I've just come back to the website today after a lot of thought. I don't know why I'm back to be honest and I don't know whether I'll post again or not - I just thought it was a bit rude to leave people wondering where I was and what was happening, especially those who were trying to help me in a sensible, self-controlled and down-to-earth way. I went through with the termination, it's over, I'm feeling very relieved. I have my own personal spiritual beliefs and will face any 'higher powers' involved in those beliefs when the time comes. I respect the beliefs of others, and as well as the abortion issue, felt very uncomfortable with people assuming that I held the same spiritual beliefs as themselves. End of subject (I hope).<P>My marriage situation is starting to improve a bit. I now have a relative staying with me for a couple of weeks to offer practical and emotional support, which is wonderful. My husband has finally admitted that he is still very confused and mixed up right now and I have given him 100% support in his decision to move to an apartment. I truly believe that he needs time alone to sort himself out and that it can only do good. I have made some firm decisions too. I told him that I am NOT going to move out of the house, that I am NOT going to agree to sell it and that I am NOT going to agree to a divorce at least for the next 6 months, if not longer. He took my decisions very well and even seemed a little relieved that I had forced him out of the hole he had dug himself into and given him time. We are getting on well together - no fights, no arguments. I hug him when I see him and we are talking as close friends. The best news that I have had is that things have already fizzled out with the OW and, completely on his own, he has made arrangements to avoid contacting her again. He has replaced her with another staff consultant and has also delegated the staffing to another colleague in his office, so that he doesn't even have to deal with the same staffing company any more. She has e-mailed him a few times, but he has told her to stop. He is also very keen to start building a relationship with our children, although I've suggested to him that it will be easier if he spends time with one child at a time. This is because I know that they will be vying for his attention if he has both of them! He agrees that this is the best idea. We went for a long walk together while my relative babysat for us and it was very pleasant - we were able to talk and laugh together again with no trace of resentment or bitterness. He knows that I still love him and that if he decides he wants to give our relationship another chance, then he will be welcomed back into our home - but I have also told him that he has to be sure of this decision and willing to work at it and that I am quite prepared for life on my own as well. He said that he couldn't promise anything - but at least he didn't say that it was hopeless! He has already invited us (me and the kids) to spend a day with him at the weekend!<P>Today I helped him pack and presented him with a photo display of our children to hang on the wall of his apartment, along with cards from us. He spends one last night here tonight, then he will come with a van tomorrow and load the few bits of furniture he is taking with him. It is painful, but I know I can cope with that. All I have to do now is to keep on 'making deposits' in his 'bank account' whenever I can - by being a friend to him, by helping him, by letting him know I care. Hopefully, fingers crossed, eventually I will have built up my account again, he will have sorted himself out and we can start re-building our marriage. I feel very strong, very calm, and I know that I am now in control of the situation rather than him - which is a good feeling! Wish me luck and I'll try and pop in from time to time to let you know how it's going.<BR>Best wishes to everyone, Paintbox

Paintbox:<P>I am glad you seem to be moving in the right direction. I wish you the best.<P>K-9

Paint,<BR> So glad your back, I am also glad for your relative babysitter, what a blessing. The friendship sounds good. If you decide to make it work you have a lot of work coming so rest now while you can and come here to post when your mad.<BR>Best of luck to you.<P>------------------<BR>L.

