I've tried to Plan A for the last month, and as many of you know, I've slipped up a few times here and there.<P>She is going to meet another "friend" this week. When I found out (through snooping), I reminded her of her vows. I also reminded her that I told her once before that if she continues to meet other men, she should find some place else to live. I don't think that it was demanding too much from her, but she tells me that I'm being too controlling.<P>She says that she is meeting a woman friend she met online, and they are going to have lunch with a mutual, online friend just down the road. She says that he's just a friend. She was extremely upset when I told her, but I think it's because her secret date was discovered.<P>Someone help me with this. I just need to know if I am being too controlling or demanding about this. Am I over-reacting like she tells me? Could it be that I am just a control freak and won't allow her to have any friends?<P>Pops

Hey pops,<P>I was pretty confused about this my self. We had a discussion on another board. This was the best advice I saw in that thread.<P><BR><I>I wanted to expand on what Marissa said a bit.<BR>Control is when the OP FEELS you are manipulating / controlling their lives and the choices they make. You can be controlling w/o realizing it. The best way to avoid this is with "I" statements.<P>Ex of control: "W, we need to resolve this by the end of December or else we're getting a divorce."<P>Better way to say it: "W, I don't think I can take living this type of life much longer. I feel as though I will reach my limit by December."<P>Boundaries are what you set for YOURSELF, so that you take control of YOUR life (not your M or OP's life), and work on the things YOU want. The second statement above is setting a boundary. It lets your W know that you will not put up with this for longer than a few months. The first statement was about control, and trying to force your W to make a decision within a few months or ELSE.<P>control/boundaries are all in your head and in the way you relay your feelings to others. If you are having trouble deciding if a decision is about control or boundaries, ask yourself this:<P><B>1. Am I willing to go through with this, regardlesss of the actions my S may take? (yes=boundary, no=control)<BR>2. Why do I want this? What motivates me? (for myself to heal = boundary, to try and change things / to make S realize something / to try and change the way S feels = control).</B><P>get it?<BR>HbH </I><P>who

I think I get it. Only one thing though. Even if your motivation was to heal yourself, you may not begin healing until something in the OP has changed. For example, if someone were actively involved with an A, and their BS wanted to heal from that - the BS might not be able to begin the healing process until the A was over.<P>I guess it sounds like I might have controlling tendancies in this situation, but if she continues to do things that cause me pain, the wounds only get deeper and will take more time to heal.<P>It's almost as if she causes pain for me on purpose - maybe she is intentionally hurting me so that I will end the marriage?<P>It could be that my impatience is controlling me into being a control freak?<P>Pops

Don't take it too bad. While in this state WS tend to blame BS for everything, and say it is control.<P>My W even blamed me for stopping her smoking 28 years ago! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] An she dredged lots of other things up from our history too that suddenly were my fault.<P>However 'who' has some good advice that can help under these circumstances.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p0peye_34:<BR><STRONG>I think I get it. Only one thing though. Even if your motivation was to heal yourself, you may not begin healing until something in the OP has changed. For example, if someone were actively involved with an A, and their BS wanted to heal from that - the BS might not be able to begin the healing process until the A was over.<P>I guess it sounds like I might have controlling tendancies in this situation, but if she continues to do things that cause me pain, the wounds only get deeper and will take more time to heal.<P>It's almost as if she causes pain for me on purpose - maybe she is intentionally hurting me so that I will end the marriage?<P>It could be that my impatience is controlling me into being a control freak?<P>Pops</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Pops,<P>Hey guy, I've been down this road. The longer you blame your pain on your W the longer you're going to hurt and the deeper it will be. You wouldn't act like your W is would you? You're doing the same thing many WS's do by blaming your unhappiness on you W. You can't control a thing she does. Set your boundry. Do some soul searching an find that boundry. If she crosses over then stick to your plan. <P>I know it's hard but your W may never come around. You can heal even if your W isn't co-operating. That may seem impossible right now and with time you will see that you need to start to look within to heal and be happy. People used to say crap like this to me when I started 10 months ago and I thought they were crazy. Now I know they're right. It does take time to see these things but if you keep your head up and keep working on you, you will end up stronger in the end. <P>The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.<P><BR>Good luck,<P><BR>who

