I read your post. Thank you for your insight. You are so right about God being there to take care of you. Deep in my heart I feel that God is not going to allow my H to hurt me again. Either by making him the person he needs to be, or by showing me the path I'm meant to take.<P>How long has it been since you discoverd their affair? My husband kept telling me that the A had nothing to do with the love he had for me. I cannot digest this, it's almost like telling me that 2 plus 2 equals 5. Sometimes he gets angry and tells me that I am not listening to him, that I hear only what I want to. <P>That's not entirely true. I can only take the information he gives me along with his actions and try to reason it out. At this time they don't make any sense.<P>I have finally begun to do the things I did before surgery and the disclosure. I am back to exercise and I started to tan. May as well feel as good about myself as I can. I agree with your philosophy. I am a good person and there is someone out there who will want me if my husband does not.<P>Your point about the children was so very true, the relationship is the foundation of their life, without it what they've known will change drastically. IT has to come first for them just as well.<P>Take care, I hope your days get easier, I appreciate your thoughts they made a lot of sense to me.

k9love:<P>Thanks for the reply. My days are getting easier and less painful - I had a painful weekend from June 9-12, dday was June 12 (but was denied), (oh, my, the things I saw on Sunday, and my H. and I went back to our bedroom and had a fight). then I believe it was June 20. We had hardly fought in 13 years, and we went through he_ _. Looking back, sometimes, I wish I could have done somethings differently. It is too painful at the time to think rationally. I guess I am beginning to figure out my H. being upset was letting loose of the lover. The book After the Affair is really helping me out with all of this - trying to make sense of it all. If you have not read this book - I do recommend it. It has given me piece of mind. I have learned from being here in this forum it takes 2-3 years (a quote from someone), and I don't doubt it abit. My H. has gotten civil, and when I pop in unexpectedly - he acts pleased/surprised. He has started talking to me in the same manner he use to - so I know some things are coming back. Ours is slow. I can only surmise because my H. won't let himself feel feelings. I was reading sections in After the Affair, and it is so right on. I was thinking about the "no contact letter". I was feeling how I had every right to demand it. I really try, really try, to put her out of my head. I can pray that I know what is going on, and that my H. hasn't talked to her since last July. She was in a different state, & visited us; then we moved, late June far away. He promised not to give her his new work number, but she tracked him down & called him. Oh, the anger. I don't want her contacting him at all - in any way. Like Dr. Harley says, no contact. Plus After the Affair explains it - how you cannot devote yourself to your marriage if you are emotionally tied to someone else. If anybody thinks you can - I think they must be crazy. I guess just the biggest revelation is learning how we must realize that we need to change our thinking to "it could happen" instead of it "would never happen". <P>Anyway, you can A. proof your marriage, and I plan to help my marriage. I advise to read & try to figure it out.<P>Thanks for your thoughts. Hope you have a nice day tomorrow. Hang in there. <P>later, after shock

You know it is funny, I had read the book "His Needs, Her Needs", How to Affair Proof your marriage, six months before my H had one.<P>I was following the guidlines in the book, I was meeting his needs, Mine were not being met, of the ten I think he was taking care of 4.<P>About the only way I know to A proof my marriage at this time is to know what he's doing and with whom. Not the best way to do it I know. Suggestions?

k9love:<P>That is a good question. I believe this explaination is in After the Affiar - whereby the person who is giving all is not receiving. k - to "get" someone to change their behavior you have to change yours. If you are hurting (being torn up inside) this is extremely hard to do. You have to be selfish (in a way) and do things for yourself. Like I said, I know this can be very hard, to pull into yourself, so you give the other person a chance.<P>Follow, Dr. Harley's advice. Remember, they say, one person can save a marriage. This is hard advice for me to give, as I still do not do some of the things I should, I can't bring myself to do it (clean up some stuff in our bedroom).<P>Reread Dr. Harley's columns, and see if you can shed some light to help you.<P>I am tired tonight. Looks like alot of new posts came in. See if my light advice helps - I'll talk to you soon.<P>After shock

