I posted a question on GQ II and thought I would ask my friends here for some advice also. Basically, I moved back home (sleeping on the couch) about 1-1/2 weeks ago. During the last week, we had to deal with a close friend dying of cancer. W and I have spent a lot of time talking about almost everything and I felt like we were making some progress towards re-connecting. It even got to the point on several occasions where W wanted to get intimate again, but as things began to &#8216;heat-up&#8217;, she pushed me back and said it wasn&#8217;t a good idea to be like this.<p>W finally told me that she didn&#8217;t want to commit to the M because she wanted to see if she could become independent, basically be able to raise the kids by herself and make it on her own. W said this would be the only way that she would be able to choose me as a husband again. W also told me that she felt like she got married to young, wasn&#8217;t given a chance to prove herself to the world and also felt pressured by her family to get married and stay married all these years.<p>Any thoughts on this? I told W I would move out as soon as financially possible if that is what she really wants. How can I commit myself to someone who feels this way? Should I wait around for how long? I mean, becoming independent like that could take a very long time. I really don&#8217;t feel like putting my life on hold. I am not going to make any drastic decisions until I have had a chance to let this sink in. Its becoming harder and harder to even feel anything for her when she says things like that.

LHS<p>Is the A over? <p>Sounds to me she has had contact with OM. I also was told got married too young (What has that got to do with apples) She is married to late now. I feel she is using that as an excuse to seperate and still have contact with OM. She can be independent and still be married.<p>If I were you, I would not go anywhere. If she wants to leave let her. Why should you move out. She can leave and you can take care of the kids. (she won't like that)<p>Tell her you have though about it and you will not be moving. If she so chooses she can move and you will take care of the children.<p>Stay in Plan A at least six months. If contact contines then think about going to Plan B<p>In my case Plan A worked for me in three months and my WH did not move out. The A is now over and no contact in over a month. The fog is lifting and he is comitting to the M<p>Stay strong and work on you.<p>
SLH

SLH,<p>I have thought about that (A not being over) and wonder myself. I know that last week I told W about the things that OM told his W about my W (OM's W told me these things during a phone convesation a while back). OM's comments made W look like the instigator of the A and almost like W was obsessed by OM. I think that W tried to call OM after I told her these things. Im not sure if any physical contact (apparently OM's W has hired an attorney to keep the heat on OM to avoid W) has been made, but I do think that W still has strong feelings towards him.<p>As far as W moving out, if it comes up again (me moving out) I will push that issue. That could turn into an ugly situation though, W does want her cake and eat it to. For now I am going to stay put and not say anything to W about this. It could have just been her trying to get me out of the way hoping that OM might come back like you said. I'll see what the next couple of days brings. Thanks for the reply.

lhs,<p>Long time no see! Well I can tell you that I'm in exactly the same spot. The big talk we had last weekend was just about the same as yours. W doesn't need a man and needs to beat this on her own. Ouch! That hurts the self esteem a little bit doesn't it? Keep your head up - that's all you can do. You'll know when it's time to quit. <p>
who

Who,
Yes, misery does love company! I am sorry to hear you had to go through the same thing I did. I hurt real bad hearing W tell me she didn&#8217;t need me anymore, like I was just some kind of service that she doesn&#8217;t need any more. I made the same post on GQ II and got some good replies if you want to check them out.<p>Some of the things W said to me almost made me give up. I did tell her that I wasn&#8217;t going to let her hurt me emotionally anymore and if she really felt that way that I am releasing her of any obligations she feels she has towards me.<p>Some of the things she said:
- I felt pressured by my family to get married and to stay married, I didn&#8217;t want to look like a failure in their eyes.
- I got married to young and never had a chance to prove myself in the real world.
- I need to become independent so I can decide if I want to choose you again
- I need to find me again
- You deserve a W who can forgive you for your past and who can love you unconditionally.<p>After thinking about it I get the feeling that she is just pushing me away as far as she can because we started to get close. I don&#8217;t think W is ready yet to deal with the A and all the pain it has caused everyone, including herself. I also feel like W would rather let the M fall completely apart than have to deal with the pain and hurt that the A caused. Right now isn&#8217;t the time to give up but I wonder how much more I can take of this?

