I am the WS in our case and I would do anything to turn back<BR>the hands of time. My story is long, so please bear with me.<P>Save the poor me syndrom and all the crap that goes with it, but suffice it to say I had a very loving Wife whom I began cheating on 8 years ago with an EA that started out innocently and lasted at least 1 1/2 years. My first EA started out completely innocently, but within 6 mo. I know it "Could" be trouble. My first PA started out short lived and not with the person I had the EA with. I "Confessed" (PA) it to my Wife, as I truely wanted to come clean and fix my "problem" which, let's face it was selfishness. It ended as distance was a factor, but more importantly I did not feel an emotional attachment to the OW, and felt I could again love my wife and was truely sorry for the pain I put her thru. The consoler we saw was a joke, so we didn't go again. However, because of the EA I started though it started out innocently for the first year, the e-Mails truely turned into an EA which after 6 mo. led to another PA. This relationship lasted 7 years. As time progressed, I felt guilty of it all, the shame and embarrassment if I was caught ate away at my soul and self confidence. A littel over two years ago, my wife discovered the relationship and I admitted it, no sense in lying. She wanted us to go to consoling, but I refused as I still had the relationship going and I wasn't going to kid anyone about fixing the problem including myself. I moved out of the house a<BR>few months later (what a mistake that was) and got an appartment. All this time, I knew I would never continue my PA as I wouldn't even let this person to my appartment let alone the town. Fortunately for my Wife and I, the OW lived over 30 miles away. <P>Last spring I moved back into the house, even though I still had the relationship going. Although my Wife never asked me if it was "Over" and never was suspicious on some of the things I was doing, I led her to believe it was over, though never confirming that, nor would I go to consoling (Big clue guys and Gals!). She went to consoling during this entire time.<P>Though I tried to break off the relationship (sometimes no-contact weeks at a time) many many times, I (Stupidly) felt sorry for the OW and would fall back to my old ways. <P>Well, my wife about 2 months ago looked at my history files and got into my covert e-mail. She saw everything. Funny thing is that you know you're gonna get caught, and I was glad I did. Now I felt like I could drive the final nail into the coffin of the OW relationship and move on with my Wife. From that day forward I did everything I could think of to convince my wife that it was truely over. No E-mails, No pager, No cell phone, you name it, I just wasn't going to go there again and I was willing to prove it. I immediately would do anything she would ask me as far as the marriage was concerned. I WANTED to go to consoling!!! I never knew how much love I had for her. It was masked before.<BR>I also began drinking heavily to numb the pain I was feeling inside as a result of what I put her thru and what I was going thru.<P>Sad to say, my Wife had told me a couple of years ago that she had met someone who came to the office to fix the equipment and that he had hit on her. He was married, a promise keeper, a man of the word, all the good things right? My Wife, being a Godly woman, shut him down in a hurry, so I saw nothing wrong with it and didn't worry about it.<P>After she discovered my e-mails, her demeanor changed. She had always been a forgiving person (I never knew her any other way), but and within a short period of time (a week or so), she became very cold to me. She hated the internet because of the pain it caused her, but now she was talking about how neat it was and how fast it was at work.<BR>Even though we individually began counsoling with her therapist, our relationship continued to disintegrate.<BR>It got to the point that she said she did not want to have "Sex" with me, as it would spoil what we once had and any hope of getting that feeling back.<BR>For the first time in my life I truely felt rejected. The few times we did make love during that time, while good, I knew something was not right. As soon as we were done, she would want to clean up as if I was some type of disease. It was horrible. The last time was a month ago. Never thought in my wildest dreams that I would feel that rejected or go that long without that closeness. She says that because we have "Sex" you think everything is OK!<P>I kept telling everyone around that knew the story, including the counsoler that there was something more wrong.<BR>I just knew it. I was doing all the things she wanted me to do to make us work, and still no response. Well, last week I went to her work and went to her computer to open up her E-Mail to see what was there. She was defensive and after numerous threats, she confessed she was talking to the "friend". She said they started talking/e-mailing about a week after she discovered my e-mails. This is a person that comes her 3-4x a year and stays for a couple of days to work on office stuff. She tried to tell me that the correspondence was only of a religious nature and that there was nothing affectionate or sexual about them, so I said if that were so, why can't I read them. She said she deleted everything and wanted to forget about it. Why didn't she print me some of the generic ones? Subsequently, I did get access to her computer and discovered that although she said she would only have contact with him every few days, there were quite a few letters, and definately from the heart with overtones. I didn't have time to skim thru everything, but they were going there no matter what she trys to say.<P>Now I feel we are in a bigger mess than ever. I'm depressed constantly. I don't want to do anything. Now the shoes on the other foot, and it does not feel good.<P>She said that she sent him a memo telling him it's over, but how can I know? She came home yesterday, upset, not wanting to talk. I asked her if she had contact, she said no. After telling her that her reaction to my question speaks otherwise, she admitted she had. She said she told him to take it home, to go back to your wife. <P>Any suggestions?<BR>

TCat, no suggestions really...just that it's great you confessed. Your A went on for a very long time....there is always fall-out and unfortunately it has taken a bigger dimension for you with W.<P>How committed are you both to keeping the M? It will take a long time for you to win back the trust but I am so sorry for your pain. Read up (I haven't been online here since a very short visit on Saturday) so I don't know if anyone has recommended Harley's How to Survive An Affair, After the Affair by Janis Abrams Spring (I think the name is right?) and the "newbie" info. <P>Take some time to take care of you so that you can reach out with patience and genuine compassion to your W. Try to talk but don't push it till she's ready. Now is the time to go for counselling--if W refuses, please go on your own so you can find your way to recovery.<P>I hope these aren't cliches. I am a WS almost 6 mos in recovery. H was so Christ-like in forgiving my Aug 2000-Feb 2001 A but now some pain is surfacing for him. It is my great fear he could fall into a revenge A but that's not his style..then again it is not my style to be a WS <P>Anyway, I just started working so can't be on daily but will try my best to follow your posts whenever possible...others will be along soon with wise advice for you...hang in and anchor yourself in hope.<P>------------------<BR>Fresh Start

