..<p>[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: dying ]</p>

Your pain is no less justified than anyone else's. Pain is pain.<p>I am sorry you and she are going thru this.<p>I have to run now....will check back later.<p>Kathi

I think that you shouldn't be calling her a whore and be so hard on her. I think it's you with the issues, not her. You dumped her. You were taking a break. She had every right to go out with another man and if she wanted to have sex with him, that was her business. You guys were broken up for God's sake. How dare you. It's not your job to make her feel bad about it. You sound controlling. I do believe you really love her though. If you love her, just forget about this and realize that she never cheated on you.

Hello dying,<p>Welcome to marriage builders. The previous poster was perhaps a little blunt, but she was right. So lets review a few things here.<p>1. You weren't engaged when this happened.<p>2. You weren't dating when this happened.<p>3. She had no idea you were contemplating asking her to marry you.<p>4. I'm guessing here, but one or both of you weren't virgins when you met and certainly your interactions sexually didn't mean that much since you two were broken up.<p>I suppose you know where I am going with this right? Well, you are partly right and you are partly wrong. <p>My take on this is you have every right to feel bad about what has happened, you loved her and wanted to marry her.<p>BUT, she cannot read minds and the items above suggested to her that she was on her own to lead her life as she wished without concern for your feelings. She was doing that. As for the one night stand, that doesn't make her a whore, or even a loose woman. For years you two were separated and she did not fool around.<p>So when looking at the data, I would suggest that you have every right to think that if you two marry she will be a faithful wife. And let's face it, that is the major issue of all major issues.<p>As for the oral sex after sex using a condom, well I doubt that there was anything there.<p>Dying, I think you need to realize that neither of you acted supidly in this matter. You had concerns about marrying her, given her past behavior with regard to finances and jobs. You exercised your concerns by separating from her. It was not a STUPID thing to do at all.<p>She probably has/had concerns about you and herself. After all she was suffering from depression, had forced you into deep debt, and had failed to finish her education. Further, you weren't exactly enthusiastic about continuing the relationship. All of her concerns were well founded and her expections from you were realistic given what she knew.<p>dying, I think you know this because you had a fear of committing to her, but let me repeat it for you.<p>Marriage IS NOT like dating, living together, or even being engaged. It is about commitment big time. Frankly, I don't see anything in her behavior that suggests that IF she commits to you and IF you commit to her, that your marriage cannot be successful.<p>While it hurt you that she had sex with that man, she was on her own at that time.<p>I have some doubts if either of you are really mature enough and ready to marry, but most people aren't. I would strongly suggest you go buy two books. One is called His Needs Her Needs by Harley and the other is called Surviving an Affair also by Harley.<p>The first you two MUST read before marriage and it is an easy book to read. I believe it will open both of your eyes to ideas for having a very good marriage. The second book doesn't apply to you two, BUT it covers issues that are germaine to both of you. Nothing wrong with having more knowledge.<p>Dying, it is time to step back. She didn't do this to hurt you. She isn't a whore. She obviously loves you and was very hurt by your reluctance no matter how well founded. So, back off on this.<p>As for your work, I do think you are still very angry about the financial issues and you need to resolve this with yourself and her before you marry her. This is far more important than the sex issue, although I doubt you believe it right now.<p>So do some reading, learn about needs (look for the general welcome posted by 'Onegoing' on the Just Found Out section of this site. THEN sit down with your girlfriend and have a long talk about the issues. Frankly, her having sex with that guy is not one of THE issues you need to worry about.<p>Hope something I have said will help you.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

I hate to say it buddy, but I don't think you have any right to be looking down on her. I totally understand how you must feel and it is only natural. But I think you really have yourself to blame. If you hadn't been playing it so cool right up to the last minute, it sounds like your girl would have never been with this other guy. Your pain is real, but your blame of her is NOT. I think she is totally innocent. And I think you really know that you screwed this up for yourself. Try to move through this, but do not try to blame her. If you find you can't stop blaming her, do both of you a favor and don't marry her... nobody needs to deal with your ilplaced anger for the rest of their lives.

