Torizo,
Thanks, I have yet receive happy birthday from her. She keeps withdrawing LB$ ... I need to check in next week w/ SH to watch out so that I won't snap.<p>A) Physical is not as important as emotional. I rather have my WW away but "talk" to me than she spend a few hours a week here at home and "roommate" arrangement.
B) The more you push it the more it is going to be difficult. Specially everytime you talk to her, she felt guilty and you play on it. She will tried to reduced her pain. You talk more to your W than me or rev to our WW combined probably.
C) A lot. Learn how to talk and how to listen. Talk about your/her day, hers/your intimate feeling aside from relations, or even talk about nothing (something that you talk for hours but forget as soon as you hang up). If OM is ready to take her and/or she is willing to take less, your M will be over. Plan A usually as short as 6 weeks as long as 2 years and in average is 6 months.

But she never "wants" to talk, I ask her about things, and she seems "distant", like she could care less if I'm talking to her or not. I have tried to tell her things I feel, No LB, and she just doesn't care. I ask her about things, and somewhere during our conversations, always comes from her, it's over. It's really frustrating.<p>I love her deeply and do care about her, but she won't let me know how "she" feels inside, I know...fog. but still, it would be nice to know something.<p>so, I think the biggest problem, is we no longer talk, and when we do it seems I am talking to a tree or a brick wall.<p>and her comment when I asked her to spend an evening with me, and she said I don't think OM wold like that too much, (F*&# him, I should be the one that matters most, not OM) that really steams me. so I'm really starting to feel, if A doesn't die soon, all may be lost and she won't come back, at least not in the forseeable future...<p>What should I do Guys(and Girls)...?

Torizo,
I need to take a break too from time to time, but that doesn't mean I have to go to plan B. You could pull back w/o plan B ... actually in plan A that is all about, work on yourself regardless of her action. Call or no call.<p>
DUTY CALL, I have to bring my 2 D to their activities ... see you later<p>[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: redhat ]</p>

Hi T,<p>For right now (been saying this for a while) but for right now, step back. Your W is not ready to talk because she is not ready to face the consequences. <p>U on the other hand are in the fixer mode. You want to fix it, put is behind you and move on. Right? <p>I totally understand. Me too! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] But the old saying about 'you can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink'!??! Applies here!!! <p>This will take time. More time than has already past. I wondered how I would make it through the 1st month. With my anxiety attacks, OW claiming to throw me in jail, OW claiming to be prego, OW accusing me of making her lose the baby (I have never even met the OW - oh yea it was my 1 phone call where all I said is: May I speak to S____ and she said "FU"...), WS moving out, WS telling our son that he could not be his father anymore, etc.) All that in the 1st month. Wow.... looking back over the past 13 months, a lot has happened. But I am here. A lot of it goes to being at MB, prayer, going to my meeting, friends, family, some counseling sessions and my love for my H and family. Oh yea, and I am a stubborn ol coot! LOL! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>You will also. I will send you the revised plan A and B threads later. It might do you good. <p>Have you looked at the book "love must be tough" by Dr Dobson? Might give you a different insight. Good book. <p>Take Care,
L.

and at this point I have "stepped back". Hence the plan B,It states to contact me when She wants to start working on M. So I am working on my life now, otherwise there will be "nothing" to come back to.<p>I can't find that book, but I'm looking, I also picked up SAA today, going to read it.<p>I feel "lost" at this point and maybe anxious too.<p>i am thankful to have all of you to help me through this.<p>God Bless.

Fairly common feelings (lost and anxious). I share this thread a lot about 5 stages of grieving. Forgive me if I already sent it to you but I looked back a few posts and didn't see it. <p>Been working too hard and the mind is starting to go...... <p>Here it is: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002494.html <p>Let me know what you think. It is when I start to feel that way is when this thread is recalled. It has helped me many a time come out of the slumps. <p>Take Care,
L.

that does clear things up abit, and is, well uplifting.<p>I was depressed the first week or so after she left, but now the depression is gone(doing lots of stuff to keep"happy"). But now it's a new feeling, or at least new to me, I think it's the uncertainty of it all, before this happened our life had "direction" and but now it's like tring to go five different ways at once, and not knowing which way is the "right" way.<p>I know this, I love her, and I don't want to lose her, and even after this A, I am still willing to fight for our M. But...the questions remain, does she still love me? is a "part" of her really willing to work on our M? and perhaps the biggest question, wil she come back?(which I don't think can be answerd one way or the other).<p>It is that uncertainty that is "messing" with my mind. I try not to think about it much, but it is all there in the back of my mind.<p>I can't give up, but I'm statrting to feel "worn out", I just wish it were all "said and done" so we could either try to fix our M, or (God forbid)go our seperate ways(Which I feel is what she wants, but at the same time she is uncertain.
[See below.]<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I dropped of her stuff, we talked about a couple things, including how and what she needs to file papers, you know what she said, this floors me "there's really no hurry you know". then what the F*^$ are you doing this for? <hr></blockquote><p>and I know at this point she don't know what she wants because of the fog.<p>I went to plan B in hopes to "give her a taste" of what it IS like without me, in hopes it will make her "see" a little.( I don't know what the outcome will be)<p>and as for calling her, she just never seems "interested" in me if I call, as OM is always "right up her @$$" whenever we talk.<p>I just don't know what to do, other than continue to improve myself and my life. and hopefully she'll come back. (I just hope I am not pushing her away)<p>What are your thoughts?