Aftershock:<P>Thanks for your advice. I know I have to change, but I really don't think he is going to like the change in me. I know this because I have begun the task. <P>I am very bitter and feel very abused by him. I am not allowing him to "put responsibility" onto me anymore. I have a full time job, I take college courses, and I have a home to take care of.<P>Since I am so good at juggling 20 different things at one time he has never had a problem adding things to my list. Now, instead of anger toward him, I simply say No, I do not have time. This is angering him, but I was literally killing myself trying to help him with things that pertained to "his" job. As it is he only works 3 hours a day at it. I was putting in 8.5 +++.<P>This change has been excellent for me, he complained that I didn't have a social life. I am starting to have more free time now to do things with friends. Guess who is not real happy about that. <P>I know change is the only way to be happy for myself, but he was very happy with the way things were.<P>I know I can't change him. I am changing me, I like me now. I am looking at life as Live it now cause you don't have any guarantees. I am not misbehaving, simply enjoyin it.<P>Thanks for your post.

k -<P>How can I put this? While you "change", don't go so far another way he gets neglected. Remember, Dr. Harley's I promise: I promise to care for you, ... all the way to ..."spend time with you".<P>My H. and I were very close, then we got the internet in 1997, he spent time playing, nights & weekends, if he wasn't working. Then I began volunteer work, I devoted myself to that. I spent alot of time I probably shouldn't have. About the time I began to say I was going to quit activities with the groups, my H. was saying he knew he spent too much time at work and he was going to start coming home earlier - I found out I was really sick - what was wrong with me for about 8 years, and had made me really sick for 2 1/2 had to be taken care of by an operation - that was April 12 last year. Not much was going on at that time, I'm not sure - I wish I could really pin point exactly when it happened. On June 9, the OW and her D came to visit for the weekend. I was very excited to have them come, then Sat night, as I saw my H. sitting on our couch, with "her" - I saw something - her arm behind him on the couch, turned, and in his personal space. OW looked far too happy. They took the dogs for a walk (not asking me to go) they just left. Next day, he was showing her the picture album (pics of him growing up - his dad had made the album for me). He was extremely rude to me with her there. So I asked him to go back to our bedroom to talk. They were his friends, not mine, he said. Later we went to a sports bar, he monopolized to sit next to her (some other guys we knew came to party w/ her as they know her). On Monday, he showed OW and D, to the college. I called her cell phone, 2:30 in the afternoon. He said it wasn't that, we'd talk when he got home. I went through agony waiting for him to get home. I thought I was going crazy. I broke down on a neighbor's doorstep - thank God she was there. He finally got home - after we got the kids in bed - we finally talked. It wasn't until the following week, I caught him on AOL Instant Messenger, saying my love words (I use to say to him), to her. Caught, red handed. I knew it. I wish I could have backed up to see what else. I wish I would have kicked him off and typed something to her.<P>We went through alot of hell after that. We are almost at the 11 month mark, and things are getting better. We are spending more time together. He helps alot at home (I am lucky, I have someone who has always done things at home). We usually always go to bed together. I look at internet/mail stuff with him. I drop in on him at work. It did irritate him when he went on a business trip, and I called him, and he said that could have waited.<P>Anyway, what you should think about is spending time away from him beneficial, or will it drive a deep wedge between the two of you. Combat his requests with help from him, he should contribute. <P>Let me know. After shock<P>

You are right, it is so hard trying to figure out how much of me needs to be for Me and how much still needs to go to the relationship. It hurts so badly and it is so hard to self sacraficing. I feel that was the problem. I was too sacraficing. I'll keep you posted.<P>Thanks<P>I can understand your pain, it hurts when when a husband shows more attention to another woman, especially in front of his wife. Mine has been known to do this numerous times over the years.

