I need help badly. My fiance and I have read several of Dr Harley's books together. We are dedicated to building a healthy and happy marriage and we have been committed to each other faithfully for a while now. He has cheated on me in the past. There have been lies and broken promises about no-contact with one of the women he cheated on me with.<P>Now our engagement seems to be hanging in the balance over an issue that's always caused us problems. We've just been able to honestly identify it to each other. I desparately need advice and I hope that those of you here can assist me or point me to a better forum.<P>The problem is he finds other women gorgeous, but not me. He admitted he's never found me gorgeous and he doubts he ever will. As a result, I feel very hurt and upset when he checks out other women in front of me. <P>I also feel like I'll never really feel like a woman if I marry this man. He claims I'm attractive to him, but not gorgeous.<P>I always thought I'd be attractive enough to be the sexiest woman in my husband's eyes. I still get offers to work in the sex industry -- I've never done that kind of work because I'd feel like I was selling a part of myself to anyone who'd pay and I'd rather only give that part of myself to someone I choose!<P>That's why I don't think I'll ever feel like a woman again. How can I give myself sexually to someone who doesn't find me gorgeous or the sexiest woman in his eyes and heart? I feel more turned off the more I think about it.<P>My fiance says that all men find porn stars, supermodels and younger more perfect women more gorgeous than their wives, but they never tell their wives. He's just being honest like Dr Harley suggests. <P>Is that really how it is? Am I living in a dream world by expecting more?

WW<P>I am not sure that Dr. Harley ever said to be so honest with your spouse that it hurts them, makes them feel like less of a person, or justifies a behavior such as this. Even if I didn't think my W was the sexiest, most beautiful woman in the world, I would never put it the way your H has. I don't mean to judge nor throw stones, but that is just plain disheartening. What does he think that kind of honesty accomplishes? It certainly doesn't make you feel good! Does he feel that by being honest with you in that way, it gives him a license to give himself whiplash while with you in public? I don't blame you for feeling the way you do about it. Loving you is much more than the words he uses. If he doesn't make you feel attractive to yourself, how could you ever be in his eyes? You two should try reading His Needs/Her Needs and find out what can be done so that you both benefit from this *attraction* issue, or you could be butting heads more often. In the meantime, tell him if he feels the need to ogle other women, please don't comment to you about them, or do it front of you. Both of those are disrespectful and rude, IMHO.<P>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.*<P>Trueheart

I am really disturbed by this. Your fiancé seems to be hiding being the Rule of Honesty to hurt you. He is not following the rules of care and protection.
There are many gorgeous men and women in this world and most of us cannot live up to their image. However there are many many more “normal” looking people. So what is the point? I believe that the point is to hurt you and to justify his looking and perhaps cheating on you. Remember that physical appearance is an emotional need. If he does not feel that you fill that need for him then he has not business marrying you.
From what you have said, I bet that you are a very attractive lady. Why are you putting up with a man who tells you this?
This is a marriage building web site. I believe in marriage so I do not tell you this lightly. If your fiancé does not find you to be the sweetest, most lovable, most beautiful woman “in his eyes” then don’t marry him. Why enter into an marriage that is only going to bring you pain.
RE: My fiancé says that all men find porn stars, supermodels and younger more perfect women more gorgeous than their wives, but they never tell their wives. He's just being honest like Dr Harley suggests.
You know what? It is true that men find “stars, supermodels and younger more perfect women more gorgeous than their wives”. And women find male “stars, supermodels and younger more perfect men more gorgeous than their husband.” They are “beautiful” people on the outside.
But you can bet that I don’t rub it in my husband’s face. I would never hurt him by putting him down like that. And why not? Because I love him more then life itself. Because I love him for whom he is. To me is very good looking, quite a hunk. I think that most women would say that he is attractive. But you see I love him and I see him through a filter of my own making.
You are not living in a dream world. You should expect more.