Hi Paintbox,<P>I'm glad you're back!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paintbox:<BR><B>I have my own personal spiritual beliefs and will face any 'higher powers' involved in those beliefs when the time comes. I respect the beliefs of others, and as well as the abortion issue, felt very uncomfortable with people assuming that I held the same spiritual beliefs as themselves. End of subject (I hope).<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>Given my own beliefs I hoped for a different decision, but I understand that no one wants to feel pushed into a decision by others. My own beliefs are based ultimately on my own faith. To assume that you would agree with my values on this issue without sharing those beliefs would be futile, so I chose to only encourage you to consider faith. I hope you continue to do so.<P>In any case, you've made your choice, and agree with it or not I will try my best to help you with what you came here for.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>My marriage situation is starting to improve a bit. I now have a relative staying with me for a couple of weeks to offer practical and emotional support, which is wonderful. My husband has finally admitted that he is still very confused and mixed up right now and I have given him 100% support in his decision to move to an apartment.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>If you read what I posted on the other thread you know that I was concerned about this being just a chance to be with the OW, but given what you wrote in the rest of your post perhaps your situation will be the exception. I do hope that you continue to get time with him to meet such ENs as he will let you.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>We are getting on well together - no fights, no arguments. I hug him when I see him and we are talking as close friends. The best news that I have had is that things have already fizzled out with the OW and, completely on his own, he has made arrangements to avoid contacting her again.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>Well, this sounds very hopeful, I only hope it's really true. I see from rereading the prior thread that you read about Plan A, which is what you need to focus on now. Some of what you write sounds like good progress in the relationship. Meeting ENs and doing a good Plan A usually works very well. However, it often does take significant time to make a major difference. I suspect that he's still in the state of <B>withdrawal</B>. You might wish to read Dr. Harley's article on <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3600_state.html" TARGET=_blank>Negotiating in the Three States of Marriage</A> if you have not yet done so.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>All I have to do now is to keep on 'making deposits' in his 'bank account' whenever I can - by being a friend to him, by helping him, by letting him know I care. Hopefully, fingers crossed, eventually I will have built up my account again, he will have sorted himself out and we can start re-building our marriage.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well, it sounds like you're doing a good job of trying to be available and meet his ENs without being overly needy or controlling, either of which would tend to be a lovebuster.<P>It's good that you're getting support and feel strong. Be aware that if this continues a while without much reciprocation on his part Plan A can be very emotionally draining. Keep doing things for yourself and reaching out for help. I don't mean to seem negative given the hopeful tone of much of what you've posted. I just know that it can be a long road.<P>You have made a good start, keep reading the articles and books. Then come here for help and encouragement in applying the concepts.<P>Take care,<P>Steve

Welcome back, Paintbox. I have been thinking of you and hoping you were OK. It sounds like you are.<P>It sounds like you are going right to Plan B without Plan A, but every situation is different, and it sounds like your methods are working for you.<P>I am sorry you didn't get the nonjudgmental support here you had hoped for, but I am still here to offer mine.<P>I feel optimistic about your situation. It reminds me a lot of another MB-er, Lora, who posts in the GQII forum.<P>Best of luck to you. Please keep us posted, and feel free to contact me anytime.