k -<P>this gets very deep. but, why do people get married anyway? first, your vows, to love, honor, and obey, ... until death do us part. don't we get married to have our best friend with us, a companion, to mate and have children, and have our best friend with us when we're old. <P>so, what happens? you get married, then the S. is still spending time w/ buddies, and not with the other S. anyway, my H. spent time with the internet, and I with outside activities. Now, we spend time together - whether it is folding laundry, or doing errands. It is the quality time.<P>Have you read After the Affair? I am in the process of digesting this book. There are alot of very good points in it. I just know that "me" is very happy with my children, and my H. as my H. There is no question for me that I don't know who I am.<P>I know if you are hurting, you need to spend some alone time. All I can say - is - a divorce is alot worse, especially for what the children will go through. if the H. is not meeting expectations (emotional needs) now, both partners need to come full circle, to bring the marriage back into proper prospective.<P>off that track, I know there are alot of men out there that have to "flirt" right infront of their significant other - that really hurts. I don't have a man like that, I doubt I could survive if mine did. I think that is a deep seated condition that would have to go into counseling - if one S. did that. mine doesn't - it was just a night for me - that I saw this "family friend" too happy, especially in his personal space (later he told me he would let anyone in his personal space that he wanted to let in).<P>anyway, the family friend is gone, her parents are gone - they are gone from our life. cross the line, cross the line. my survival is my love for my husband, our home, and our children. we just celebrated our 14 anniv. - on February 14th. I know how much I love him.<P>take care, hope this helps with "me". so many people are searching for "more", instead of being happy with what they have. Also, read Passages of Marriage. <P>later, after shock

Thank you for your support. Spent time with my husband today, our son had a motocross race. Other than my son crashing and cracking his helmet (This child is going to make me old before my time) it was a beautiful day. We really had a good time being with each other.<P>I strongly believe that once a person feels secure and happy within themselves it tends to help the relationship as a whole. I am starting, today (got my RX for estrogen filled after being out for two days) to feel a lot better about me and the relationship as a whole.<P>He actually made plans with me today for going out of town. He is willing to meet me at least halfway on my work schedule, This is a positive!<P>Well, it's late, gotta hit the hay, thanks again. I am happy that you and your husband are working together for the whole.<P>14 years is a lot of time invested, I know I have 22.<P>Later

k -<P>i'm glad you had a good weekend - that's wonderful that your H. is making plans to go away for a weekend. We are too. We had a good weekend too. I encouraged him to go work out on Sat & we went with our girls to this art festival, Sun he ran for 20 min., he watched some movies w/ the girls Friday night, and did a work related item, which I typed Sunday night. We folded laundry, and he did some ironing for me - while I typed<P>It sounds like you are I are about the same age. I just cannot believe how many new posts are coming on MB - just found out. Guess I should ask if they would open up a new catagory - so we could jump over there. I haven't heard anything from Shocker17 - she hasn't replied to my last thread.<P>Thanks for the encouragement. I've read here and there, and haven't put your story totally together. I can't believe that in about 5 weeks it will be my one yr. anniv. for D-day. I did not know about MB - or what you are suppose to do. I called her (long distance), and asked her what she thought she was doing - she told me she wasn't doing anything. She told me she cared about my husband. I think anybody that gets involved with a married person, is a stinker. I do not want my husband to talk to her ever again. How can someone care about "your husband" if they go after them?<P>I ordered 3 of the Harley books, and The Promise mug. I hope they come today - if not - they will probably be here tomorrow. I am so excited to get them into my hands. <P>Thanks for writing me. I am so happy you are happy.<BR>after shock

