Any help would be appreciated as to what to do. I was devastated when I found out, I thought my heart was going to drop to the floor. I love her more than words can say - I've not been loving her the way she needs to be loved I guess. Here's the story...
I recently found out my wife of 5 years is having an affair with a guy from Louisiana, we're in MI. We have a three year old son. We're not seperated, she says she loves me but has become very attached to this other guy - she doesn't know exactly how he feels - he has two kids - 8 and 10 - ex-wife drug addict - full custody of kids. I drew a line accross a sheet of paper - his name on one side and mine on the other. I asked where her heart is. She said in the middle. The affair started last November on a business trip (work at same company - different states), they have since been communicating via e-mail and phone at work. Since it started, last November, she's been lying about everything (fear of getting people upset - she's a peace maker, never gets anyone upset, whatever it takes - that's her personality - I don't get upset - even when I found out about this affair in August - hurt but not upset - I'm an analyzer, why did this happen) - she even lies to him - he thought (thinks as far as I know) that we've been seperated and are close friends - not the case - we've been loving towards each other this entire year - even after I found out about it. they have since been on two or three other 'business' trips to meet. She claims they had sex once and of course he's a really nice guy - I don't doubt that - like he'd show anything else - he's got a woman on his business trips (I may be wrong). if he is such a nice guy, wouldn't he choose not to sleep with a married woman - and if he knew the truth he would request she work it out with me or completely leave me and then they can see how it goes? I don't know. I've been kind of pushy in terms of making a decision, him or me. She says it's not exactly about him or me, it's about herself and what she wants - she's searching?? she mentioned at one point a week ago that she's waiting to see how he feels, maybe if he'll relocate or something. She said she is not relocating because of our son. She has become best friends with a girl that's a single mom of an 8 year old. She's very outgoing, says what she thinks, I think my wife envys her - obviously her and I don't get along. She's pushing my wife to leave me, saying she can never be happy with me (what's that?). This friend of hers has become close friends with the lover. How convenient I think.. My big problem is there's a trip scheduled in 2 weeks to see each other again (for the weekend in Detroit & Chicago - 100 miles away), and this friend has invited him to a house warming party some time on the same weekend (to get them together I'm sure) my wife says she has to see him to make her decision. I've been told both ways (and have talked to her about it), either 'set the bird free - see if it comes back - maybe it's true love' and I've been told 'it's a temporary fix, infatuation, it will not resolve her problems and we can fix what we have) I don't want this family to break up but I know it's her decision to make. she say's we've never had a healthy marriage - I agree now that I understand what the problems have been. (we're both to blame, but is that an excuse to give up and run to someone else who makes you feel good) won't these problems resurface if she doesn't work them out? I feel like a failer and want to be a better person for myself and for her, but at this point she's not willing to give it an honest try. After I mentioned this to her, she said, "Fine, I won't go on this trip and be miserable and unhappy for the rest of my life." I think, cop out - Is happiness something that just slaps you in the face - I thought it was something you had to work on - life's not happy all the time. It seems like she's following her feelgood mind set, versus looking at what the affair really is (according to most - besides her friend and probably the lover) Granted we were dating out of high school for 5 years before we got married in 96 - young and immature. but we've started this family and why can't she see that what she's doing is wrong, isn't it? it's running from problems to something that feels good instead of fixing her problems within the marriage and herself. She admits that she's never really 100% committed on working on making things better, she just hoped they would. I never knew anything was wrong because of my personality, since my awareness, I've done a huge change in values, God, the way I look at life for my son's sake and my own. I keep telling her it's wrong.. I think maybe she'll make her decision just to show me I'm not always right,, I don't know. what's wrong and right??, I guess that's something you have to come up with on your own. She says I'm like a father figure to her, and I'm always right. I've done so much reading on affairs - unmet needs, infatuation, excitement of newness - but c'mone, she's only seen this guy three or four times, they communicate over e-mail and some phone - is that love and I'm wrong - I know it only matters for her what she thinks it is - but darnit, how well does she really know him, I'm afraid for her. Can it be love or soulmates - or is he playing her. I'm sure I've left out much detail to completely understand the situation, but please, the more advice and reading I've been doing, the better I feel, or more confused, I don't know. I feel that my family is falling apart and I so badly don't want it to.
I believe I've forgiven her for hurting me in the past - the lies and deceit - she says she's committed to tell any more lies to me. can I trust that? Am I going to be able to forgive her if she goes on this trip right in front of my face? Isn't she saying he's more important than I.<p>And, should I send him an e-mail - I know who it is - or send him this post - so he really knows the truth. One side of me says that's her place to tell him, but what if he has no clue. Don't they say if you cheat on someone to get someone else, you'll more than likely cheat again for that feeling again. I feel sorry for this guy if that's true.... She said she would be pissed if I sent him an e-mail (I said I was going to and never did) but - should I care at this point...<p>[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: tycush ]</p>