Amen to that Conan!

dying I have a question.<p>This guy from work who is 10 years older than her that she had sex with. Is he is any management position and does he have any work authority over her?

dying--<p>Well, JL came along and said most everything I would say. I'll just add one thought. <p>Don't marry in February unless you are both quite sure you have resolved the issues you are dealing with. NOT because of the incident alon...you had a lot of issues that were problematic before then. Postponing the wedding, if you decide to do so, should not be considered a "punishment" for anything, but a gift you give each other of taking the time (and counseling if need be) to ensure that your marraige can be a good one. <p>The last thing you want to do is have a special day like that clouded with pain and anger...make your wedding day one you can both look back on with joy and the certainty that you did the right thing in marrying. Trust me, there will be days of doubt later on, you need a good foundation to start from.<p>Kathi

..<p>[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: dying ]</p>

dying,<p>The leaving the job is a major issue IF the WS has had an affair, specifically if there were emotional connections. It sounds as if this was a One night stand. In that case, leaving the job or staying isn't really an issue. Actually, I suspect seeing this man will bother your GF far more than it bothers you.<p>I doubt that this is the type of behavior she is very proud of although you and she had sort of ended her relationship with you.<p>I hope you have taken the time and gotten the books we mentioned. If so do read them and read them with her. You will see many of your issues within those covers. I also hope that you have decided to address your anger with her over the job thing and staying with you while not helping financially.<p>It would seem to this author that you both have issues. By the way, has she sought help to address her depression? I surely hope so.<p>Keep posting, your situation is definitely salvagable. I do hope that you begin to see this as well.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Dude, I hear your lament and have been there before, too, man. It burns like a motherf**ker, doesn't it? <p>The hardest damn thing I've ever had to realize is that women, when set free, get attention so fast that by the time we are just figuring out what to do, they have many many opportinities to
get hooked up. I knew a guy who was engaged to a beautiful girl who, as things went downhill, got in an argument with him at a party and bet him she could get laid faster than he could. She then
proceeded to ask around who wants to f*** her.
She got much, much interest and he was devastated.<p>Now you strike me as being relatively young, so I'm gonna submit, probably to the contradiction of many here, that as you get older sex becomes less of a Ace of Spades if you know what I mean.
After a while you will realize that the time she spent with that guy meant absolutely nill to her.
Women don't dwell on sex and the particulars like guys do. Sure, she was obviously enjoying herself, but not the way she did with you. <p>I don't know. Take some time--maybe push the date out some. Tell her you'd like to get re-engaged in a way that is less controversial to you. Maybe take her to Hawaii and re-commit there. Anything to make the engagement a little more palateable.<p>I do feel your pain, though. Honestly, I'd have probably broken up. It's a hot topic with me.
I'm not very understanding that way. But I am trying. My wife and I broke up a few months before getting engaged and we both saw other people. I was still freakin jealous. How do i feel now after 4 years and almost three years of marriage? Doesn't bother me a bit. She tells me
nobody she ever dated even comes close to me; that
I am so different and special than anyone else.<p>What else could a guy possibly want?