Aftershock:<P>I turned 40 this year. None of the other milestones ever seemed to bother me but boy 40 sure did. I was obsessed with "getting Older", the wrinkles etc. <P>The OW was seven years "older" than me. Talk about a shock to me. I was convinced my husband wanted something young and built like a S* House. She was neither. In fact we are both comparatively the same size and shape.<P>My D-Day was Feb 6 of this year. My H is still not living directly in the house but we are seeing each other regularly and trying to live as normally as possible. Maybe once when school lets our we'll change our living arrangements.<P>Well, I have a LOT of work to do before I head for bed tonight, take care and I hope you have a wonderful day tomorrow.<P>

k - <P>my husband and I are still together. the "real" d-day (night I walked into the computer room), after our discussion, I said "come on back to bed". he's been there ever since (that's what I told OW "he's still in my bed"), maybe the separation like that for you two will do it - must be lonely though - I sure do not want him out of our bed. couple of times I've said, maybe you'd like to sleep on the other bed, he said if I wanted him to, but he'd rather sleep in our bed - so thank god, he's still there. my girls are 9 and 7, conceived the first one at 36 (so you figure it out - ha). <P>my boods came today and the mug. i'm was so excited, I sat on my bed and read - they are great. is your husband reading any of the harley's books. I found a really good section in Surviving an Affair - about exactly why affairs happen. it is amazing - I racked my brain, we saw a counselor from Oct - Dec --- this book has done me better to read three pages than the counselor ever did - no such answers from the bimbo counselor - i guess they want to keep their pockets lined - if they give you answers then you won't keep coming back. <P>gotta go - I'm tired tonight - after shock

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with you. My husband and I went together for the first two sessions, then he refused to go back, said a stranger who did not know us or anything about our relationship was not going to help.<P>Unfortunately, I too feel the same way now. I went 8 to ten more times by myself after that. I stopped going last week. The books are much more helpful than he was. He did at least recommend Harleys work to read.<P>I didn't really like the answers he did give. He felt that given the type of personality my husband had, he probably been involved in affairs before. I do not know, as I have no proof. I realize sometimes things are said and you may like hearing them, but without proof of it I can't be sure of anything. I too wonder, but am not sure.<P>Anyway, as you said the money plus the fact that I felt worse after seeing him made me decide to stay involved with this forum and read everything I can.<P>No, my husband is not a reader, reads nothing at all. We are so different in soooo many ways. It was this difference that helped build what we have. His strengths are my weaknesses and vice versa. This affair hurt soooooo much, I was too caught up in doing for him I truly believed he could never, would never do anuthing to jepardize what we had.<P>Even while his A was ongoing he was telling me how much he respected my trust, how lucky we were because so many of our friends were divorcing, how good a marriage we had, 22 years of it. This is what is so hard, He was telling me this while doing the opposite, makes it real hard to truly believe him anymore.<P>I guess this will be my biggest obstacle, he's concerned that I will never love him like I used to. He's right, that total devotion, self sacraficing, live for him attitude is gone. Truly, it is better for me. Maybe for both of us in the long run.<P>I have read the book you mention, Now I am reading After the Affair. Yes, I get more answers from these than I ever did my counselor. I am sure there are some good ones out there but I haven't found them yet.<P>Gotta go, telephones ringing

k -<P>i guess the burning question we all have is "why"? and when you read about emotional needs in Surviving An Affair, you can see why - i sure hope you are analyzing what emotional needs your H. needs. my H and I filled out the en questionnaires - i just looked at my H's 5 most important. i have to adjust my thinking to what he feels is important - to just think that life was happy and carefree, and i thought our marriage was great - then boom. i presented my H with the books last night - it was a last effort of distrust - because we just paid $2,000 for a new transmission for my car - and i really should not have spent the money - but i felt we really, really needed these books - if spending $57 - saves us another marriage counselor - that would be good. what is a counselor to anyone? do they really help? know what i mean? i have one lined up from the minirth-myers network (christian), if we go again.<P>we had a good talk sometime about 2 weeks ago -( he was miffed at the new books )- our talk was really positive - but i'm still not getting from him what i need to hear. <P>what is truly amazing is how close we once were - and how this was created - why don't they come and talk to you - they just find someone else to meet those emotional needs. that's why i find surviving an affair so close to my heart - because it is telling me exactly what happened. I can't believe - finally - how Dr. Harley can actually tell me what happend - and why - and I believe him. Except i have a much different problem - my H does not want to make love, and i do.<P>this whole mess sometimes - you want to just say forget it, and walk away from all of it - then you snap the other way and are ready to fight about getting your spouse back.<P>i'm in the blues right now. i can't seem to want to get in there and clean up my house (it's not filthy - just alot of stuff I need to go through), but i just can't start working on it. he wants me to (his 2nd EN), and i can't tackle it. and i am so far from it right now. my H puts up with alot, but i put up with him not meeting my EN - and it hurts - atleast now, i know why and what is going on.<P>i think God intended for me to find MB - i had to search out (i contacted focus on the family, and minirth-myers). it hurts so much, though. i just never thought i'd be going through this. my H does not call it an A. he doesn't see that telling another woman on the internet, my love words to him, was an affair. at least, when he sent her a post card on vacation, and i blew, he could see that he would not be able to keep her friendship. the gall of her to look my H up and call him at work. i would really like to tell her off again - and to think we'd been family friends (her parents first met my H). <P>when my H and i had another talk, he told me he now knows what the warning signs are that another woman will make moves on you. the more you can get your husband to bear his sould to you the better you are.<P>well, i better go, i am in the dumps, and i need to get away from this computer, and go do something else.<P>thanks for being there. after shock