"she said she would be pissed if I sent the OM an email telling him the truth." Oh please..... You should immediately send an email and tell him she is still married and not separated. Your letter indicates to me that she see you now as a second choice and a back up. She clearly has little respect for you in that she goes to see the OM and
is sexually intimate with him. I doubt it was only one time.
There is not much more to do except to try to get her into counseling but if she refuses it is difficult. Why should she have all the options in deciding your future. She cheats, lies and has sex with her lover with little or no remorse. She is going to see him again and see if he will have her. If he says no then she will accept you as the
doorprize? I would no longer her dictate the situation and throw the affair in your face. I would send the email. Personally I would contact a lawyer and present her with this information. She is in a fog. She needs to know that there will be ramifications to her actions. Right now she thinks you will always be a backup so she can continue to test the waters. "She would be pissed if I sent an
email to the OM telling him the truth." Oh Please!
Good luck to you.

You're actually right on, thank you. - I guess I'm more afraid of loosing her and I don't want to piss her off - which I know is probably stupid right. Codependancy flashes in my brain. I wish I could get past that need to have her. She's all I know - this is so hard... Also, you're right on about respect, and the doorprize comments. I never looked at it that way before. I guess she's making the decision for her and I need to make a decision for me - either to continue in this manner or move on....

Please understand, these are just my humble opinions.........<p>I think she is trying to turn you into a doormat. Her selfishness and betrayal to you are significant enough to go right into Plan B. Kick her out of the house and let her see the life that she has created for herself. Don't worry about your actions 'making her go into his arms'. There is nothing you can do to stop that. You do not control her actions. Be honest with your kids, and be there for them when the pain comes.<p>I am sorry if this sounds cold, but her actions are the coldest possible towards you and your kids. Think about your kids first, you second, and her somewhere between 86 to 99 on the list.<p>Sometimes anger has a place (as long as we control it).<p>My prayers will be with you. Good luck<p>Gibby1

Gibby1, I do hear you from an anger point of view (that is the anger method right?) but we have a 3 yr old son. does he go with her or stay - then what about custody and all of that. That is mutual on my part and hers. Thanks.

Don't be too hard on yourself Tycush because your
response is quite normal. Unfortunately, most (not all) of the time it does not work. Most spouses are attracted to partners whom they admire and respect which increases their love. The opposite will occur when they have a spouse they can cheat on, lie and totally disrespect and have the spouse still say I love you no matter what. <p>I think your take on codependency may be correct.
Unfortunately for you codependency is not perceived as an attractive quality by many spouses. You spouse must have respect and admiration for you for your marriage to succeed.
The fact that she is not remorseful and tells you she must be with the OM again pretty much tells you what she feels towards you. I know that you are afraid of "pissing her off" by standing up to her but your co-dependent attitude will not work.
If she agrees to stay with you because the OM turned her down after having his fun with her and she shows no remorse and respect for you; ask yourself what is it that you really have.<p>Unless your wife cuts off all contact immediately with the OM and agrees to counseling; then your wife will continue to destroy your self esteem and confidence. I think you and your children deserve better than this in your life. I hope you think you deserve better also. I wish you luck.

Tycush,<p>Bryanp expressed my opinion my better than I did. I guess I got caught up in my own momentary stage of anger. Sorry about that...... But I think we are saying the same thing. Your W has to own up to her actions and face the consequences. She is manipulating you to the point that your family is being torn apart. Custody of the children should be yours, and she should move out to begin 'seeing' and 'feeling' the consequences. No anger, just protecting your children and you.<p>Write her a Plan B letter(you'll find many good drafts on this website that you can change to fit your situation), pack her bags, get her a hotel room for a week and tell her that that week will be enough time for her to find an apartment. I would even suggest getting a separate bank account (leave her a little savings for apartment)to protect you and the kids.<p>Again just my humble opinion...this time without the anger part.<p>Good Luck

Thanks Gibby1 and Bryanp. Her trip is Thursday Dec 13th through I don't know when, probably Sunday, she hasn't clarified that yet. Plus she has not said that YES, she's going. I'm stuck on what you said about being a door prize. Settling for me if he doesn't want her 'that' way. Is it an altimatim or fair if I say, "You go on this trip and I am done, I won't be someone you'll settle for" She says she can't be happy with me unless she finds out for sure what it is she really wants - and she says this trip will help her determine that. With the holidays coming up, this really sucks worse... Thanks for your support.....