<small>[ June 04, 2003, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: Eleonora ]</small>

Dear Willing,<BR>When I read trueheart's response I kept thinking, "Yeah, really!" And zorweb is right, you sound like you're very gorgeous. What makes him think he can get away with saying and treating you any old kind of way? Plus he already cheated on you? Hmmmm...<P>IMHO, you have received your warnings and whether or not you proceed with this marriage is up to you, but if your heart of hearts is recognizing these things, then it doesn't sound to me like this is the guy for you. Perhaps you have made a terrible mistake???<P>God has a way of showing us what we are in for and it appears that He has pulled no punches with you on this one. Woman to woman, I'd say DON'T MARRY THIS GUY!!!! OR, at least wait until everything inside of you screams YES! YES! YES! and there are no doubts in your heart and mind... It sounds to me like you have serious and valid doubts about this guy being "THE ONE..."<P>Once I found some porn magazines hidden in an old boyfriend's closet and I remember feeling absolutely crushed. When I told a male friend of mine, he asked me, "So what, did you think YOU were his centerfold?" I was like, "Well, yeah!?" And he just looked at me as if to say, "Get real!" Thankfully, I did not marry that boyfriend! It is not unreasonable to expect that you and your man will only have 'eyes' for each other.<P>I'm not trying to tell you what to do with your life, just giving you my friendly thoughts on what you have already shared. You know what you need from a man. I say hold out for the love of Jesus in a man. Someone who will love you unconditionally and focus on what you ARE. Someone who can sincerely build you up, not tear you down and vice versa. Your fiance's comments have not done anything to nurture your trust and faith in him esp. with his track record!<P>Go with your heart! Then you won't be looking back saying to yourself, "Something told me..."<p>[This message has been edited by BINthereDUNthat (edited July 20, 2001).]

Willing_To_Work:<P>I don't find the honesty that your fiancee is giving you "horrible"---it's a bit tactless. But I do find when you combine this honesty with the fact that he has cheated on you more than once, and lied to you about no-contact---I would cancel the wedding plans. This guy is probably not going to change, and I think you'd probably do better with someone who does "value" your attractiveness, and makes you feel better.<P>It's probably not realistic for you to expect that the man you will marry will find never see a woman who he thinks is "attractive" or gorgeous. But it is very realistic to expect to marry a man who can be honest and loving at the same time, as well as faithful. This guy doesn't seem to be cutting it. While the MB principles are terrific for saving marriages (and relationships), yours is not a marriage---I wouldn't go to through the effort at this point.<P>

Thank you all.<P>It seems that my expectations were a bit unrealistic. That's something I'll have to deal with and work on for myself, no matter who I marry. I don't fault my fiance for telling me the truth. <P>I needed to face this. It reminds me of what my parents used to tell me while I was growing up. "Your a very attractive girl, but you're more than that. And if you study hard and develop your mind and hobbies, you'll still be a facinating woman when you turn 80."<P>K is right about the rule of care and protection though. That IS why this hurts and why I'm worried about this engagement. I will accept that I'm not the most gorgeous woman in my fiance's eyes. It would be nice if he could see me that way. He does see me as attractive and has told me he doesn't feel cheated or like he's just settling. But, the staring at other women in my presence even though he knows it hurts me, makes me feel disrespected and subjects me to the other women's looks of superiority or pity... I know that's a violation of Harley's rules. Also, he doesn't do much to rebuild my self esteem. Yes, I guess I have been expecting too much, but I need his support in rebuilding my self-esteem and feeling that he still finds me attractive. I'm hurting right now. I want my fiance to help me accept the truth and find out where I fit into that truth.<P>The cheating, broken promises, and the lies seem to have stopped. The cheating and broken promises ended a year ago or I wouldn't have accepted the proposal. The lies, well, he's the type of liar that lies to avoid conflict. I think that's stopped, I'm not sure. So, I may be wrong about the cheating and broken promises too, because those are conflict producing.<P>Typing this, it seems bleak. But he is reading these books to me, opening up about alot of things, discussing each chapter and he says that the staring at other women is an annoying habit he'd like to break. Those things seem so hopeful. I'm very confused.

Hey Willing:<P>I am also engaged, and have been here for quite a while. I also am aware that my not being married makes a difference when I receive advice here.<P>I had pointed out that it's very tempting to tell engaged people with problems to call it off, whereas people in a married (religious or secular) state are urged to explore saving their marriages.<P>If I were you, I would want to find out more about your fiance and the way he thinks. I agree with the members who have said that the content of his comment is probably true for all of us - that movie stars etc. are, truthfully, more beautiful than most of us. I also agree that his delivery sucked, and that there are many ways to combine honesty with the rule of protection.<P>I also believe that you can have a deep, deep attraction to your partner. The partner's "flaws" only make them dearer to us. my fiance has a receding hairline, and I often kiss his forehead and thank God for him. Yeah, in university I loved artsy guys with long hair, but I love this guy to tears, so it really changes what I thought beautiful was.<P>It's possible to admire attractive people, but it has to be done with respect. <P>If I were you, I wold consider counselling. A counsellor might be able to get you both to look at what you have together - the good and the bad. <P>I am sorry this situation is hurting you. I would explore it before abandoning it.<P>I have often said that people who are 100% peaceful and certain abut their fiance may simply be people who have never been challenged by infidelity.<P>Good luck, you aren't alone<P> Robyn

