P,<p>When I looked at the EN site - I did not know where to start. And some of the topics seems harsh or abrasive. I made it to this site because I was searching the type of converations - whether it would be helfpul an focused or not.<p>I am open to suggestions. Thanks for your comments - I can see how this interaction can help as just reading many of the postings I see the LB's that I can easily commit. <p>W did not call at all while gone - she left a message at work once she was home - the message had nothing to do with where she was or what she was doing but only regarding Christmas gifts and stockings - who buys what, etc. <p>I am seeing a counselor tonight and then going to a movie - as I have been avoiding returning home or talking with her so as not to vent or make accusations which I am prone to do and which does not move anything forward as she will not admit to anything nor explain anything.<p>I am trying to decipher all the acronyms - kind of using my book to interpret. Is D-Day discovery day or divorce day?

~ Luc<p>[ December 20, 2001: Message edited by: Luc ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Luc:
<strong>I am trying to decipher all the acronyms - kind of using my book to interpret. Is D-Day discovery day or divorce day?
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Luc, see the link on acronym below. D-day is discovery day, Dv is divorce.

Hi Luc,<p>I think Redhat has provided a link to the acronyms page. Use them if you like, or don't. Yes, I've hit the wrong buttons a few times too. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to copy your post on my thread over to here. I'll paste it below. This way, people can read your background info. <p>You might want to change the title of this thread too. You can do that by going up to your first post here, click on the "delete/edit" icon on the top, then typing in a new title on the title line. Then punch the "edit reply" button below. Maybe a title like "Separate Lives, What Do I Do?" Or something appropriate that you would like help with.<p>Here is the info from your well-written, but buried post, for others to read up.<p>Persistent,<p>Thanks for sharing all of this. This is actually my first posting. I have been searching the different sites and reading the different postings - testing the water so to speak to see where it feels safe to step in. <p>Your comments, besides hitting way too close to home, come from a sincere spirit that seems to be overcoming all temptation to anger or bitterness and to be determined to work relentlessly towards one end: reconciliation.<p>A friend referred me to Surviving An Affair and this website. I read the book, am currently exisiting in a perpetual Plan A, but hesitant to proceed to plan B due to not wanting to disrupt the children's lives any more than it is. We live separate within the same house since May.<p>Tonight I am at the computer reading your comments (which have been very helpful) because I can't sleep as my W is gone with a friend (who she keeps secret but insists is a girlfriend) to shop, go downtown, feel free to drink, and planning to stay at her friends over night. I'll have to go in late to work in the morning in order to help get the children ready and off to school. And just feel physically sick, so decided to visit this website.<p>For her to have an OM seems so unreal to me. We have been married for 11 years - our first few years in full time Christian ministry. We were extrememly close for the first 7 years and then went through a series of moves and shifts in careers. My life was more like your wife's OM for those 7-8 years in terms of my FC, but have gone to more like your's in the last two years. <p>Over the last two years she has had a series of severe health challenges yet every test was negative. In April, her doctors confided their belief that her problems were mental - severe depression. She then attributed that to me and combined with a trip she took with Friends to San Diego where all her symptoms were gone and she had fun for the first time in a long time - she decided the key to her health was separation.<p>Then her dad died who she had a tumultous relationship with and she then dissapeared (again to California) for two weeks after that.<p>Since then, she has found a job at a sports club where she works till early mornings, cut all ties to our church and church friends, cut all real relationship with me, and has developed a new group of "girl" friends that she keeps completely secret, and a very different lifestyle that contradicts the values she has had since we met. <p>We live separatly in the same house sharing home duties and the children, but she pretty much comes and goes as she pleases. (She wants to move out with just our daughter but knows I am strongly against that). Once she made her decision in May - she has had no interest in seeking counseling or working on our marriage in any way. I have sought counseling and tried to identify all the LB's that I have committed and seek to change. For most days, I find solace in living a Plan A approach and trusting God to work in her life. But on nights like tonight I crash and find myself being very short with the children and struggling with a desire to just end the personal pain and rejection.