Oh bother, I'm on another dip in the rollercoaster again! It upset me again watching him move some of the furniture and his things out yesterday, I ended up shutting myself away in my bedroom - more tears! He was also upset that I was so upset and came up to give me a hug and talk things through. Then the blow came - although he's not actually seeing the OW in person, he admitted that he was still in contact with her via e-mail. I was so disappointed. This woman seems as though she is very, very clever and knows just how to manipulate a man, saying all the right things etc., and contacting him just at the right moments. I don't know how I can compete with her as it's just not in my nature to be dishonest or manipulative - haven't had much practice! The only hope I've got is that my relative had a chance to have dinner with him one evening, and a long talk, and has said that she thinks he is starting to be aware of her true nature - I only hope she's right.<BR>He rang me later that evening to ask me what clothes washing liquid he should buy! Really it's quite amusing because he has never, ever had to look after himself before and on one hand he's very excited and enthusiastic about it (latest comment from him was genuine excitement about buying an iron as he'd never had an iron before!!!!), but on the other hand he really hasn't got a clue and is heading for a big shock once the novelty wears off. My relative even had to help him make the bed because he didn't know where to put the valance sheet, or even what it was! If nothing else - living on his own will certainly make him a better person and I think he knows this is something he needs to work on. <P>I made the mistake of admitting to him that I was getting very sexually frustrated at the moment. We both know that this part of our marriage was always really good - but he says that he hasn't even thought about sex for the past few weeks as his mind is so crowded with other mixed up thoughts. It certainly wasn't a sex thing with the OW, in fact I still believe that it either hasn't happened at all with her, or maybe only the once. The problem was that I couldn't focus on exactly WHY it was the sex I was missing so much, so he's gone away with the wrong impression that I only want him for one thing, which isn't true! I've had time to think about it and realised that it was the feelings I got during love-making that were important - Firstly it was the only time I felt like a woman instead of a mother. I've always been a bit of a suppressed 'wild-child' - suppressed by the opinions of society, family commitments and even my husband. In bed I trusted my husband so much that I could let the 'real me' out and it was such a relief! It's a side of me that I find impossible to express to anyone else. Secondly, I have a deep distrust of men in general which stems from being attacked when I was about 11. Nothing sexual actually occurred, but this was only because I managed to get away and run home. I was surrounded by a group of teenage boys, some of them with iron bars and sticks who were ordering me to take my clothes off. It was very frightening and I still feel very uncomfortable if I find myself alone with a man - like in an elevator. For a while after our marriage I occasionally had to push him away during sex because I was starting to feel panicky. Of course, once the trust I had built up with him kicked in, then I had no problems - now I just feel very, very secure when we make love. These are the main two reasons why I'm scared of losing him and missing sex so much - I just can't see me ever having that trust with another man and can see a life of utter loneliness stretching in front of me. As well as this, it was the time when we were closest and I associate it very much with deep feelings of being loved, being attractive and being needed. As I tend to lack self-confidence, these feelings are of very high importance to my happiness and contentment and I'm finding it very difficult to a) live without them and b) accepting those feelings from another source - such as his hugs or his ringing me up for advice. I dream about him every night and can't stand waking up in the mornings to find he's not there. People keep telling me that 'love isn't everything' and that I have to concentrate on building my own life now - but when you love someone so much, that even after 20 years they are the only person you ever have dreams about, and they can still leave you utterly speechless and wobbly by just flashing you a smile, then it's very difficult to even consider life without them. I feel very trapped because I'm starting to hate myself for being so dependant on his love, and be so willing to put my life on hold completely in order for him to go off and pursue some selfish and childish quest to 'find himself & the meaning of life'. I want to drag him back kicking and screaming, box his ears and tell him to snap out of all this nonsense and face up to his responsibilities. We all have to make sacrifices for our families, we all feel trapped and burdened by life, kids & work at times - but in the real world we just have to put up with it. I know exactly what he would say if I turned round and announced that I was 'going away to find myself' for 6 months and leaving the kids with him! This whole situation is just not fair and I'm angry with myself for being so meek and mild that I'm allowing him to be so selfish. Any advice anyone?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paintbox:<BR><B>Oh bother, I'm on another dip in the rollercoaster again! It upset me again watching him move some of the furniture and his things out yesterday, I ended up shutting myself away in my bedroom - more tears! He was also upset that I was so upset and came up to give me a hug and talk things through. Then the blow came - although he's not actually seeing the OW in person, he admitted that he was still in contact with her via e-mail.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm sorry you're down--this stuff is really brutal for a BS. The ups and downs and his continuing contact are typical. The fact that he was concerned is positive. A lot of WSs seem to have no concern at all for their spouse's feelings.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I don't know how I can compete with her as it's just not in my nature to be dishonest or manipulative - haven't had much practice!<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You don't compete with her this way. Instead, concentrate on Plan A. Here is a good <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000176.html" TARGET=_blank>link</A> on Plan A. It's a post by a very helpful longtime MBer with username NSR. I think you've done some reading already, but you may wish to bookmark his post, which has links to a lot of good information about Plan A.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>he is starting to be aware of her true nature - I only hope she's right.<BR>He rang me later that evening to ask me what clothes washing liquid he should buy! Really it's quite amusing because he has never, ever had to look after himself before ...<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>Moving out tends to be a reality check for the WS. If the affair continues he'll have more time with the OW, but this will put more of a strain on their relationship. He'll be more dependent on her to meet his ENs and see more of her true nature.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>This whole situation is just not fair and I'm angry with myself for being so meek and mild that I'm allowing him to be so selfish. Any advice anyone?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><B>Yes</B>, say these things to us and to friends, <B>not</B> to him. As true as they are, they will be lovebusters to him.<P>I'm going to quote myself from your first thread:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>1) His affair will last less than two years, probably a lot less.<BR>2) If you Plan A--avoid lovebusters, learn to meet his ENs as much as he will let you, and concentrate on becoming a better you, he'll see you as desirable to return to when the affair falls apart.<BR>3) He won't show you much love until that happens, but will notice consistent changes in you if you do a good Plan A.<BR>4) If the affair lasts another 6 months or so, you'll probably have to go to Plan B for a time until the affair ends. It may not last that long, however.<BR>5) After the affair ends if you've been doing a good Plan A he'll fall back in love with you.<BR>6) Eventually, if you follow the Marriage Builders principles, you can have a better marriage than ever before.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>This is the typical scenario.<P>You can't control him, but you can influence him in the long run to return to you as the kind of husband you want, <B>if</B> you do a good Plan A. You seem to have done well so far, just remember that marital recovery tends to be a marathon rather than a sprint. In the meantime, along with doing Plan A, make sure you take care of yourself.<P>Best wishes,<P>Steve<BR>