Thanks for the suggestions. My wife is a wonderful woman, and I'm blessed with her grace. She is the one who kept going to counsoling and is continuing now. I just was upset at the fact that she was having an EA for the last couple months, told her counsoler about it when it first started, confessed it to a priest, then said basically it was over to the counsoler a couple weeks ago. I'm not justifying what I did. I was the one who was wrong originally, but for her to keep the EA a secret during our last couple of counsoling sessions really hurts. I did not go to counsoling while my A was going on as I didn't want to cross that line. When I confessed and went to counsoling a couple of months ago, I did it with a clear conscience. Now I'm leary, but shouldn't be because she has always been Godly and followed the word. But you know the saying "Truth is stranger than fiction", well here it is. The only problem I have now is that she talks to him for business stuff and comes to the office 3-4 x a year. His name really bugs me too, Rick, have a hard time getting out of my head, but I have to move forward. Her first reaction after I discovered the stuff while she was sitting by her computer was "How are you going to trust me when he comes here". I told her that was easy, just let me know when he's here. I told her also that since he was a Promise Keeper, maybe I should go to lunch with both of them. She said "Ya Right". So what am I to think? <BR>She doesn't know how to make me trust her, and she doesn't want me to go to lunch with them.<BR>We are going to see the consoler tonight to discuss, she thinks it's over, but we have a lot to discuss tonight. Seems like such a waste of time, but then my A most certainly was too, hate to even think about it, makes me ill.<BR>She has never lied to me until now, so you can understand why I'm so hesistant on believing that it's truly over. I never saw the "No Contact" letter she sent him last week, and she did lie about contacting Monday. She said she didn't, but then when pressed, admitted it and said she told him to "Take it home". <BR>The biggest thing I've learned thru this all is that ANYONE can have an A, and maybe from my mistakes someone can learn not to go there. But we never believe that we're capable of it. She keeps telling me all this week that she would have never let it get that far. However she confided in me that her counsoler told her that if she went his way, she might have the best sex she ever could. I'm struggling with that as I know what I have to offer, and it bothers me that I don't know what I'm up against. We definately have had the best sex I've ever experienced, but I don't think she remembers that, or maybe doesn't want to remember in her fantasy world. I'd like to talk to his wife, she needs to know. He had an A 9 years ago, so he knows the ropes. Does he believe in the word? Of course, but we are all sinners, and that's some of what he's told my W in her e-mails. So in my mind, he's setting her up so if it did progress, he/she would have an out. <P>[This message has been edited by TCat (edited August 10, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by TCat (edited August 10, 2001).]

TCat, thanks for your response. Yes, it does sound like your W is in some murky waters. Why on earth would your counselor advise your W she might have "best sex" with Rock? (What bugs you about his name? Just curious) Did I understand that correctly? You should definitely look for a new counselor if that's what he said. <P>Also, if this guy is a PK, he knows the boundaries very well and in no instance should be taking your W alone for lunch. My first instinct is you should make his W aware somehow but then again you don't want to stir the waters...it's a quandary for sure. Probably wisest to let God look after it unless He leads you to do something. (Just my opinion)<P>Everyone was shocked that I had an A (even people that MUST have known)--no one more shocked than me and H. We had NO secrets before it. One of the factors that helped me end things was I was becoming too adept at lying (I could never lie before) and I had invited OM to H and I's bedroom--we never consummated but I was at the edge. It's embarrassing and disgusting. I try not to remember the things we did. I know just how you feel on the memory issue.<P>Hope the counselling goes/went well. Hang in there, brother.<P>

