Hi,<p>I am so glad I found this site. I just wish i had found it sooner. I am so lost and confused. I don't know where to begin or how much information to divulge. My H first told me about his affair in April 2000. He had spent some time in another country 7 years ago doing research. The project lasted for six months. I had just landed my first job out of grad school so I was unable to go with him. During this time he had met another woman and claimed he fell in love with her. <p>I foolishly never took it very seriously. I figured he was very infatuated and would get over it. Little did I know that he had maintained contact with her through the mail. She set him little trinkets and such. <p>Two years later he went back do do more research. I had at this time I suspected that he may have slept with her. I went crazy but also remained in denial. We went through a very difficult time. He assured me that I was the one he loved and wanted to spend the rest of his life with. I was so far in denial that I would say you didn't really sleep with her did you. He would say no. That was enough for me. I honestly don't know what I was thinking. I guess I was too afraid to examin it any more. <p>Two years later he went back for a week long international conference. He was to be a presenter. Then in April of 2000. He had a breakdown. He had made plans to go to the same conference but extend his time by another week. I was upset but ever the understanding wife I knew he loved this country. He on the other hand could not take the pressure. He was going to see his lover. He had remained in contact with her through email and messengering etc.<p>This time I couldn't be in denial. He cut his trip short and went only for the conference. He came back to me and we agreed to go to counseling. That was a nightmare we had difficulties trieing to find an appropriate counselor. The 1st one we went to claimed that he had counseled a person who was very happily married but never found out what he was missing until he had an affair. He actually encouraged us to divorce. The funny thing was that pissed my H off and he wanted to try harder. Unfortunately, our counselor had a family memeber who was terminally ill so we only saw her once a month for 8 months and H gave up <p>A year and some months later we are still struggling. My H is tired and wants out. I have done so much soul searching. I realized I was never there for my H. I gave his physical support, but I never gave him emotional support. We never had the skills to communicate our needs to each other. I know my H loves me. I see it in his eyes and his deeds. He just can't seem to let her go. He has not seen her for 1 yr and a 1/2. He has been emailing her for some months now. <p>He cries all the time and says I just can't seem to do what I need to do to make this marriage work. I realize that I have been in such a rage and self rightious state of mind that I did not allow myself to see his pain. I was too insecure and I only saw my own pain and was waiting for him to fix it. I realize that I was living most of our marriage like this. I understand now why an affair might be started if a spouses needs aren't being met. I discovered what it really means to love someone and I am so afraid I am too late. I just wish I had discovered this site a year ago. <p>I know I rambled on and on. I left so much out.
I have been in counseling for myself for 1 year. H and I stopped in August 2001. He didn't see the point anymore.

Perdu,<p>Are we talking chickens or the Univ. with the user name? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>If your H is tired of it and has no faith in counselors, then I have a question. Will he read?? Because if he will read there is a book that will take him a couple of days to read that just might change his perspective. It is call Surviving an Affair by Harley. They have other books out, but I think that one will open his eyes and your eyes about affair, how they happen and how to survive them.<p>The survival point is for both the Wayward spouse (WS) and the Betrayed Spouse (BS). Get it read it and give it to your H. Then sit down and really talk to one another.<p>He is still in withdrawal from the OW but any contact simply starts the clock over. It is very much like a drug addiction and indeed the brain responses to contacting her are addictive.<p>He needs no contact from her, but that won't happen until he understands what has happened, and how to fix it. This approach sounds simplistic but it is seductively simple. It is founded on sound principles.<p>So get the book, read it, and then give it to H to read. I think you already have the jist of this approach. You must address your contributions to the marriage before the A, and he gets full responsibility for the A.<p>In any event, read, post, ask questions.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Hi JustLearning,<p>Neither chickens nor Univer rather LOST in French(at least I think so). Been a long time since I've studied it. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Thanks for the reply. I need all of the support I can get. I do know all of the principles. I left for the week to visit with relatives to give myself a break and startfresh. I also left him with a book "Infidelity: A Survival Guide" by Don-David Lusterman. Same premise not as detailed in the actual work/skill building. I just hope he reads it. If I have realized one thing I can not make him. <p>I have to say I often get confused with co-dependency and hope. I believe so strongly in our love but man am I co-dependent. I never know when enough is enough. All I know that I have not been living very consciously for avery long time. I know deep in my soul if I do not try everything in my power to save this marriage I will forever regret it. I just am so afraid of losing myself in the process.