Thanks Robyn.<P>What's your story? As another couple doing our darndest to face the reality of a relationship before the wedding, I'd be happy to let you know what steps we've taken to remove the rose colored glasses. <P>But, it is very painful and as others here have stated, staying the course through the pain without the marraige may be wrong. For me, the vows of betrothal (engagement) are binding. It feels like I'm considering throwing away my values by considering not getting married after I accepted that ring.<P>I hope your story isn't as painful as mine. I also hope your fiance was ready for commitment BEFORE he met you. Mine was still a player when I met him and I still feel the pain of the deception from those early days.

Hi Willing!<P>My story is all over these boards - you can search out the long versions. My fiance has pretty much always wanted a committed relationship. He had several good ones before I met him. That's not to say that he didn't make some BAD judgement calls...being friends as long as we have, I don't ever remember him "playing" women...and I got to hear all the dirt. What is his Achilles heel, is his need for women to like him and approve of him. He has a hard time telling women if he is angry with them, or annoyed. He is very flattered when they flirt with him. I think that's how he got into trouble last fall.<P>(some of this is from my string with Worth a Try) <BR>-my fiance was a close friend for 6 years. During those 6 years, I was in another relationship (with an alcoholic, complete with temper). My fiance had 2 relationships with good people who were just the "wrong person", and a number of dates. <BR>-we have been a couple for 2 years. We became engaged 6 months ago. I am, for the most part thrilled.<P>-Last fall, a female friend kissed my fiance. (I think. This is all I can figure out. Despite a safe environment, my fiance denies that anything out of line happened. I have overheard enough conversations to know that it did).<P>-My fiance and I have had a number of conversations about infidelity - how each of us defines it, what we promise to each other, what we are feeling etc. I think he and I want the same things. I know that he loves me very much and is committed to our future. SO he knows how I feel about things.<P>-My feeling is that he wants to wipe the incident from his life and not hurt me by bringing it up. Of course, if he does tell me, I will then have peace. I am ready to move ahead. I don't need to get even or throw it in his face. I DO believe that he intends to honour his promises to me. <P>-Since the incident, I have found no sign of a continuing affair (no absences, change of habits/clothes, moodiness, excessive happiness, notes, papers, phone bills, etc.)<P>-I have two problems:<P>ONE - myself. I can't let this go. I need the truth. I feel like Cold Squad. As my good friend Just Learning has pointed out, I also stand to lose a great guy if my feelings turn into actions. I have never obsessed over another woman, incident, person, magazines, male friends, you name it. I was Miss Easy Going until this one girl did this.<P>TWO - the girl. We know her. She is, unfortunately, part of the fabric of our lives. She is a manipulative game-player. She also has some sort of crush on fiance. People think that she is jealous of me and may want to make me uncomfortable.<P>SO - my plan is this:<P>PLAN A - a good marriage requires each of us to look within and be the best we can be. We must treat our partner the best we know how. And try to love life! <BR>Communication - We try to talk whenever possible. I hope one day my fiance will tell me more about what happened.<BR>Avoidance - I try not to involve this girl in our lives. I avoid her whenever possible. I do not give her opportunities to approach my fiance. I'm hoping she will eventually be distracted by another hapless guy that wanders into her path. My fiance sees nothing wrong with this girl. He has put any incident behind him.<P>Anyway, I'm here to learn. I'm here to try and give an assist where I can. I'd love to hear more about how you are handling your fiance's past and his interest in women.<P>Thanks!<BR>Robyn<P>