I've often said to people who continue to make the same mistake over and over again "Well duh, why do you keep hitting yourself in the head with that hammer?". One day, after saying that to a person who worked for me, he immediately snapped back "Because it feels good when I stop!"<P>It freaked me out when he said that, but then he told me that he had been married for 12 years and that I should understand. I thought I did at the time, but I don't think I really did until now.<P>Anyway, control=DEMANDING while boundry=LIMITING. Can one limit things without control? I strongly believe that the answer to this is "NO". Perhaps my background in the military compels me to think this way, but if you don't have or assume control over any situation, it will be difficult, at least, to be able to set limits or boundries for it.<P>You should be an matter expert and understand the situation before you <B>can</B> take control. Without the knowledge to <B>be able</B> to take control of any situation, you cannot possibly set boundries.<P>Just a thought here, sorry to get all technical here, but I honestly believe it.<P>Either way, I've set the boundry for her and I think it is a way of controlling her. But I think I should follow through with it.<P>She's still planning on her date tomorrow, and I just want to be sure that I am making the right decision before she goes.<P>Pops

Control, I guess is in the eyes of the beholder. My H used to claim I was controlling him if I asked him where he was going and when he was coming home. If your S is not being honest with you about her activities....trust will go out the door mighty fast. It might be that she wants to use your boundaries you have set for her excuse to leave.<BR>Lght

Pops,<BR>For what its worth, here is what I think. I don't know if this is right or not so please don't be offended if I say anything that you think is out of line. I'll tell you what I have realized in my situation and maybe it will help in yours.<P>First, I can't give W any of the EN's (Plan A) that she needs right now, and I think that she feels like she doesn't deserve them from me either. I'm trying my hardest to be her friend but my husband instincts get the better of me all the time. Every time I try and tell her that I love her, miss her, want to be with her, how special she is, want the M to work out, I can tell that I am pushing her away. I have to be real careful even with talking on the phone to her that I don't say anything like this, I can hear it in her voice. I also only call if there is something important or to tell the kids good-night, much as I would like to call just to hear her sweet voice again. <P>W is on a personal and spiritual journey right now, it is between her and God to figure this out for herself, just like I am on the same journey. The best I can do is sit by, take care of myself and pray for her. Once she has figured it out for herself, and me, then we can work on us, wherever that takes us. I get the feeling that your W hasn't got to that point yet, but I do feel that her constant 'going out with friends' is a way to try and find the EN's that she can't get from you (either she doesn't feel like she deserves the EN's, or feels like maybe you are smothering her with them). She's trying different things now, I think that is a good sign because she will eventually figure out that it is you who has been there all along and not these other so called friends.<P>Second, Who is right about the separation thing (from the control/boundary thread), it can be real tricky. W and I mutually agreed to it. W will even stay in the same place that I am in on the weekends so that I can have more time with the kids. I don't think the ultimatium was the right thing to do, but then again I can see your frustration. Have you considered just telling her that right now being together is destroying any chance of things working out, that you both need time apart to work on yourselves with the other not being constantly in the way? But it has to be done in a loving way, not in anger with a slamming door on your way out. I don't know, she may appreciate you giving her that much space, I know that W does, and so do I. I know that us being apart has removed almost all of the boundaries we had put between each other.<P>Last, what are you doing to take care of yourself? Remember the triangle. Right now I am getting into some church ministry groups that deal with these kinds of things. I'm fortunate enough to have a very strong Christian church nearby that offers these things. I don't know if you are a religious person, even if you are not, getting into some groups like this can't hurt. Just talking to the pastor yesterday for a little bit really helped me get some things out that I had been holding in. I'm going to take advantage of this time apart to concentrate on me, something I don't think I have ever really done. I know there are plenty of things I can do to distract myself but that is all they really are. I need to talk to people who have been there, much like these forums, but in person. I need to figure out who I am again and how I really feel about everything and how I can make myself a better person.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p0peye_34:<BR><STRONG><P>Anyway, control=DEMANDING while boundry=LIMITING. <P>Pops</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Pops and lhs,<P>I think you guys are thinking about boundries wrong.<P>Look again:<P>Boundaries are what you set for YOURSELF, so that you take control of YOUR life (not your M or OP's life), and work on the things YOU want. <P><BR><B>1. Am I willing to go through with this, regardlesss of the actions my S may take? (yes=boundary, no=control)<BR>2. Why do I want this? What motivates me? (for myself to heal = boundary, to try and change things / to make S realize something / to try and change the way S feels = control).</B><P><BR>Thinking about it in football terms.<BR>1. The sideline is out of bounds. You set the sideline. If W steps out of bounds then you act. You have to decide what YOU are going to do if that happens and what you do should not be punishment for her. This is the fine line. You have to decide what you can and can't do before you set your boundry. If you tell W that she can't see person X then she will take it as controlling and it is. But if you tell her that it hurts you to much when she see's X and if she chooses to do that then you will leave, separate, file for divorce, etc. You decide what you can and can't do then let her decide what she wants to do. If you don't follow through when she steps out of bounds then you have just become an enabler and she knows that a new boundry has been set. BE VERY CAREFUL setting your boundries. You should do this when you're calm and rational (I know, doesn't seem like that will ever happen again right?) and after you've given it a lot of thought. Once you become an enabler then you can't just all the sudden cry foul when she does it the next time. She'll think you are inconsistant and unfair (LOL).<P><BR>good luck,<P><BR>who<p>[ October 18, 2001: Message edited by: whothehellisshe ]