<p>[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: MMMMM ]</p>

Hi Again,
I am not sure how to post here. Do I continue on the same ?thread??<p>Well tonight I go home. I took a week to regroup. I am so scared. I just hope I can stick to Plan A. I know that I work so hard at trying to "fix" him,that I end up shaming him. That becomes a major LB. He has told me he has alreaaddy made up his mind. He wants to end it. But I hear the Pain and fear in his voice. Why do I have such a difficult time remembering that he is in pain too? I get so self involved. I sometimes want to shake him and make him "see the light" I am worried that one of these days he is going to really believe it has gone too far. <p>I just don't know how to keep the faith. Help!! [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

Dear Perdu,<p>First and foremost if you try the Harley approach you won't lose yourself. You will find yourself. That is what Plan A is about. It's primary tennant is NO Love Busters, but the rest is introspection and working on yourself. This will help you with this marriage or any future relationship.<p>One MAJOR love buster is trying to educate your H. It doesn't work and that is why says to focus on yourself. Most of this will take time. I still think that Surviving an Affair might give your H the best perspective on how all of this works. It is really pretty fundamental and doesn't require any magic spells or incantatons. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>So continue with the Plan A, don't worry it won't hurt you and eventually you will see the correct way to go.<p>Now the only left to decide is shall we call you LC for short?? Lost Chicken [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Oh! Most people post on the same thread until subject, or length change. Also if the thread gets too long sometimes it is better to start a new one.<p>hang in there Perdu.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Hi again,<p>Thanks Just learning I really like my nickname. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Brief update
Things have been going realy well. H picked me up from the airport all smiles and hugs. We went home, had a beer and went to bed. the next day we did some shoppingtogether. H had a really good attitude. was very affectionate. Later in the night we held each other while we laid on the couch and caught up on the days football games. We went to bed. He woke up in the middle of the night and couldn't sleep so he went downstairs and slept on the couch. H was depressed when I woke up and came down. I was able to snap him out of it and we finished shopping. <p>We had a superb day. I really wanted some loving in the evening but didn't pressure him. He never really seems to want sex unless I initiate strenueously. He woke up really depressed this morning and said he just can't wait for this day to be over. I just held him.<p>I guess I don't really know what I am complaining about everything seems to be going well but He seems so depressed amnd emotionally detached. Sometimes I have a hard time not getting sucked in. He refuses medication. I have talked about it numerous times. He believes he got himself into this mess he needs to get himself out. I try to explain that both of us got into this together. <p>You are right [b] JustLearning /B] I really do try to educate my husband instead of just trying to be there for him. I guess I get so scared when I see him so depressed I want to fix him/it.<p>I t really helps to be able to express this . Many times I dodn't even know what I am feeling, thinking etc. <p>Thanks <p>God Bless and Merry X-mas to all