That's what we call 'fence sitting'. You on one side and why in the world a total stranger has an equal portion on the other side of the fence is beyond me but there they are. STanding there as if they have been there the whole time!!! Go figure. <p>No don't go figure, you will just get a headache. See, you can not figure out illogic. So don't go there. As crazy as all this seems and the methodology suggested here you'd think we would all be committed to the looney house by now. But we are not. <p>Some of us have decided to take up a 2nd language. fogese. It is amazing how quickly the WS learns this language. They use the same phrases and think they are unique. They walk around waffling and fence sitting instead of walking on the sidewalk and sitting on chairs like normal people. <p>Think about this. If you saw a person 'waffling' down the street, taking up both sides of the sidewalk, stepping into other people's lawns without a care in the world and then see them sitting on the fence eating their dinner, sleeping on the fence post every night. What would you think of that person? Hm...... well in a mental sense that is what our spouses are doing and others are viewing them as such. It is not as much of a secret as they would like to think. I mean come on.... our kids can pick up on it at a very young age. <p>Did I tell you about the 3 year old whose dad is the WS telling his mom that dad has become just like one of those aliens in the movie MIB? 3 years old......think its a secret to anyone else? Yet that man thinks no one really knows and has kicked his wife and son out of their home rendering them homeless. This man of the community thinks no one knows. Right. See the fog? <p>Now we (bs and friends) try very hard to prevent our individual WS' from looking that stupid but some them just gotta try. Just think (again), if your child hung around someone who was teaching them bad habits (how to talk back to their parents, lie, cheat, steal, etc.) and you found out, would you allow your child to associate with such a person? Nope. So why do our spouses get to get away with it?<p>I'll let you ponder that for a while.... I have to get back to work, that crazy report finally finished printing.... LOL!! he he he [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>L.

OUCH....my brain hurts, You are right though, maybe we should be committed.lol [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>It is all bass-ackwards. how does on's brain get so "screwed up"? I mean to let the "fog" and confusion set in?<p>The really sad part in all of this is, I can't even rationalize what she is doing, I have been place in the same situation at some point, and to me it was wrong, and therefore would betray trust and love I have for my other half, and so, I would end the action(s) even before it could start.<p>I can't fathom in a milllion years,how anyone can justify an A in their mind, fog or no fog, it's morally wrong. The more I think of it the less sense it makes.<p>even in terms of "putting myself in their shoes" , so to speak, I still can't make sense of it.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Just think (again), if your child hung around someone who was teaching them bad habits (how to talk back to their parents, lie, cheat, steal, etc.) and you found out, would you allow your child to associate with such a person? Nope. So why do our spouses get to get away with it?
<hr></blockquote><p>To that I can only say(not being a parent myself), I would forbid them to go near the bad influence, and if they still did it I would punish them. and our spouses(This is my POV)we love, and because they are "adults" we have no right to punish them, yet how can we not? otherwise we would be doormats(Plan A) all the time. <p>There HAS to be a happy medium between "doormat" and "slave-driver", but when the spouse is in the "fog" they can't see anything past their own noses and their own "selfish" desires.<p>I want my W to see I have changed, but it's alittle hard over the phone when W is so "commited" to OM and really has no desire to talk to me, at least not in the sense of how we used to talk, full of love, now she seems so "cold" towards me, as if to say "why do you even waste your time talking to me?".<p>So the question is : Now what? I know, I know Time is the ANSWER. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

To clarify my choice to go to Plan B, see pg.46 of SAA. With seperation comes reality.<p>That is my hopes in going to plan B, and having "no contact".<p>I also understand it could push her away, it can't be any worse than anything else that has happened.<p>I can only HOPE she will "see" through the "fog" and want to start working on M, but I am(unfortunately) also prepared to move forward with my life, even (sob. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] ) if it HAS to be without her.

Small update : My W just called, said she wanted to "check up" on me(Said she had some nightmare about finding me dead in our apartment.) and she also said she misses me. I asked her if everything is ok, and she sobbed(Like she was crying) and said no, everything is fine. I told her I do love her, and she replied with " I know you do, I have never doubted that at all, but I cant change these feelings (for OM) I have".<p>She asked If I'll be home later, and wanted to know if she could call me, I told her if she would like she could. I told her I love her, and we said goodbye.<p>Would this be violating Plan B? or should I go to Plan A agin?<p>This is soo confusing. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

Yes. See little contact is all they need to get them going. Going where? Well no where really but it keeps them going there none the less. <p>Was that a mistype when you asked if everything was ok and she said No, everything is ok? Because that is how they talk. <p>You may not be ready for plan B yet. <p>L.

