<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Rickv:
<strong>... We are very cordial and nice to each other but it is still like living with a roommate.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Time and presistence will bring back affections, right now you are the evil man that "break" her dream. You are the messager that she wants to kill. Patience, patience.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>All I can do is be nice because I cant give affection or recreational companionship only conversation. I have been doing alot of activities with the kids and she has complained that I am spending more time with the kids and she hasnt and says I will use that against her.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Good don't bring up the ring anymore, it will be good sign for you in the future if she starts wearing it. Rick, there is a lot of miss conception about you have to fill in their EN(s) while in plan A. No you don't have to show changes by applying it to WS. All you need to show is you are capable of doing it !. You are doing it correctly that you show you are capable of RA by doing it w/ your kid. You should show your affections to your kid too. Wrote some poem or write a nice card every week, bring flower every weekend. You do not need to hug the person to say I care. Try different avenues. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] About using against her you could tell her that 50-50 coustody you are going to settle with no matter the outcome is.

Just began reading HNHN. So far its an excellent book. Wife says her feelings haven't changed for me. I just said I'm very lonely and it feels like having a roomate and not a marriage. I asked if she is looking for a job (she hasn't worked for 12 years)and she said yes in case I call a lawyer. In past when angry I lb'd and said things I didn't mean such as calling one. Well I am NOT calling and have told her that several times. I have stopped saying things I dont mean. I may have started to LB a little last nite when I brought up how difficult her life and kids and mine will be if she leaves. I wanted to talk because she was down but she said we never conversed deeply during marriage and I said I would like to try if you let me. We ended up not talking.

Still working plan A. I am being very nice always and have not gotten angry at her or kids for over 2 1/2 weeks. She said she is waiting for nrext blowup of mine but I WILL NOT let it happen even if she pushes buttons.<p> I love her very much. I married the love of my life and want her to stay.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Rickv:
<strong>I love her very much. I married the love of my life and want her to stay.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Remember that when you are about to LB'ed, it helps. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Tonight I asked my wife to read some MB books I have purchased and she said she needs books on how to force her to love me. She says she loves me but isnt in love with me and never has been. She doesnt want me meeting any emotional needs. I complained she is out of house alot and she said her counselor says its understandable because she has friends her are listening to her not telling her what to do. Even the OM told me some not all of her new friends are a bit crazy and I think she is screwed up royally. I said staying out is a detriment to our relationship and she is also ignoring her kids. I told her I cant believe she NEVER LOVED me because if I do 14 years was a lie. I cried and told her that her saying she never loved me hurts bad and she said it hurt living with that for all those years. This conversation was LBing.<p>The other day when I spoke to OM he said he probably couldn't have a long term relationship with her because he couldnt trust her. He is worried she would do same thing to him.

Rickv,
Yes, you did major LB. You should not have "educate" your wife about EN, let her talk to Steve or Jennifer !. Also Rickv, read your own posts ... because she has friends her are listening to her not telling her what to do. Your missed big time on your plan A, she doesn't see you changing in this area.<p>The other day when I spoke to OM he said he probably couldn't have a long term relationship with her because he couldnt trust her. He is worried she would do same thing to him.
Talking about sleeping w/ enemy ... I would not give a dime on his word. How do you know that OM did not try to put poison on your mind then get her back ???.<p>Rick, I am worry about you now. Stop pushing your frustration on your W. Avoid to talk about R if you can not handle it.<p>[ January 05, 2002: Message edited by: redhat ]</p>

Had several good days with wife. No LB's. Had good conversation with each other and felt very comfortable at all times. We had no relationship conversation at all. I have no desire to talk about A or to educate wife anymore. It has taken me awhile to get that thru my head. I also notice my wife is reading HNHN now but I wont bring up the book at all. I have suggested we go skiing soon with the boys and she seems very receptive. I continue to do activities with the boys and am enjoying it. I have asked my wife to go to movies or comedy show with me only but have gotten no answer. I only asked once or twice and then forgot about it. I dont want to push her. I have not gotten angry with her since December 18. I will keep at it as best I can