k -<P>where are you? aftershock

Sorry Aftershock, It has been a busy hectic week. You know I have come to the conclusion that no marriage is perfect. I believe we put up with things because we feel that "love" can supercede petty differences.<P>Now though with the A as part of our background I am not able to handle these "differences" as I once did. I always had the attitude of well, I'm not going to put a ripple in this marriage over this, it's not that important. Why is it when faced with an Affair that these little things suddenly gain magnitude?<P>My husband had a PA and since coming to MB I have learned that the so called friendships he's had with other women are called EA. Wallah, what a lucky person I am. Of course my husband does not see it this way. If he has not had sex with another woman he's done nothing wrong. Bull poop.<P>Have you considered getting outside help to help with the housework? I did this for a while it really helped. It is expensive, but I found the counselors to be more so.<P>I work two jobs and my house is the last thing to get my attention. Actually, my husband and I own a business and the work load he didn't want, such as ALL the paperwork had become my responsibility. After the disclosure I basically told him where to stick it. After all he had all the time in the world to run off and see her because I was here at home taking care of everything.<P>That has changed, I turned over a large part of the responsibilities he had put on me back to him. He has more than enough time during the day to do it. He does not work any shifts to speak of. He oversees. Really tough job.<P>I work full time eight hours a day in addition to everything else. I set boundaries and I sure am happier, he complains and pouts about it at times, but oh well.<P>As a person I think you can give too much, and I think my husband was a person who had no problem taking too much.<P>This cute little scenario has changed. My brain now understands that doing for him did not ensure love for me. Quite the contrary. <P>Oh the things we learn. Well, I shall sign off, sorry I had not gotten back to you.<P>Best wishes

k -<BR>I guess every marriage is different - we are all different - thanks for the reply - I am going to make this short today - can you believe all the new threads and posts? I can't believe how many new ones. Some seem to not even get posts to. I am now finished with SAA and H is reading Surviving... now. I am on His Needs, Her Needs, and H uses The Promise mug - we both use it back and forth. I did not get any Mother's Day cards from my H (and kids - because H gets the cards for the kids), of course kids had made stuff at school. I told H how it hurt me that he did not get a card - he apologized. He is beginning to be a little more affectionate. His big EN is clutter in the house - I can't seem to make time for. My H has cards at work for me - but he says he doesn't have the feelings back to give them to me - I just don't know when he will start the feelings back - I think they are coming back - it feels like it - but where are the cards - etc. We'll see after he reads SAA and HNHN. I am going to go - I need to work on dinner & the house. Talk to you later, aftershock

I hope things go better for yo tomorrow. I am having such a hard time. My Husband can be so sweet when he wants to. Mother's day etc. he goes all out. I can't understand what went wrong. We were so perfect together. Well it is late I went out with a girlfriend, her birthday tonight, it's late and I am tired, talk to you later.<P>