Tycush,
You seem to be a really good guy but you are being
so manipulated by your wife. What do you think your wife would say if the roles were reversed.
How do you think she would have responded if you told her I have been on trips in the past and had sex with this woman friend of mine and I love her but I am so confused. I think I will take a trip during the holiday season and be with my lover and have sex with her and see if she wants to spend the rest of her life with me. If not then I will return and stay married to you as a doorprize.<p>Tycush, can't you see what she is doing. She is testing the waters. Why do you wish to be someone she settled for? In addition, the fact that she she shows little remorse indicates that if this lover of hers decides he just wants to play with her and not make a committment; then do you really believe she will now be loving and committed to you forever. I would bet that she would stay with you until she meets someone else down the line and tell you again she must have her fling to know for sure if this is what she wants in her life.<p>Your wife is extremely self-centered and disrespectful to you and has totally lost her moral compass and the concept of what a marriage is. The fact that she would expect you to stay home and pine away for her during part of the holiday season while she has sex with her lover so she can find herself indicates she thinks you are a fool. I guess I would ask you why you want this woman who clearly has no qualms in hurting and destroying your self esteem. My friend you are clearly a doorprize to her. <p>I would make the following requests:
1)Cut off all contact with the OM immediately which means of course no trip.
2)Immediately accept joint marriage counseling<p>If she refuses these requests then I would immediately seek legal advise. Why would you want to be married to a woman who is willing to look for another man and have sex with him while she is married to you? You are being mentally abused by her. I really feel sad for you because you deserve so much more. Why do you have to settle for so little? I wish you luck.

Bryanp, you make it so clear - she says it's not about sex, it's about her happiness. because I love her, how can I be rude and 'kick her out' - we have a 3 yr old son - he needs mom and dad. I've been trying to treat her with respect, plan a. (just started yesterday, I was trying to get her to see things my way - 'what I say is the right way') but by continuing plan a through this trip, she's only taking advantage of me right? cake and eat it to? Why do I love her the way I do - can I love someone that's doing this to me - and 'let' it go on? How can someone do this to someone else and say they love you? Thanks for your words of wisdom, it's just a matter of following through, jumping...

Tycush,<p>You asked very good questions. My opinion would be that her definition of love and the meaning of it is quite different that your definition. You could never imagine yourself doing to someone what she is doing to you if you loved that person. On the other hand, her definition of love makes it purely acceptable for her to do these things to you. Clearly she does not love you within your meaning of the definition.<p>I think your comment that this is all about her
happiness says it all. There is no longer any reason for her to discontinue this behavior now or in the future because it all about her happiness.
You state that your 3 year old son needs a mom and a dad. I agree but all moms and dads are not the same. Would you really want your son to grow up with the value system of your wife? What lessons will she teach him? It is acceptable to cheat and lie and have sex with another person while you are married. Everything is acceptable and it does not
matter who you hurt in your life as long as you do it in the name of finding happiness for yourself.
I would ask myself what characteristics I would want my son to grow up having? Would you want your son to grow up to be honest, kind, generous, respectful and a man of his word? Do you honestly think that your wife will be able to teach him these values? I wish you luck.

Bryanp, thanks again... another question.. given what you said about my W value system (or lack there of - it takes all kinds of people to make the world go round - and I still love her) and it's only about happiness - can a person change their values - and understand that happiness is something you create? my guess is they probably can 'if they want to' but if throughout their entire life it's been about what feels good, no matter who they hurt, that's their defenition of happiness. - thoughts?<p>
My W asked me this morning before work to please let her know before sending the OM this post - if I decide to (she's been reading my posts and your replies) - that would be a big LB she said. Can I get some more opinions on this - should I?<p>I don't want to get her upset - I'm in Plan A right now. Woundn't that be disrespectful - isn't it her place to tell him the truth? I feel I may be saving a man from drowning...<p>and, considering this upcoming trip, I've explained myself and how I feel and she's still not understanding me (maybe she does understand but doesn't care - how can that be possible - she does care and that's what's driving her crazy), nor has she confirmed the trip plans - if she's going, - should I move to Plan B now? Thank You<p>[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: tycush ]</p>