<p>I'm not sure I wrote what I meant to write or tied this more into what you wrote or the others who responded to you. There were many points in your story that I related to. <p>I am very vulnerable right now in my EN - and working hard to keep within a men's groups - but my time outside of work is almost 100% with the children so that helps as she is mostly always gone when I am home due to her continual need to shop, visit friends in the evening, and work.<p>I feel like I went on too long. This is my first attempt to post on this site or really any site.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Luc:
<strong>W did not call at all while gone - she left a message at work once she was home - the message had nothing to do with where she was or what she was doing but only regarding Christmas gifts and stockings - who buys what, etc.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well, I'm glad she is home. Did you call her and tell her that you're glad she's made it home safely? Let her know you care about her? I know this can be hard, especially how inconsiderate she is being.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Luc:
<strong>I am seeing a counselor tonight and then going to a movie - as I have been avoiding returning home or talking with her so as not to vent or make accusations which I am prone to do and which does not move anything forward as she will not admit to anything nor explain anything.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Ok, prepare yourself. Get away for a bit. Your "vent" or "accusations" would probably fit into one of the love buster (LB) categories. Not good. And realize now that she's probably not going to "admit or explain anything" anyway.<p>Luc,<p>Your situation is little different than mine. Your wife seems to be really out there in just doing her own thing. My wife, on the other hand, appeared to be just being a Mom to daughter, and roommate to me. She was around the house all of the time. Her getaways were done in secrecy, when daughter and I were not home. Early on, I didn't think there was an affair, just withdrawal. I'm not sure that knowledge of the affair at the time would have changed my Plan, or what I began working on.<p>My first session with MB, Jenn got me to look at the relationship, and take responsibility for my part in the demise. I obviously didn't meet wife's EN's, and I LB'd when she didn't meet mine. At this point, she had been through four months of conventional counseling, and I through seven months of it, and we were moving forward in mediation (but living in the same house - different floors). I hoped the marriage could be saved, wife wanted divorce, but Jenn convinced me it was worth a try, but with a different (Marriage Builders) approach.<p>First step was to admit to my wife that I was responsible for the state of the marriage. I had not met her needs, and I had love busted, and that pushed us apart. I told her about the counseling help I was receiving. I pledged to the perfect husband to her and father to my daughter. I asked her for some time to delay the mediation. I told her that she wouldn't be required to participate in this, this was about changing "me", but that it would be helpful if she could just give the counselor some feedback on things I do right and wrong. Note that she did this for about three sessions, then I think Jenn tried to work with her a bit too much and she dropped out for the next 10 months or so.<p>So that's where I started. Jenn gave me a lot of "coaching" in my Plan A. In the beginning, a lot of my Plan A felt really weird. But eventually, the actions become habits. I still try to focus on working on specific things (such as my wife's admiration need, which filling just isn't quite there yet).<p>So my first step was a commitment to my wife. Followed up with a Plan A. She did help by filling out the emotional needs (EN) questionnaire early on, but I can tell you (by what I know now), her answers were misguided because of the affair. If she doesn't do the EN questionnaire for you, you can work around this. It's just a bit more difficult.<p>Yes, this limbo of separate lives but living in the same house really is horrible. Likely a new commitment to Plan A, letting her in on your hopes and desires and commitment to achieve, and then laying the groundwork for recovery by following your Plan A. If that doesn't work out, then you will need to go to Plan B, and likely your love bank will tell you the same thing then. I think there is a place for Plan B even with children.

