I am new to this board and am saddened by most of what I've red. Most of you seem so pathethic and loss over your life. I believe the site is called marriage builfer. How can you build something by 1( doing it yourself 2) Acting so imature 3) Just plain manipulation.<BR>In reading hundreds of your posts, I find you slamming wives and husbands, OW Oh and everyone , but yourselves. You made your life exactly as you wanted it. I saw you gving kudos to a woman who did mean and imature acts to an OW "You sure scared her" Is this what you want to teach your children? Is this rebuilding your marriage?<BR>I hope to never be that kind of person for my shildren, even if they can't understand. <BR>Yes, but your mad, so are muders, and thieves, is it o.k. for them to do what they do? Grow up!<BR>Youa ll talk about the plans A&B, lets call them what they are _ MANIPULATION- this is what you use when you discipline your kids, not what you use on someone you supposedly love. It is for todlers, not for adults. Is that how you want your spouses back? Through tricks?<BR>I have been both W and OW and have never seen the truth in making soemone be in a marriage or relationship that they did not want to. I have seen you all write about vows and commitments. I agree.<BR>On the other hand, you can't make someone feel some way they do not. Why would you fight for something that is not there?Are you fooling yourself about wht was there in the first place?<BR>Is denial better than the truth? What do you get out of it? Fathers for your children? Mothers for them? How about true relationships for them instead. Do people really leave relationships that are good? In my little knowing...no.<BR>Why do you so desperately want to hang onto something or someone that does not make you a better person? Is it better to be with someone than no one?<BR>Are all of you so insecure that you need to write to people you don't know and can't possibbly know everything in your life to make a true and honest opinion about what you tell them?<BR>Anything can be given a spin. It's always only your perception.<BR>Like my name says, I'm just a person, one voice, I just wanted to share that I was looking for discussion, not judgement, hypocracy, hatefulness, and ill informed opinions.<BR>Are you all being the person you truly want others to see you as, or are you just hurt, angry, and unable to take your life in your own hands, and live it with dignity. I have seen none of that here, especially those of you who blame others for the end of your marriages. Affairs and other people are not your problems, they are the result of your problems. Look at your marriages. You are cowards, who write into space rather than confront your own mistakes.<BR>I can take whatever you can give. No God Bless, I'm sorry or anything. <BR>E

All,<P>Looks like Just a person hit several forums tonight with the same post.<P>The one most responded to is:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/010179.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/010179.html</A> <P>Z

Sounds to me like someone has some issues here.....<P>The reason we 'talk' to people we don't know is that because of the complete anonymity that is afforded us, we can be completely and sometimes brutally honest about what we are feeling/hurting inside.<P>If you had read the entire context of the one post you pointed out, you would have understoood that here was a person who was trying her level best to allow things to work with her and her spouse and yet everytime she turned around he was throwing it back in her face AND still carrying on an affair...so she finally got tired of trying tobe the super nice, let me turn the other cheek person and she informed the other woman of her feelings. I did second that motion.<P>Oh, we don't deny anything here. If you had cared to read many of the posts, you will find that quite the oppostie is going on, there is a complete sharing of information, the good, bad and ugly of life and relationships. We don't deny that there are people who seem to think that thinking with their penis' or vaginal openings is an ok thing to do even though there are wives, husbands and children at home.<P>You seem to think that a person's wedding vows are just words that are spoken, but with little meaning...for many of us, how well do you truly know someone until you ahve shared a bed with them every nite for a period of months and years.....For you, if it doesn't work, instead of trying to find a way to allow the relationship to work....it is ok to just toss it in the garbage heap and move on.....sad, little woman you must be. We here in these forums are here for various reasons, some to talk, some to laugh, some because they are hurting and do not know where to go for advice and counsel to just get through the day or night....But we are all committed to trying to be good listeners and to give the best advice we can as some of us have lived through these situations before and want others to succeed too.<P>I will politely say that if this place is not to your liking, then take your little mouse and click on some other icon that can take you to a place that pleases you more.<P>WE will continue to carry on here and be here for each other, whether we all agree with each other or not, but because we all CARE and want to try to help.<P>So, now, if you still want to be a part, please come in and be welcomed, share your story and let us have a dialoge. If you just want to bash...then plan on having a very lonly time here.<P>