Tycush,<p>I just saw your post and I only have a few minutes. I will try to respond to your questions quickly. I am a college professor and I have two colleagues who are psychology professors. They tell me it would be extremely rare to change a persons values system when they are adults. The desire for happiness is a core belief to your wife and she is willing to do anything to achieve it.
Let me say that she has a right to find happiness.
The question is how she goes about it. Did she seek out counseling with you? I do not know the dynamics of your relationship.<p>My question to you is seriously ask yourself why do you really love her? Why do you love a person who goes on trips and has sex with another man
(I guarantee you it was more than once. This is a typical WS response)and tells you she wants to visit him over a holiday season and clearly have sex and determine whether or not she wants to be with him or return to you?<p>I understand where you are coming from. Your situation happened to me some years ago. I went to a therapist who asked me why did I love her? Why did I love someone who would show me such disrespect and utter contempt for her word and her marriage?
I realized I was more afraid of being left alone.
Years later I am now in a two year relationship with a woman who I respect for her intelligence, beauty and above all her character and value system. It is ironic that my ex-wife is unmarried,
unhappy and still searching for the White Knight.<p>Your comment that you are questioning whether to send an OM an email telling him the truth indicates how somewhat in a fog you are. It would be disrespectful to your wife???? My friend your wife has had sex with this man, she tells him she is separated and she wants to be with him if he will have her. Is this being respectful to you?
You are fearful for standing up telling this man the truth? You are a product of mental abuse. You don't wish her to be upset that your wife's lover know that you are mad. You feel she should tell him the truth like how she has been honest with you in the past? It is just my opinion but I think you are much too soft and I am guessing that your wife uses your understanding and kindness to disrespect you even more. The fact that she still refuses to tell you what her plans are shows her hostility and lack of respect toward you and your marriage.<p>In a previous post you stated that your wife said if you stop her from going she will be forced to stay married to you and be unhappy. Don't you believe it. She may stay married to you for awhile but her core belief is to find happiness and if not this guy then someone else down the line. Has she made a commitment to you and your marriage? NO. Has she shown remorse for cheating, lying and having sex with another man behind your back? No?
I do not mean to be harsh but you have asked for my opinion. Let me end by asking you a question.
What you know now about your wife. If you could go back in time, would you marry her again? I believe you should contemplate this question very seriously. I wish you luck.

I'm new to replying but I am not new to what you are going through. I really recommend reading Dr Harley's book "Surviving an Affair." It helped me to see things through my husband's eyes. However there is no excuse for what he did and what your wife is doing, it is wrong and selfish!!!! My husbands affair was similar more emotional sharing and less sexual, but still wrong. Your wife should not go on the trip. End of subject. Right now she is not only lying to you but also to herself. She is married to you and owes the marriage and your child her FULL effort to work things out. That means the OM has to go. She will miss the "fantasy" but with patience your marriage can be better because it is in the real world. I am very much in love with my husband but he is not fully in love with me yet. I see it in his eyes more and more and actions more and more. He won't have anything to do with "marriage books" but I use them to deal with him and in telling him How I want to be treated. Most importantly love youself. If you need antidepressants or a counselor for awhile get them!! No one deserves to be cheated on. Cheaters don't just cheat on the spouse they cheat the whole family!!!!

Bryanp.<p>I have this 'learning experience' [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] (trying to think positively) posted on other forums. What do you think of this: it's a lot less direct than what you are saying? Thank You so much, I really appreciate your knowledge on this subject.<p>
Tycush,
Well, it is obvious you love your wife. She is a very lucky woman, even if she doesn't fully realize this right now. I don't know everything about you two - so I don't understand what has caused her to look for love outside your marriage. It is important that you understand her though. You may want to review the EN's questionaire with her (if she isn't interested, then fill it out for her). Refelecting on each of these areas may help you to understand what she is going through.
Also, like your wife said, this isn't about you or this OM, it's about her. I understand all the pain you are feeling and I'm certain it sure as hell feels like it's about you - but for awhile, you need to let your pain go and help your wife. She is in the fog - unaware of what she wants. She will say and do things that are very painful to you. But, reading your post, you seem very logical and level headed, so I think you will do well at helping her, despite your pain. You too have to remember that love and happiness is something you have to work for. <p>Try not to LB. Telling this OM will not end your troubles. I feel bad about her upcoming trip. But if she really thinks that another man is her key to happiness, I don't think you have any worries in sending her on her way... you should never look to someone else to fulfill your own happiness, it never works. <p>As for the "unhealthy marriage" - everyone here thinks that is why things turned out this way. The only unhealthy thing was lack of communication. It happens, now you fix it. <p>Good Luck