Luc-<p>Just checking in. Can't stay long. I was wondering that, after reading the material on this site, if you feel like you are getting the kind of marriage counseling that you want? Or is it intended as counseling for yourself? My W and I started counseling separating about 6 weeks after D-day. Our counselors did not do much for either of us and when it was clear that my W was ready to give up any outside intervention, I found this site and contacted Steve Harley for an appointment. My W has not exactly bought into all of the MB concepts and sometimes she thinks that Steve and I are in colusion(?) together. I say, "To do what? Save our marriage?" Ok, I don't tell her this or it would be an LB. But I have some hope that she is working with me because she still talks with Steve and sometimes, follows through on his suggestions.<p>I want to make sure that you are getting the kind of support and help you need at home. You didn't mention any other family support or friends. Most of our friends and none of the family know of the A and I'd prefer it this way--for a little while longer. This is really my situation so MB has become a necessary part of my life--otherwise, I'd probably be venting at home--and that ain't good.<p>I admire your desire to work things out. It doesn't sound like you've exhausted all possibilities yet and that you are not completely drained. I needed professional help to help me understand if I was making the right changes in me, for me, and for my W. I needed someone that was going to do more than just give me a shoulder to cry on and let me vent. I think that in the end, if my W decides that she no longer wants to be married to me, then I'll be satisfied I've done all I can. This isn't as easy to say as it might seem so don't get the wrong impression.<p>Can you get some help with the children so that you get some time for your own health? I don't really get that opportunity yet. I hope you do.<p>I'm glad to read that you are finding some satisfaction in your Plan A efforts but remember, it won't necessarily be effective unless you know what your W's needs are and what causes love bank withdrawls in her heart. There is a book written by Susan Page that some posters on this site have recommended that might be good to pick up. The title is something like "How one can bring two together" or something close to that. Anyway, it apparently discusses how one person in a marriage (Luc) can work to marriage recovery, even if the spouse seems reluctant.<p>Good luck and keep asking questions and lending support if you can. Sometimes it helps us sort things out by helping others.<p>HoFS
ps. As p- did, I would also recommend that you post to another one of the forums, GQII perhaps, if you want more feedback. I hope some of what I said helps.

Hi Luc,<p>It seems we are crashing your thread, now, hope you don't mind???<p>P wrote: Cerri, I was hoping your feelings were starting to change. Hmmm, I don’t like this. So you
have a love bank, but the account is empty?
------------------------------------------------<p> Most days I feel like I just slept with a stranger.<p> But you DID sleep with a stranger. Remember your first date with H? Sorry, I couldn’t
resist!<p>
Hmmmmmmm. Empty? Yes I suppose it is. After being so long and so far in the red, that's actually an improvement. It's just that the total lack of feeling is sooooooo odd. I'm hoping time on vacation will help [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>
Ha ha. Very funny. We did spend a whole 9 days getting to know each other via email and phone [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] <p>
P wrote: See that’s why you get the coach status. I should have expected someone who spends so
much time in a library, to be sufficient in use of the reference section. And, of course, I
have HN/HN in my library!
<p>I have a nearly photograhic memory. I frightens the people I live with [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>
p wrote: hen, I think realizing she was talking about a “personal” subject
(off-limits, you know), then quickly stopped talking. I told her how much I appreciated her
comments, and sharing that with me. <p>Nice work!!!! Ahh the cracks in the withdrawal are starting to appear !!!!<p>
P wrote: Unfortunately, lots of my reaction to my wife’s work stuff early on was the
“battling” that Cerri listed. At some point though, I began accommodating her excess
hours. I chose to not stay home and stew about her being late, but instead spend time
doing fun stuff with daughter. I actually supported my wife working late.<p>Oh, P. If you could have seen some of the nasty temper tantrums I've had....... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>One of the greatest benefits of this place is seeing mine own behavior in others (HT that's you!!!) and finally recognizing how destructive it is.<p>In my 1st M, H was a workaholic. Very much like Hoffs wife. Couldn't plan anything because a customer might need something. Well, you can see where that led........<p>I also did the battling, and then the getting on with life, and then the withdrawal and then the affair and then the divorce........<p>I wish I had known then what I know now, sigh.<p>Hoffs wrote: Unfortunately, lots of my reaction to my wife’s work stuff early on was the
“battling” that Cerri listed. At some point though, I began accommodating her excess
hours. I chose to not stay home and stew about her being late, but instead spend time
doing fun stuff with daughter. I actually supported my wife working late.<p>Excuse me Hoffs but DUH!!! Of course she wants to go with the flow. It makes her happy and fulfilled, why would she want to change??? <p>Unfortunately she is gaining at your expense, the expense of your family and ultimately your marriage. I still think the need to be honest about your feelings is valid. That does NOT mean demanding that she DO anything. Just the facts about how you feel and probably about how you believe it is adversely affecting your family.<p>Come on. Christmas and New Years????? Ok, that I would call an addiction. Even H#1 didn't work those days.<p>I wonder if in your next session you would want to ask about how long you let this go on before you go to plan B?<p>hoffs wrote: W is
missing out on a lot of activities BUT she complained the other day that I'm scheduling
activities that she can't participate in (because of work) on purpose. How can I help it if
she is working all of the time? It's not like we are going to the movies or rent a video and
have pizza at 8:00 am. I think she is telling me that she wants to do stuff as a family and
that she doesn't want me to schedule stuff that she can't participate in.<p>Hmmmmmmm. That is a tough one. Scheduling w/out her enthusiastic agreement is against POJA. (Yes, I know that her lifestyle is very NOT POJA, but you are supposed to be modelling it)......ask Steve what he thinks. <p>I have not done many many things with kids and with friends because H wasn't enthusiastic. Even when he continued to do things I HATED. I guess for me it was a personal ethics issue. I couldn't violate a philosophy I believed in so strongly. You need to define for yourself where you stand on that issue [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Cerri