Robyn<P>Wow, I'm glad I asked. Now, I won't be on the board again till Monday and I'll be looking for you then. For now...<P>The truth IS key. I think it means more to most women than they know. Dr. Harley seems to recognize it's importance to relationships for both men and women and I agree. Yep, my post here is about the pain from the truth. Probably delivered to me by my fiance with a love buster, but it is the truth and now I can work on my feelings and plan my future based on the facts not on secrets or lies.<P>Has your fiance read "Love Busters"? My fiance has read both His Needs/Her Needs and Love Busters to me. He has an easier time concentrating when he reads. It's currently our quality time together. He reads a chapter and we discuss it and answer the questions. You could ask your fiance to read it himself, but I find my man won't read a relationship book without me, and this way we get to go through the questions together when the material is fresh in our minds. <P>Love Busters has a chapter on Lies. Sounds to me like your fiance may be lying to protect you. Dr Harley discusses why it seems like a nice thing to do and why it doesn't work out that way. Dr Harley explains things in such a sensible manner, he just makes stuff seem so obvious, once he's explained it.<P>As for this girl you talked about. Well, she's an OW. She's dangerous. You know it and you fiance may or may not know it. <P>My fiance was a player, but he dropped that and things seemed great because those women were just fun and games to him. He forgot them and focused on me. Or so I thought. <P>There was one woman he continued to communicate with. Now all this took place a year before we got engaged. He said she was "just a friend", but they had had a sexual affair (yes, my fiance was a real creep, this woman's married). Also, they talked on the phone and met up with each other without telling me or her husband. Sometimes, she'd show up public places we both were to talk to him, her husband didn't know about that. I kept saying this feels like an affair, even if there's no sex why the secrets and lies? I hadn't found Dr. Harley's books yet, but my gut knew. <P>Finally, this OW asked my fiance to a concert and bought tickets for herself, her best girlfriend (who she always had along when she left her husband at home with the kids and went out to meet my fiance), and my fiance. My fiance felt funny about it and told me. I asked when WE were going. He said that she hadn't gotten me a ticket. I asked when she'd gotten the tickets, she'd gotten them long after he told her I was his girlfriend. <P>That was it. I asked him if maybe what felt funny was she set up a date for them and deliberately excluded me. Plus she'd invited her friend as a cover up so she could lie to her husband. He said yes. I asked if he thought that was cheating and an affair, sex or no sex. He said yes. <P>So, He waited for her call. She called him, so her husband wouldn't know when they talked. He told her that he would not be going to the concert and that he never wanted to hear from her or see her again. He told her that if he saw her in public, he'd ignore her. He'd refuse her calls. Total no contact, though we didn't call it that then, we hadn't read Dr. Harley's books yet. He told her he was doing these things because he wanted to work on his relationship with me and she was in the way. He warned her he'd tell her husband if she tried to persue him.<P>She didn't, and I was there for him to talk to about the pain of his losing his friend. It was tough for a few months, now she's history. I ask about her now and he seems very over her and rather disinterested. Often he's more ashamed at how she used him and what he did to her husband and me.<P>She lived in the same town. No contact worked because he was determined not to see her and she was determined not to let her husband find out about their affair.<P>The point of relating my history to you Robyn is this. Your fiance must recognize this as a threat to your relationship. He must admit this woman wants him and he has been interested enough in her to exclude you from the content and times that he has contact with her. Thats a huge red flag. He must face the fact that just a kiss can become much more in the right setting and he must avoid that setting at all costs. He has to see that, not just you. And once he does see that, he's got to take steps to STOP anything from ever happening. And the only way to be sure that it won't once he admits the above, is to make sure he's never in contact with her again! He owes you and himself that.<P>You've got to help him see that. How? Well, she's not as blatent as my fiance's OW was, so concert tickets aren't going to do the trick. <P>Dr. Harley has a book on Surviving Affairs. We have the book but haven't gotten to read it together. I have pre-read it since my fiance doesn't mind that I don't wait for him to read to me, as long as I promise to point out anything pertinent to us right away. That book by Dr. Harley, goes into great detail about this stuff. And it must be common sense, because it's pretty much what my fiance and I did before we read the book.<P>If you could get that book and ask your fiance to read it with you, he may just stop talking to that girl all on his own!