Thank you Zor and Freddyb for responding to this outrageous post.<P>First off Just - the Plan A&B are developments from a very seasoned marriage counselor, who has a wonderful web site MARRIAGE BUILDERS to help us get back on our feet from a devastating blow.<P>If you want to blast his theories you have no reason to be here. I for one cannot understand that you have no remorse. (Referring to the end of your post). The reason for posting for help is so that your friends won't look at you strange and change your relationship with them, because they would not understand.<P>The people here understand because they are walking in the same painful tracks.<P>I respond to your post because you are way out of line. You are not trying to help us with the Marriage Builders principles - that is why we are here. We are here to take care of our pain and anger and depression - of which you do not seem to have in your soul.<P>I feel very sorry for you, God Bless you anyway.

<BR>When you said you were both the W and OW were you bragging or complaining? <P>I looked at your profile and you stated you were a writer. Your spelling and grammar are a nightmare....LOL<P>It is always wonderful to see such supportive people. :-)<P>I think most of reading your post just feel sorry for YOU

I also feel somewhat sorry for you. I believe it is better to talk to people who understand my feelings, than to blast them at my husband who is also hurting in his own way.<P>I don't hate him, or my former best friend. I don't understand at all what they did to me. I do know I will never completely trust my heart to anybody again.<P>As the OW, I can only hope you know what devastation you have caused. Was it worth it?

This person, you sound stupid. Hope that you will never be in a position those people are where they are cheated and have to work on their marriage.