Well at this point FS, I really don't have a choice but to hang in there Sister! Counsoling went really well, considering this new twist to the baggage dept. We were suppose to counsole together this time, but he wanted to see us separate then together 20/20/20. Anyway my W didn't want to be the first to go in, and all last night before we went, she was pretty aloof, which I took as she had talked to the OM. (She assured me she had not since Monday.) But as I had my session with the counsoler, I told him that I had no assurances that this WAS over, i.e. no copy of "No Contact" letter (she knows this is important), and the fact that she did say that she didn't talk to him since and then admitted she had Monday. However I do know she's extremely pressured right now at work and because of this stuff, so I'll cut some slak on this. But it's the same thing as you FS, who would have ever thought she would decieve me?<BR>Nobody would have believed that. As a matter of fact, she got the e-mail thing going when he was up the weekend after D-Day for me, and a week after that I left for Europe for two weeks! She had always packed "Love" notes in places of my suitcases so I would find them. Well guess who got the "Love" letters... She says she didn't tell him that she "Loved" him. Ok, let's just call it infatuation or in her words "affection" then... Geez. I always loved when she did that it made me feel special even though my A was going on. Probably a good reason why I never completely broke away from her. Anyway, of course since the e-mail thing was going on, I didn't get any. Pretty much tells you where she was at when you get at least 5 or more "hidden" among the stuff previously. She told me when I got back that she wanted space to see if she really missed me!!! Ya right. Anyway what's done is done, and thank God I pushed my way into her office to see what she was hiding. Our counsoler asked me how I felt about it and of course, the truth is refreshing, but sometimes you don't like the sub-zero wind, a little too cold to be refreshing. <BR>The counsoler did say that, I confirmed it in my session with him, and it did make me angry, as who knows what kind of sex they would have had, IF they had sex at all. Hell, my first times were just plain bad. She is/was a virtuous woman, and I still have a hard time believing that she would stoop as low as I was, but then again... Ya know? That's why he's working the God angle so hard. He's seeing this as quite a challenge. The real key will be when he does contact her again, and he will, what he will say. He'll give her time to think about it, I don't think he'll let it go this easily, he's a controller, he'll do anything to win, inuendos in talking etc. The good thing is that she has told me she will tell me when she has any contact and what that contact is about. I trust her on that.<BR>I told our counsoler that although I know what her track record was, I also know how low we can go, given the hidiousness of breaking this commandment. I told him that I was still very leary of the fact that she didn't show me the letter, and the subsequent contact after saying she didn't. She never decieved me before, not even white lies, although this week she claims that she used to "White Lie" a lot before. I'll tell you, that doesn't make me feel comfortable, as that in itself is a deception. I always trusted her. <BR>I told him I no longer have a pager/cell phone/e-mail/confessed for the first time in 7 yrs to a priest who is a good friend/told OW's sister I could not talk to her anymore when she called me/ am going to counsoling/told my brother who was REALLY Pissed at me, etc. All she did was tell me she e-mailed that it was over.<BR>When we were together for the last part of the session, he went over what we each needed to work on for ourselves and then said that now we could work on the marriage counsoling.<BR>He also said a couple of things for me to feel better:<BR>1. Said that she needed to write another "No Contact" letter which she could then e-mail (I stopped him there, and said that I wanted to be the one to snail mail it (to his office of course the first time as I don't want to take revenge... yet HA!)/this did not make her happy)<BR>2. He said that if there was ANY more contact, that We (counsoler and I) would contact his wife. She does need to know about this guy. He will do it again as my counsoler said. He's got a control problem, and he seeks out vulnerable people.<BR>My W says that he had an A 9 years ago on his W and he's still paying for it he says. That's a bunch of crap my Counsoler said. If he was "Paying" for it, he would have never been in the same room with a woman alone. Hell I know that, and I'm not a Promise Keeper...yet. I have a friend who is and he's told me what a guy needs to do in those situations. This guy is just working the program, window dressing.<BR>W and I had a good discussion about this stuff last night and this morning (I was in rage this morning at him for how he's set us back good thing he doesn't live closer), but she's still got the emotional baggage from this guy, she thinks he's a "Pure heart" and doesn't want his wife to know as my W feels guilt of being the OW.<BR>I told her that given the fact that he hit on my W the first time he saw her a couple of years ago, and then now when she was emotionally drained, you better believe he's got more skeltons in that closet than he's letting on. Our counsoler was the first to point that out too. When I told him that HE started to call him a lowest of low! He knows how to work the program, he's just counting on the OW (my W) in his life to be so emotionally starving that she'll do anything to keep his attention/"affections" so he can have his cake and eat it while he's here. Pretty convenient situation, no strings, married woman, married man, "God doesn't want you to divorce your husband", "nor me my wife", so we have to go thru this life of suffering... makes me sick to think of his twist, and that's why I was in such a rage this am. [censored]! Tell the truth, and most importantly don't decieve yourself. I said to my W that if you know someone is having marriage problems, and you had those problems before youself, the smartest/best thing to do as a friend is tell the Woman to go see your counsoler and tell ALL, with your S there if you really want the couple to be in harmony. Of course she doesn't believe it or better, she doesn't want to believe it. She was still trying to tell me the only A he had was 9 yrs ago, and get this....<BR>my W said that his W was having A's too. If that doesn't take the cake. I want to talk to his W just to get her side of the story with my W there. Now that would/will be interesting if this continues. Talk about justifying what he's currently doing. Just from that statement I know he's full of crap. Why would you bring your spouse down after your A 9 yrs ago? <BR>It just really irks me that this guy is in "Sales" and gets around and thinks he can get away with this stuff on his wife. Doesn't she deserve better? I told our Counsoler and my W that his W should know just because of the fact that he is in the business of seeing a lot of people throughout the year, and it's pretty handy for him to get these relationships going. Our counsoler said he's already living a double life with my W. Why wouldn't he have another or more on the side? What's gonna stop that? I always say, if you can't trust someone in the little things, how you gonna trust them in the big ones? His W needs to know, but I'm going to let that part go for now. It would/will be pretty easy for me to get the name if and when I need it. She's probably a saint. When my W was taken aback sitting in front of the counsoler when he suggested that, I said I wished someone had called my W. This thing would not have gotten this messy, and recovery would have been much swifter. Lies and deciet, horrible.<P>The good thing this morning is that she actually came in a couple of times to kiss me goodbye before going to work, so there is good hope. She says I'm just going to have to trust her. The thing about that is I will, but if I'm decieved while going to the counsoler again, like I've been the last couple weeks, know we're headed for more trouble than I ever imagined. (She is learning to quell my imagination as well, explaining things and not clamming up etc. so that helps tremendously.) This is the exact reason I didn't go to counsoling when my A was going on. It would have been a waste of my W's time and our money. Ya gotta get clean ourselves before you can work on the marriage. I'm there, and it's been no contact for the last 2 1/2 -3 mo's, and I'm liking it. It's refreshing not hiding ANYTHING! If I find out though that they have any correspondence, and it will eventually come out if they do, I will contact his wife, and I just won't care what happens to his "family" at that point. I guarrantee you it will get nasty.<BR>I put the sword down, but my gander is up big time.<P>W won't make love to me still (1 mo and counting) as she says she feels that she is doing it out of guilt. (huh?) She says that she's done it(sex)in the past because she felt guilty, that I had a need and she was just filling it. Sounds like the "I love you, but not in love thing" That's scarry. So is that why we've got kids. She reads Corinthians, and says he directed her there... yuk. She knew more than he'll ever know about love and the bible. Hell how many times did I make love to her because I felt I wanted to be close to her, as I wasn't? Ya just do it for the sake of the other person. Remember "forsaking all others"? I told her that it isn't realistic at this point to think we're "In Love" at least not from her standpoing because of this EA crap in the way. She says men are different... Ok.... Women don't need to get hard, think about that one. If I'm not emotionally involved with her, I wouldn't get turned on period. She turns me on, always has always will. Anyway, we'll let that be. I know a good portion is from the Emotional confusion, as she was passionate before this EA. [censored]! She said she never thought I would be jealous. Ya right, I've been with her 25 yrs since HS, ya don't think I know her? Counsoler told me that a good portion is that, and he's messed things up big time, and she's got to get over him. Told me it might have been impossible to reconcile if there had been a PA. I agreed, I've been her one and only, and just the thought/her fantasy of it sucks. She says she never thought about it. Maybe not, but I do, and it's gut wrenching, given the fact that he is another controller (like me, and believe me I'm desperatly trying to change) who would use her to his advantage. <P>His name is Rick (your typo) by the way, and if he was a strong person and a real PK man, he wouldn't need counsoling from a W who is having her own problems. The guy is really excellent even if he said they could have great sex. No I would never had said that, but let's be realistic, she was fantasizing about it, that's the base reason I got cut off of sex after europe. No question about that, sure there were other things going on with me, but.... she used them as the main reason, same as I did before... "It's all your fault" and she wanted this EA to end before it went to far so she could hide the guilt. She blamed me for everything during that period Europe and D-Day for her EA, so she could hide behind the deciet. I did the same thing during my A. She said many times over the last week that I was lucky that this guy lives out of town... So there ya go. Don't say it would not have gone there. It was going there, and probably the next time he was to be in town, but hopefully there can be some accountablity now. I haven't seen any yet, but I'm trusting she will come up with some.<BR>She says she will tell me when she talks to him about "Business" and will let me know when he's in town. I said "Maybe we can go to lunch together" You know what her reaction to that was.... So I am a little skeptical, but I want to trust her again. I want my old buddy back, but I want her to trust me completely this time. No more secrets.<P>Back to him, of course you know he has done this before with other women, she said he hit on her as I said, 2 yrs ago as soon as he met her. Counsoler said that he's a master of disguises and hides behind the facade of PK, the bible etc. The guy needs help, and I guess because of how this set us back in our process, I'm not very happy or forgiving at this point. I know she'll come back, but I just miss her so badly.<P><BR>[This message has been edited by TCat (edited August 10, 2001).]<P>[This message has been edited by TCat (edited August 10, 2001).]<P>[This message has been edited by TCat (edited August 10, 2001).]<P>[This message has been edited by TCat (edited August 10, 2001).]<P>[This message has been edited by TCat (edited August 10, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by TCat (edited August 10, 2001).]

Tcat,<BR> I think you should try this. "honey Im feeling very ______ I can only imagine this is how you felt all those years I was unfaithful." I know you tried to bring us closer, I remember the notes you sent and ..........<BR>I know Im angry and bitter but please help me in plain language know what I can do to bring us closer<BR> Will you please forgive me for___________<BR> What are you getting from him that makes you feel good and teach me how to do this for you.<BR>Tcat, why are you focusing so much on HIM??<BR> I suspect she enjoys seeing you torn up like she has been torn up for years, and lets face it you do deserve it. But she must love you to still be with you and try so hard to make you love her even after you broke her heart. I also suspect you focus on him so as not to face something about yourself. <BR> Anyway, look at planA. Follow it even though it sucks.<BR>Focus on her, make her feel special.<BR>good luck<BR>L.

Yes SPrincess, I've tried that, but right now she just wants to be left alone it seems. Yes I am focusing on him, even though I know in my heart that not a lot really happened.<BR>It's like I said, the shoe's on the other foot and it doesn't feel good, even if I do deserve it.<BR>I'm the kind of person that thinks he can fix anything.<BR>So of course I would do anything to make the hurt she feels go away. I just don't know what that would be and it's so<BR>frustrating. I don't like to see my bud cry anymore.<P>What I must now learn to do is forgive like she has, and never bring it up again in thought or action. I'm reading a book I picked up at the bookstore called "Bait of Satan". Talks specifically about this. What we hold bound on earth will be held bound on judgement day. Or as the Lord said "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. I have to learn to let go. That's the least she deserves for all the goodness she has given to me.<p>[This message has been edited by TCat (edited August 10, 2001).]