question for all who's following this post...<p>what if she does go on this trip, how do you interpret that? plan B? now or after? do I move out with my son? do I not let her back in the house (can I do that)? do I move out and leave our son with her? what's best legally, if anyone knows, long term.. do I continue trying to respect her and love her hoping she'll 'see the light' (family values and such) my son is my number one priority - I'm scared mostly for him, if that makes any sense.. I continue to say I Love her - I feel she has been misguided by the Devil - her 'wants' are controlling her - does she have morals and values? I continue to pray for her and myself. Thank You again.<p>Bryanp, I think you answered some of these questions already, I guess I'm just waiting for something to slap me in the face or something. Do I love her? I believe I do - she's not the person I fell in love with right now though, duh, I guess. I really appreciate your previous posting - that did hit my heart and I have to think about the things you said for a bit.

Bryanp,<p>Your quote - "What you know now about your wife. If you could go back in time, would you marry her again? I believe you should contemplate this question very seriously."<p>I have been thinking about this a great deal since I've read it. The answer is huge YES! If I knew then what I know now I would have been a better person for myself inside and outward, provided her the needs she needed so she wouldn't have needed to resort to the OM. I've always known that she's a happy person when things feel good, she's very concious about how she looks (she's beautiful 'not made up' with makeup - I guess I see more than pretty clothes), she doesn't like attention, - I have to stop, because what am I saying. "I see more than clothes" what really do I see - ... She's slid off the path, thinking that instead of something is going to make her happy (like a different outfit) - it's a different, new and exciting guy. I also agree with several postings I've read that she's lost inside, not happy within, doesn't see that the sun is up there regardless if it's cloudy. I am quite the opposite. I see opportunity in this entire situation. I was only thinking with this family, and we can learn from our mistakes, but if she decides not to work on that and to continue to go off 'our' path, new doors will open for me - God never stears you wrong, nor does he give you more than you can handle. (it's just getting to the point of actually believing that and acting on it that's the hard part). ok, pour more later. Thanks for listening. -Ty

To Tycush, <p>It sounds like love to me. The fact that you could answer that question in the affirmative sounds like you have great love for this woman. Hopefully down the line she will move out of the fog and see what a great person you are. If not then it is her lost.
I would again try to get her into counseling and realize there are many programs called marriage encounters where married couples can attempt to renew and restore their love for each other. I wish you all the luck in the world.

Is there anyone following this post that is in WS shoes? any input from that perspective would be appreciated. Thank You.

WS asked me "so I should put others before myself?" after I talked about (she asked) my defenition of love - (meeting needs of one another, respect, providing unconditional love (shouldn't this situation be one of the 'unsaid' conditions). Is putting other's needs before yourself lack of respect for yourself - therefore doing what she's doing is ok?<p>Is what she's doing completely selfish and because I love her, I should 'allow' (for myself) to continue with this pain until she "figures it out"?<p>She says she needs to clarify things with OM on this trip. ie. how he feels etc... she says that's not to say IF he says he wants a long term permanent relationship that she's going to leave me for him. I said why not clarify things over the phone? no concrete response...<p>My WS told me she has a friend who she can relate to - friend's H never new (doesn't know) it was happening - my WS asks "does it make my situation less holy'er than hers, or more disrespectful"? the friend's OM wanted a life relationship - she felt in love with him, but chose to reconcile her marriage for family and grow love back to H. She still talks to OM. H doesn't know. My WS is rationalizing with her, maybe looking for justification that going to see him is ok, regardless if I know or not. She says isn't it being respectful that she's being honest with me about this.<p>I'm not LBing her in any way here (I don't think) - in some way, I'm looking for some one to explain to me so maybe I can see what she's doing is ok or something... or tell me how wacked I am. Thank You.