Morin' T,<p>Gratuitous (sp???) remarks always appreciated. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I wish you well on the outcome of your interview. <p>Boy if we could put our character references on applications the employers out there would see how strong most of us that post here are. That is what I look for in a candidate - endurance. Of course there are many other aspects to consider but endurance is an important quality. Definite must for a marriage. <p>T, your road to recovery (be it marital &/or personal) will strengthen you so that you will be able to help others. That has helped my personal recovery. Check out Rev, Indy, Husband2You, WAT, Stillhers and many others. These are just some of the guys out there who have helped many. The girls are even more - Zorweb, Cali, Bramble Rose, Cheryl, Lor, LostVA, Perservering, buffy, sing, resilient and many many more. <p>So join our helpers club and you will be rewarded in a small way. The saying 'there is more happiness in giving than there is in receiving' is true. <p>Take Care,
L. <p>Take care,

Good morning to you O, how are you today? I suppose you are right. Tis' better to have helped out than to just be a spectator. I have seen some of their posts, thaey are every bit as wonderful as you guys(and girls [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] are to me.<p>Still no Call from W, I think she wants to mess with my mind.<p>A quick question, in plan B acording to SAA it says: "After the letter is received, the betrayed spouse should avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has ended and the extraordinary measures to guarantee total separation from the lover are accepted by the wayward spouse." <p>What if the WS is unwilling to leave OP?<p>Does this almost guarentee D, or does it mean it will take longer for A to die a "natural" death?<p>Just Curious.<p>I hope your day is going well. Talk to you later. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: Torizo ]</p>

I was reading another post and it stirred up some thoughts, IF that is a big if at this point, IF my W ever ends her A, and ther is some (maybe very small by then) small chance to work it all out Whether Pre or Post D, What would be some good conditions to go by for her to return to our M or if D happens return to my life(maybe some potential, maybe not)? <p>I have a couple Ideas, In fact the whole agreement at the back of SAA, sounds like a good start, but other ideas are welcomed.<p>Even though the outlook is bleak right now, only time can tell where it will all end. (And unfortunately, Time is a Deaf & Mute Mime. lol [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] )

Hi T,
Plan B causes action. Either way to recovery or D. You need to be aware of that action and now you can handle either outcome. If you can not then you need to stay in plan A. <p>Cutting off contact is protecting the BS from further hurt. That applies in cases where the conduct of the WS is hurting the BS in word or deed. Cutting off contact also shows the WS that the BS no longer wishes to take any 'bs' from the WS. In a sense it let's them see what life is like without the BS. Pre-divorce syndrome? <p>Is it a big step to take? Yes. Once taken the BS should not waffle. The WS needs to show positive action before the BS jumps to a change. This is the hard part. Taking the WS at their word often leaves the BS vulnerable to further hurt and false starts. On the other hand a stern plan B can also push the WS the other way. In most cases it anything would have done that anyway. So the fear of plan B is mostly in the mind of the BS. Actual execution of it is not as scary as perceived. <p>Experiences do vary so caution is always advised. Some plan B plans do end in D. Relief to the BS if often received in plan B even with the D. A closure of sorts. <p>L.

O, I understand the risks associated with plan B, and yes it very well could lead to D, I want to work on M, but there is/was/is almost no chance to do or say anything to prove to W that change has occured / is occurring. She no longer calls me except yesterday, she has made it clear to me that OM has priority in her life, such as back on pg. 7 or 8 (I don't remember) I say how about spending an evening with me and her response was "I don't thing OM would like it too much". That is why this is so hard. Plan A = Doormat, self improvement, try to look "good" for WS, Plan B = Taste of "reality" Possibility for WS to stay or go permanently.<p>I have no reason to belive (From what little communication I have with W) that she has any intent to come back, I almost feel she wants it to end.<p>I know I am willing to do ANYTHING to get her back, But I have also come to accept the other reality, Life without her. <p>I just don't know what to do at this point, and if I am back to plan A, how do I explain it to her (free contact again ect.)<p>As well as our phone conversations are now starting to sound the same(the more I think about it)
Hi how are you?, ok, You? As well as can be expected. Whats new? nothing really. you? Got a couple interviews and whatever day. oh thats good to hear. and from ther it goes to me telling her how much I miss her, and love her and how "home" is always open to her ect ect. Then she always says "I know you love me I never have doubted that" and she says "my mind is made up I'm with OM now" I could change to any subject in the world and it all ends up in the same place. I tell her I love her, and all I get in return is "i Know you do".<p>And we hang up, I always have a feeling of emtiness after talking to her, the W that I married just doesn't "feel" "there" anymore, The aliens have abducted her. she is definately a victim of the "fog".<p>So what can I do to make/help her "see"? how do I get her to a point of giving "him" up?<p>I fam stasrting to feel as the days/weeks go by I am part of a losing battle, yet I still hold on to a glimmering ray of hope, that all is not lost.<p>It is the love I have for her, and even through this, is has not been tarnished. But as for her love towards me, it feels like it has been replaced, and I feel the only reason she called yesterday is for her own piece of mind, to know I am alive.<p>I don't know what to do, and any and all suggestions are welcome. I need "direction" now.<p>and I am thankful for all of you, without you and MB in general, I don't know where I'd be...<p>[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: Torizo ]</p>