..<p>[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: dying ]</p>

dying,<p>Does your GF have any worries about marrying you? She should.<p>You said <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> know I'm on roller coaster... and I may be stupid, but still I believe she is the one for me - flaws and all... But I also can't ignore that she was capable of such stupidity/weakness/vulnerability under certain conditions... <hr></blockquote><p>You are making some very harsh and unwarrented statements here. She wasn't stupid. She wanted to get laid. (I am being blunt). Having a need for approval isn't a weakness, but it can be carried too far. Being vulnerable isn't a trait that should be condemned. <p>You are placing your fears and projections into her.<p>So let me briefly talks issues as I can remember them from this long post.<p>1. When she drinks her need for approval (her insecurities) come out.<p>2. She was not a virgin and having sex without benefit of matrimony is not new to her. She lived with you for how long???? In another words, your own views of sex with a woman you aren't married to are not that staunch are they??<p>3. She has issues due to her up bringing. She thinks that to be a male or act like a male means you cannot bend or negotiate.<p>4. You have major issues with marriage and commitment as you yourself say. Further, it would seem that you are ready to condemn, and you want her to do what you want even if she doesn't know what that is.<p>5. THIS IS THE BIGGEST ONE OF ALL. You have been dating for 7 years,living together for years, and yet YOU COULD NOT COMMIT TO MARRIAGE. There is something wrong with this relationship dying. <p>What is wrong you both have to figure out. I strongly recommend that you and she have more counseling. That both of you need to understand her deep seeded need for approval and your need to control things. It seems to show through.<p>I will reiterate my view here. She didn't have sex with that guy because she was dumb, needy, or to hurt you. She had sex with him because she wanted to. She had no reason to think that your email was anything more than you trying to control her with no commitment on your part. She could not read your mind. <p>Most people don't expect someone on their doorstep at 2am with a ring asking for a commitment to marriage. Particularly someone that you are not seeing or dating. That is weird dying. More weird than her deciding after a few drinks that she would like to have sex with this guy because she felt she owed him and wanted to.<p>Please keep talking to her. Discuss this approval thing, but remember when you two were dating she never slept with anyone. Further, I bet she has some doubts about you as well.<p>Get help,communicate, and learn what each of you needs and figure out each of you are going to PROTECT not control each other.<p>THat is my take on this. Sorry I must go or this would be longer and probably make more sense.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

You are right about a lot of things... I've deleted my posts because I need to re-think a lot of things... <p>In some ways, as you point out - I'm just wrong. In other ways, I'm just not communicating what I feel very well (big surprise), and if she might be on the board in the future, I don't want her to read something that I don't mean and be hurt... <p>I want the opportunity to re-think things after bouncing it on the board and talk to her then... I admit my thoughts are all over the place...<p>But I also feel misunderstood... <p>'flaws and all' is a phrase between us meaning 'not perfect, but perfect for me'... And of course, she applies to me as well... Obviously she has plenty of my flaws to apply it to...<p>Also, is it right to speak as if all/any sex outside of marriage is all the same? ... I think it isn't... We have both been in a deep (although conflicted), but monogamous relationship for 7 years... One can't compare what she did that night with our sex in any way, shape or form. -and just because we aren't virgins and had sex before marriage doesn't justify her actions or make such an encounter 'ok'... <p>As a reason, 'just wanting to get laid' pretty much sucks... and so close to what she perceived as the end of our relationship, it doesn't reflect well on the love she feels for me, or love/respect she should have had for herself... <p>I think you know I am right about that. Otherwise, there would be a lot more single men & women bragging about there one night stands each morning... <p>Besides, something tells me that if we were talking about a conflict between you and the person you loved with all your heart -regardless of the nature of the conflict or of the marital status at the time off the encounter- you would not be such an advocate of his or her one night stand... <p>But your right... We were together for a long time - my reasons for hesitating were logical... My behavior while we were apart was logical, and reflected my feelings for her... Her reasons for ****ing a guy 24 hours after she met him are not logical -and do not reflect her feelings for me... <p>All that said though, you are also absolutely right about the emails... But I did not want her "to do what I want even if she doesn't know what it is". I always assumed she would do what she wanted. But I also made the mistake of assuming that she would WANT to conduct herself in a manner that reflects the wonderful person I believe she is:<p>Bottom Line:
-I saw other people and hated it, and she hated me doing it.
-She saw other people and hated it, and I hated her doing it.
-But I never even got had a chance... If I were given a chance -if she had not chosen to 'start dating' by ****ing a guy, we would not be here right now.<p>I'm trying hard to deal with these feelings... I want to find a way ... and please realize I'm doing my best to keep my hurt/pain on this board as opposed to hitting her with it... I value your opinion... You have given me cause for great introspection, and shown me where I am wrong in many ways... <p>I hope you will continue... I appreciate the time you've given me...