I wanted to tell you that if I was overly harsh in trying to get you to not have an abortion, I am sorry. My intent was not to harm, but to encourage you to take a better option. I also want you to know that I was trying to help you in a sensible, self-controlled, down to earth way. That differed from what you wanted to hear....so be it. I don't hate you or condemn you....I just find it very sad.<P>Don't worry, I'm not going to stay on your thread. <P>------------------<BR>"They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." Isaiah 40:31

Paint:<P>Glad that you are back. As far as explaining to your H. how you feel about the loss of sex, the last posting you made was great. I thought it summed up all of those feelings so well: the belonging, the self-expression, etc. I would let him read it. Then he will know that it's not "just sex".<BR>I really feel for you. It must be so painful watching him move out. Keep up posted, stay strong and believe.<P> <BR>Robyn

HG, you often have such good advice for people here, and I don't want to come across as too harsh. But you made your point with Paintbox already; enough is enough. Why do you have to have the last word on this? Can't we just help her with the problem she currently has without driving her away again?<P>Paintbox, Steve has given you good advice. Your mantra now has to be "I cannot control what he does; I can only control what I do."<P>I am trying to see if Lora posts on the GQII forum. I'd like her to pop in here and give you her $0.02; she's been in the same situation you're in now.

Hi Paintbox,<P>I just read your story and Dazed directed me here. Your story does sound alot like the begining to my H affair. They were of course just friends going out after work, didnt I want him to have any fun?<P>He started going out 2/99 I discovered 8/99 and I am not positive if they had been sexual yet, although some friends told me I was just in denial about that. Anyway, I did everything wrong till I found this site in 11/99 then I began plan A. He lived at home and saw her, still lieing about it, withdrawn from me, no sex, no talking till I finally asked him to leave 8/00. I sent him some cards and little notes about every few weeks, but other then that we had absolutly no contact til I saw him at his Moms on Xmas. In January I found out OW was married with kids when her H called me. I then called my H and he said he was trying to break up with her. Breaking up took until April when he asked to move home. He has now been home 3 weeks and its going great. <P>But, I think that moving out was the best thing. When he was here, I could do nothing right and OW was a goddess. Once he moved out it seems her constant calling and showing up at his work and apartment were not so fun any more. I think the affair really burned itself out. I know how hard it is to let go and focus on yourself, but I think you have to. Just work on being a happier person and try not to be so focused on him, try not to call him, let him call you, try to let him see how it would be if you were divorced. I dont know if he has broken up with her, I hope so, but it does seem that most often they move out to have more freedom, so dont get your hopes up yet. <P>Good luck,<BR>Lora