E -- so much to address here.....<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Just a person:<BR><B>I find you slamming wives and husbands, OW Oh and everyone , but yourselves. You made your life exactly as you wanted it.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>There is a lot of pain and emotional ups and downs that go with infidelity, marital problems, and divorce. Many of us are looking for a safe place to vent frustrations, looking for sympathy, and people who understand what we are going through or are going through it too.<P>But we are here because our lives are NOT how we want them to be. Because we do want them to be something better. <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Youa ll talk about the plans A&B, lets call them what they are _ MANIPULATION- this is what you use when you discipline your kids, not what you use on someone you supposedly love. It is for todlers, not for adults. Is that how you want your spouses back? Through tricks?<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Now this one I have to strongly disagree with. When you don't know what A & B are, or when they are being implemented improperly, yes.....I can see how they can be viewed as manipulation.<P>But more importantly, Plan A is a recognition that we personally had something to do with causing our spouse's infidelity. It's a form of behavioral training for ourself. Teaching ourself to meets our spouse's needs and to learn to meet our own needs. Doing those things which we should have done and neglected. It's meant to stabilize the situation so that the couple can stop fighting, etc. and get some real help.<P>How can it be manipulation when the greatest amount of change is taking place within ourselves?<P>Plan B is a total withdrawal from the wayward spouse. No contact. The wayward spouse is being left to fend for themselves. How is that manipulative? We don't force them to leave the other person. We withdraw from them so that we are no longer being hurt (it has everything to do with ourself and how we are handling the overall situation....not with the spouse).<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR> you can't make someone feel some way they do not. Why would you fight for something that is not there?Are you fooling yourself about wht was there in the first place?<BR>Is denial better than the truth? What do you get out of it? Fathers for your children? Mothers for them? How about true relationships for them instead. Do people really leave relationships that are good? In my little knowing...no.<BR>Why do you so desperately want to hang onto something or someone that does not make you a better person? Is it better to be with someone than no one?<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>So many questions ---- the same ones that many of us are asking ourselves and voicing our frustrations about.<P>I think we assume that when we all got married there *was* something there. But it's disappeared. How did we change that caused it to disappear ---- or how did we not change?<BR>And some of us do question whether it was there to begin with.<P>No, denial is not better than the truth.....I think we all agree about it. But denial can be one stage that we have to move through before we find the real problems and can try to get them sorted out. But the greatest denials tend to come from the wayward spouses. They are the one's who are lying about affairs. They are the one's who are manipulating their friends and family members in order to satisfy their needs. They are the one's who are hurting many others.<P>For the children? Yes. Despite the reports of "your children will be ok" that are put out by the courts, there are numerous reports that indicate that most divorces are not so good for the children. That children would rather that their parents stay together and be unhappy than to have their parents divorce. School and psychological reports support this to be better for the children. [But a violent and abusive relationship is different from one where one or both people are simply 'not happy'.]<P>The last two questions are very individual. I'd have to say that if your spouse doesn't support you and your endeavors, then the situation might be abusive or oppresive. And some people don't want to face the thought of going through life alone. <BR><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Are all of you so insecure that you need to write to people you don't know and can't possibbly know everything in your life to make a true and honest opinion about what you tell them?<BR>Anything can be given a spin. It's always only your perception.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You're right! But sometimes it is easier to talk to strangers. And many of us do make friendships or have certain people that we always talk to because we've figured out that our relationships have similiar problems. <P>But this also goes back to honesty and denial. Advice won't help if what you are telling the people on the boards is a load of ****. If you are being honest with yourself first and foremost, then you can be honest with the boards and get the help you need. <P>Also, the impersonality of the boards sometimes allows for some painful lessons that a close friend or family member may not be able to give. I don't know if it's because the words don't sting as much, or if it's because we have strangers picking out and exposing our greatest flaws ---- forcing us to look at the truth. It's easy to rebuff a family member or argue with someone you know. It's not so easy to do that with someone who doesn't really even know you.....and yet they've just struck you in a sensitive spot.<BR><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><P>Like my name says, I'm just a person, one voice, I just wanted to share that I was looking for discussion, not judgement, hypocracy, hatefulness, and ill informed opinions.<BR>Are you all being the person you truly want others to see you as, or are you just hurt, angry, and unable to take your life in your own hands, and live it with dignity. I have seen none of that here, especially those of you who blame others for the end of your marriages. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>A lot of us are hurt and angry, in denial, fearfull, seeking revenge, lashing out in any way possible, ----- others are seeking enlightenment, ideas, encouragement,........<P>That's what this process is all about. Moving through these stages ---- hopefully to reconcile a marriage. But also to help us get through the grieving process and sort out our feelings if it doesn't work out.<BR> <BR><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Affairs and other people are not your problems, they are the result of your problems. Look at your marriages. You are cowards, who write into space rather than confront your own mistakes.<BR>E </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>yes --- there are a LOT of frustrations. It IS hard to confront our own mistakes. Marriage Builders is about trying to correct those mistakes, or prevent them from happening again in a future relationship.<P>Still, it's better to come here and vent our frustrations then to take it out on our children, or our spouse, family members, and friends. <P>There is comfort knowing that others are dealing with problems similiar to your own.<P>And it's better than doing nothing. At least we are trying to do something.<P>It's not easy to admit our errors and weaknesses, see the truth, and get away from manipulation and actually work on ourselves. It's not easy to yield in the power battle and dominance games that have been going on with our spouses and trust that the Lord will guide us. It's not easy to set aside our fear and anger and treat the wayward spouse with a level of dignity that we don't think they deserve.<P>But we learn to be more aware of ourselves, of our real needs, and not to deceive ourselves. And we learn to be more aware of the needs of others. We learn self-control, self-sacrifice, giving, and taking our lumps when we deserve them. And also when to draw the line....taking our share, not more, not less...unless we make the decision to do so.<P>This is more than long enough of a response. I hope it helps. <P>Please, look through more than just the MB forums. Look at the website itself. Read the articles. Find out what Plans A & B really are.<P>~Amy

To OneGoing and forum members:<P>I have taken the liberty of re-opening this thread because here at Marriage Builders, we believe in listening to the opinions of others. While Just a person apparently does not agree with the principles here, his/her post is still food for thought and is not something that must be censored by this forum.<P>We do not condone hatefulness, particularly when it is directed at specific individuals, but this post is not hateful - it is simply the opinion of a person who has not read and understood the principles of Marriage Building whether they are Dr. Harley's MB principles or any other successful marriage therapist's principles.<P>I encourage thoughtful responses to this thread based in MB principles.<BR><P>------------------<BR><B>Tempest</B>, Moderator<BR>Marriage Builders Infidelity Forums:<BR><I>General Questions II, Just Found Out...,<BR>Plan A/Plan B, In Recovery</I> <BR><I>Pregnancy/Child</I> and <BR><I>Read-Only Posts</I>