Whoa! Rockhead (I already despise this guy and don't even know him!) sounds so much like OM...he told me he wanted to grow spiritually, even "fasted" from his puter by lending it to me for the summer (the friendship could easily grow right? He would teach me things--not just about internet <BR> ) I thought I could help him mature in Christ. What an idiot I was!<P>What on earth did he tell your wife about Corinthians? My read is that Paul advised couples only to abstain from sex for "a season of prayer"--he may have said it's better not to marry but he also said it's better to marry than burn with desire---I take that as pretty strong direction not to withhold from each other, although I know my guilt made our sex life die and in recovery sometimes I have been hesitant feeling shame or terrified that I might think of OM (ruins it for me)<P>Maybe you shouldn't wait. This guy definitely strings them along. Bet his wife NEVER had an A--just a pickup line for sympathy. These predators know how to worm their way into a woman's heart. He's already messing with her spiritual maturity. <P>Oh, my heart goes out to you but I do rejoice in the positives that stemmed from counselling! Maybe it's time for you to start some love notes to W?<P>It sounds strange but I really wanted H to stop me while I was involved. I was terrified and promised myself if anyone confronted me I would stop it. However, I denied when H confronted me--he should have told OM hands off and that he knew what he was up to. It's so hard to draw boundary lines when messes like this happen but I can so relate to your comments wishing someone had told your W on you.<P>I hope the weekend brings some help and further healing.<P>Keep looking for the plus side and create some more reasons for her to respond. It may take some time for sex to resume but you can try to rekindle some desires by love notes, returning kisses, thoughtful surprises that she likes, etc.<BR>Can't help it--I'm a hopeless romantic who wants the good guy/gal to win every time.

Thanks FS, his name is Rick, but I definately wasn't the "Good Guy" for a long time, and she put up with it, nights she cried alone yuk!!! So SadPrincess was right in that I kinda got what I deserved. Anyway I'll take your advice. Good to see someone's been down the same path.<BR>They're all kinda the same in a way.<BR>I'm looking forward to a great weekend with my Wife.<BR>Sure glad to have her back and be back myself.

Oops..I thought it was Rock and you said it was something he came crawling out from under or something like that.<P>Anyway, so glad to hear plans for a fun weekend with your W! Yay! My H is sick with a cold and supposed to guest preach at our church on Sunday.<P>I thought of one of H's sayings after I wrote you earlier--when H was a minister he did a lot of Fifth Steps with guys on rehab programs using AA...he would tell a lot of them, It's really hard to walk forward when you keep looking backward.<P>That phrase has been ringing in my ears for a couple days as I think of my own struggles dealing with anniversary of A beginning but also celebrate 6 mos in recovery and the huge relief of no more secrets!<P>I find it so hurtful even though it is true when people say we deserve bad things when we have messed up. For me, it certainly wasn't like I planned to cheat on my cancer-ridden husband. I couldn't believe I had stooped that despicably low and felt soooo trapped. I guess I have punished myself so incredibly and in our case feel my H was punished for being a true man of God by forgiving me and choosing to honour our marriage vows even after I had broken them--it makes me really scared of being told how dumb or evil I was, etc. Sometimes I think not too many people respond when I post questions or vent here since I sort of beg them not to be too harsh with me...sometimes I wonder if I should hold back sharing the major victories but you never know who may be helped by your own sharing here and I sure find it stretches me and helps me wrap my head around things...hearing others' perspectives and gleaning insights and just finding people who either understand or just are supportive. <P>Anyway, sorry--I keep talking about myself when I mean to be there for others. I do hope the weekend works out beautifully and you will have some more good news to share by the weekend's end <P>You are on the right path!

T<BR> Didnt mean to sound like I thought you deserved it. I wouldnt want anyone to go through this. I was talking from a BS point of view and so could relate more to your wife, and how she must be feeling. hope your weekend is filled with smiles. please re-read my original and tell me how you have tried and what her response was.<BR>good luck<BR>L.

Well I know what you meant SadPrincess. I now know how it hurts. When you're in the fog, you just don't see anyone but yourself, then when it's over, like FS said, you feel terrible. Anyway this am is going well, had GREAT Dreams last night while cuddling, and they were very religious actually. St.Paul telling me everything was going to be ok, in fact, had visions of greatness! Hope you both have a great weekend and thanks for the support and the ability to vent. Don't need/want to do that to her anymore.<P>Thanks!