I mailed this to my W, I couldn't get a hold of her by phone, I don't think I LBd anywhere in it, But If I did, there's nothing I can do now.<p>
I called where you are at a moment ago, no one answered. you all are probably out drinking and having fun. I hope you are. anyways, the reason I called was to wish you a Happy new year.<p>Also, I wanted you to know that "home" is always open to you, and whatever your decisions are I will support you through them. I just want you to know, I love you Christi, and I always will love you, You mean the world to me. and I feel you should know that.<p>It seems so long ago, when we first met, and I have been thinking alot lately, as well as trying to improve the quality of life for myself right now, I hope only that you will talk to me, I do care how you feel, and what you are thinking.<p>Just know, it has been an absolute honor to be with you these four years, and know that I'm here if you need someone to talk to, ok?<p>I love you with all my heart and soul Christi.
Have a good new year...<p>What do you think? Pathetic I know, but its how I feel, and all I can say without mentioning A, or OM. <p>Happy New Year To all...May we all find "peace" this year...

Well, happy new year oficially in EST. No call from W, Hurt and sad. Going to sleep now. Talk to you tomorrow / Later today.

Dear T,<p>I see and hear the love you have for your W. However, that does not mean you will become a doormat. Keep the respect for yourself. In a crazy foglike way, the more you lower yourself to their level the more they despise you. <p>So treat yourself with respect. Require her to do that also. This will show her that you will not lower your standards, you will then become more attractive to her. Whether she will come back based on that, time will tell but she will definitely see you as more attractive. <p>Think about it would you want a woman who constantly throws herself in front of you? Begs and pleads for your attention? Grovels at your feet? Initially it may be flattering, after a while it becomes annoying. To the WS we are annoying. Until we pull ourselves together and respect our own self-worth. <p>Please let me know what you think about this.<p>L.

Torizo,
You need to get busy !. You have too much idle time to wonder around about your WW. Letter is good but don't expect anything out of it. The hardest part for BS is wait ... waiting for A to die. Some A never die and you have to yank them with plan B. In any case, average A dies in 6 months after expose in day light. Do you think you could make it in 6 months ?.

O, I see your point, I am trying to respect myself, and I do. It's just hard sometimes, to keep going, and the hardest part is the waiting...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Think about it would you want a woman who constantly throws herself in front of you? Begs and pleads for your attention? Grovels at your feet? Initially it may be flattering, after a while it becomes annoying. To the WS we are annoying. Until we pull ourselves together and respect our own self-worth. <hr></blockquote><p>So I should Not ignore her, but not plead with her? so should I just not say anything about "home"? I would assume that she knows everthing I have to say to her, and in some backwards reality, there really nothing I can say at this point except to tell her I love her.<p>
rh, <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>You need to get busy !. You have too much idle time to wonder around about your WW. <hr></blockquote><p>You are right, but I have been trying like crazy this week to find a job, and been busy cleaning, but there is no enough things for me to do to fill all my idle time, that is why I live on here for right now.<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> In any case, average A dies in 6 months after expose in day light. Do you think you could make it in 6 months ?. <hr></blockquote><p>Do I get a choice? I know I want to still be with her, if she will give me the chance... We have ALOT of talking to do, and ALOT of actions must be done before she comes back, I am not willing to just tak her back, she must change, and be willing to make the changes. Then we can discuss the changes.<p>Waiting is definately the hardest part, for me at least, in all of this.<p>
I just feel, like she is never going to give him up... <p>Thank you for being here...