No mis-type there, that is what she said, and how she said it.<p>Should I take this as a "good" sign? or is it just a moment in time where the fog starts clearing and then comes back?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> You may not be ready for plan B yet. <hr></blockquote><p>So I should Plan A, even though I gave her the plan B letter?<p>She says she wants to be apart, yet when we are apart, she wants to know how I am, How, backwards is that?<p>Someone needs to write : Fogese for dummies, the resource guide for those who want to learn about the Fog.<p>I'll be around tonight, not much else to do, write at MB, and wait for the phone to ring.

Ok, there you have it babble babble babble. Do you understand this yet? Nope, because you are not meant to. <p>Do you get your hopes up? No, you just step back and watch the babble until it runs out. If it runs out of steam before you do then she can come back. If you run out of steam first, her chances are much slimmer or she will have to convince you major big time to reconsider. <p>So get T out of the that chair and go see a movie or rent one. I just bought Jurassic Park III and will be watching it tonight. Our son is a big dino fan!!! He used to want to be a paleontologist when he was 3 years old but now he wants to be pokemon trainer (sigh)..... <p>I heard from Faith1 that OceansEleven is good. How about that or Spy Games? Maybe Lord of the Rings? RH is suppose to have gone to see that
one. Haven't heard his review yet. <p>I am still stuck here at work...YUCK! <p>Have a good one. K? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>L.

Hey, someone calling my name ... I am at Metreon waiting for my 3:50 show, thanks to Sony I have access to MB ... how addictive. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]
Torizo, you are not ready for plan B yet and that was said by Orchid, me & rev probably. When WS is a W, it takes longer to get them back, don't dream to get her back next week or so. You have to work it slow. I will be back later to put out the review of Lord of the ring [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

T,<p>Sory man I've been chasing my backside trying to keep up with all the threads I got myself into. I'm going to try to cut back. I'm not even going to try at this point to give you any profound advice. You have put up about 4 pages I have to go back and read. I just wanted to say that RedHat and Orchid have you on the right path. I cought the last four posts before I put this up. I also have to say that as much as I appreciate him, RedHat needs a distraction. You think Sony will let him visit MB while he watches the movie too?<p>Thanks
Rev

Well then, in light of this all, I am going to see what is on pay per view, if nothing interesting, Blockbuster is up the street.lol.<p>I think I will take your advice, and it's back to plan A, um, my personal time limit for this will be, hmmm...... let's say valentine's day, then if the situation don't improve, or takes a turn for the worse, I'll go to plan B. Sound fair? I think it is. <p>I only hope W calls tonight to say something "positive". <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>If it runs out of steam before you do then she can come back. If you run out of steam first, her chances are much slimmer or she will have to convince you major big time to reconsider.
<hr></blockquote><p>Orchid, so you know, I have an amazing resolve and ability to "deal" with situations, I may get confused at times, but I assure you, she WILL run out of "steam" before me. I CAN guarantee that. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Redhat, I heard the movie is great, me and W were supossed to see it, we never did, maybe I will sometime.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> You think Sony will let him visit MB while he watches the movie too? <hr></blockquote>
Rev, yet another book idea, You know you are addicted to MB when...lol<p>One more thing on Plan A/B, SAA, says plan A is to convince WS to leave OM,and A. but what if WS, say they want OM instead of BS? Then is it still plan A, Or do you in fact go to plan B? considering where my WS is should I stay in plan A?<p>God Bless.<p>[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: Torizo ]</p>

Torizo,
You should see LordOfTheRing. Many people can not take the temptation of the Ring (A). The Journey is to destroy the Ring (A). There is a lot of fogese talk too, waffling in and out. And the best part of it you have to wait to see how the journey end (the death of A). A cliff hanger 'till next year.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>One more thing on Plan A/B, SAA, says plan A is to convince WS to leave OM,and A. but what if WS, say they want OM instead of BS? Then is it still plan A, Or do you in fact go to plan B? considering where my WS is should I stay in plan A?</strong><hr></blockquote>
You have to be in plan A for now, period. For you to move on plan B, your WW has to acknowledge your changes and has no issues your M no more. Even then you might want to wait until those changes become a habit. Plan B is the last resort and point of no return. Use it wisely.

Got it, back to plan A. <p>I will probably go see LOTR this week sometime.<p>Small update : W never did call me back last night [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] . I wonder why she said she would, and then doesn't? maybe I'll hear from her today, considering it's new year's eve and all, but...I won't hold my breath. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

Do you know, this post is 92pgs. in microsoft word? just thought I'd share that insight with you. lol<p>I just printed this out, so I can read it away from the computer.<p>Hoping to hear from company I interviewd with on saturday, they said either monday or wednesday, they'd call.(I hope I get this job.)<p>W still hasn't called [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] , but hey, she has mor "important" things in her life to worry about than me. (yes, it's a sarcastic comment, that's why I write it here, and not tell her, that would be LB big time.)<p>God Bless, and thank you once again(I know I can never say that enough) for helping with this, I only hope I can help someone like you have helped me. I do appreciate everything you all have done. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]