you - plans for good and not evil to give you a hope and a future" Jer. 29:11

Robyn,<P>You have received some very good advice from the women above. But I have a question for you. How will you know the truth when you hear it??<P>Will you know it only if it agrees with what you think happened? Will you know it if he looks in your eyes and tells you nothing happened? Will you know it only if it is bad news, that something did happen?<P>Robyn, I agree with you completely about needing honesty, but how do you know that you are not getting it now?<P>Permit me to offer something a little different and perhaps the ladies here can take this idea and make it something useful. My suggestion is that you become honest with your BF.<P>Tell him how obsessed you are over this. Tell him of all of the checking up you have done. Tell him how, although you two weren't engaged, you feel it is a betrayal. Tell him your need for honesty on this matter. Tell him how if it is indeed the case you plan to forgive him (This will be by the way a hugh LB, since he hasn't admitted anything.) Tell him how you would like to get this out of your mind and settled no matter what happened.<P>In short, if you want honesty you need to give honesty. That is my suggestion. I fear that even if nothing did happen you will never accept that answer. Perhaps people more knowledgeable than me (That would be you Freshstart and BeGods ) can help.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Thank you all from the bottom of my heart for such considered replies. You have all given me much to think about. One thing is clear. People need to feel safe when they communicate within a relationship. I feel that the near future will present me with many opportunities to talk, as my BF and I discuss our impending marriage and what it means to each of us. If this is not the right person for me, than this year will show me that, if I am willing to be open-minded. At this point, I do feel very blessed at how well matched we are.<BR>How will I know the truth when I hear it? Have I opened myself to the possibility that the truth may be very good news? Until your post, JL, I hadn't thought of good news as a possibility! I suppose I want an explanation most of all for the comments this other woman has made when she thought I was out of earshot. Either something has occurred, or my BF has to know that someone out there does not have friendly, supportive intentions toward the relationship. If my "pre-forgiving" him is indeed LB behaviour, then to do so may be preemptive and foolish on my part. I sense, JL, that you are disappointed that I can't make the mental shift past this situation on my own. I have always been such a happy, open and sensible person that I too, am disappointed!!<P>I feel very supported by this forum, and I'll never be able to show how deeply I appreciate it. My prayers are with those who are hurting.<BR> <BR>Robyn

Robyn,<P>There you go making "disrespectful" judgments. <P>You said <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I sense, JL, that you are disappointed that I can't make the mental shift past this situation on my own. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>See, Robyn, I am a scientist. The very first thing a scientist should ask himself, is if I do this research how will I know if I get an answer. What constitutes a valid answer (negative or possitive). Worse, if you do the kind of work I do you learn another very important fact. When you ask nature a question you usually get one of two answers: NO, or MAYBE. Very rarely do you get an unvarnished YES.<P>Hence, my warning to you. Don't prejudge the answer and have a plan as to how you will know the honest answer when you hear it. For you may already have it and not recognize it. <P>So what you are getting is a "little scientific" training, in the process of problem solving and "fact" finding. <P>God Bless,<P>JL

Ok, I'm taping that one onto my Mac. You are a scientist, whereas I am an artist! Perhaps this partly explains some of my tendencies. I am smiling broadly as I read your post. And I certainly meant no disrespect! I have come to value your counsel and, like many "students", want to demonstrate some progress and growth, that is all.<BR>That last piece of advice has many, many applications. Thank you, it's a gift.<BR>Robyn

Robyn,<P>I know you meant no disrespect. However, if you read the materials here, that kind of supposition is called a "disrespectful" judgement and we all do it. It can be quite harmful to a marriage and the scary thing is we do it without realizing it.<P>Artist??? Well now! You seem awfully analytical about this marriage thing. A good trait in my book. As for being a student, I surely hope you don't think of me as the teacher. One thing you will learn here and you will certainly learn in marriage, is no one as that all incompassing knowledge, one expects a teacher to have. I surely don't.<P>In any event, I hope I did help some. Have a good day.<P>JL