Oh God,<p>what is wrong with me?? I am so embarrassed and ashamed. I am so afraid to even post what went on last night but I know that I have to if I am going to get better and through this.<p>everything was going well. As you could see from previous post. We went to my H family for X-mas. And everything was going fine until his sister arived and proceeded to tell a friend who stopped byhow she was so glad her divorce was final. She discussed the horror of her marrige etc. and how she had wanted out of it sooner but her H wouldn't let her. Well of course that got me to thinking that next x-mas could be have stories of me.<p>Once the actual festivities began everything went Ok. My H got me a great gift. On the way home though I got insecure and started spouting about fears etc. H said he just needed time to sort though things. I don't even know how things got so out of hand but they did. I started crying and got really clingy. yet I told him i'd move out and give him his dreams etc. he would be rid of me soon etc. Then of course to try and get some reaction out of him I talked divorce etc.
While we were in the car I was asking myself what are you doing? This is not the way you want to handle this. <p>We get home and I continue stating that I will sleep on the couch. H doesmt want me to but I do anyway. Then of course I start to cry very loudly. I wanted him to come down and talk to me. He came down but just got a pillow and blanket to sleep on the floor. <p>God I am crazy!! I honestly don't know what was going through my head I just wanted attention but I made the situation worse. I feel so foolish writing the next bit and am tempted to leave it out because I come off as completely nuts. But I took my blanket and pillow and went upstairs to sleep in the tub. Yes, the damn tub. Again just to see if he would notice. Well he did. He said to me are you hysterical or what and I just strated laughing I mean what in the hell was I thinking/doing? He convinces me to come to bed. I finally do. <p>Now today, He comes home early from work hysterical, crying,saying he can't do this anymore. He is sorry he messed up my life. He can't go on like this anymore. I apologized and explained that he didn't do this to me I am doing it to myself. I held him while he cried himself to sleep.<p>I feel so horrible for what I am doing to him. We are both such a mess.<p>Help

Perdu (LC),<p>You two need to get a grip. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Seriously, tonight tell him what triggered your behavior. Apologize for it and then tell him in the future when you need attention you will let him know by... I don't know clucking at him [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . Seriously, the two of you need to sit down and talk and set up signals so that each of you can help the other.<p>When you need attention you need a "safe" word that let's him know you are feeling the need for reassurance. When he is down and depressed as well as feeling guilty, he needs a signal that he needs your help.<p>What I think you saw from your H is his guilt for what he has done. It is hurting him to see you hurt and he doesn't know how to fix it. There is a way of course and it is part of meeting each others "needs". It does work.<p>Now, LC go talk to H, apologize again, and then set about making a plan so that the two of you can communicate without having to spend the night in the tub. That is really only a good situation during tornados and hurricanes. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Hang in there you two are making progress.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Thank you JL!! <p>Thanks for making a horrible situation seem much better. Your humour is very refreshing. I wish I would have found this site sooner because I never would have resorted to such bizarre behavior. <p>I try to believe that everything happens for a reason. I know I will be in a much better place when I get through this. <p>
Justlearning How are you doing??

Morning LC,<p>Did you and H have a talk??? I hope so. I wrote you a long post last night and the computer God's frowned on me and ate it. Probably just as well, right?<p>In any event I do hope you and H talk. I also hope that as you have read here and hopefully some of the material, that you have noticed there really is a plan that works. Not just "talking" with people until everyone feels good.<p>If you have come to that conclusion you might want to mention to your H that you have found such a program. Tell him if it is helping you and if so offer to show it to him. No pressure and definetly don't try to "educate" him. That is a hugh No No.<p>One question, does your H take anything for his depression? If not he should consider it. If he asks why point out his coming home crying from work, then he his very likely severely depressed. Little wonder when you think about it. This affair has taken a hugh toll on him. He is not the type to handle this well, of that you can be certain.<p>LC, I see hope for your situation. Your H doesn't because he is very depressed, in fact writing this OW is his way of dealing with the depression. So see if you can convince him to go to a Doc and maybe get a complete physical. There may be other issues as well.<p>Meanwhile, keep working on YOUR Plan A.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Hi JL,<p>Yes H and I had a talk two evenings ago. He is not one for conversation. I apologized and explained my behavior. He just kept telling me he has lost and destroyed everything. That he needed some time by himself to discover what went wrong. I kept telling him that he did not ruin everything. I told him that I am still here and all of the reasons why I love him etc. He said he destroyed everything that was between us. I again said he did not. He got very angry and said I am not arguing with you about this. I said I didn't realize we were arguing. I thought we were having a discussion and went downstairs to watch tv.
A few minutes later he came down and tweeked my head and just smiled a very sad smile. I invited him to watch tv with me. He said no maybe later and went back upstairs. He came down afew minutes later for a glass of water. I told him a movie was going to be on 8 if he wanted to watch it with me. he said he'd be down at 8. We watched snuggled together. <p>I do see that he is very depressed. He refuses medication. He believes he got himself into this mess he will get himself out all by himself. I also realize that the A was his anti depressant. I have a feeling that he and the OW are fighting. Again, he has not physically seen her for a year and a half. I am not certain how long she can hang in there. Obviously, he is ot too invested in her or he would have gone to see her by now. <p>This is all so bizarre. I can't believe I am or any of us are dealing with all of this crap. He keeps telling me that he needs to be alone. Originally Imade plans to go away for awhile. Now I am not so sure. I get the feeling that my h is deaing with him problem for the firtst time. I f i go away for awhile it gves him the opportunity to build up all of the walls he has surrounded himself with for so many years again.<p>any advice.<p>TC