Thank you Tempest.<P>To others: follow the identical, but more responded to, post in General Questions II ( <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/010179.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/010179.html</A> ). You will see that Just A Person opened up eventually, and the beginnings of a possible dialog has begun.<P>If you draw them in with vinegar, they may swallow it, but it will be bitter and unpalatable. Draw them in with sugar, however, and you will find them eager to seek more.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Sorry, Just A....<BR>"Personal Responsibility' and "Accountability" are a couple of the latest buzz words from pop psychology. "Abuse" is over-used, "issues" is way over-used, etc.<BR>I've been around here long enough to give most of the MB posters credit for very legitimate efforts to deal with their marital problems. <BR>Churches, society, parents, have all failed to do the correct job regarding marital education and expectations. We have all made very specific mistakes; certainly I admit to that and am just now, working with my W regarding the question "are my apologies adequate enough?"<BR>She has made mistakes, too, and I can't see her effort to make things better, though there must be some...after all, she did move back a year ago.<BR>So, how about supporting one another, here?<BR>I would certainly want to support you and be a friend to you regarding any problems or concerns that you share with us.<BR>I am not thinking that a blanket condemnation will help much.<BR>However, I am giving my highest recommendation to John Gottman's new book, Relationship Cure. It deals with the whole broad spectrum of human interaction and how easy it is to get off track.<BR>I personally, know that it has helped me a good deal and I specifically recommend it to men, most of whom don't get the "socialization schooling" that is given to females, from toddlerhood, on. I know that I have a lot of ground to make up.<BR>Good luck<BR>r<BR>ps remember, everyone here is at least brave enough to bare their souls, a bit. A good deal of the anguish is because their spouses aren't able to<BR>

I will agree that alot of your observationa are true to an extent. I for one am not pathetic. I recently started counseling to help me deal with my husband's one-night stand. My therapist uses Dr. Haley's theories in her treatment. She also helped me discover that I have co-dependency issues. I have discovered many things about myself that I didn't truly realize. I am not blaming the affair on myself, but I did not meet certain needs that were very important to him. At the same time, he didn't tell me he had problems with our marriage so how was I to know until this happened? Just because someone has an affair of any kind does not mean it is over, or Love is not there anymore. It does mean that something was missing for a while. I will not let you or anyone else make me think that six years of marriage should end over one night of passion. I will decide that in due time once I have worked out my own contribution to our problems. In the meantime, if you can't be helpful, shut up. We have enough drama in our lives right now and we don't need any more. Many of us feel so devastated and suicidal when we find something like this out, that your comments could push someone over the edge. SHAME ON YOU!

I am sorry, but most of these people are hurt and upset by what has happened to them. They do not need to be made to feel like bad people because someone decided that they couldn't be truthful. And also if you were to you use the phrase "God Bless" you have many problems. Because, flat out, you are an adulteror. Which is a sin against one of the ten commandments. So if these people, myself included, want to be mad; they can be. Because these men and women, yourself included, who have affairs, are not only hurting people they claimed to have cared about, but they are also sinning against God. And that offers a far worse punishment in the end, than any of these words that the people who are hurt, and who have been betrayed can say.<BR>And if you don't believe read your BIBLE for once.

I knew JAP was going to receive tons of flak for this post. But I read it and had to agree, at least as far as my relationship goes. I tend to get so angry and pissed off about some injustice, I fail to realize i can do a whole lot to rectify things with my own actions. I'm in a situation like that now. I am so d@mn pissed at my W for various reasons; but now I know the problem is a manifestation of the dynamics between two people--one of which is myself.<P>I do agree with JAP that we as individuals do tend to wallow in our own pain and depression, and we seek to find blame in others. THe world could sure use more humility.<P>So, JAP, you have inspired me to take a long hard look at where I fit into my own problems, and how I can act to be a part of the solution. You are a pretty wise person.<BR>Behaving with grace is a rare and beautiful thing. <P>

EazyE

I am glad that you were able to get somethin positive out of JaP's post. Inspiration can come from some of the most unlikely places.

However, I do want to point to others that JaP came here to MB to attack the wife of the man she is (we hope WAS) having an affair with. This was one of a few that she used for purpose. It was done with dishonorable intentions.

E

<small>[ June 04, 2003, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: Eleonora ]</small>