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Rickv:
<strong>Had several good days with wife. No LB's. Had good conversation with each other and felt very comfortable at all times. We had no relationship conversation at all. I have no desire to talk about A or to educate wife anymore. It has taken me awhile to get that thru my head. I also notice my wife is reading HNHN now but I wont bring up the book at all. I have suggested we go skiing soon with the boys and she seems very receptive. I continue to do activities with the boys and am enjoying it. I have asked my wife to go to movies or comedy show with me only but have gotten no answer. I only asked once or twice and then forgot about it. I dont want to push her. I have not gotten angry with her since December 18. I will keep at it as best I can</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Good job Rick, also look for improving on other areas. Is she complain about affection ? ... bring in flowers once a week, give her a nice love cards and surprise her with small surprise. Is she complain about conversation ?. Call her during day time and set a side time to talk about nothing. About current event or anything that interest her. It will take a while but be patience. PTC !!!.

Well My wife and I had a 2 1/2 hour phone conversation about our marriage and relationship. It was a bit emotional but no anger or lB's. We both know now how we feel. My wife says she never loved me and there is nothing left for me. She says MB is for people who can rekindle past feelings of love not force them to love someone. I explained MB since she has only read some of one book and her counselor advised not to talk to Jennifer. I asked her to fill out EN questionaire but she says it might hurt me then I said It cant hurt anymore than I am. She does not want me meeting any of her En's but does acknoledge I have changed and have become nicer to be around.
She says the only nice thing she can do for me is bring a cup of coffee home once in a while nothing more. She doesnt want me to get wrong impressions if she shows any type of affection. <p>
I will keep at it since I have only been working a true plan A for 3 weeks after 8 weeks of anger and LB's. I asked my wife for patience and time to see if her feelings change but it does seem very DIM here since it appears she truly believes she never loved me.<p>What do you do when your spouse believes she doesnt love you and says she never did?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Rickv:
<strong>.... She says MB is for people who can rekindle past feelings of love not force them to love someone. ... </strong><hr></blockquote>
She is wrong but you can not "educate" her. Give me a chance to fill in EN(s), I will no LB, give me at least 15 hours min/week ... I could make anybody fall in love. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>I explained MB since she has only read some of one book and her counselor advised not to talk to Jennifer.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why ? what is the reasoning of that conselor ?, did you talk to that conselor and get the fact straight ?.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>I will keep at it since I have only been working a true plan A for 3 weeks after 8 weeks of anger and LB's. I asked my wife for patience and time to see if her feelings change but it does seem very DIM here since it appears she truly believes she never loved me.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, this is the only way for now. It is too short.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>What do you do when your spouse believes she doesnt love you and says she never did?</strong><hr></blockquote>
My WW has been saying the same thing. How come she married me and beared my 2 D ?. You see, in the case of my WW, there are at least three people that influencing her and she believed them since it is easier to put the blame. We are in the same boat. Steve Harley told me to chipping away slowly, make sure the attribute that she says it is love are shown in your action. Make sure that she beleive you love her. Spend time with her, and take what she offers you. When the wall crumble, it will come down at once.<p>Think, think and think what and how to shake her believe ?. I am trying to do the same.<p>[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: redhat ]</p>

Today my wife and I filled out the emotional needs survey. I already knew what the first two were- affection and conversation. I have been working on conversation and she has been somewhat pleased with it but wants me to open up more which I am trying to do already. Affection is another story. Right now she has told me she doesnt want cards, flowers, hugs,holding hands or kisses. I must find different ways to show affection and be patient. She filled out that the financial support, family commitment and domestic support I give are fine. Two emotional needs I do not meet are honesty and openess and physical attractiveness. I am working on being more open and have started working out and losing weight.<p> At least we are now talking closer about ourselves and I know her En's so I plan to continue in my plan A and not LB. I found that our conversations can be much deeper on the phone as the books say- It does work. I pray for my wife every day and hope she comes to her senses