Hey, I realized after I had just sent message that I signout TC instead of LC. Boy am I really lost [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] I had to get going so didn't have time to change it sooner.<p>Perdu (LC)

LC,<p>Generally, the "time alone to think" statement means time to get together with OP. It is invoked often as you will see when reading here. It is not a good idea.<p>As for the anti-D's, I understand your H on that most of us guys are very reluctant to take them. Partly because in the past and even now they can be used to end a career by an employer.<p>However, you might ask him if he had bad eyesight would he drive a car? Would risk his life or anyone else by refusing to wear glasses. In many respects the anti-D's are like glasses, they help one see things better.<p>Another concern, particularly of men, is that some anti-D's affect sexual performance or drive. Men don't want to lose that because often it is their only avenue for being close to the spouse. Sad but true fact. I can attest to that.<p>LC, keep up the good work. Also I would inform your H he doesn't get to decide if he has messed things up with you. YOU get to decide that point and you have decided he is a keeper. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>He needs help, counseling would be the best, but counseling with a pro-marriage counselor. Also keep working on the Plan A to meet his needs, make changes in you as you see them, and no LB's.<p>
Tough stuff LC, but you can do it. Many here have done it and succeeded. So hang in there.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Hi Again,<p>Thanks JL. <p>Thats what I thought. Many of my friends are advising me to leave. As is my counselor. Part of the problem is that I have over this year lost most of my self-confidence. I wish I had found this site a year ago. I was so pissed off at the internet I stayed away from it and obviuosly didn't want H to have as much access. Unfortnately I didn't have this support and I lost myself way more than I should have. I mean sleeping in tubs is alittle over the top. <p>My H obviuosly loves me. I can feel it and he tells me daily. I let myself get jealous and it hurt so much for so long. I would get mental pictures of the two of them that would just kill. I have gotten through much of that. But It was at great personal loss. <p>JL you are right My H is so guilty about hurting me. He doesn't believe he can make me happy or meet my needs. He believes he has hurt me too much and that our patterns our too ingrained to change. I just have to show him that he can meet my needs and that he is meeting many of them. Otherwise I wouldn't have hung in there for so long. I also have to heal myself to show him that we ca change.<p>Thanks JL
JL I hope all is well with you. You haven't told me much about yourself.<p>Best Wishes to ALL

Perdu,<p>We may have to change your name. You are not lost at all. You have broken the code. Get the His Needs Her Needs book and go over it with H. Have him do the survey and you do it. Then compare, my bet you are right. In many ways you two are doing better than either of you think.<p>Still lots of work to do, but by you taking over control of your recovery you will find that although you are still on the rollercoaster you will gain much greater confidence in yourself.<p>So until you decide on a new name, I think we are going to have to stick with LC. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>You are doing well Girl, keep it up.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Hi,<p>JL you are a confidence booster. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I tried to do the needs questionaire with my H tonight. He got pissed in the middle of it and stated I can't categorize my life into A,B,C & D. He went upstairs. I finished my questionnaire and then headed up stairs. I just put my arm on his and rubbed it. I didn't say anything. He said I know you are really trying. I said I was glad you filled out the parts you did because i learned somethings. I stated that I learned that you feel we talk too much and that you feel uncomfortable with how open I am with you. He tried to say that we are just two different people. I agreed but that stated that doesn't mean that we are incompatible. He grunted. <p>I also stated to him "I was surprised to learn that you felt that you needed more affection." He got pissed again and stated he had filling out questionaires he didn't know how to answer them. I let that one go. I just held him for abit and then went back downstairs.<p>I am wondering do you think he is not really angry just confused/uncomfortable with the initimate conversation. I always used to take his anger so personally. But am now wondering if he is just really uncomfortable and this is some sort of defense from really letting anyone in. Just a thought??<p>I definitely need to buy all of the Harley books. This site has changed my life. I used to feel I had no control. I am learning that I have way more than I ever thought. I just hope I can maintain. This site is a Godsend.<p>Perdu (LC)