Aftershock:<P>Was reading your post with K9Love and we have alot in common. I will be 40 also and my H just turned 40...so was his A a midlife crisis?? Anyways...my H also started his A because he needed to talk to someone and supposedly I was also busy running our kids around, tending to the house, etc. etc. He found out he needed to talk with ME and not her. I asked him why he didn't come to me and he said he doesn't really know but that he shut me out and turned to her but that he STILL LOVED ME THROUGHOUT THE A!!! I've asked him how could you have loved me and been with her. He said he just did but that we had a distance...because we weren't communicating!!! He ended the A with her but they stayed friends until this past December when I found a note from her. Since then he's stopped all communication and is now talking to me, and as he says ONLY ME. I didn't realize how we had gotten ourselves so busy that we just stopped really connecting (communicating). I read After the Affair, Surviving the Affair, Infidelity, His needs, Her Needs. They all hit home especially After the Affair....I think it's one of the best books. I am at the part of forgiveness. My H keeps asking me will I ever be able to forgive him and according to the book it sort of comes naturally when they prove themselves to you. So...for the most part he is really trying. He is starting to help me around the house because he says he realized I wasn't available to him because I was so busy doing everything else and she wasn't the answer. Do you keep thinking of OW...I wake up out of a sound sleep and there she isin my mind!! It's been 10 weeks now and I am feeling better but she still haunts me. Am I not right that the thoughts are always there....it eats you up inside. My H said he was a jerk for doing this to me because it has affected my MIND...I used to keep a nice house, etc. Now...I don't really care about my house, I forget to get milk, bread....my brain is mush!!!<BR>I've even forgot to pay some bills...but he has stepped in and is trying to give me support with everything. I have to throw a graduation party for my 14 yr. old daughter and I pray I can keep my brain together for her...she deserves it. <BR>I keep asking H...how he could have done this to US?? He keeps saying he was an idiot...and she meant nothing...and he should have turned to me but that she just was there....(kind of like a vulture) and took him in and just listened to him and built him up) said all those RIGHT THINGS.... So..now I'm trying so hard to be positive and tell him the right things...<P>I hope you and K9love are hanging in there. You both give me encouragement. I kept wondering how long this whole process of healing is going to take and it looks like it's going to be a year or more....WOW. <P>Let me end on a funny note...My H planned our whole date last night (something he hasn't done in years). We went out for dinner and then went and played some video games and just connected. It reminded me of when we dated in High<BR>School...it was fun. Well... a week ago I told him I was really feeling like I wanted to go and talk to OW because I know where she lives....H works with her but in separate departments. I told him I would just love to throw eggs at her house because I can't stand what she did to us!!<P>Well....he stopped off at the store and bought some eggs<BR>and after our date he accompanied me to do the NASTY<BR>egg tossing. I could see he felt very uncomfortable as<BR>I was tossing them out the window....but let me tell you<BR>it felt GREAT!!!! Afterwards...he told me that he wants<BR>to prove it's over and that he is here for me and if this<BR>would make me feel better he was all for it. I told him<BR>it was either throw eggs or find her and push her face into<BR>the concrete!!! DO YOU EVER HAVE THOUGHTS OF WANTING TO HARM THE OW....OR AM I OUT OF CONTROL!!! Anyways.... I <BR>truly enjoyed our date and it ended on such a HIGH!!!<P>God Bless to both of you and I've enjoyed reading your<BR>replies.....they seem similar in ways...ages, etc.<P>SHOCKER17

Shocker & k - <P>I know we sound about the same, I connected to your posts - I can't seem to get into other areas. My brain only takes so much overload, and I have to stop. I find I process only so much well. I've tried to keep some new posters spirits up - because I know how it feels - but I didn't get into much while you were gone Shocker.<P>I have a really, really hard time going out and socializing like I use to. I guess I can't face that (it is not that they know), that is explained in Surviving an Affair (SAA), and is a common symptom of the A.<P>Dr. Harley knows it too well. <P>later, aftershock