YOU WROTE THAT WIFE SAID:
- I need to find me again
- You deserve a W who can forgive you for your past and who can love you unconditionally.<p>LHS,<p>I can tell you what she is thinking when she says these two particular statements... Unfortunately, when i was unfaithful in my marriage (now the tables are turned) but when i was the evil-doer, i told my h the SAME EXACT things... I really did feel that he deserved someone that would and could love him the way he deserved and someone who was MORE LIKE HIM. I was also on the "find myself" trip. I will also say that when i would tell my h this, it was because i desired somebody else in his place. I was so involved already with this other person that my feelings for h were totally gone, what i thought.<p>Your w will make a big mistake if she leaves you in search of herself. Luckily, for me, God helped me to see clearly what a fool i was, how i needed my h more than anything next to Him, and i just hated myself for doing what i was doing. Ya know, what killed me the most was just my H's love for me through it all. He always just trusted me and supported me, stood beside me. I couldn't help but feel sorry for him and give the marriage a chance, and it wasn't without pain and struggle. Your w has to come to that point and decide that, "yes, i will endure this battle of my own heart and feelings to love my h again". <p>For me, it started with just asking God to change me. I said, God, i hate living in my own skin and am uncomfortable, take away the feelings i have for other person and help me to love my h again. God didn't answer overnight and i didn't expect him to, but HE DID ANSWER AND PRAISE GOD FOR THAT. <p>I know that you know what happened later in my story, my h had affair and has now gotten ow pregnant (5 mo prg). Well, there are consequences for my sin and i would be a fool not to think that these are a taste of the consequences for what i did. <p>I know that it gets frustrating and you feel like throwing in the towel, i know, i feel it too. Only God knows the outcome in this, what is in store for you, your marriage, your family. All you can do is put your absolute trust/faith in Him. Let him work THROUGH you. <p>I pray for you and your wife, she really needs to wake up from this "sleep", she is only hurting herself and God grieves over this. Your w doesn't have to find herself or have a strong sense of independence to be successful or confident in who she is. God doesn't care about success monetarily or pride-fully. He loves us all, but he rejoices in the humble, the meek, the givers, those with hearts like children. Ask your wife about being humble and what that means to her. I really love that word and wish that God humbles me daily and strengthens and fortifies me in HIS Truth and not what the world would have me buy into...like finding myself.<p>Hang in There...Keep the faith.

Thanks Julia, I can always count on you to keep me focused on what is really important, keeping the faith in Gods plan and letting Him work things out. I kinda look at you as the 'just found out' forum minister. Its good to have you here giving me some good sound spiritual advice. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Its just so hard right now, I'm entering month 3 of the process and it seems to be getting worse. Case in point: W went to a hotel this weekend while I was at home. She hurt herself the next morning and had to go to the emergency room to get help. I didn't hear about it until it she came home later that day. No phone call by her, the emergency room people, nothing. I asked her why she didn't call and all I got were these very superficial excuses (I couldn't think straight, my cell phone didn't work, I was there for only 5 hours, didn't want to bother anyone with my problems, blah, blah). Made me feel like some kind of second-rate friend. I mean, isn't that what M is all about, taking care of each other during times of need.<p>The sad part of this is when W was blabbering her excuses, I could feel myself shutting down emotionally and feeling completely indifferent towards her. I have done this before, feels like some kind of survival mechanism, like I am trying to prevent W from hurting me any more than she already has. It bothers me that I do this too because I still have strong feelings towards her, maybe that's what I am trying to protect.<p>It seems that we are just co-existing now, being more like room-mates than anything else. I know that I need to give it more time and continue to Plan A, but how can I when W does these major LB's and be so uncommitted to me or the M? W has even told me that she wont go back to counseling because she disagrees with some of the things that the counselor has said.<p>I guess that was more of a vent than anything else, thanks for listening.

