This is a reply to both yoda and tears... I just had a chance to get on the computer and see these posts. Ever since I know I can see anything I want to see I am almost afraid to sign on. <P>I haven't been strong enough to leave or kick him out. And whenever I feel strong enough to do so, my H makes promises and keeps them for a while... tho I suspect that as soon as he thinks I'm relaxed he will do it again. That's been his pattern.<P>I can't help but think he might not still be with me now if I hadn't stumbled on the truth by mere luck every time he gets started. The longest time I stayed in the dark about it, he almost met the woman. He swears he did not meet her, tho I saw e-mails planning to do so. I have to say I never saw anything confirming that they did. And he says it just never happened for one reason or another. He never gives me the reason I long to hear: that he didn't meet her because he felt it would be wrong to do so...<P>I know he called a counselor last week, but hasn't set up an appt. His excuse was that he wasn't sure about my availability schedule... but I know he just sort of drops the ball. <P>I think he actually believes he won't do anything again when he promises not to. Then when he does it again he himself can't say why he does. He only tries the same old line- that he does it because it means nothing to him ... he can't ever say what I want to hear. Which is "I"m sorry, I feel horrible, and I know I shouldn't do this." And yet he's unlike both your H's, in that he claims to love being married to me, and that I am all he wants. I guess he wants something else also- and it kills our friendship and all my trust.<P>I forgive him, I've forgiven him readily many times... but I don't trust him. And trust is what he claims will end it. Does that make any sense?<P>I try to undersatand that... but I find myself wishing he'd understand that he's the one who undid my trust and he needs to rebuild it. He doesn't seem to want to do that. He never speaks of it. I wait, but he acts as if it's all forgotten... Forgets I cried all night- forgets it hurt me.<P>I'm sorry. I feel like I'm half rambling. I'm just trying to sort this all out still.<P>I feel so grateful that he still hasn't actually been with anyone physically-- and keep wondering why this undoes me as if he has. Just knowing what he has says to other women, and that he cannot say those things to me unless I ask... <P>Yoda, I hope you don't be with someone else if you truly love your husband. It would end it. And Tears, thanks for the advice I know I should seek counseling. My new job and classes I must still take fill my days so completely... Work- which is teaching children is very therapeutic- but I know I need counseling. I just want him to do it with me.<P>Right now, rebuilding my marriage is the most important thing in my life and heart. I am waiting to see if it's important at all to him.<P>I've tried the turning off the computer thing, and it cause him to use a phone instead- which seemed so much worse. And he simply found a way to get online anyway... I guess I'd rather be able to know if he does...<BR>Jena

Dear Jena<P>Im glad your able to forgive your H. I wish i could find it in me to do the same with my H. <BR>Anyway i believe you need to express your forgiveness to him. Tell him how committed you are in saving your marriage, but in order to do this you both need to get C together. Then try and get a C to see you both after work or maybe on the weekend, or even see whether they can come to your home. Through your counselling session you may learn your H true reasons as to why he goes online with other women. I think that it helps when someone(counselor) qualified asks the right questions in order to pinpoint to the answer. I hope i make sense here!<P>YOU SAID...<BR>I've tried the turning off the computer thing, and it cause him to use a phone instead- which seemed so much worse. <P>Would i be correct in saying that he does phone sex instead when the computer is off. Is this what you mean?<P>Take care<BR>TOS