Well gals a long recap and I need some vision and guidance as your insight has help me understand myself if nothing else. The weekend went really excellent for the most part. Told her Sat am that I forgave her for everything/anything, whatever that was, it really doesn't matter anymore, let's move on. She told me some details, so minor to me it isn't even funny, she thinks I really care, but it's my misunderstandings that I want clarification on. She says she's afraid to say anything as I'd use it against her down the road. Well, maybe the old me, but if she really knew the good side of me before and the how I am now, it really doesn't matter. I just like the clarification to cleanse my own mind, these thing happen. Anyway, had a band Gig for my drummer and she came along with the kids. We had a cabin up north and it was really fun. Fishing/Sun/Nice drive. I wanted her to come, or she could have stayed home, didn't care, I just wanted her to relax as the poor thing is so stress from her job and me and my insecurities at this point. But I blew it Sun afternoon by mentioning OM and how I was replaced, I felt very low about it, and she was back in limbo again as she said she hadn't thought of him. She said that bringing him up really upset her and she said she tries not to think of him. <P>I have to tell you another thing, I'm an accomplished musician, and am requested to play at a local bar to back up the band. He told her I went there cause he use to do the same thing. He said he went to look at other women! That has never been my problem, and my W knows that when she's thinking clear, thing is, yes I do get hit on sometimes I've been told I have great looks, been asked to go to car/apt to see what we can do ya right, but I've never been interested in bar women or from any other woman that's hit on me. I said if I wanted to look at other women, I'd go to the Wal-Mart or Target anywhere, not a bar!- I'm a musician, why do I want to look at women at a bar? The cats there like my abilities, that's it. He's playing the "I'm better than that now" tape for her, and she's buying it. Bet he doesn't even know music, I'm a creative person, music, cars etc., I don't need to prey on women for my "Creativity", and..... HE SMOKES! UUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGG! so frustrating. W wouldn't have ever accepted this before, just unbelievable.<P>She told me again Sunday nite that she wasn't sure if she wanted to commit to any man for the rest of her life, let alone me! (Huh?) We had a nice time though later Sunday nite together/back rub/she hasn't let me relax her for a long long time, I mean years, usually it's... that's enough, and I take that as, let's not go any farther, or you're making me tense. Well that didn't happen last night, so it was a huge step forward, I felt like I could make her feel good again just being the me she hasn't known for years. But after she told me about the rest of her life stuff and that she wasn't ready to commit, I couldn't help but continually think of the Corinthians stuff, and the fact that she really was already committed to me as it was written. I said she did that a long time ago, and not out of guilt.<P>W said I gave OW best 1/2 of my life during that time and her the crap 1/2. After thinking about it though, counsoler said it best. "How could you give anyone the "Best", you could only give 1/2. You think of all the 1000's of places OW begged to go and you said NO!, and you couldn't be there, and really didn't want to be there, and the places you went with W and either way you were only 1/2 there. Now I only want to give "Best" from what I know now, and what I can give and do give and have the capability of giving is even more, but I don't, because of the trust issue will get thrown in my face as it has for the last 2mo since I came clean and true, and it's unbeliveably frustrating. She doesn't trust it's real, or that I'll not hurt her, add to that the fact that she "Trusts" the OM because he was only there "Spiritually, and would NEVER hurt her" Ya right, give it time... ask his wife what really happened 9 years ago, what have you really done to my W, and my family never mind myself, husband, mr. PK'r small m emphasis! Funny thing is now she says "I read too much into everything, he's not like that". Right, that's why she's willing to let me see all they've talked about, that's why she wants to get it out in the open and for US to move on. Pleeeeeaaassseee give me a break I'm gaging! <P>I truely never wanted to hurt anyone during the entire time my A was going, although I was frustrated and a user, so that's really why it went on so long. That's why it started out so innocently for so long with the E-mails. Now that I can give fully to her, it hurts cause I see how short of a time I have to give all of me to her, hell I truely could die tommorrow and then what? But she can't accept that because of OM and the crap that's been said by them, no matter what she tries to say, given the fact that she is trying to continually blame me for her lack of trust, even though logic tells her otherwise, her "Feelings" are overriding reality... What we did this weekend, something as simple as a cabin in the North woods, playing with the band and her watching... I could name at least a few women that would die for that, but I'm letting that go. I'm a keeper, though she is wanting to release me. As her words just a few months ago rang.... "some day you'll know just how much I loved you." He could never give that to her, she's living in a fantasy world of deception every time she thinks about him.<BR>Now the shoes on the other foot and I see how stupid that is, and my OW had no committments or strings except to give me undivided attention and I fell into that trap for some time. It ain't worth it, but she's got to come to her own conclusion.<P>Although she is making steps forward, last nite puts the kabash on good progress. She continually says that he's not a factor. Pure BS, counsoler knows better, I know better. She was there a couple years ago, but she can't see that. Sad part is, when I find that special woman I'm looking for, and I hope she will be there, I'm afraid too much time will have passed, and his wedge/deception to her will be too great, and she will never trust. Kind of the bitter icing on the cake. No matter what I do, there is doubt, deceit and the thought of deception in her mind about me and me of her and him now. Ask me anything/follow me anywhere I say please do it. She tells me that there could have been nothing there... she knows it. That's only cause she's with me, and he's with his W. She got very upset when I said I would call his W and tell what kind of PK he was, if she wanted to help him, you would want them to recover. He's not a very good person to her or my W. He's being like I was. I know, it's terribly deceptive and nasty. Well when you're out of the fog, what that really means is "I'm marrried", "You're married" "we like eachother", "Admire each other" "Could be with each other, given better circumstances" but we have to "Accept" what God has chosen as a path for us in this life. UUUUUHG, Sick but reality in their minds, and he planted it there for his benefit. I know what he's thinking/planning, "Yes if we really were clear of the obsticles, we could have something as I totally admire/respect you as a person, but you are already taken, and so am I." That makes it convenient when setting up a serious non-committed relationship longdistance and really helps breed mistrust in the spouse that she is "Stuck" with. He is saying in so many words is that she can trust him with anything, if circumstances were right, as he would "Never" do what I did, because he learned from his mistackes, not like your husband. Makes me so sad that she bought that lie/doubt and deciet. <P>What really pisses me off is the fact that she thinks they're "Spiritually connected, and if that were true, let him sleep in the same bed with her for a month and not want to make love to her cause it's just a spiritually thing for the guy... I'll guarantee that he'd be gone in a couple of nights after all the work he's done on the mind there if she didn't follow his program. She really believes he will forget about all of this, that's what she tells me. Right, All she has to do is think about the overtones and the times he touched her/grabbed her/innuendos. Bunch of deception and lies. But you don't see that when you're in the fog. Given her love for the Lord, I think she might not really keep going forward with this, but he's certainly not going to give up. She even said "He won't try to contact me as he doesn't want to jeopordize his family." So again it's about him/her. That's a LOT different than saying.... "He's a PK man and he really wants the best for you and me, and he and his wife". I'm wondering if my W is thinking about how much time it is before his kid is out of the house, and ours for that matter so they "Could" have a future. So sad. <P>But going on what I was talking about before what he said.... And if you can't "Accept" what God has chosen for you, you will have to be alone (like poor me), according to Corinthians/and the other verses in the Bible. Makes me sick to my stomach, I need a pill, he's one slick operator. He's actually better then I am in the control/controllig dept, this guy has perfected his program. Then again, I think my W has really said some things to play into his hand as she's told me that it's not only him. So the things she told him or expressed in her affections must have led him on as well. Such a short time in reality and look where it has gone and how it has divided us/our family and our future. I hope for his sake he never meets me. She says I should be mad at her too, well, I'm over that part. You don't keep anger, especially at your own flesh, but I wnat to rip out that dagger that has been thrusted upon me and my family/kids/wife by him.<P>So we cuddled a lot Fri/Sat/Sun nite, and that makes me feel that I'm worthy of her to a some degree, and last night for the first time, even though we had a small conlict/misunderstanding, SHE cuddled me... YEA!, and I fell right to sleep. She's so beautiful, I've never felt so close to her/anyone. She even made me stay in the room and talk to her about the problem, I hardly remember what it was, but at least I was worthy of discussing it, and worth the attention. That was definately making some forward steps. It use to be, and this was since we've been married, I'd get upset, go watch TV and fall asleep downstairs, and think about it the next day/week. OW never let conflict get in the way. W didn't do that, sad to say, sleep and avoidance were always there to cover up the problem. OW Never would let me be upset, and would ask "what's wrong" "what are you thinking" always gave me undivided attention (Wm Harley), wanted to listen to my stories, and would get pissed if I said something wrong... good!, but would make sure it was resolved before going forward with anything. She always said "I'm not like her (W)". That pisses me off everytime I think of her (OW) line. No you aren't like her, that's why I'm not with you!, I normally have zero thoughts of her on any day, my W was a saint and an angel, she reminded me of Mary, always faithful, always looking out for my interest, avoiding conflict(though in hindsight, we didn't get resolve either). OW did stop me immediately, way before I my thoughts got distructive, she learned that angle well and worked it to her advantage. <P>If there was good about the badness of it all, it's that I learned that if my W and I or anyone else for that matter are to succeed, it is that we must learn to resolve anything before we start a new day. I really always wished my W did that, and would push her into a corner when we/or I (usually one sided) to make her come out fighting. I wanted resolve. I hated going to bed upset, and that went on for years. I could see what it was doing to me/us but I didn't know how to stop it, except by keeping pushing her into a corner. I knew many years ago because of all the unresolve and "let me sleeps", there would be someone who would come alone and "Understand" me. We didn't discuss/resolve before, I would go into my corner, and it almost destroyed us, and gave me the reason for my EA with OW and hers with OM as well. Unfortunately she found her corner to go to and now since she never learned how to disapate/resolve the anger before that we had, she allowed someone else to hear her vent/cry/give her hope for something else, as in a future without me. Unfortunately She will never learn to resolve, or will learn to resolve with someone else blame me for the conflict, I just never liked the way I woke up in the am. <P>I always admired the advise of people when they had their 25/50th anniversaries, and they would say the key to a long and happy marriage is, never let the sun go down on your disagreements, settle disputes before the sun rises. Don't go to sleep angry. I and she did often, no communication, no resolve. Says to do this in the bible too, Psalms, proverbs etc. We never did that. That was so much of our problem. Never getting resolution, before sleeping. Well, we did that in my mind last night. So that was great, and a big step forward, even though some of it hurt some (don't know if I want you thing), ya gotta know the truth though ,even if it hurts sometimes, and that's ok at least she stopped me before going off in my corner and think about other things/people/comparisons and air it.<BR>I reall appreciate you're inputs as it helps me understand things from a Womans side, or the W side or the BS side. So you two have helped tremendously even your comments SadPrincess about how I was bad. I know that, and your candor does help. I was bad, but now I'm truely good, handsome, and have more to offer someone than ever before, am/will be a dedicated man, but now it's frustrating as she's not sure if I'm what she wants. Says it's a new me, and she's got to get use to it. I understand to a certain degree, but I'm a better guy than ever all the way around, honest, true, loving, and would do anything for the right woman, but now the trust is an issue, and unfortunatly I take it as an excuse for her not get close again as she has someone else to "Trust". The girl I use to know forgave within a short period, now holds on to grudges brought a lot out of bad things I did before my change/conversion/No drink etc. She brought a lot of that out last night, which at least we were talking, but it doesn't make a person feel good as most of the nastyness on my part came because I knew something was up, even told her that she had a plan while it was going on, and though she denide it, told her it would come out eventually. Knew that because and that's not the old person I knew. The old person was the epitomy of forgiveness. Now this new twist/OM has changed her. She denies that he changed her denial of the truth. She wants something to hold against me at this point and so she can hold onto him (in a spiritual sense of course! ) Well she won't see that till she gets out of the fog, and releases him. She says she has, but I know better. She doesn't want to "Committ". Sorry, we already did that a long time ago, but whatever was said between them has changed her beliefs. She thinks she can walk away from us and be alone and happier, another deception. He planted that. I don't know how, I don't know the details, but there's no question about it. That's why he's so dispicable. How to drive a stake in a family, our kids are suffering as a result. So sad. Friday night I kept dreaming about the scripture where you are to love your spouse like your own body, I understand that now, and would never intentionally harm her. She's truely everything I could want. <P>She told my Bro after starting the EA with OM, the only reason she's with me is for the kids, and if not for that, she'd be gone. She admits she basically opened the door for him when he was up here working.<BR>He helped her plant that in her mind, he's such an understanding person! He doesn't even know me, or he would have kept his mouth shut about the bar/me going there for women. So unfair.<BR> <BR>Funny thing is I asked her last night, if she was with any man, including him, if they would be satisfied staying in the same bed for a month with a woman he was absolutely head over heals with and not have any kind of relations and be satisfied. She said he would leave. I said well there you go, does that not say something about me as a husband? Am I even talking about leaving? I am committed to making her happy. If she allowed a stranger/om in her bed, she would have trusted him, and they'd already be there, and you know why? Because of what Corinthiang Does say. Do not hold yourself back from each other except in prayer - Godly thoughts, or Evil thoughts will come between you - Satan/Lust/OM/OW. That's why our counsoler says in his book that the sooner the relations start again the better, he's following on the principles of the Bible. That's what Conrinthians are about. He's put the twist that she is to do it out of duty read that as Guilt. And knows from her responses that she will NEVER do anything out of Guilt again, so he wins again and I lose. What a game. SOB And she tells me she's not going to do anything out of guilt again. GREAT, I throughout our marriage have looked to Corinthians, and she knows that. AND Never have I said out of guilt, but from the Love prospective, we must have it no other way. He's twisted the beauty of the scriptures. And then she gets upset because she says I "want more" when I'm with her. Well, it's been a long time and I've had the best, and she's it period. I miss her. Is it not normal for a husband to desire his wife? Is this exactly what is being referred to in Corinthians? Would you not rather desire eachother, than the evil of someone else? Not out of Guilt but of love? I even had a stupid thought of the OW last night because I felt "Sorry" for her for all the things I did to her and the fact that she would quote Corinthians. Given how "dedicated and devoted" she was to me I felt sorry for her....YUK. Fortunately I talked to my W about it and the thought of her immediately dissapated, it was a cleansing, as it helped me focus on my W's goodness again and I was immediately back on trak.<BR> <BR>Now she's deciding if she's going to stay with me because she has to be the kind of person the word of Corinthians out of guilt, not as of before out of Love, she would tell me about those kind of things because she WANTED to be that kind of person not because she HAD to because of their talks. It's so sad how someone can put a twist on a mind that had been so strong to the point of bringing the WS back. That's why it's so important for me to have "No Contact" with OW and she with OM, but I know she only sees his "Goodness". These people have a vested interest in telling you their version of the truth. I know the OW in my life did that all the time, so I know how it twists you up really F's up your mind. Her biggest peeve was that I never went to Church with her, always wanting to know my take on a scripture, she constantly talked about it... YA RIGHT! Talk about blastphamy, I might listen to you're babbletalk, but I'm NOT going to walk it. Everytime I would see my wife read a scripture, or say a prayer/rosary, I would literally melt. <P>That's what kept me, her devotion to the Lord and me, the good wife, things a WS should honor, any man should respect and honor. The one thing I will take away from all of this is that when I find the woman who trust/honors/charishes me again, is that I will know how to give, love, and resolve conflicts rather than turning things inward and self destructing and looking outside the woman and my relationship. He's obviously NOT learned that from his A 9 yrs ago, as he hit on my W 2 yrs ago and because of her own advances etc, he's going outside his marriage again. Why can my Wife not see that he will do this to her if they get together, Love/infatuation is truely blind. Certainly I've learned how to build a good relationship and want a life partner for that. I've learned that I don't want to live alone, that I deserve companionship and happiness. I do not deserve this. If that's what she choosen for herself, or for herself and OM, I don't know. I don't know how old his kids are and when they will be out of the house, maybe that's the plan, vision whatever, because of what they've talked about, and their thoughts of what "Gods/Satan's deception" plan for each of them apart or together. She'll deny that, but her talk which now is usually about things I've not done, or things I already know to do with the kids, and lack of respect for me when someone else enters the room speaks volumns. Her comment that she feels like our teen daughter when she talks about boys, when my W was referring to him yesterday, that she "Should'nt" miss him... I don't think she even realized she said it. I was mentally there 2 years ago and treated her the same subtlingly belittling way. I never thought she was capable of it, but that's when you know clearly someone else is on a person's mind. Told her that I could tell when a couple was getting along or somewhere else. That's one of the signs. Just so sad today for that and us.<P>Just a good weekend, but sad morning... thanks for listening. Please help me understand some of this if I'm off track. This is the same stuff I would talk to our counsoler about, but it's tough to get in, and my heart is low. At least here I can vent, though she doesn't like it as she hates me to tell her or anyone else things for that matter. I know she would like to keep it a secret not contact him, but the way it's going I don't know. That would be easy. My thought pattern right now reminds me of a Dwight Yokam song I sing and like... "Thousand Miles from No-Where." People say I'm a dead ringer singer for him. I'm just to the point that I don't care what it does to him.<P>I'm so sad we've come to this, and I know she is too. She wanted to confront the OW so that she could be sure I was hers, and that's where I'm at now. She wants to protect him, and his wife (whom she says cheated on him), but she doesn't care about my feelings, only his and hers. I want to know if I'm wasting my time. I guess the trust of her heart is my issue too, he took hers away from me and she I might not get it back. She's comfortable giving it to him, and even my counsoler says he's lowest of low. So sad.<BR>"I've got teardrops in my pockets, echos in my head, and all that I keep hearing, are the cruel cruel things that you've said" -Dwight-<P><p>[This message has been edited by TCat (edited August 13, 2001).]