Rickv,
You could combine both affection and conversation, sneek in once in a while some affection during conversations. Showing some thoughtfull comment on her. Also now she is rejecting you but you have to try once in a while w/ a smaller acts and stop if she rejects it if she wants to. Test the water occationally, once a week ... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>You are on the right track and keep it no LB'ed.<p>[ January 12, 2002: Message edited by: redhat ]</p>

It's been an uneventful week. Only 1 conversation with LB's by me. Wife didnt want to go to my brothers wedding because she was worried what my family would think. I told her we were BOTH invited and I would like her to go and she agreed although she wanted to ask her counselor first. Wife is mad that I am in good standing with my side and her side of family. I just told her that is because she is the one who strayed. She complained because I called her sister for some info (which She suggested) and I went in the other room because I knew she would ask how things are going. Wife complained that I am giving everyone the dirt on us. This is not true; the only people I have talked to about R in the last month is a friend at work, my counselor and this site. <p> I am still doing well conversation wise and trying some affection such as kisses when going out, occasional hugs and back rubs but am still getting nothing back. It is very lonely sometimes.<p> Wife also agreed to go to rodeo with family since she complained I am doing more with the kids and she hasn't.
She still doesnt want to talk to Jennifer because her counselor advised it.
I am working hard at being there for wife and children and havent been angry for very long time. I am trying to be someone my wife (or anybody for that matter)
would like to be around.

Rickv
It is an evenfull week, rick !. You only LB'ed once ... a very good sign it is becoming a habit. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] When your wife accusing you putting "dirt" on her, you should say "Honey, putting dirt on you it means I am a dirt too or married to a dirt. Don't you think I am not ashame too ?, people love you but disagree with your past behavior, they will have to get over it". [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ... It is not only BS that have to deal with selfesteem, actually WS too. Be there for her. Learn how to speak fogesse back.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>I am still doing well conversation wise and trying some affection such as kisses when going out, occasional hugs and back rubs but am still getting nothing back. It is very lonely sometimes.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hey, count your blessing !!! could be worst.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Wife also agreed to go to rodeo with family since she complained I am doing more with the kids and she hasn't.{/qb]<hr></blockquote>
Family that do thing together stays together. My W started not doing simple thing together like going to the super market w/ us ... a warning that I refuse to see. To safe time she said ... safe whose time ?.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>[qb]She still doesnt want to talk to Jennifer because her counselor advised it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why ? what is the reason ? and also do you talk to this conselor to find out why ?.

We went to rodeo on Sunday. Everyone had a really good time except one son. Wife said she saw friend she knew and went to see the person. She came back a few minutes later and I thought nothing of it. Later I asked who it was and it turned out to be OM working in the show. I tried my best not to let it spoil the day and it didnt. It was hard looking at wife staring at OM and smiling even though he was so far away he couldnt see her.
Later that night wife actually acknoledged a change in me because I didnt get really angry at sons misbehaving and didnt brood over it and let it ruin the day for all. She acknoledged I am not trying to control everything all the time any more.
Wife really likes horses and rodeo and I enjoyed myself. I will try to keep interest in one of her favorite activities and go with her which I didnt in past even though we watched on tv together.

Rickv,<p>Good work Rick. Just hang in there, make sure that your W see your changes. Also you could tell her that you see her smile and it is hard for you. Tell her as a FYI, no demand and no judgment. It is not an LB and see how she reacts.<p>Your W will come around but very slow. You have to be very patience.<p>I am still miff about her counselor prohibiting her to talk to Jennifer. Could you elaborate the reasoning ?. Could you go and talk to this conselor to find out why ?. Too bad there is no conselor's black list in this forum. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img]