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Torizo:
<strong>
Do I get a choice? I know I want to still be with her, if she will give me the chance... We have ALOT of talking to do, and ALOT of actions must be done before she comes back, I am not willing to just tak her back, she must change, and be willing to make the changes. Then we can discuss the changes.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You make me smile, no you don't have a choice if you want your M and even could run as long as 2 yr. For recovery learn about 4 rules, those are 4 gifts of love. As long as she is willing to work on it, you should have her back. However I agree w/ you never take WS back with out commitment unless you want a problem.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>I just feel, like she is never going to give him up... </strong><hr></blockquote>
Did you see LordOfTheRing yet ?. You see that selfishness will consumed the ring bearer. It is very powerfull evil lure, when they are at it you better stay away from it. Let them have the will to take it off.<p>Hey, how about joging at lake front ?. There is a nice trail out there. Or how about ice fishing on the lake ?.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Or how about ice fishing on the lake ?. <hr></blockquote><p>It hasn't even started to freeze yet, still too warm in the lake. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I guess my problem is I'm impatient, I just want it to be over, Work on M or D, Just so there is some certainty.<p>I had read the whole Maritial Recovery Agreement, in the back of SAA, even typed it all out in the computer, and it seems like a good first step. But if she is unwilling to end the A by her choice, or unwilling to work on M, then the MRA has no value. <p>That is the uncertainty I wish wasn't there, I wish I could ask her, but the answer would be clouded by fog, and therefore wouldn't be valid.<p>She says she wants D, but ther is no hurry according to her, I still don't get that, she is totally contradicting herself in that statement, I just wish I knew her true intentions...<p>But now that we have almost no communication, I am no longer meeting any ENs, therefore, either OM meets them, or reality sets in, or worst possible case, she leaves me for him and then when D is final, she'll "wake up" and by then it could be too late for her.<p>I am alot like you, I'll hang in there, but I wont wait forever. Life will go on with or without her. I know is mean to say, but its the truth. I do love her, and I always will, but I can't wait forever...<p>Everyday that passes without her, it seems to get easier to deal with, But I'm afraid, I may be losing some love for her, because of what she has done, and is continuing to do. The love I have wont disappear completely, but it is slowly ebbing out.<p>It saddens me to think about this, it saddens me more that she just ignores me like I'm not here.<p>You all have shown me, how hard it is, and what to do, you have been here for me when I needed it the most. and for that I'm eternally greatful.
In the long run I know if nothing else, I will be a better person for this that I am doing, Even though I may lose the one I truly love in the process...<p>Thank You All...<p>God Bless.

Torizo,
How about "dare jumping" on the lake ?. Make sure you have your car heater on full blast before you leap in. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Yes, Torizo, no one should go through this but yet here we are. There is a limit and there is a time to move on. Let her go for now. Do not get bother or second guessing on what she does. Also in plan A is not about fullfilling WW's EN. So don't get edgy about meeting her EN's.<p>If she wakes up too late it is her loss and it is her choice not yours. You probably by then already have someone else and for sure you will protect it with MB.<p>Everyday that passes without her, it seems to get easier to deal with, But I'm afraid, I may be losing some love for her, because of what she has done, and is continuing to do. The love I have wont disappear completely, but it is slowly ebbing out.
Actually it is acceptance. About love, in MB term could be rebuild completely. If you do 4 rules and meet someone EN's completely you could make them fall in love w/ you. Look at the past generation where they have match marriage, what do they say about love ?. It grows w/ time. Exactly !!!. Even your "in love" feeling is gone, with MB you could rebuilt it. What MB can not do is when you start turn love to hate, that is the time you should go to plan B. Plan A is actually move the focus on you so that you do not dwell on WS.<p>In the long run I know if nothing else, I will be a better person for this that I am doing, Even though I may lose the one I truly love in the process...
You find your happiness when the time come, w/ or w/o W. Arm with MB knowledge, you could be an irresistable mate [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> You find your happiness when the time come, w/ or w/o W. Arm with MB knowledge, you could be an irresistable mate <hr></blockquote><p>Thanks, You know how to change my perspective on things. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] I know where I want to go in life, and how to get there, it will just be a shame if it is not her by my side.<p>But that is life, unpredictable.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>It grows w/ time. Exactly !!!. Even your "in love" feeling is gone, with MB you could rebuilt it. <hr></blockquote><p>But is the oppistie also true? In her case "out of sight out of mind"? I mean if love grows with time, does love fade with time?<p>I have read the four rules,Honesty,Time,Care,and Protection. But at the current point, they are just thoughts at the back of my mind, I only hope I get the "chance" to use them to save our M.<p>Anyways, I am going to go see LOTR at 2:45pm My time, I'll post my thoughts when I get home.<p>I wish it were all over, and life could go back to somewhat normal...