TCat, my dear brother, I almost panicked when I read your message tonight. Your W is making the same mistakes I made. I got really tired of taking care of everyone else and OM played on it--these guys must have a club with an exclusive instructor!!! OM played on my spiritual sensitivities and I was ready to tumble--he was only too pleased to "catch" me. Oh, I feel so heavy for you.<P>TCat, somebody has to intervene here. It's very delicate--you don't want to tick W off but this guy has got to go! Obviously he is not relenting. W is NOT respecting you or showing love to you by cutting off contact. It's been difficult in some ways but I have found things so much better due to 100% no contact. Your W is entering fog big time. H tried to forbid me and I would not hear of it. But I bet if he confronted OM and told him he knew just what he was up to, the tall coward would have run FAST. Pray about this and talk more to your counselor. I hope some men will come along here too as you need some male input into your situation. <P>But on the bright side, don't discount the good weekend. It sounds like it was really good. Don't worry too much about bringing up OM--it's painful but the reality of both of your As will not disappear and you will need to discuss things that really hurt. It's taken my H and I till now for him to start asking me the really hard questions. I told him a lot of things but some things I held back as I wasn't sure how he would feel/react--I tried my best to tell whatever truth I felt he could handle and would show him I was not lying anymore.<P>The cuddling happened. Your W is seeing the new you and it will take TIME for her to become convinced. I don't think your W even knows what she wants (from my own similar experience I suspect that anyway--in my case I was supposedly the stronger Christian--ya, right!) Keep showing your love. Try hard not to panic. I know that's tough. You are hearing from God that healing is in the future. Cling to Him and ask Him to guide you as to how to show your love. Maybe have a good look at Ephesians 4 and 5 which teaches about the family and how Christ loves the Church. I think you should tell your priest what is going on. <P>Jesus, I just lift up TCat before you and ask that You rescue his W from the darkness Satan is sucking her into. Deal with OM and reveal his evil motives to TC's W. Help her to return to Your light--to live above compromise and close to you and that their family might know the blessing of wholeness and contentment that You designed. Please increase T's faith and hope daily. Give him creative ideas on how to reach out.<P>TCat, you also may find the book of Hosea VERY interesting. Very different from your wife's attachment but Hosea married a prostitute and was instructed by God to be faithful to her. He was an amazing man. It may bring some interesting insights into how to love your W.<P>I'm sorry for getting a bit preachy. I always hope people recognize one person's reply here is not some great revelation but a response from the heart in which hopefully they have offered something to help and the reader will have the wisdom to choose or reject the ideas.<P>SadPrincess, I am so sorry--I did not mean to misrepresent you--I also was just thinking from a WS point of view. It's good we can each share our perspective. I also hope some guys come to support our brother here along with us.<P>TCat, don't give up!!! Sister-in-Christ hugs to you. One day at a time.