Hi Jena,<P>Hope you are doing a little better today. I know what you mean by using the phone, my husband has spent over $150.00 in phone cards. and he is the cheapest person i know. so it really hurts extra. i guess in my fantasy mind, i wish he would spend that money on me. really though it is not the money. it is the principle. yesterday i called him to ask about renewing our lease. i didn't know what to do because he is leaving in 2 weeks. and he will be in ocs for 4 months. so anyway i wanted to get a feel for what he wanted to do. he said that will figure it out in the next couple of days. i asked him if he wanted to come over, and maybe ahve dinner. he said he would. he got to the apartment before me and cleaned up. he took out the trash, did the dishes, made up the bed and watered all the plants. i gave him a kiss and said thank you. he must of felt sorry for me. i never smoke in the house, but right now i am. i have ashtrays full of cigg butts, and tissues and i even took dramamine to help me sleep. it's all i had. so he took me to dinner, he even paid. then we met some friends for happy hour. he wouldn't leave my side. anyway a friend of ours got sick. he metioned that she could stay with me so she wouldn't have to drive home. but my sister was going to take her. i told him that he was welcome to stay the night. but he didn't have any of his things, so he said no. but he said that he was coming back this weekend. he took me home and walked me to the door. he gave me a very sincere hug and kissed me like 4 times. i said i had a very nice night he aggreed and i told him that i loved him. and he said that loved me very much. he walked out and told me to lock up. so the first night in 3 weeks, i went to bed with a dry eye. and even slept. sorry i didn't mean to make this a play by play. and i am sure it is not far from over. but at that moment i felt like i was back in control, for the first time in a while. i felt like he was being a man. i haven't seen that in him since our honeymoon. it will be our 2 year aniversary nov 13th. it is funny how you surrender yourself at the mercy of your husband. my therapist asked me if i was scared to be divorced because i think i couldn't live without him, or if it was because i had no control. it made me think that it was a little of both. kicking him out was the hardest thing i ever did. but the best thing at the same time. i know it is hard, but sometimes drastic acts deserve drastic measures. i think when i did it, this whole affair wasn't as fun for him. i think half the fun was being sneaky. but of course it could all change in a heartbeat. keep your head up and take care of yourself. i really suggest you do what ever you can to see the therapist. even if he sees one by himself first. it is a safe haven. you can say whatever you want because no one is judging you. good luck!! i will check back later on you.

I was to the point of suicide. I had put so much effort into trying to continue the relationship, only to have him cheat again. The only suggestion I can make is the one that worked for me, though it may not work for everyone:<P>I said to hell with it. I am not trying anymore. If I have to spend one more day in this relationship, knowing the cheating won't stop, I'm going to kill myself. <P>I used to be strong and not take anything from anyone. "No second chances" I used to say. But I had given the person I loved a million chances and for what? To risk getting so upset that I wanted to kill myself?<P>The moment I said I quit, is when I started to feel independent and no longer a victim. <P>Who knows? He might see it as a wake up call and he might start to make an effort not to go online.

dear eryn,<P>why do we let ourselves feel this way? normally we are strong and people depend on us. but why can't we depend on ourselves when we go through these type of crisis in our lives? i have felt so helpless for a while, to the point that i can't even lift my head up or get out of bed. i am sorry that you have to go through this. it is not fair. i kicked my husband out last sunday. he is coming back today. but it was the hardest thing i have ever done in my life. it scared him. of course he didn't think it would really affect him that much, until he came home to visit and realized those things that he loves are now gone, because of some fantasy he took way too far. like you always hear," you don't know what you got till it's gone." i think it is very true. but some people are willing to give up everything no matter what the cost. it is hard for us to understand, because we give so much of ourselves to other people we couldn't even imagine hurting anyone. take care of yourself. i changed my hair color, i lost some weight(not intentionally, but i am using it to my advantage)i take long baths, i have been reading some pretty fufu books. bridget jones diary is good. watch sex and the city. i needed something very superficial and not so serious. i know it won't change anything but it might allow you to stop thinking about it for a little bit. time does heal. i hated it when people would tell me that, but from my own experiences i know it does. hopefully that helps just a little bit. good luck!