Hello Willing:<P>Thank you fr your reply! It is very good for me to see an engaged couple who are working with Harley's tools and making progress. You seem to have found a way to handle the material - you are right, many men don't enjoy reading such material alone.<P>I think your fiance is showing committment to your future...even though, as you discussed, his take on "truthful" did come out as a LB. I think he is ahead of many married men, and I do not think he is taking you for granted.<P>I knew going in that my fiance was a "woman's man"...someone who relates well to women, is flattered by their attention and delights in doing little things to help them out. All of this is fine with me - I believe in socializing and kindness. However, he is a PRIME candidate for a predator, because I think he is almost addicted to the approval/admiration of women.<P>He makes many efforts to please me and to enhance our relationship. He seems to regard my views and needs very seriously, and makes efforts to meet them.<P>He has indicated to me that he feels safe, comfortable, stimulated and happy within the relationship. He has marvelled at my gentle, logical approach to anger and problems. EXCEPT for this one situation, he tells me things many men hide (i.e. we were at a party and right away he pointed out an old flame to me so that I would be aware. If he's out with the boys, he says he's calling from the strip club. If he looks at erotica, he generally leaves it on the computer). I have overheard him explaining to other people how proud he is of our openness. So obviously, he values the idea.<P>Here's a tidbit about this OW. She had a relationship with a man we'll call D. They broke up. D. eventually married, and he and his wife had a baby. The OW was at the hospital when the baby was born...and D. named the baby after OW!!! The poor wife. So, she has a history of inserting herself inappropriately into people's lives. Another scenario. I overheard her on a boat cruise say that she "wanted a nibble of" a guy she was chatting with but "was afraid of his girlfriend". I like flirting, but not the disrespectful, slap-down kind.<P>Anyway Willing, I'm rambling. I think I will start with the Emotional needs questionnaire. I would like to introduce the material to my fiance without threatening him with: "you had/may be having an EA, so we're reading this!"<P>Anyway, gotta fly!<P>Robyn<BR>

Willing_To_Work:<P>Hey, if you and your finace are readers, you might want to get my favorite of the Harley books: Give and Take (if you don't have it already). It's basically a condensed version of HN/HN and Lovebusters---but with a focus on how to negotiate fairly in using the Policy of Joint Agreement.<P>If you don't have it, it'd be worth the effort to get a copy. It's usually the first Harley book I recommend for "most" people, if they're dealing with general issues.

Thank you K. <P>I will order Give and Take. Since you too are a reader. I would like to suggest "The Centerfold Syndrome" by Gary R. Brooks. My fiance and I have been reading it instead of our Harley books while we both work on coming to terms with his vs. my expectations and perceptions regarding mine and other women's appearance.

I say, why make your bed hard, before you get into it? If you are already seeing HUGE problems like this, before you get married, you can likely bet that the problems will only get worse--as most people once married, take their partners and relationships for granted and tend to become more emotionally irresponsible with time. <P>I say, ax the guy. You might want to consider why you are willing to marry into a bad situation?

I dont know about axing him, but I would sure be worried given that he is already cheating on you? If he were to use the excuse, *We arent married yet* for justification, he will find another reason to cheat after you are married, and chances are, it will be your fault, in his words andmind. Be really really careful with this guy!! I would hate to have to start my life with someone looking over my shoulder and around corners from the get go. Are you sure you have found all the skeletons in the closet? I dont want to scare you, but I would hate like H*** to see you back here in 2 years under the name BackagainMarried looking for support and saying "I should have listened".<P>I do wish you the best in whatever you decide!!!<P>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.*<P>Trueheart

Thanks for the warnings. I have some questions for those who are or have been married.<P>I guess, most men are ready to settle down before they meet the person they want to settle down with. Is it bad for a man to give up playing the field a few months after he meets the woman he wants to settle down with?<P>I was actually flattered that he wasn't searching for a wife and I happened to have the goods. Rather, my fiance didn't even think about settling down, till he found a woman to give him reason to. I know that he wasn't looking but chose me. However, he may need a be-bound (vs. a re-bound) relationship first? Is it only good to meet a man after he's looking for a wife?<P>I do believe my fiance has been emotionally and physically faithful -- and I apply a VERY stringent view of what is faithful -- for about 15 months now. Prior to that time, he was playing the field and lying to keep me around. I haven't forgotten that. Forgiven, but still very alert. Is that a bad way to start? I know it's not romantic, but I thought it was good that I'm not blind to the reality of men and women.<P>Sometimes I think the other stuff we're facing is simply me forcing issues most women don't confront until after marraige. I may be fooling myself, but I think let's deal with these issues now rather than after an affair a few years down the road. What do you think?<P>Again. Is it better to view reality before or after marriage? Am I cheating us out of the fairy tale I had hoped to trade in for devotion built on a clear view of each other?<P>I've never been married, most here are still married. I'm getting warnings from you. I want you to know my logic so you can give me the advice that comes from experience.