Julia,<p>Your post could have been directed at me. I see the same things in my W that you were feeling. I don't want her to feel sorry for me and I've tried hard not to show my pain but she can see it every once in awhile. I really, really don't want my W to give us a shot because she feels sorry for me. I know I am kinda keeping my distance right now because she feels this way. I know I could move on and it is important to me that if we make it, we make it because this is where we both want to be. More time? is that the answer?<p>
lhs,<p>I need to warn you. When I hit the 4 month mark my patience was pretty thin. The 4-6 months after Dday was very hard on me. I literally lost all hope, not only in my M but in myself. This was the most trying time of my life for me personally. I couldn't see any light and was pretty down. Looking back it was also the time when I grew the most. I hope you avoid this but if it happens keep it in the back of your mind that you will get through this. Don't be afraid to face your feelings. <p>
who

I know how you feel. DDay was August 15th. My W still has feelings for the OM and I found out through internet checking about the A, unfortunately I lost my connection with the OM to check up on the A.<p>As I moved on i have become a better person and do feel M takes 3 steps fprward and 2 back. Keep trying. It was not your fault so don't move out.<p>TM2

LHS,<p>What sorts of things does the counselor say that your w disagrees with? Usually, they disagree with the things that do not fit the lifestyle she is living. That is the same with the Bible, people pick and choose parts of the the Bible that fit their lifestyle and ignore the parts that don't agree with them. I know that in this world it is much easier to do what feels good, feels right rather than do what is right. <p>I am sorry that your w is excluding you from certain things like her little visit to the er. That must really be tough to deal with, but she isn't seeing straight right now and only God's working and time will snap her out of it. Yea, ideally that is something that would involve you, her h. I can tell that she is trying to distance herself from you and exclude you from her daily doings. But she is so wrong in her thinking, don't worry though, LHS, there is still hope. God turns the hardest of hearts around. My h is a changed man, not perfect (nobody is) but my h (the cop, hard-nosed tough guy, no time for anyone-but himself) is shedding those awful layers daily and he has turned to the Lord and asked for forgiveness and i am totally SHOCKED, blown away at what God can actually do in hearts. GOD CAN AND IS ABLE TO CHANGE HER HEART, He just needs time, patience and obedience from you. And no matter what the outcome of your marriage, God still loves you and he rejoices in your love for him, obedience and the time you surrendered for him to work in your marriage.
Keep pressing on, there will be good and bad days to come, but remember that God wants to save your marriage, he is FOR it. He blessed it, has already established the covenant and he doesn't break his promises...ever! And he asks the same of us. So like the apostle Paul says..."Keep the faith".<p>
Who,<p>Absolutely, time is the answer. And unfortunately, here's the part i didn't like that much... The amount of time is not yours to decide, but God's. I had honestly come to a point in my marriage where if my h decided to go through with the divorce that at least i never gave up and prayed til the day the divorce would have been final. Now the struggle is much harder cuz h no longer wants divorce, but now there is an illegitimate fetus on the way and i cry to God daily about keeping the faith and remaining obedient to God. I wish that i could just say, "ok i quit, i've had enough", but once i decide that, God says, "here... have my strength to get through today and then i will see you tomorrow for replenishing". And man, that part is tough. I could walk away from God, but then i would really be lost. I choose to trust him because I know that he will take good care of me and victory is already guaranteed with him. <p>And like you said, it was during the most trying, difficult days that you grew the most. Same for me, without the trial, there may have not been ANY spiritual growth. And i just thank God for loving me enough to teach me, pay attention to me, and choose me for one of his own. I am so excited to meet God someday. He is so great.<p>So keep trusting in his ways, we are not supposed to completely understand them, but trusting him is key, no matter what. I struggle with it daily, but I am glad that there is at least one part of each day now that God is the highlight and nobody or nothing thing could ever match it!<p>God Bless,
Julia