Oh, this is so hard!!! I rang him this morning to explain about the 'missing sex' thing and it's real meanings and associations - I did that, but then the conversation somehow got out of hand and I started pushing him for information again. Eventually he told me that he has slept with her once only - that was a few days after the altercation with her husband when he got beaten up. He says that he has so much on his mind at the moment that he hasn't even thought about sex since then - either with her or with me. He did say that he loves me - but as a good friend or 'sister' rather than a lover/partner. He says that his feelings for the OW have not changed and that he is not seeing her at the moment to give her a chance to get out of the situation if she so wishes. It was a big blow to me again as I thought we were getting on better - and I'm afraid I got emotional and sent some love-busters his way! I talked to the relative that's staying with me and she really thinks I would be better off without him - talking to her has made me realise that he has been extremely selfish and self-centered throughout our entire marriage, with me doing all the giving. She thinks that he will never change and that I deserve much better from a relationship. My logical side tends to agree with her, but emotionally I can't escape the fact that I still love him, faults and all. I really don't know what to do as I suspect that it will be me who will be the grateful one if he deigns to come back, when really I should wait until he's prepared to put some work into the relationship too.<P>I fixed bolts on the doors today, as he doesn't want to give me his house keys back. I know that he won't invade my privacy as he's been very good about 'phoning first and knocking on the door instead of just barging in. The bolts are more to make a point. He rang me this evening as he needed to come round and pick up a few more things and I said OK - it was funny when he couldn't get through the door though and he seemed very 'put out' by the fact I'd fixed bolts. We were having dinner at the time and he hovered around looking hungry and seemed reluctant to leave, but I made sure that I didn't offer him any food - he has chosen to live separately and he must learn to look after himself now. I didn't attempt any love-deposits this evening, but just went about my meal and clearing up afterwards with little attention to the fact he was there at all. I have been getting annoyed by the fact that he is still treating this house as though he lives here - he will come in and turn the TV channel over, make himself a cup of tea and help himself to cookies or chocolate. I wanted to make it perfectly clear that he has no right to do that any more. I did feel sorry for him as it was already about 7pm and I knew he had come straight from work. That meant that he still had to go shopping for groceries and then cook himself some dinner - I get the impression that he's just starting to realise what living by himself really means!!<P>After I had calmed down from this morning and had gone through all the 'I can't cope with this so I'll just divorce him', I decided that I still wanted to stay in America for at least the Summer for purely selfish reasons:<BR>a) It gives me a few more months to relax and do what I want to do - if I go back to England now I will have to cope with the extra stress of finding a job, house, shipping possessions etc. etc. Why not spend the summer lazing with the kids by the pool and having picnics?<BR>b) The weather back home is absolutely horrible and I know I would get even more depressed if I had to endure a cold, rainy summer!<BR>c) I want to enjoy the lifestyle that I have now for a little while longer - I deserve it after what I've been through.<BR>d) I can always decide to proceed with a divorce at any time in the future. He has now admitted to being unfaithful, so I have grounds. On the other hand, he has no grounds for divorcing me, so I have control on that issue.<BR>e) It gives me some time to implement Plan B - I know it's risky, but I think this relationship with the OW will need to develop before it heals. I am also too emotional at the moment to stop myself from hurling love-busters at him! If I go with Plan B and have as little contact with him as possible, then I'll have less chance of doing and saying things I might regret! I am not sure whether I now even want to save the marriage and it will give me time to think about that too.<P>Thanks for all your help! I'm trying to hang in there.<BR>hugs, Paint