HT wrote: Hey, Cerri! Are you still on computer #10?? <p>Hey no!!!! I went to Minnesota yesterday to work on my TAN!!! LOL and went to the library there........<p>Cerri at her next meeting, " Hi I'm Cerri and I'm a library addict......."<p>p wrote: PS. Want to be unpopular. Don't know if any of you read Wilham2's post on the sex chair
he ordered for himself for Christmas. He said something like his wife being "apprehensive,
but I know eventually she will like it". Cerri, you would be proud, I said sounded like no
POJA decision, and that he should talk to her, and if not enthusiastic, to cancel the order.
I'm starting to get into this POJA stuff! Of course, my post has been ignored. More fun
talking about the new play toy, than the downer that wife may not want it.<p>LOL P. NO!!!! You didn't actually give REAL MB advice on a SEX thread????? [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>
Hey, Luc thanks for the hospitality. You're a great host.

Hey all, this week is getting really crazy with trying to get everything done before we leave Fri. morning. So this might be the last time you see me this year!!!! (HT, TRY to stay out of trouble [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] ) I'm hopeful that I can pop in tomorrow, but if not I wanted to leave this message for ya'll.<p>
A blessed holiday to you my dear MB friends. You have been my lifeline over these past months. Your stories and advice have helped me tremendously to see the things I should be grateful for in my own life. And also to recognize how my behavior has been harmful. <p>Your humor has pulled me through soooo many days when the only smilies I could use were these [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>HT, Give your wife the gift of protection this year. This is the first holiday season in 4 years that I haven't been suicidal because of H's anger and demands. Please, don't do that to yourself. When you hurt her, you ultimately are the one who suffers.
You have come so far since we first met last fall. Keep up the great work. And remember WALK AWAY, before you get too steamed up [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
Thanks good friend, for all your care and concern.<p>P, Most of all I wish you a holiday of peace and harmony. I hope that with things in the open you can begin to feel the healing that is happening.
HAPPY HAPPY BIRTHDAY on the 29th. I'll be thinking of you. You have been and continue to be an inspiration to strive to be the kind of person I can be proud of. Dear friend, many blessings to you and your family.<p>Hoffs, JL and Thilo, I admire your dedication to doing what it takes to heal your marriages. I hope your wives will come to see that it is truly in their best interests to put forth the effort and hard work as well. Blessings friends!<p>Luc and Espoir, Welcome. I hope to be a small part of the growth and learing you will experience here with the help of people like P and HT, Hoffs, Thilos and JL.<p>Since ancient times humans have celebrated this time of year when the darkness once again gives way to the returning light of the sun. In earliest times they thanked the Great Goddess for the gift of returning light. <p>At Christmas much of the world celebrates the gift the Virgin gives us at the birth of the Child in the Manger. His message is love, peace, harmony.<p>Take time this week to notice the tiny babies that cross your paths, in the grocery, at the mall or at church. See the trust, the total ability to live in the moment. Those infants too carry that same message of love and peace. They are our reminder of that babe born so long ago. <p>Relax and enjoy those moments that sneak up on you. The story time with a child. A quiet moment with your spouse. Everything may not be perfect, nor will it ever be. It is exactly what you need, right now, to learn what you need to learn. Treasure the moment.<p>
A very blessed Yule to you all my friends!!!!
Love, light, hugs and more hugs.....<p>Cerri off to sunny beaches and lots of tequila [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Hey!!!<p>Don't forget me when Im gone [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ December 19, 2001: Message edited by: cerri ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by cerri:
<strong>Hey!!!<p>Don't forget me when Im gone [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p></strong><hr></blockquote><p>Cerri who?<p>Just kidding. Have a great trip. I assume there won't be any TV to get in the way of fun? You are leaving the robe home, aren't you? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>HoFS

Cerri,<p>When I said let's load up and go to Luc's thread, I didn't mean to clean out the apartment and bring it with us! HoFS got it - my expectation was that we would chat with Luc for a while. Now we're just takin' up space at his place! Ok HT, bring on the blond jokes. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Hey, after that signoff, I won't even try to top you. I do sincerely want to tell each of you how much I value our friendship, how much help you have given me, and how wonderful it is to have someone to talk to about this (other than my 20 minutes per week with Jenn). It has been a Godsend.<p>I'm outta here tomorrow at noon too. Finished with work through till Jan 2. I'll probably check in occassionally from my home computer, after wife goes to bed. Probably about the same time HT will be getting SF, because we KNOW he's gonna earn it by following his Plan A and no LB'ers! Right HT! Oops, where's HT? Apparently we left the other thread without him?<p>Luc, a comment on HoFS post to you. I got bad marriage counseling for seven months, and wife for four months during the same period. Or at least I thought it was bad. (This person had all the awards, and was highly regarded too.) I can tell you that counselor sent me 20 different directions trying to find the answer to our marriage woes. All the time, the counselor knew wife was having an affair, and didn't even recommend to her that she tell me. If you want to stay with your counselor, read up on MB, and discuss it with your counselor. Ask him/her if she feels that love can be restored in a marriage. I dropped the old counselor the day after she told me AGAIN, that she couldn't help me with love, and wife doesn't love me so I should quit. Swapping that counselor out for a MB coach was the best decision I have made in years!

Luc,<p>Are you there? HoFS and I were wondering whether maybe Cerri stacked some furniture on you or something. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Hey, let us know how you're doing.

I'm still here! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
It's fine that everyone's topics followed over here as I never meant to create a new topic to begin with. I'll have to take time to read all the emails posted later tonight.<p>Yesterday caught me by surprise. Monday night I spent 2 hours with my MC (more on that later in respect to MB). There was a good summary we concluded on - but when I left I had been shaking from emotions most of the day so instead of going home I went to a late movie - which was good then took a early AM walk and then went home.<p>I think my actions caught W by surprise and the next day she called me at work several times to leave messages (that is how she has chosen that we communicate) and wondered if I had gone on meds since I had seemed so calm about everything. <p>Then she called from another number and laughed when I picked up that she had fooled me - we had been given a christmas gift to have dinner together - that might have scared her - but instead she suprised me at work with the children and went to one of their favorite places to go for dinner and games - with the christmas gift from a friend. But it was still the first time that we had all gone anywhere together in some time and that was appreciated by my older son.<p>She also then changed her plans of leaving for her family the day after christmas with the kids (through new years) and decided we could all go if I was willing to drop her off at her grammas for part of that time. Then she also told me her friend who she spends most weekends with (she claims is a girlfriend but keeps secretive/private) - is moving out of the area over the holidays. So - a very interesting sequence of events. <p>My friend D. who introduced me to SAA - he thinks that is a good indicator of what happens when I really commit to no LB's. Not that anything changed in our relationship - but that definitely was positive and encouraged my son who is struggling with how separate things have become and not wanting to go on any trip with a solo parent.<p>~ Just a quick update.<p>Thanks for the postings <p>~ Luc