Torizo,
You are very good and critical, yes "out of sight out of mind", however "in love" as you know it is not only time but also EN(s) and commitment. Your W love is hanging on the memory in the past and hope she could see your changes. That is why you need to have open communication and we try to stop you from plan B'ng !!!. Send her a card, nice card and wrote poem to her, once a week.<p>Hope you don't weep at LoTR [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ... I did [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img]

WHAT AN AMAZING MOVIE!!!!!! That is the best fil I' have seen in a LONG time. Wow, The effects were awesome, the plot was wonderful, absolutely amazing...Yeah a couple scenes pulled the ol heartstrings, and along came the tears... [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>It does relat to A though, The ring does represent A, somewhat anyways... A power beyond human comprehension(the "rush" of emotions associated with A).<p>But one thing really sticks with me, it is something Gandalf said, and I cant remember the whole line"(something)...It's what we do with the time given to us. It really sticks with me. I think it holds true though, at least for me.<p>Back to reality, Should I tell her, "I've changed my mind" or just do it?... Should I call her, Or is it recommended to go by mail,email ect.?<p>I recommend the Lord of The Rings to everyone, EXCELLENT movie.<p>It felt weird to go see it alone, first movie I've been to in four years alone...

Torizo,<p>Wait a bit then call her tommorow. Plan up what are going to see ... hey LoTR is a good topic to talk to her. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I have to run to bring 2 D to their activity ... WW is still MIA.

thats the thing, what should I say? Other than the same stuff I have been saying this whole time?<p>"Theres only so many times you can Say I love/miss/are thinking of you, and there's only one way to say Home is always open to you". And it always ends the same, I know you love me, I never have doubted that, I miss you too, But I'm with OM now. She ALWAYS says the same things.<p>I think somewhere in the land of fog she honestly has told herself she wants to be with him and not me, I don't honestly know what she is thinking, but that is the way it feels...<p>I don't think she has seen LotR Yet...<p>I hope WW becomes un-MIA.<p>I'll be on later, as if I have anything else to do. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

I just talked to W on the phone, I told her happy new year, and she said you too. I told her about LotR, and explained its plot,(no spoilers though), she asked Who did I go with?, I told her myself(Which Is true), she said wow, you went out to see a movie, how come you never take me but you will go yourself? (understand the last movie we saw together was Star wars Ep.1) I know I know, I neglected to take her to enough movies. Anyways, She asked how come you went by yourself(Duh...gee I wonder) I told her because I had no one to go with, and out of the blue, I asked her if she would like to go see LotR with me, her response: I'll have to see,(What are we afraid OM won't let you??? Hahaha, thats a good one) I'll have to see, that's rich, (What, warden won't let you out?) (you made your bed now sleep in it) I know it's mean, but it's how I feel.after that she said she had to "go",(Some 'bs' line, when I know damn well OM is "right" there) The whole conversation up to this point has felt "cold" towards me...I tell he ok, and that If she needs someone to talk to, I'm always here(Reaffirmation of something she knows), she said I know, I told her I love her, Response was different this time, she said I know. (that's it I know?) Then I told Her I miss her(Here it is: she said I miss you too,Haha Jackpot, Reality is starting to slowly creep in, I think...) She actually sounded like she meant it. So I told her I love her once more and we said Goodbye.<p>Somewhere in all of this, I asked if she was still reading HNHN, she said she had finished Chap. 1,(Thats some progress). <p>Oh and the other "warm" moment in this conversation was when she said Wow you actually went to a movie? She seemed, shocked and I think somewhat delighted(I may be reading too much into it though).<p>The "spark" is there, If only I can bring it forward, and kindle it into a flame...<p>[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]</p>

Hi Toziro,<p>Thanks so much for your post to the other day. I really was in a very low spot. I really admire your dedication. It gets so hard and difficult sometimes. I am living with my H and I feel like I am going to die sometimes of the pain. Yet you can remain optimistic. I really hope that your "spark" ignites for you. <p>Thanks again for the encouragement.<p>Perdu