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paintbox:<BR><B><BR>...the conversation somehow got out of hand and I started pushing him for information again.<P>...He did say that he loves me - but as a good friend or 'sister' rather than a lover/partner. He says that his feelings for the OW have not changed and that he is not seeing her at the moment to give her a chance to get out of the situation if she so wishes.<BR>...I'm afraid I got emotional and sent some love-busters his way!<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>This stuff is really painful. I understand the need to hear all the gory details, but it's better left till later if you can. You'll get nowhere with relationship talks until he severs contact with the OW. The most important thing you can do is avoid lovebusters...if you don't he won't see you as safe or desirable to return to when the affair ends.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I talked to the relative that's staying with me and she really thinks I would be better off without him - talking to her has made me realise that he has been extremely selfish and self-centered throughout our entire marriage, with me doing all the giving. She thinks that he will never change and that I deserve much better from a relationship.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Your relative is well-meaning and siding with you. However, she probably doesn't know much about affairs. He has been selfish and you do deserve better, but he probably also deserved better than the marriage you both had before he decided to have an affair. In all probability he will change and you will eventually both get the marriage you deserve <B>if</B> you follow the MB principles consistently.<BR>If you don't and move on to someone else there is a high probability that that new relationship will fail also.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>e) It gives me some time to implement Plan B - I know it's risky, but I think this relationship with the OW will need to develop before it heals. I am also too emotional at the moment to stop myself from hurling love-busters at him! If I go with Plan B and have as little contact with him as possible, then I'll have less chance of doing and saying things I might regret!<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It would be much better if you can do a good Plan A for at least a few months. I'm going to quote from NSR's Plan A page which I gave you the link to above:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>Both Plan A and Plan B are a cohesive collection of steps that lead one down a very narrow path of marital recovery... They must work together if Plan A does not work by itself.<P>You start Plan B only after some time in Plan A... a normal amount of time in Plan A could/should be about 6 months... but can be as little almost nothing to much more than 6 months.<P>Plan B can only be as effective as Plan A was in setting up a foundation for the establishing a "safe" environment for the wayward spouse to return!<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>You say:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>I really don't know what to do as I suspect that it will be me who will be the grateful one if he deigns to come back, when really I should wait until he's prepared to put some work into the relationship too.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>He may not ever be unless you do so first. This is something which seems so unfair, but it is reality. He already concluded he should give up on you in choosing to have an affair. You need to do a Plan A which lets him see what your relationship can be if he'll start trying again. In the long run it will be worthwhile to you also.<P>Right now it will be hard, though, which is why you need support from people who know about marital recovery and not just well-meaning friends and relatives who will unwittingly sabotage any chance for recovering your marriage.<P>I hope you're still hanging in there ok.<P>Steve<P><BR>

Just a quickie reply about your all-over-the-place emotions right now:<P>You just went through an abortion. Your hormones are all over the place themselves, never mind the seperation with your H...<P>That cannot be minimized.<P>Take **good** care of yourself. I did try the friendly seperation with my ex-H and it helped, but a Plan A first (a good one, I tried and was a miserable failure) would have been better.<P>I hope you're healing and beginning to feel better today.<P>No more big decisions until you feel better, okay?<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

Thankyou - I bought 'Surviving an Affair' today to learn more about Plans A and B. I've already read 'His Needs, Her Needs' so I know exactly what went wrong in the first place and why the affair is happening. I've felt a bit better today - I always feel better when he's not around and I don't know whether this is because it's easier to be in denial when I'm not with him. I also bought my daughters books appropriate for their ages to try and prepare them for a possible divorce. My eldest (10) had been keeping it all inside, pretending everything was fine, but when she saw the book (which had been written mostly by children her age who had been through this), she broke down and cried and we talked for nearly 2 hours about what was happening. It was painful for both of us, but she really needed to be able to express her grief and worries. <BR>I was very disappointed that my husband did not bother to phone the children today. I can't complain to him about it because it would be yet another 'love-buster', but our relative who is staying with us has said that she intends to mention it to him when she sees him at the weekend. So far he hasn't made any plans to see the kids yet and he needs to know how important it is for him to give them a firm date to look forward to. <P>I'm having some problems trying to find advice specific to my situation in 'Surviving an Affair' as most of the scenarios depict the WS feeling great guilt about hurting the children and missing them so much, that they return to the BS initially because they can't bear to break the family up. In my situation, my husband doesn't seem to care much at all about what he's doing to the kids, or seem to be missing them much. As I've mentioned before, he has never really developed any sort of relationship with them and this worries me that it will make it even less likely that he'll come back to us - any advice/suggestions?<P>Best wishes, Paint

Paintbox,<P>I don't know that I have a lot to add to my previous posts. HNHN and SAA are excellent books, you're off to a good start in reading them.<P>As far as the kids go, they tend to be a source of reality to the WS. I'm sorry that he doesn't have the relationship with them that you would like. However the main reason that he will consider coming back is still you and your Plan A. His lack of concern sounds like a fairly typical WS response, total denial of the pain they are causing. I'm glad that you're discussing things with your kids. The best thing for them, though, is for your marriage to be healed.<P>We never separated, and my wife did/does care for the kids (2 sons), even when she was having a A. However, the good feelings that a WS gets from an A tends to override any other considerations.<P>You might try posting on the GQII (General Questions II) forum. More people post there, and you may find more who have experiences closer to yours.<P>Best wishes,<P>Steve