Redhat,
I had a talk with W last nite about our R and M. I asked what her feelings were regarding leaving and staying. She said she felt the same that saving the M is like beating a dead horse. She said once again there is no spark between us and that she feels as though she is limbo and cant leave because she has no job and wont see the kids as much if she leaves.
I asked why she doesnt want to try to talk to Jennifer and she didnt respond and why she wont see a marriage counselor together again. She said its because she doesnt want to get affectionate or physical with me anymore. She said her counselor told her "she had permission not to be affectionate with me if she didnt want to". I just replied its what you want not that you got permission. Her counselor wants her to do more things alone including grocery shopping (which is the only thing we do alone together out of the house).
Once again I told her I only would like some affection, time together away from children and home once in awhile, phone calls at work and to get a coffee together occasionally.
Her friends apparantly are amazed she is still in house with me from what she said. She also said her counselor is not mentioning our marriage or relationship at all. Mine isnt either and I told her its because its individual counseling not MC.
When I asked why she couldnt be affectionate with me she didnt respond and I truly believe she feels this way because she is still in love with OM.I probably shouldnt have but I asked why she could be affectionate with OM and not me but didnt get a response. According to her EN survey I am doing ok with conversation, honesty and openness, financial commitment but not affection or recreational companionship. Of these top 5 she doesnt want the last two from me even though I try to be affectionate and ask to do things together. Recreational companionship is my #2 EN also.
A month ago this coversation would have stopped with an argument or screaming by me but it was only strained a couple times and continued thru several different stoes while shopping. That is definately an improvemnt.

Rickv,<p>My heart & prayer goes to you. It is hard when there is third person involvement that doesn't help M. You have to keep plan A'ng. Recover begins when both spouse willing to work on M. You are doing good by reviewing your plan A, keep doing it and fine tunning it.<p>No LB though, you still LB'ed all over the place with her.<p>IMVHO, you should take a break from chasing her. Show your changes to your KIDS. Keep doing recreational activity w/ them and invite W to join , if she refuses just say o'k and leave !!!, no LB. Same thing with affectionate, show is more to your kids, show it that you are capable of it. Chasing her will make you frustrated. So no demand, o'k ? ... no judgement either, o'k ?. Let her go and do your plan A the best you can and show it via your kids. If she allows you to then fillin her EN(s) otherwise let it go and show no interest of chasing her. Just say plain "see you later honey." and go.<p>Learn how to be a better husband. If she doesn't turn around and your kids are out from the house, you could have a fullfilling relationship with the one would gladly take it. For now plan A and no LB'ed. You might have to do plan B down the road.<p>[ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: redhat ]</p>

Redhat,
Thanks for your input. I will back off from trying to get affection from her. I have been doing more with kids and will try even more. I have been having no expectations from W for a long while and it has helped but the other nite I had to ask how she felt because it had been 2-3 weeks since I asked previously. I felt so good for so long I guess I had higher expectations from how comfortable we have been together thr last few weeks except for lack of affection from her.

Had a good weekend and early week. Everything ok with W and myself. No LB's and we seem to be getting along quite well except for any affection. My wife finally did ask for names of MC for us to see. Her counselor wants us to see someone she knows and approves so the MC can hear both our sides and ask questions. Our first MC didnt ask any questions and just put us in a canned program and it didnt work. We only lasted 6 sessions.
I am keeping my expectations low because I still dont know if W will try to use MC to help relationship and keep M going. She asked for it after only 3 days after saying "saving the M was like beating a dead horse". I dont know if W and counselor want to use MC to have counselor hear her views and say that M is over and then educate me that life wont be bad after D and it wont be devastating to kids etc.

I am beginning to get frustrated with my wife and resentment is creeping into my thoughts again. This causes me to pull away and clam up when I am around her. It started because I asked to sit next to her with my arm around her and she replied "lets not confuse the situation. I let it go but it has been bugging me. Its been almost 4 months since discovery day and she still treats me as a roommate. I am getting soooo tired of this. I know I have to have PTC but its hard. I have not LB'd for a couple weeks and was in a great mood for all that time until a couple days ago.