Jena:<P>I havent been on MB for a while but I look around sometimes. The nightmare you are living with right now I lived with for 7 years or however long the internet has been around. I have read all the replies here and I waited not wanting to believe my H would cross the line... but he did and I had proof and to tell ya the truth it probably had happened before I just had not wanted to see what I was seeing and he lied constantly.<P>The betrayal has crushed me and I did stupid things too thinking that with time this would all be a phase and we would get over it. I filed in February and then we reconciled then we went to the MB weekend and I even got on prozac... seems that the pain of it all has been too much for me and I am ready to bail out again.<P>I realized the other day that if I had gone into a plan B mode loooooooooonnnnngggg time ago when I used to beg him to stop and get off line and tell him that it hurt my feelings and he was adamant about having his privacy and doing what he wanted cause in his mind "his heart was still mine" ( of course his mind and his you know what was everywhere) <BR>so if I had gone into a Plan B after the first year or when I started to loose love and look elsewhere then maybe we would have made it... fact of the matter is ... I stayed in a semi plan A... ( I LB and did other dumb things) but no where near what he was doing daily.. but then again who is counting right???? so if I had plan B I would have "saved" the love I still felt for him and possibly put it back together... but after 7 years... while I love him... the pain outweighs the love and I no longer want to be with him..<P>be ware you are not a superwoman and year after year of this will wear your love out... even if you mate for life...your survival instincts will take over and you will need something for yourself... Go into a plan B and make him choose now...<BR>God bless<BR>

Jena,<P>The important point here is do YOU think trust will end it? Will you ever trust him again? What is he doing to build your trust in him again? Is he accountable to you for his time, who he is with, who he talks to? Do you have all of his passwords to his chat and e-mail accounts? Has he cut off all ties to OW and sent them a farewell letter that you have read and watched him send? <P>These are just baby steps to rebuilding trust. What trust is rebuilt though will never be the same as the blind trust you once had. <P>Bluebird

Hi Jenna,<BR> It doesn't matter what you look like. They are living in a dream world. Only problem with mine, is he met her and after the fallout, said she was "deeply in love" with him. I like you, wanted to die. And, like yoda also felt like committing suicide. I told the counselor last week that if the marriage didn't work out, there was nothing for me to live for, except to get my kids through high school. Didn't know if I could do that. I was totally feeling hopeless. I am on an antidepressant, but its not working too much. Still, I have good days. I mostly feel empty and void inside, desperately wanting to believe him, but when I find the truth, just freeze and want to die. Although I have also asked forgiveness to what I may have done to turn him to someone else, I just can't comprehend it on some level. It just makes me feel numb. I'm happy he is going to counselling with me. I told him I was going to do it even if he didn't. I also told him on the phone when he was in Virginia, that I went to see the Dr. and got tested for all the STDs. I was a nervous wreck until they came back. My kids thought I had flipped, and they were partially right although I couldn't tell them what was going on. I love this site because it lets you ventilate. I have only one friend, 300 miles from here to whom I can talk to about this. Otherwise, the isolation is unbearable. So, keep posting and telling us your progress. Thank God for the good days, and pray on the bad days. My prayer life has improved vastly. I regret that I had to come to this situation for God to get my attention and bring me back to Him in a way that should have been all along.<BR> The continued lying is what is so devastating. He may be living in a fantasy world but you aren't and it hurts. I feel your pain.<BR>Mikkey

"i believe you need to express your forgiveness to him. Tell him how committed you are in saving your marriage, but in order to do this you both need to get C together."<P>I've expressed these very words. It's why he called the counselor... although he may have called also because he knew I was moving out... I agree wholeheartedly that we need a third professional party to get us out of this downward spiral.<BR>You also said "Would i be correct in saying that he does phone sex instead when the computer is off. Is this what you mean?" To be honest I don't know. He says he never has, but I do know he called one woman almost every day for two months (phone bill evidence), and several others here and there... Who knows? He has lied so much ~ maybe he's lying about that too....<P>Jena

Yoda- you said:<BR>"I know what you mean by using the phone, my husband has spent over $150.00 in phone cards. and he is the cheapest person i know. so it really hurts extra. i guess in my fantasy mind, i wish he would spend that money on me." <P>Oh boy- don't remind me! We were having money problems during his longest phone affair, and he was spending 20.00 on some of those phone calls!!<P>I'm so glad you sound so much better! I hope he realizes your true importance to him...<P>"kicking him out was the hardest thing i ever did. but the best thing at the same time. i know it is hard, but sometimes drastic acts deserve drastic measures. i think when i did it, this whole affair wasn't as fun for him. i think half the fun was being sneaky."<P>I think the sneakiness is at least half of the whole allure also! The intrigue ~ like spying and espionage all wrapped up into sexual titillation for them... but how immature is that? <P>Even he wonders why he does it. I feel that's his mature side talking and hang on to that side of him's every word.<P>Jena