....<p>[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: dying ]</p>

I think you are still missing the boat here. She didn't do anything wrong. You were broken up - which means she is free to **** any man she wants to...(excuse the language but I am angry). Whether it was a one night stand or not, it is none of your business! You guys were over! IT'S THAT SIMPLE!!! Please get some counseling. Do not marry her. You are obviously not ready.

I think you are still missing the boat here. She didn't do anything wrong. You were broken up - which means she is free to **** any man she wants to...(excuse the language but I am angry). Whether it was a one night stand or not, it is none of your business! You guys were over! IT'S THAT SIMPLE!!! Please get some counseling. Do not marry her. You are obviously not ready.

dying,<p>I only have a few moments. But I needed to respond to you. You said <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Also, is it right to speak as if all/any sex outside of marriage is all the same? ... I think it isn't... We have both been in a deep (although conflicted), but monogamous relationship for 7 years...<hr></blockquote> <p>You keep forgetting that you were NOT in a monogamous relationship with her any longer. By your own choice you had left her. THERE WAS NO COMMITMENT. So knock it off. She is a grown woman, you aren't and weren't her keeper, her boyfriend, her fiancee, nothing. You were gone. She could do as she pleased without an fear of breaking any commitments.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> One can't compare what she did that night with our sex in any way, shape or form. -and just because we aren't virgins and had sex before marriage doesn't justify her actions or make such an encounter 'ok'... <hr></blockquote><p>You are making up your own rules my friend. And then complaining that no one else is playing by them. You claim what she did was "not logical". What has logic to do with this? Further, whose logic applies? It seems logical to me, that she wanted sex and she felt an attraction to this guy and slept with him. Nothing illogical about it. Pretty normal these days were people sleep, live, whatever with each other without the benefit of marriage.<p>You can make this about you all you want, but dying what she did had nothing to do with you. NOT ONE SINGLE THING. She did what she wanted to and she was free to do this.<p>You my man are focusing on the wrong thing. If you keep it up my suspicion is that you will lose her. Focus on her needs for approval and affection. Focus on whether or not you two agree on how to raise children. If you don't forget getting married. Talk about your religious beliefs and whether you two agree. Talk about money and how to handle it when you marry.<p>dying, there are many many issue to discuss before a marriage. Frankly, I don't think you two should get married. You constantly judge her as dumb, more with money, lazy, irrsponsible, illogical. In short she doesn't do what you want her to do.<p>I think you need to step back and get a grip on yourself. Your believe in her weaknesses is going to make her and your life miserable. The ONS is nothing compared to the other issues.<p>Pay attention to the important stuff dying. This is serious business and I don't think you are ready for it yet.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Dying...<p>Listen, I think that in a way JL and Shannon are being a bit tough on you. But, in another way they are right.<p>1. No one can tell you you are wrong for feeling the way you do. Feelings are not right or wrong, they just are. And, I do understand you feel hurt, and I am sorry.<p>2. Facts on the other hand, are more concrete. Your gf did not betray any promises between you two. She did not know you had decided to opt-in again, and she was acting as a free agent.<p>So, in light of the two elements listed, your task is to re-examine your feelings and come to terms with them. Try and work with your GF to work thru all this painful mess. <p>I do think counseling would assist in the process. Your gf deserves to have a H who accepts all of her, including her past actions. You deserve a W you can truly love and respect. Right now, neither of you are getting what you deserve, but I think you can get there.<p>Good luck.<p>Kathi

JL-
Talking w/ you and some rather intense counseling (including a huge session yesterday) were good... Helped to Peel away some layers of hurt and expose the real issue I must grapple with...<p> Peeling back the pain, everyone - including me - sees that she definitely had 'the right' to do what she did... that isn't the issue... as you point out -it isn't even debatable. ...but her 'right to do it " doesn't make it ok - or something that does not require my forgiveness.<p>Counselor: affirms and pursues the path you and I started yesterday... notes that actions say more than words... says this is the path towards reconciliation... but the choice will be mine... You'll need to read the whole thing before judging:

With the realization that actions say more than words he says maybe we shouldn't bother with the "why" -because her actions weren't logical.. don't reflect her feelings towards me... and attempts by anyone to offer an explanation, or trivialize it by saying she had the right to do it, will only meet with doom as I will no doubt be hurt by such attempts and will angrily rip each one to shreds... <p>He says maybe - since actions do say more than words- we should deal with what it MEANS instead of WHY... And thus the issue becomes exactly what I said yesterday... There is no way around it... It needs to be dealt with: <p>-Viewed in isolation, her decision to 'start dating' by ****ing a guy, does not reflect well on the love she feels for me, or love/respect she should have had for herself... <p>-Take it in isolation, and it says she doesn't love me, and she isn't the type of person I should trust as a wife or as a mother - to teach my children how to love/respect themselves...<p>-But take it out of the isolation... view all her actions instead of 1... And view them all in the context of her life, and our life, and it says something different. <p>About her love for me:
-see her throughout our 7 year relationship... see her follow me to 2 states... see her hold on when she thought it was over... see that she was willing to give up her dreams to be with me, when she was never really sure how I felt... See that she only did this when she thought I had started sleeping with someone, and yet even with that suspicion STILL in her mind, she STILL immediately said yes to me... and was willing to do anything to hide her actions from me -at all costs... Look at the totality of her actions, and even through all the hurt and tears, it still says she loves me more than anything on this earth... and wants this marriage more than anything else in her life...<p>About her love/respect for herself:
-Initially crushed by her father... complicated by school/career troubles... multiplied by her failure to contribute and by forcing me into a position which she knew made me hesitate to commit to her in marriage... top that off by what she saw as the ultimate rejection of the love of her life, and you begin to understand... ...then remember that even in this state she still never betrayed me... and then she stayed faithful for an additional 3 months after we were broken up... Then see that it wasn't until the final blow (her mistaken impression that I was sleeping with someone), that she was vulnerable enough to allow this to happen... view the totality of her actions and you get a sense of the strength and fidelity of this woman... You get a sense of the true amount of respect she must have for herself... and you realize it came entirely from inside of her and from her faith that I love her... It wasn't until she believed I didn't love her that it happened... Look at all this and you see that she is exactly the kind of woman you should trust as your wife, and she is exactly the type of woman who, with my love and acceptance, can and will overcome the example of her father to love/teach our children in exactly the way she deserved, but never received from her father. <p>Furthermore, I look at all of this and hate myself for hurting her so... Hate myself for being so Goddamn logical... And I ****ing loath myself for being me...<p>As you've so easily seen, and the counselor also points out, I am an obsessive perfectionist... I am ridiculously hard on myself... And less, but still unrealistically hard on those around me.... I always want - and usually succeed - in controlling every aspect of my life, acheving everything I set out to do, making the world bend at my will, and in making everything in my life perfect and right...<p>The counselor points out, that from what he's heard, he'd "bet his [censored]" this is something she admires and loves about me immensely... But that for someone of my personality type - especially with the strength of my convictions about marriage - and the things I've seen through my work and own childhood... -that having to deal, for the rest of my life, with the knowledge that a few hours before I got engaged, my bride was in bed with another man is nearly an impossible task... it is just too big an event, too significant a part of my life not to be perfect... not to be right... <p>The shock, pain, hurt, and self-hatred, combined with my obsessive / perfectionist personality could very well make it impossible for me to focus forever on the totality of her actions... Although it will get easier in time, it is likely to be a great source of pain for me throughout my life, as I will no doubt occasionally remember it in isolation, as opposed to in totality... <p>Here we come to the end... The fact that my actions will also mean more than words... That this one decision: to forgive her and love her unconditionally with all I am (flawed as I may be) or to take another path... will say infinitely more about my love for her, than her one decision will ever say about her love for me... <p>I forgive her.<p>[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: dying ]<p>[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: dying ]</p>