Julia,
One of W's biggest complaints about the C is that C told both of us during our second (and last so far) couples session that there really wasn't any reason to continue couples counselling until W decided if she really wanted to work on the M and improving our relationship together. All we could hope to achieve right now was to set boundaries for each other so that we didn't hurt each other anymore. The funny thing about that was we were supposed to write down our own boundaries and then discuss them (W disagreed with 11 of my 16). I did my half, but W just came to the session and said that she only needed to have a verbal set of boundaries and that writing them down didn't mean anything to her. Almost like W wanted to be able to change the rules and use the 'that's not what I meant' excuse to do it.<p>W's other complaint is that I went to see the same C by myself and now W feels like me and the C are going to gang up on her. Before I made the appt, I asked W if she would have a problem with me going to see the same C alone, I didn't want her to be uncomfortabe with it. W said it was fine, but now it isn't.
I get the feeling that C told W some things during their IC that really opened her eyes and she doesn't want to admit to what she has done. So now it appears that W is done with counselling, she 'just needs to take a break' from all of this right now.<p>As a follow-up. Last night I came home late from school and I could tell right away that something was going on with W. Her whole demeanor was different, had a different tone in her voice, made some very odd conversation topics and stayed in the same room as me, but at the opposite side. I knew something was up so I went upstairs, found her cell phone and guess whose number was the last one dialed? She had called him this weekend also, not sure if they actually talked or if she just left a message. So now I am wondering what really happened this weekend. Her avoiding me about the ER visit almost fits in with how she was acting last night. Not sure what to do with this information right now, just sit on it or confront W knowing that she will deny it or make it out to be less than what it really is.<p>Am I back to square one?<p> [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Just a follow up. W has called me a couple of times already today to discuss usual 'married but seperated couple' things (stuff like when we were still just 'married'). She was back to normal, not like the last few days. Something that MIL told me about W is that you can always tell when she is up to something because she will avoid direct contact with you, much like the last few days, or even the months when the A was in full swing if I remember correctly.<p>Anyway, while we were talking W asked me if I had finished reading 'that book'. Turns out 'that book' is HN/HN that I had gotten from the library a while back. Apparently W has read quite a bit of it, says it is a good book and it makes a lot of sense to her. She even mentioned that we need to communicate more about things that are going on in our lives. WOW! Maybe time to update the Plan A strategy.<p>Maybe I shouldn't tell W what I know, it seems like a LB right now. If it continues and I suspect more, then maybe. Right now part of my Plan A is to show W that I am trusting her and allowing her the time and space to work through this. I know we can't begin recovery until ALL contact is over, just got to let W decide when that time is.<p>Thanx to all my friends here for the support and good advice.<p>[ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: loveherstill ]</p>

LHS,<p>I brought this to the top as I may have something to offer you.<p>Please excuse me, I have been lurking for some time and still have my story to tell.<p>Your situation reminds me of my own, so I would like to share some advice with you. <p>Whenever there is waffling, contradicting statements and behaviors, or just plain stupid and unbelievable statements made by a WS you can bet your A that some form of contact is still occurring. You will know when it stops, that is when depression usually sets in and some sort of "normal" behaviour begins.<p>I went through the "trial separation" requests and the "need to find herself" BS from my W (WS) and let me tell you, this is nothing more than a request to carry on the A without you in the picture. <p>You cannot prevent separation if that is what they truly want. But one thing you can and MUST do is insist that you are going nowhere, if she wants to leave, then she's the one who goes, after all, she's the one who created this mess.<p>And if there are children, again, insist that they will be staying with you. <p>Make no bones about any of this. But do it in an assertive way, not aggressive.<p>You are the strong and focused party in this situation, even though you don't feel that way now, you will. By moving out of your own home, not only are you adding insult to your own injury, you are also actually facilitating and validating her intentions and actions. By all means, tell her you love her, but if she wants to separate, it cannot be on her terms.<p>It takes a few large doses of reality to erase the fantasy. It worked for me.

LHS<p>Just one other thing, if you haven't read WAT's "quick start guidelines" thread have a look. It is right on the money. Let us know how you get on.