I guess this whole boundary thing is a lot more complicated than I thought. I still believe that us being apart allows me to establish some boundaries for myself. Us being together was just a big control thing, me using guilt to control her and W using my treating her so bad all these years to control me. <P>If W was still in contact with OM then I would have been hesitant to leave, but since I know she is done with him, I am allowing her, and me time to work on us individually. Maybe that is the boundary I have established, allowing me to work on myself without her being there to indirectly remind me of what happened (control?). <P>Maybe this time is meant for me to re-establish my own personal boundaries. I have already seen how I never set any firm boundaries on how the kids treated me and the consequences it has. I have also become aware of how I never established any boundaries for me to take care of myself, how I never really made any friends or had a life outside of work, marriage and family. I'm thinking that how I mistreated W was mainly due to me not having established some firm boundaries of how I should love W. So now it is time to establish these boundaries and determine what I will do if someone crosses them, or if I allow myself to cross them.<P>I can see now that I can't set her boundaries, that would be controlling. I think that is why she gets upset when I talk about us, she has set a boundary like I have, that right now it is about us individually, and everytime I mention us together, I have crossed that boundary.<P>Who, you seem to have some good advice on this subject, am I beginning to see it the right way, or am I still way off base. And here I thought I was making some great strides (lol).

Who, I agree that everyone must be in control of their life, but up until now, my life has consisted of my family. I can't say I have control of my life until I can say that I have control of my family, including my W.<P>Soooooo, to make a long story short, I have not crossed that line that you have just yet. I can't say that she has her own life, because my life consists of her in it. To control my life right now, I would have to have some sort of control over her life, at least until I don't automatically consider her a part of my life.<P>Pops

lhs,<P>Read your post again. You're looking up your triangle and not over at W. A lot more peaceful isn't it?<P><BR>Pops,<P>I loved this:<P>"I've often said to people who continue to make the same mistake over and over again "Well duh, why do you keep hitting yourself in the head with that hammer?". One day, after saying that to a person who worked for me, he immediately snapped back "Because it feels good when I stop!"<P>I know it's hard. You guys probably think that it's easy for me to think like this. When I started this journey back in December (seems like years ago) I can remember my life completely out of control. W wasn't cooperating so I went to counseling by myself. I can still remember my first words "My W cheated on me, I'm a type A and nobody is going to change me, I want to know how to get past this". C sat and listened to me for 2 or 3 sessions without hardly saying a word. Finally he told me that before the next session he wanted me to go home and think about everything I could control - really control. When I returned the next time he asked me for my list. I didn't have one thing on it. I run my own business and have around 40 employees. I've always been in charge even when I had to answer to somebody else. C told me that's because I was looking for control in the wrong places. The only thing I have control over is my words and my actions. So when everything is going to hell the only thing I can control is me. Sure, I can alter events and push things down a different path if I try hard enough but wouldn't that energy be better spent improving myself? Being the stubborn person I am and how hurt I was I listened and tried but it took a long time for me to start living that lesson. I'm still not all the way there but I'm close. It is a lot easier now that I've chosen not to be my W's rescuer and to "MAKE" my marriage work. <P>pops, I do understand what it feels like when you have so much of yourself invested in your marriage. Letting go is like loosing a piece of yourself. It literally feels like you are dying. It's hard and it does take time but if it's not meant to be it just hurts worse when it's ripped from you instead of you just letting go. Hope that made some sense. One day you will quit hitting yourself in the head with the hammer and it will feel good.<P>who