TCat,<P>FS asked that some other people respond to your posts. I have read through them and quite frankly the only thought I had is you don't have a clue. Sorry, for being so blunt, but you don't.<P>You are pissed at this. You are pissed at that. You are pissed at OM. You are pissed at your W. <P>Well, my advice is knock it off. You handed your W to OM or any man that showed her any affection and devotion at all. For 7 years you had an affair, and I am sure were not much of an H to her. Then you post innane things such <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I was the one who was wrong originally, but for her to keep the EA a secret during our last couple of counsoling sessions really hurts. I did not go to counsoling while my A was going on as I didn't want to cross that line. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>What line, lying to the counselor??? How about the line of lying to your W? <P>TCat, here is my advice to you. Forget the OM, unless you sit down and have a serious talk with yourself, if he leaves there may be another, because you have forgotten something.<P><B>She is still recovering from 7 years of lies, cheating, and a spouse that didn't give a s__t about her. </B> <P>She may yet decide that you are not worth being married to,because any changes you have made in the last few months can not be believed given your 7 year affair. <P>You think her withdrawal and reluctance to deal with you is ALL about the OM? Your nuts. The OM has taken advantage of a seriously neglected W. YOU did that Mr. not OM. Even if OM magically vanished from her mind, she still has to deal with what you have done and things like what marriage means to you.<P>You have the nerve to say you play in clubs, but don't look at other women, when you were married and had an affair going on the side. How noble of you.<P>TCAT, my advice to you is very simple. Forget about her EA and start working on this marriage as if you were the one that screwed it up. The OM isn't the problem and never was, you were the problem. So fix the problem, you.<P>I figure if you work really hard at it in about 2 years you may have the marriage back, then again if you keep focussing on the OM, you may have the opportunity to select another W.<P>Which option do you want? Your choice.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Thank you for your input FS. I'm afraid my W is not totally honest with me and for that I am disheartened, but am growing stronger in the faith that the Lord has provided me and will provide me. It is inner strength that is pulling me thru and making me stronger. I am not giving up, but I am comming to the reality that her emotions are still there and she's not letting go, and may never. An affair of the heart is sometimes hard to kill, and he's so well versed in his program. He has such a hold on her heart that the what if's and could have beens may never go away. She is holding onto him so tight eventhough she says she is not, I know she's lying and you know just from my explainging that this is so. However I had to leave church as I was practicing bass with our group, and I just picked my son up from the emergency room for a minor problem (fishhook in foot) very minor, I prayed in the sacristy about this, to Mary and Jesus, and I feel very at ease about the whole situation. She doesn't want me to approach her, Ok I will not anymore. This same thing happened years ago, another time, another man, and EA. She said there was nothing going on all she said at the time that all I was interested in was Sex, and we never resolved that/him until recently with counsoling during the last couple weeks. It finally came out, and I thought my suspicions over the last couple months were the result of that old EA starting up again, but I was decieved again.<P>To be honest with your I am completely at ease at this point. No, I am not giving up, but realizing what will be will be. She will probably never trust me again as a result of their talk, her guilt, Corinthians and the deception and doubt she has been led into. But as my Brother keeps telling me, I will be a better loving person because of this, and honorable and true to my word again. I will walk away from this knowing I could do no better, and love no harder, given no more. I will be able to enter a new relationship free from guilt, maybe with the same OW that did love me, I'm sure that will be there. Some day she will realize how much I was willing to sacrafice for her, and how much I did love her, and at least when I am judged, the Lord will ask her and she will have to admit to it. I will be loved again, I am worthy, I am handsome, I am Godly and virtuous (again). I know I could be a clergy person again, I always wanted to be a priest. He has saved me and that's what counts. I care no longer how she judges me, it really doesn't matter. She has already decided what she will do, I know that, she's not a person who does not plan. She's very smart, and capable. She knows she will be "In Love" again too, I think she's just biding her time, getting along. After I was caught and came clean, she basically came on to him, maybe not in a physical way, but emotionally within a week or so. I never had a chance again, I'm resolved to that. Maybe tomorrow will shed a different light, but I am at peace, and I think only of my 5 children at this point. They are too young to be put thru anything, she won't do that now, but if there's one thing I know, she's already got a plan, she's not one to leave anything to chance. Her talk over the last few weeks has been me and mine, nothing about the things I've done for the family as in remodeling apts for our future and getting them paid for. Even our Priest said that her talk hold me of no value she doesn't think you are worthy were his words. I have come to terms with that tonight. <P>I have started to go to a mens breakfast as of Saturday, this helped as I helped a Father there cope with a Wayward son who was leaving his wife after many years. He told me he had gone thru 12 yrs of religious schooling was a marriage counsoler and now is living with his GF 3 doors down from wife and kids. So sad. Maybe I can help others if us.<P>I'm tired of being blamed for every little thing, treated in a belittling way and looked at as if I was crazy. Did I tell you she wants me to see a Psychiatrist? Counsoler thinks it might be good, I think it would be good to, but she's convinced I will never be OK until I'm on medication, and resolve my issues. OW kept telling me it would come to this, she would saY I'm crazy and insist I'm on medication, sedate me. She kept crying and telling me in the last days that there was nothing wrong with me, I was perfect. Well, I wouldn't say that, I did wrong. I need/needed to atone for that. I needed to come clean, needed at least for my kids sake, mine and my wife's come clean and sin no more.<P>But I am done begging for forgiveness. I have been forgiven and am Loved by him.<P>Thanks for listening.