Luc,<p>That certainly sounds like a nice turn of events! Ok, so if she's a bit intrigued, this holiday trip will be the real time to pull together your first effort at controlling the love busters (LB's). I mean, you see how hard we come down on HT about this. We can be brutal! But even bad as that sounds, remember that your wife's negative reaction "inside" is even more brutal.<p>Try to keep it on an even keel over the holidays. Recognize that there is much more stress now because of the holidays. If you feel a need to LB, excuse yourself and think it over some. Take a few breaths, calm down, and think of your overall Plan A goal.<p>Would like to hear how you're going to tie together the conventional counseling and MB principles.

Hu, LUC! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] HT here! Persistant and Cerri have mentioned me here in your post, and I just wanted to tell you that whatever they said about me is NOT TRUE!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I just wanted to welcome you to "Helga's House of Pain"! LOL!<p>Seriously though, if you want to know what MOT to do, please feel free to drop in on any of my threads! I'm the KING of LB's! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Hu, LUC! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] HT here! <p>Persistant and Cerri have mentioned me here on your post, and I just wanted to tell you that whatever they said about me is NOT TRUE!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]
Sorry to hijack your post!<p>I just wanted to welcome you to JFO, or otherwise known as "Helga's House of Pain"! LOL! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Seriously though, if you want to know what NOT to do, please feel free to drop in on any of my threads on the EN forum! I'm the KING of LB's! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I was wondering what had happened to Cerri, cause I hadn't heard from her lately. Well, now I know! She's having a sexfest down in the tropics with her H! Thanks, Cerri! Just rub it in me and P's face!! LOL! <p>You all take care, and God Bless us everyone! <p>HT <p>P.S. Went to a counseling session with our Pastor tonight, and I was blasted by Pastor for "Controlling" my W! Well, I think the concensus is now unanimous! I'm an A**hole! I have always been an A** hole, and probably always will be! W didn't have anything (at all) to say! Didn't stand up for me at all! [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] I didn't LB though! This makes 3 days in a row! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I'm down in the dumps tonight, feeling sorry for myself! I hope I can put on a new face tomorrow! Please pray for me! Thanks!

Thanks P and HT and Cerri - and I probably missed someone.<p>P, you asked about my MC and how that fits in with MB. Well, I am still absorbing and learning about MB. MC is aware of Harley but has not read SAA. MC is committed to the marriage. Apparantly MC initiated own D ten years ago when all seemed too hopeless and has regretted her decision to walk away ever since, but has grown from that and is committed to me working on self - especially since W is not willing to seek counsel - so MC can not work on marriage but only on me. <p>MC believes since W wants divorce - I have to accept her choice. However since W has only talked and not acted - there is still room to change. MC strongly supports a Matthew 18 approach - we have discussed the plan B and plan A - though I can see the benefits of working with an MC who understands that process and has walked through this process. <p>Merry Christmas to those I've just met - seems like everyone is heading off for Christmas. Will keep you in prayer HT. and do so for me. thanks.<p>~ Luc

