IMO, just give it all to your kids. Do not push her at all. Have you talk to Jennifer lately ?, probably it is time again. Get Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus book, let me know what do you think. You could show affections w/o being physical. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by redhat:
<strong>Rickv,<p>I am still miff about her counselor prohibiting her to talk to Jennifer. Could you elaborate the reasoning ?. Could you go and talk to this conselor to find out why ?. Too bad there is no conselor's black list in this forum. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote><p>I think it is seen as unethical by some professionals. I had consulted with two counselors and the second one told me they could not see me because it was unethical for them to see me while I was seeing another counselor for the same thing. Had something to do with possible conflicting advice.

W's individual counselor doesnt want her to talk to Jennifer because she didnt know her. Wife has agreed to see a MC with me but her individual counselor must know the MC and the MC must also be a drug/alcohol counseler. I have agreed because I figure it cant hurt the R. I just hope seeing this MC is not to educate me on D and show that D will be ok for both of us and kids etc. W mentioned that in past I said D would be devastating to kids before she mentioned MC. She also has finally signed papers allowing my individual C to talk to hers. I havent got any feedback yet from my C.
In past W says saving the R is like beating a dead horse and hasnt filed because she doesnt have a job and wont see kids as much. BUT she still hasnt updated her resume and actually called for interviews. So I stay in plan A for now but it is getting harder.

Thanks Longing for the explanation but I still miff about traditional C that concentrate on current condition of their patience rather than the whole picture of family and work on the problem.<p>Rickv,
I would contact Jennifer and get her take on it otherwise you will just get frustrated. MB has a lot of experiences, you will be surprise. Stale M is not what you want neither stale plan A.

Well its been 1 1/2 weeks since I posted. Things are same w ith W. She has now said there is no chance of reconsiliation. She wont give any affection to me because she doesnt want to give me any hope. She said she hasnt filed because her counselor doesnt want her to and her counselor told her to put job search on backburner. Her counselor wants us to see a MC and from what the W says IT IS to educate and prepare us for divorce and how to deal with kids. My counselor is going to call hers to verify.<p>I am very tired of living with a woman who is very nice to me (housemate) but completely unaffectionate and who wont do anything with me alone except go to the grocery store. She spends hours out of the house and I feel like a professional babysitter for her. I only LB'd once in the past week and a half after she stayed out till 4 AM with friends. The next day at 1 pm when she was still sleeping I took kids out for lunch. She claims she is excluded from activities with kids. What a crock! I know she has to go to her AA meetings but she stays for 3-4 hours after every meeting. I like going out with kids when she is gone. I dont want to be cooped up just so she feels better.<p>I am seriously thinking of getting a D. This is a woman who was drunk on and off for 12 years. Finally she sobers up but then has a 1 1/2 year affair and gets pregnant. I find out and she pulls completely away tells me she never loved me, married me to get away from her dad because she didnt know anyone else,cringed whenever I touched her for 14 years (3 kids), tells me saving the relationship is like beating a dead horse, says There is no hope for relationship, will never make love to me again, kept the affair going to MAKE SURE she was in love with OM among others things.
The woman has shown little if any remorse and wants to be friends afterward and cant understand why I will fight for kids instead of a 50-50 split. She cant understand why my family AND hers are buddy buddy with me not her.<p>Is 4 months with NO affection or intimacy normal in this situation? She put me over the edge last week by staying out till 1 am thursday, 3 am friday and 4 am on saturday.Should I wait longer? I dont know and need advise. My counselor says I am detaching but doesnt want me to do anything because I am not in a hurry. HELP!!!!

Rickv,<p>Wait for your MC to call hers ... to verify her story. Doesn't make sense if you want Dv but no job search ... even traditional C will try to make your W more independent.<p>From what you are describing, are you sure there is no A ?. Have you snoop lately ?. I agree w/ you to take your family around and too bad if she doesn't want to join. Invite her but if she refuses, still go ahead ... w/o her.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Should I wait longer? I dont know and need advise. My counselor says I am detaching but doesnt want me to do anything because I am not in a hurry. HELP!!!!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I agree w/ your conselor, you should not file for Dv. You might have to do plan B but it is hard w/ kids and even harder if W refuses to move out. BTW, in CA, you could file for custody w/o Dv. I think you should wait a bit and talk with your MC about plan B. Meanwhile, why not have a mini vacation w/ your family and if W refuses, take it as a mini break from her.<p>[ February 19, 2002: Message edited by: redhat ]</p>

Last friday night I decided to see if wife was over at friends house where she goes twice a day to take care of animals while friend is on a 10 day trip. I found OM there in driveway but not W. I was VERY ANGRY then calmed down. He assured me there has been nothing physical between them and he needed to talk because his girlfriend (who knows of affair since I told her on the phone) is leaving him with her daughter and apparently moving far away.
He says he saw W week before for first time in a long time and they talked. He says W told him she wants a divorce but is scared to file. Of course now I am worried that they can see each other easily at his house with the girlfriend out of the way.Why else would he see her.
The next day W said I never talk about relationship and I said thats because you say things such as there is no hope, no chance of reconcilliation etc and it hurts. Other times when I told her my feelings to her she would say "I know how you feel already". I told my wife all I would like is some touching, hand holding, sitting next to me; things I havent gotten in 4 months. I told her I dont expect sex, I just want a little affection, ANY affection.I told her I am lonely.
My counselor still hasnt called hers and I keep leaving messages and E-Mails.
At least W went over my parents house for our twins birthday party. First time in 4 months since discovery day. Also now when I want to do something with kids I ask if she wants us to wait for her so she can go so she cant say she feels excluded. Its her choice then.
I have decided I will go to MC wife's counselor wants us to got to.
I am still trying to stay in plan A. Occasional LB's when R talk starts and thats why I avoid it.