I hate this. I just don't know what to do? I am getting do tired. I boughtthe His Needs, Her Needsand LoveBustersBooks. The book store was sold out of SAA. <p>I am dieing here. My H insists that he needs to be alone. He doesn't want to do anything this evening. I am so torn because I am trying to respect him and his needs yet I disagree about leaving right now. God I am so tired I just wish everything would go away. I am about ready to give up. There is so much pain. For the last year and half it has been a battle.He is convincing me that is really isn't worth the fight. <p>He has steadliy been declining. He is hung over and moping around the house all day long. I just don't know what to do because now I am becoming depressed. Maybe we are bad for each other.<p>too tired to continue. Hope everyone else is doing better than I am. Wishing Everyome a Happy New Year.<p>Perdu

Hi LC, [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>
Well let's see. "We are just two different People." Well, I have a very well reasoned response to that statement: DUH!!! Do you think? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Of course you are that is why understanding each other and communicating with each other is crucial. He does things for you expecting that you will be overjoyed and your are not. You do things for him to show him you love him and he gets angry. It is a case of missing each others needs.<p>I believe you are right. The anger is a defense mechanism. Part of the fight or flight response of people who are hurt. You may not believe this but your H is hurting. Yeah, some of it was self-inflicted and some of it probably comes because you two haven't connected for a long time.<p>As for the questionaire, please make sure he understands there are no "right" answers you are looking for. You won't get mad at his answers. You did very good by backing off when he got angry. My personal guess is that he got frustrated because he doesn't know the answers himself. It is often very hard especially for us guys to really reach down and decide how we feel about things and even admit we have NEEDS. <p>Men are not NEEDY you know. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] We are horney, lonely, isolated, mistreated, ... but NEEDY never. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I have mentioned this to other people some think I am being sexist, but it seems to me us guys are trained to be independent and not NEED anyone. WRONG, we do, but it is hard to admit sometimes.<p>So when you see your H starting to show signs of anger, my guess it is frustration. Frustration with himself primarily. Don't take it pesonally but do something proactive. Lean over and plant a big wet one on him, smile, and then say we'll do this later when you are feeling better. <p>Proactive affection with out the request to return often startles men. We are conditioned to some degree to think that if a woman shows affection she wants something from us and it isn't sex. Of course women are often conditioned that if men are doing something nice for them all we want is sex.<p>NOTHING COULD BE FARTHER FROM THE TRUTH. We want sex, love, and complete devotion. That is all. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Seriously, Perdu you are doing well. Keep reading and keep talking to your H. Since he isn't very verbal, contact with him (like you did), looking at him, a kiss for no reason are very good ways to get the message across without putting him in a position where he can be frustrated.<p>Please read about Plan A. I suspect your are still battling the affair if not the after affects of the affair. Most people must convince themselves that their spouse is not a good one in order to have an affair. This is the "fog" you will see mentioned here. This strange world where nothing seems to make sense to the outside observer.<p>In any event hang in there. You are doing well.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Hi Perdu,<p>JL's giving you great advice and support--nothing I can add to what he's said. I think you're doing great! It's very very difficult, I know, but you really seem to be on track. Don't let bad days get you down--it can be a real roller coaster! You've found a great place here & I hope we can help.<p>Rusty