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by HurtTired:
<strong>Went to a counseling session with our Pastor tonight, and I was blasted by Pastor for "Controlling" my W! </strong><hr></blockquote><p>HT, did you expect any OTHER comment from your Pastor. Your wife probably replayed the "no you're not going to separate counseling if I don't say so" instance to him. Don't dwell on that LB. It happened, it's over, and it's been what, three days with no LB now. Hey, you're on a roll.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Luc:
<strong>MC is committed to the marriage. Apparantly MC initiated own D ten years ago when all seemed too hopeless and has regretted her decision to walk away ever since, but has grown from that and is committed to me working on self - especially since W is not willing to seek counsel - so MC can not work on marriage but only on me. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>How many people have you heard from that said "I really just wished I had worked on my first marriage, rather than leave it so quickly?" A lot, right? I think people realize they've fallen out of (feeling of) love, so then it's not "meant to be, or wasn't their true love." Then they move on, fall in love again, then it fades again. It's probably easy for your MC to see that now; impossible for your (and mine) wife.<p>The stuff you said about working on self is consistent with MB. Even if the two of you were getting counseling at the same time, almost all of the effort would each be you working on yourselves. Don't get discouraged, you can pull things out with only yourself doing counseling.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Luc:
<strong>MC believes since W wants divorce - I have to accept her choice. However since W has only talked and not acted - there is still room to change. MC strongly supports a Matthew 18 approach - we have discussed the plan B and plan A - though I can see the benefits of working with an MC who understands that process and has walked through this process. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hmmm, maybe it's semantics, but you don't have to accept her choice. If your state is like mine, you can't stop her from divorce. Again, we were at the stage of first mediator appointment a week away when I gave MB a call, then told wife I wouldn't agree on divorce. All of the property issues and child custody and support issues had been settled already too. My wife wouldn't act if she thought she was going to have to fight me about D. But she also absolutely wouldn't work on the marriage at that point either, just choosing to do her own thing, and wait me out. Don't get discouraged. If your wife files for divorce, there will be things you probably want to do to protect yourself, but can do them and not blow your Plan A.

Hi, Luc! HT here. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Luc Wrote:
MC believes since W wants divorce - I have to accept her choice. However since W has only talked and not acted - there is still room to change. MC strongly supports a Matthew 18 approach - we have discussed the plan B and plan A - though I can see the benefits of working with an MC who understands that process and has walked through this process.<p>Ok, a couple of thoughts here........<p>If I had a dollar every time my W told me she was going to Divorce me, I'd (at least) be able to buy a great steak dinner to include enough drinks to get drunk! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>And, I don't doubt that your WS is thinking about divorce. However, thinking about it, and DOING it are two VERY different things!<p>She is in a deep "FOG"! I think that P is right to state that if she (Ultimately) wants a Divorce, there is nothing you can do! But, in the meantime, do work hard on yourself! Try not to loose too much self-esteem. Say good things to yourself and your W about the good things that exist in you and her. In other words, "Daily Affirmations" for yourself, and cmpliments for your W. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Realize the fact that she is in pain, too! It's a different kind of pain, but she is still in pain! [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] You have to validate her feelings, and at the same time, show her that you love her very much! How do you show her love? By GIVING it to her unconditionally! This is a hard concept to swallow, but it is necessary for her to come out of the "Fog" and finally SEE what she may be giving up! <p>Read the article that I posted on "Infatuation" on P's thread. I think it will help you understand how your WS feels. I know how difficult it is for you right now! But, it's even harder to try and understand how your W could do this to you! I'm sure you have a lot of anger, resentment, and hurt! I know I do! Try NOT to allow these emotions control your behaviors! This would be BAD news! <p>Instead, try understanding how your W feels. Be supportive of her, and let her know that you are very interested in her happiness. <p>Understand that what she is experiencing (right now) is a very POWERFUL ADDICTIVE DRUG, and she's hooked on it! That drug is the OM! And, it literally exists! Again, read the article I posted on P's thread! I know you'll find it very interesting. <p>Don't loose hope, and DON'T LB!! I'll keep you in my prayers! <p>God Bless!<p>HT