JL: We are all students and teachers, are we not? I value your responses because I recognize that you have created a happy, 25 year marriage. I am also a new student of MB principles, and am learning to recognize how best to apply them. I read the material on this website for a couple of months before joining in the discussions. So take credit for the example you set and the counsel you give. You phrase things with wit, accuracy and compassion without being coddling. I think you have taught me a thing or two. In my book, that's a good thing. <BR>I was very interested in the 'Giver' and the 'Taker' the Dr. Harley describes. I have acted with this awareness for a couple of months, and I think it has strengthened a number of my relationships, but especially with bf. Any views or reactions to the Giver and Taker theory?<BR>I have also learned to recognize when bf is sharing with me. When he began his new job, I shared my congratulations and enthusiasm with him. I asked him many questions about the work, his favourite aspects of the new job, if his co-workers are interesting, etc. As a result, he comes home each night and talks to me about his work world, sometimes for an hour. I relish these conversations. I am meeting his need for conversation. <BR>I know that my engagement will teach me many things. I offer support and prayers to everyone who is having a not-so-strong evening tonight. <BR>Smiles,<BR>Robyn <P>

You asked what I thought about the giver and the taker. Well, I cannot deny that fear and greed are great motivators. Your basic taker mode. But I cannot deny that people die to save other peoples lives. They sacrifice for their children and their spouses. Your basic giver.<P>Seems to me pretty elemental really. We all have the capacity to exhibit both traits. The bible preaches this constantly in many forms. So I think it is so and the data supports that thinking. <P>Now let me offer you a different perspective with regard to you listening to your H. I am sure it helps him to be able to talk to you about his work. But what you may not realize is that it is helping you as well. This is the hardest part of marriage, and the subject of books like "love languages". <BR>Just when you think you are giving, your are taking. Just when you are taking, you are actually giving. Then again when you are taking, you are taking. And sometimes when you are giving, you are really giving.<P>Are you confused yet?? The biggest problem most marriages seem to have and certainly it was the case in mine is that people don't realize when people are showing love. They expect to see it how they were raised to see it. But there are sooo many ways to show love.<P>Take for example your situation. You are listening to your BF and you are showing him your love by listening to him right? Well, maybe but it shouldn't be that hard to listen to BF should it? Here is a really interesting thing. He is very likely showing you love by talking about it to you. How is that? He is probably opening up to you like he wouldn't do to anyone else. He loves you and so he trusts you, therefore, you get to hear all of the details, yawn. <P>But do you see my point? If you only expect to see love in a certain way, you can miss a lot of things, mostly how much your spouse does love you. <P>That doesn't mean that you wouldn't still like to hear an occasional ILY. But it isn't the only way to say it. Men, usually take the tack of bringing in money to support the family, as showing love. In this day and age they aren't the only ones bring in the money, so life gets confusing for them. Women traditionally show love by cooking meals and keep the home a good place to come to. Now days, women don't cook often and when they do it is often a microwave dinner (even men can do that ). How does a W show love these days? It is complicated.<P>My suggestion is look at everything the other person does for you as an act of love. It usually is and you will be a lot happier person for it. I think this is more true today, because in many respects men and women don't "need" each other as much for the surface acts of marriage. Therefore, almost anything can be done by the other spouse. So what is special? I think that it is in the attitude and how you interpret love from your spouse. So IMHO, use the broadest possible interpretation of your BF behavior as acts of love.<P>Must go, just some things to think about.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Good thoughts !<BR>Last night, my bf phoned me from a men's club where he went after work. I have no issue with this - never have. When he came home, we had a snack and talked. <P>He said that his friends were surprised that he would call me from the club (it was late, most women react adversely to these boys' nights out). He told them that we don't hide things from each other, that he had no reason not to call me. He told me that my personality encourages open communication and truthfulness.<P>These comments were especially poignant to me as I continue to work through feelings of betrayal. Today I feel very connected, and this turn of mood makes me consider what role anxiety has played in processing these painful suspicions.<P>I feel no shame in allowing the possiblity that I have anxiety. <P>Just some thoughts back...<P> <P>Robyn