TCat,<P>I cannot believe what I am reading. You have tried for how long to rebuild your marriage, a month, maybe a few months, and you are giving up, because she is lying to you. <P>Hello! What the heck have you been doing for 7 years, and she has found out several times and you continued to lie and go back to OW. And then you say, well, you give up maybe OW will take you back because she thinks you are perfect.<P>Please tell me you are kidding. Please tell me that you are kidding about being converted. Please tell me this all a hoax, and that you really are fooling around with us.<P>Have you read anything on this site about rebuilding a marriage??? If not please do so, because your effort is so weak as not to be considered.<P>You are just looking for a way out of this marriage and not to be the bad guy right? Of course she turned to OM after dday. What did you expect her to have faith in you and yet another vow to leave the relationship you have held between you and your W for 7 years. Give me a break.<P>Reread you posts here, and look at it from your W's perspective. If she read this she would just shake her head and say " I figured he was trying to get out of the marriage without guilt." The getting religion, the leaving OW, it was all an act. He is going right back to her when the going gets tough.<P>TCat, if you are for real, do some reading here. It will open your eyes. If not here go get Surviving an Affair, by Harley. After you have done that quit patting yourself on your back, and get to work brother. You have much to atone for and not a lot of time to do it.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL,<P>Why are you Just Learning? What great pain are you bearing that you need to attack? Can I not feel discouraged? I have been the low one here and I admit it. Does that mean two wrongs make things right? You don't know what I have done to atone, and yet you trash me. Why are you so angry? I only discuss things here so that I can understand. I will sin no more, I will hurt no more, I will offend no more. Am I trying to get out of our marriage, am I even considering going back to the OW? Are you kidding? No way. Do I give up? No way, did I give up control of trying to change her views? Of course. I have no control over this. What will be is his will. Where is your anger comming from? <BR>I feel very bad for you seriously. I wish my W no harm, as I said, I've cause enough. I remain committed for for the first time in many years. It is a new walk for me and like I said, I like it. Maybe my imagination is going wild about my W, do I have any assurances? Did she? I should have given them. I didn't. I asked your people for answers, guidance, help in understanding. Is that not true? Not accusations and justifications of what is happening. What happened to you and your Spouse, please tell?<P>And God has Blessed and will Bless.<BR>T

TCat, I shared with my H about your struggles. He highly recommends Dr. James Dobson's book, "Love Must Be Tough." I think if you read it, you will see not only how to deal with your wife but where JL is coming from.<P>I hope it's ok that I posted for some men to come and help you--I hope a few more will join in. <P>Here on MB, you receive a variety of perspectives--some you will like, some not so! But you need to look for whatever truth lies in those words. JL is right on that you have a lot of reaching out to do to your W---it's fantastic that you have come to the Light and live in the truth now and are doing your best and leaning on God and your spiritual leaders for help to change. But your W will need a lot of time to believe it. <P>Also, your W is concerned about you. If you also agree you should see a psychatrist, please do. TCat, I suffer from chronic depression caused by hormonal imbalance (and I believe from childhood sexual abuse which I have mostly put behind me) I have taken antidepressants off and on for about 14 years. I kept feeling better and thinking, Hey, I'm ok now. But I would crash and become useless to my family and myself repeatedly. One day I finally decided that since I am healthy in other ways, this is just my illness as diabetes is for another person. Mental illness is horribly misunderstood. It does not mean you are insane and we need to remove the stigma by facing it head on. TCat, I can be happy and live a happier life firstly because of Jesus Christ and the love of my H and family and also because I can cope while taking my meds daily. I have tried to accept that for me, it may mean the rest of my life.<P>I also found my thinking screwed up SO bad during the A that I desperately need help. A psychatrist can see things that others cannot at times. So please don't fear it. You have bend to your W's wishes to a large degree while not becoming a doormat if you intend to prove your new outlook on your M with her. <P>On that topic, I dont want to be judgmental but perhaps you should lay off the bar gigs until you and W are stronger and more secure. It will mean a lot to her. She is worth the sacrifice, right? And perhaps you will land some better gigs where people can appreciate your music.<P>I sure hope this doesn't sound like a lecture. I just am so concerned for both you and your W and also writing in a hurry before going to work. <P>Surviving An Affair is a terrific book. I think after that one you would find, His Needs, Her Needs helpful. It's difficult to see what the other person wants when we are hurting. I know we recommended a bunch of books and you don't have time to read 24/7 but first go with How To Survive an Affair and or Love Must Be Tough. It really will help you a great deal.<P>Sounds like you need to get away to a quiet spot alone and think things over. <P>Glad your son is OK. Kids do the craziest things! I remember when my 14 D was a baby and fell off the stairs, I was so upset and took her to Emerg--the young intern listened to my panicky ravings and assured me she would be fine since babies heads are made of rubber!!! I made sure never to let that theory be tested!!<P>You do have support here. Even the seemingly harsh words are meant to call to our attention issues that need to be addressed asap. Keep posting and take care!

TCat, just bumping your post. I asked Lostpup if he will think about "visiting" you here--he is also a musician who believes in God. He works nights so may take him a bit to reply.<P>Hope this post goes through. My computer is acting up a bit the past couple days--I'm in a grace period with renewing my server.<P>Please post so we know how you are doing.<P>