Dear erin:<BR>You said: <B>"The moment I said I quit, is when I started to feel independent and no longer a victim. <BR>Who knows? He might see it as a wake up call and he might start to make an effort not to go online."</B><P>I'm glad you got here instead of killing yourself. I know what both feelings are. I'm feeling strong at this point also, because I made the moves to leave and he stopped me. I'm not kicking him out... maybe I would if he'd been physical... I'm not sure.<P>I do know I feel better since I've reached this plateau... I simply won't tolerate it again. He seems to know that so far...<P><B>Concerned said "I realized the other day that if I had gone into a plan B mode loooooooooonnnnngggg time ago when I used to beg him to stop and get off line and tell him that it hurt my feelings and he was adamant about having his privacy and doing what he wanted cause in his mind "his heart was still mine" ( of course his mind and his you know what was everywhere) "</B><BR>This is what I am living to a tee... Plan B. Plan B. I have to go read that again. Does it entail kicking him out? Do I cut myself off from him totally? I'll go read, because I believe you.<P>Bluebird, you asked: <B>"What is he doing to build your trust in him again? Is he accountable to you for his time, who he is with, who he talks to? Do you have all of his passwords to his chat and e-mail accounts? Has he cut off all ties to OW and sent them a farewell letter that you have read and watched him send? "</B><P>He spoke in an IM to the last fling and told her he'd done complete wrong, and needed to stop what he was doing. It's been almost two weeks now since that? He copied and pasted the whole thing to me in an email... So far he hasn't done anything... I know of. I also have his password to his email acct. But I almost always have. He alsways just deleted everything he didn't want me to see and warned people of when I'd be home, and never to send him mail... <P>Mikkey; You sound like you've been there and back again. You knew exactly what has devasted me so much. The lies have been worse to bear than any of his other transgressions that went along with it... I know I wouldn't have liked anything he did, but if I'd been in on it instead of lied to- I wonder if I would have reacted differently? I might believe it was "a game" as he's called it. I might believe it was more of the "nothing" he claimed that shouldn't hurt me...<BR>Jena

dear jena,<P>so he moved back in this weekend. friday was a little awkward. he went to bed at 9:30. i guess i figured he would be a little more affectionate. anyway i went to bed because i was a little tired too. but of course i couldn't fall asleep. i started to panick again. so i started snooping through his stuff. i found the phone cards, this time there was a 500 minute and a 1000 minute. i wish i had that kind of money to throw around. oh, wait i do, because some of that is mine. anyway i found the girls phone number. i called her. it was 1:00 am my time, so i am not sure what it was her time in the netherlands. i started talking to her and at first she was saying that i wasn't his wife, that we were divorced and that he was living elsewhere. i said that was a total lie. i said we are not getting a divorce in fact he moved back in. she kept arguing with me. i said well, how do you think i got your phone number? anyway we both calmed down. i said that eli has been liying to you and me. i asked her what she thought she was going to get out of it. marriage? not even. anyway she told me she was thinkging about flying to the states to meet him on his drive to pensacola. i was furrious. how dare he. i am not sure how long ago that was. she told me that this was all a game to her and that it was nothing serious. that eli talks to her about me, and has only said good things, and she told him that he needed to work this out like a million times. he talks to her about our cousiling sessions. that's so frustrating. she even told me that she was a virgin. weird, huh? i guess she wanted me to know that she wasn't a slut. which makes me think she is pretty young. i should have asked. so i told her that i am trying to save my marriage. she told me that she thought i was nice, and can see why eli loves me so much. still doesn't make it any better. she told me that she hung up on him friday when he called her. she said that he has been calling too much and that she has other stresses in her life, and didn't have time for him to keep calling. by the end of the conversation she told me that the next time he calls if he does, that she would tell him to get lost, and that she has a boyfriend. and that neither one of us will tell him that we talked to eachother.i think she didn't want to get so envolved, it is way too real now for her. so i have been holding it in all weekend. i cut up the cards and burned the number. i am sure he still has the means to call her. he knows that the cards are missing so i think he was little mad at me saturday. but too bad. saturday night, i told him he was being cold. he said, you are acting like everything is ok and it isn't. then of course i started crying. i said, ok now you are going to hear it. it is time for tough love. i went into a long speal about how he thinks he going to be a navy officer, with this kind of attitude. i said you are already starting out as a quitter, cheater and a lier. and instead of thinking of me as your wife, think of me as a sister for five minutes. would you do something like this to your sisters, or want anyone to do this to them? he adores his sisters. i told him that i am sick of analyizing him. you need to suck it up, own up to it, fix it and move on. he grabbed me and layed my head to his chest and wouldn't let go. i said why don't you just cry. it's okay, if you are scared. i am the one you can do that with. i told him that i was going to fight for him. so anyway, i let it all out. it felt really good. of course there is a lot more to this story. but i have made it way tooo long as it is. i needed to get it out. i am glad i am at work right now. it helps to have a distraction. how was your weekend?