Yes, I am starting to look up the triangle, but it is so hard to not look over at W to see where she is and also to worry that we both don't make it to the top together. I've been doing a lot of thinking about who I am and what makes me tick. Its been only three weeks since D-Day but I feel like I have taken some big steps towards recovery on my part. I have been gnawing on this whole boundary/control thing a lot and am starting to see what they really mean.<P>Your comment on the control thing makes sense. I realize now that I can not control what W does or how she will work on trying to save/not save the M. I think that is what is so hard right now, I so desperately want the M to work and she keeps saying "I can't make any promises right now". But, since I have stopped trying to push the issue (look up the triangle?) I have listened to some things she has said that have given me hope. Like you said, all I can control is how I act and react, be supportive, understanding and be there whenever she needs me right now. (funny thing is she is still relying on me for a lot of the little things that I did for her even though I only am coming home every other day for a while)<P>Pops is right about the investment part of the M too. I have poured everything I have (misdirected as some of it was) into W and the family. We have accomplished things that people said couldn't be done. I don't want to lose any of this and right now I am not ready to accept the fact that it might happen. Its too soon and neither one of us has really tried to work on the M yet, we are just trying to work on ourselves right now. W, the kids and the marriage has been my identity for all these years, I'm not going to lose that without a fight, but I can't fight alone. Leaving all of that right now hurts more than anything but it has allowed me to focus on myself and W to focus on herself. I think we both lost our identities the last couple of years. It does feel like a death, but I'm trying to look at it as a death of the old, destructive way and the birth of a new, better way.<P>W has broken off all contact with OM now and I think that gives me hope, at least it gives me peace of mind. I don't know if I could handle the situation that Pops is in right now. Knowing that W is still active in some kind of A would drive me over the edge for sure.<P>Pops and Who, thanks for the insight, it has really helped me understand a lot of things about myself, W, the kids and the M. Its only been 3 weeks (seems like 3 years, probably have a lot more gray hairs from this) and a lot has happened, both good and bad. My whole life I have been under the impression (comes from my Dad) that men who show any kind of deep, personal emotions are weak. Since, and even right before D-Day, I have run the whole range of emotions, sometimes all within a couple of hours. W has even joked that now I know what it is like to be a woman.<P><I>null</I>"You can be powerful or you can be pitiful, but you can't be both."- Joyce Meyers

Well, she came back and was silent about her little meeting yesterday. I spent the day crying like a baby in front of the stereo, listening to old songs.<P>I didn't ask her what she did, even though I was dying to find out. Even if she did tell me, I would dismiss it as lies anyway, so what's the point?<P>I did send her an email this morning telling her that she has my friends at MB to thank for her still living here, and that we should both work on ourselves before we work on the M.<P>She read all of my posts and she's pissed. She's at work now, but replied to my e-mail and is upset that I am thinking about seeking legal counsel before I go on deployment. She's mad that I snoop, and that I don't automatically trust her. She's angry about a letter I sent to one of her OM she has on the hook (the one she wants to meet when I leave). I'm happy that she's mad, but there's something about all this that makes perfect sense. Its everything that I've read and heard on this site. She is so typical that a big light has gone off in my head.<P>20 years is a long time to forget. I will never forget all of it, because it's more than half my life. It's been the good times as well as the bad times that are with me, but most of all, she is a part of me. Like LHS says, I won't let that go without a fight!<P>As a military member, I'm embarrassed to ask the question, but I have to. How do I fight this battle? I read all the information, and have a greater understanding of it all now, but I don't know where to place the pawns and what my next knight move should be. Heck, I don't even know which emotions I should consider pawns in this game!<P>I can only give up the things are not a part of me now, and my M is not one of them right now. Can I separate my W from my M?<P>Pops

Pops,<P>I know exactly how you are feeling. Especially what you said about “Even if she did tell me, I would dismiss it as lies anyway, so what's the point?” and “How do I fight this battle?”. I wish I had something positive and uplifting to say but it seems like we are in very similar boats right now.<P>Wishing you the best!<P>HeartBrokenHusband