Rickv,
Good work Rick, I am also try to avoid talking about R, we are not ready yet. I am reducing LB'ed. What other complaint that she has on you that you have not working on it yet ?. You already proven her wrong about your angry outburst ... you scores point on family commitment ... Please do a health check on your plan A. I am sorry that the situation is heating up again. However I am pretty sure you could make your home a better choice for your W. Again consistent, patience and time will rattle your W's beleives. Too bad to stay and too good to leaves ... what we have done is eliminating the bad reasoning by plan A. It will take time for WS to beleive or accept the situations since the bad reasoning didn't happen over night either.

Redhat,
I have been doing everything I can to help around the house and with the kids. W says That was never a problem before. Angry outbursts at everyone was a real bad problem but they have stopped for over 2 months; the last one was in december. She says I am doing a lot better on conversation (no R talk). Of her 5 most important needs I did worst on physical appearance (gained a lot of weight since we were married) although I have lost 15 pounds since D day and am still working at it. I believe she thinks our home is a nice and safe place right now for her. She doesnt want to do anything recreational with me only and I still ask once in a while. At home things have been very good between us and I dont argue and am keeping myself in good spirits even w/o any affection.
Apparently she has been waiting for me to file and has been checking the mail every day. Its ironic because I have been worried she would file because of the things she has said to me. The thought creeps into my head sometimes but I quash the thought.
I keep going and am fine if I have no expectations but get down if I expect affection or companionship because of something she says or does and it doesnt come about.
I do worry about the other man and the fact he will be available more readily and they can go to his house now that his girlfriend is gone.
Hopefully the MC we will see in future will help the R if not our future may be less cloudy.
I dont think there is anything else I am doing that is bothering her. I think I am doing a pretty good job of making permanent changes to myself.I know the kids are happier and the environment at home is soooo much better.
She just says there is no spark between us and never has been. You are right PTC is what it takes.

Rickv,
Yeap, let WS sees that we are a better choice and since A is out of selfishness, WS will be back ... is a matter of time. Thanks for the update [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .

I havent posted for over two weeks. Things at home are very comfortable. I have not lb'ed in weeks and have had no reason to. I still havent received any affection other than goodbye kisses from W. No conversation about R but conversations do lean occasionaly toward long term, hopefully meaning she will stay. I have made permanent changes to myself and W has acknoledged changes in children toward me several times. I havent had an angry outburst in months. We see a MC in 2 days and I figure this is when I will see what W wants in future while we have an impartial observer. I hope things go well as I love her very much. I have been trying not to have expectations but as the MC date gets closer I am getting nervous and starting to run scenarios in my head which is not good.

Well, a couple big things happened this week. My counselor called hers and was told what I expected. My wife wants a D and the MC she wants is to educate us on breaking up nicely and how to handle the kids. I have been in a good plan A for 3 months after 2 months of a bad plan A.
The MC session went well. The counselor told my wife she was insensitive when staying out late almost every night and that she was in a state of adolescence in her recovery. Also she said the OM was NOT looking out for her best interest and that there is more to M than feeling good about someone. This is fine and dandy but not helping the M. The wife stated what she wanted and I also. Things were pretty amicable because I had heard everything before. We go again next week. Things look bad for the M right now. The counselor also said remember that a D affects our kids and also their kids. The effects go on for years- it was a profound statement.

Rickv,<p>Honestly, this is all you could do actually. You have try your best to meet her half way and now it is up to her to figure out either to push you away w/ Dv or to work on M. Just keep it up what you have done and watch her to turn around on her own ... no one could help her w/ that.<p>-RH-

Redhat,
The second MC session was a disaster. The first thing the wife said was she felt the same and wanted out. That coupled with what my C told me after speaking to hers and overhearing a giddy schoolgirl conversation of hers about the M and the OM with a friend made me angry. The MC said she didnt want to see us anymore as a couple. W kept bringing up ideas like us doing kids homework together after D. She thinks we will be best buddiesb and I cant. I truly have resentments because of A, especially after being completely rejected since DD with a few halfhearted apologies thrown in. Its been 5 months and she hasnt changed toward me. Its not a marriage anymore but a convenience for her. Obviously during the 18 month affair neither party was thinking straight or about the future.
The MC kept trying to have W compare life in M with future life and how kids will be affected. After the session the MC told me in private that W doesnt seem to know consequences and how short a D takes. She also said W has reacted to whole situation since DD strangely. Its all we couls talk about until W came back in room.
W just got a decent job she really likes but with under the table wages but cant keep it with a D. I go see a new lawyer this week as I was unhappy with the billing for the initial conference with my first one. I am truly torn. I dont want a D because I love her and because of the disruption to kids but 5 months of rejection is really bothering me enough to maybe proceed.

Rickv,<p>We try our best and at some point we need to do triage ... to save what we can. Save our own sanity and dignity also maybe to save our kids from continues disregard of M. That why there is plan B or maybe Dv is the way to go. If you has been plan A'ng the best you can and there is no effect or WS rejects all attempts and disregard your plan A then plan B should be in place or even legal separation if your state has one.<p>Either you ignored the situation and go on your merry way and focus on your kids or you start taking actions. No one fault you, you have try your best and show your best side ... if WS still unrattle by it, you are looking for long haul or calling it out.<p>Hang in there as long as you can and vent in here. -RH-