Wow yoda. It sounds like maybe you made some head way with him. As far as being an officer, this is not the way an officer conducts himself. I was an Army officer, married to an officer and it's dumb judgements like this that caused problems in my husband's career.<P>So what does he do? He was calling OW from work and chatting online with her. So I had to confront him on that one to and he actually fessed up. <P>Hang in there,<P>Bluebird

Yoda you said:<BR><<you are already starting out as a quitter, cheater and a lier. and instead of thinking of me as your wife, think of me as a sister for five minutes. would you do something like this to your sisters, or want anyone to do this to them?>><P>This is such a good analogy. I hope it hit home with your H. I wish my H had a sister so I could hope he'd understand this.<P>I started to write you back about this last week, but there was a thunderstorm which cut my power, and when I lost the long reply I was typing I gave up and was never able to get online again until now. Hope you see this and haven't given up on me. Maybe you are doing great now? I hope so.<P>My H has been "clean" all week. Or at least I think so. Unless he's discovered how I see what I see, or uses a computer he doesn't normally use, everything has been fine. I can't monitor him much longer...<P>I still have an emotional need to go to counseling with him. I still need to talk things out with a third professional person present. He keeps saying he will. But I'm realizing it's probably going to have to me who sets up the appt. He keeps saying he will and simply forgets about it. <P>I also wanted to tell you that I spoke with his phone girlfriend last spring. Be careful. She pretended to be my friend, promised things and said things that turned out to be false. I was completely trusting because I couldn't conceive a reason anyone would lie about such things. <P>When I caught her in the lie, she pretended to cry and know not why she did what she did. She "needed" my husband. He was so understanding and listened so well- blah blah blah. Then she turned mean and ugly about the whole thing and attacked me through e-mail. I was already hurt, but she hurt me even more telling me I MUST be a bad wife if my husband did these things!<P>She has since dissappeared. Changed her name. I always fear my H knows who she is now and where she is. She's the one he may have met. I want to believe he didn't...<P>Now the only thing he did this week was send an e-mail to a few "old chat friends;" women of course. The e-mail was some thoughts on the American crisis we're all facing, and he didn't try to hide that he sent it- but he didn't tell me about it either. I had to see it myself. Part of me wonders if it was a test to see if I was still looking. <P>I don't know. This all gets to feeling so crazy. I find myself simply wanting to forget about it.<P>But I've done that before, and then he does it again. <P>Is it an attention getter? I sometimes wonder if it is, so I'm trying to give very <I>positive</I> attention.<P>Jena<p>[This message has been edited by Jena (edited September 29, 2001).]