Pops,<P>I have been following your posts since the begining, I haven't posted much because I have been at a loss for words to give you for help in your situation. Now that your wife is reading your posts, there is something I would like to say to her if you please Sir.<P>To Pops wife,<P>I would like to say a few things from another mans point of view, a man who is also trying to save his marraige after my wife of 16 years found herself in the middle of a full blown affair.<P>The pain is unbearable, I never thought in a million years that there was pain like this. Please understand that we as betrayed spouses have been blindsided so hard that it is nearly impossable to think straight let alone say the right things now that truth is out. It will now take time to recover from this. <P>The main point that I want you to know is that as we are going through this nightmare, we become more and more aware that we have played a major roll in all this and have many regrets. If only we would have done things different over the years. If only we would have payed more attention to you and made you feel more equal, not less than equal. If only we would have known how important it was to validate your feelings instead of trying to convince you that everything was "fine" and that it was all your imagination.<P>There aren't enough words to express the true meaning of "I'm sorry".<P>I have been in recovery now for 14 months and it has been the hardest time of my entire life but I must say now, it has been worth it because it has made a new man out of me. My family is still together and my marraige is far better than ever before. I am truly committed to my wife and you too can have what we are experiencing now.<P>There was a reason you married in the first place, I assume you were in love with the man of your dreams. Just because it feels so hopless now does not mean that there is no hope. I am here to tell you that there is most deffinatly hope and your marraige can be way better than you ever imagined!<P>Please look through this web site and you will see many many people in the same boat as you two are, you are not alone. I encourage you to create a screen name and talk to others here so that you can better understand what you are feeling and what to expect. My wifes screen name is "pretty", she knows exactly how you feel and would gladly share her thoughts with you, shes been there too.<P>Please don't give up. Our prayers are with you. <P>God bless,<P>stillhurts

Once again, I have to thank you all for your words posted here. SH, I appreciate the post, but I don't think that she will ever read it. She's so deep in the fog right now, and after I attempted to explain to her how I cannot possibly trust her if she keeps doing things to hurt me, her temper went down some.<P>Now, she knows that I know that she feels guilty. But she also knows that I won't allow myself to be hurt anymore. So that leaves us back at square one in my eyes. But at least if I really wanted to get her to talk to me, I know how now - all I have to do is make her angry with me! That was supposed to be funny BTW.<P>All I can do is keep trying, but MAN, sometimes it feels like I'm fighting a losing battle! Every small victory yields three or four large defeats.<P>Pops

Pops,<P><BR>She's not the enemy. As long as you look at it as a battle that's what it's going to be.<P>who

Pops,<BR> <BR>I think that if I were in your situation, they would have to admit me into a mental hospital by now. Pat on the back to you for hanging in there like you are.<P>The military is a tough life, I did my time a while back and I know what goes on there. W told me that on one of my deployments, she felt herself drawn to a neighbor, but nothing happened. (I hadn't thought of that until just now). It's a lonely life for both sides. EN/PN's need to be met, how come they can't wait until we got back, guess that is what makes us so different.<P>I made a post to Betsy Meier about my take on the trust issue, don't know if it would help any. Remember to look up the triangle (good advice from someone who couldn't even see how hurt W was from me ignoring her all these years?). I don't even mention the A, the OM or anything related to it right now, I'm just busy trying to re-establish a 'normal' life. I think that helps for both of us. I'm not saying that I am forgetting what has happened, we will deal with that topic soon enough. But, I think I am allowing W the space she needs (not controlling) to figure out what she did and why on her own. Maybe we are dealing with completely different problems here, I don't know. I have a lot of issues, besides the A, I need to work out on my own now and so does W. Constantly hammering each other about the A isn't going to help either one, or the M.<P>It's a battle alright, but a battle within ourselves. W and M are not the enemies, they are our allies. Somewhere along the lines, things changed and we lost our focus on the objectives (both of us). We need to look in ourselves to find out what happened to cause that and what we can do to fix it. When I said I wasn't going to give up without a fight, I meant it. But I am not going to fight W, I'm going to fight the causes of our problems. Right now I don't even see the A as a problem, I see it as a wake-up call for me to change my ways and refocus on W and I think I am doing that. But until W and I have fought our own battles, we can't come back together and make the M work.

Pops,<BR>Did you get the part about boundaries being for you and not her???<BR>You dont tell her what you will not allow her to do, you tell yourself what you will not allow yourself to do- or be done to you.<P>Plan A so that when your gone or she is gone she can truely compare you to "others"<P>Ask her why she is staying.<P>Why was she angry you would seek legal counsil?<P>Im sad for you that she could not see through your posts and tell that you love her and want to fix things.<BR> She is welcome to come here and post also.<BR>Good Luck Pops