Hi Guys, read your posts, given me food for thought. OK, what if I want sex with my H? What if I want to try to make it more fun? Its just as much for me as for him.<p>I'm confused again. Plan A is for me, yet I'm demonstrating the changes I've made to him. They are the changes that I've wanted to make for me. So far I haven't done anything that made me feel uncomfortable.<p>Either, I get SF from my H or I get it somewhere else. It seems to me that if I'm still atracted in that way to him there is no problem. We have safe sex, we alway did.<p>There is something that I'm having trouble with and it is withdrawing from my bank. When I was cleaning out stuff last night I found two videos "Asian Prostitutes" and something else Asian. I'm not Asian. I can never become Asian, so maybe no matter what I do, it won't be enough because I am not what my H wants in life anyway. Maybe he's right, maybe the last 11 years were a big mistake. Some of the calls on the phone bill were to Thailand, so I think there may be more than one now, or she's in Thailand. I don't knw, and I'm sick of guessing.<p>I don't intend to move before I'm ready and he will just have to deal with that. <p>I really want my loving H back, that's if he ever existed. I'm questioning everything after reading your posts and last night. What if nothing is real anymore? What if it never was real and we were living a lie? <p>I feel like I'm the turtle on the fence. I don't know how I got here or how to get off without hurting myself. I'm putting a lot of energy in, waving leg and arms around in an attempt to swim forward but how do I get there if there's no foundation around me?<p>This has been a hard fall back into 'reality'.

Hey Seahorse!<p> I really can't say too much except WAIT. That is what Redhat has told me. It is very hard I know. But by being patient and waiting you are doing something.<p> I know you need SF so do I. I was guilty of trying to initiate it with my H and then he responded and initiated it with me. It was horrible and ended awkwardly. Ithink he was trying but he is so foggy he actually stooped in the middle both times. It was not a good last experience. So to fend off and surpress thoses urges I have become incredibly active physically. As you know with kickboxing, boxing, running and exercising. Which I think in some way heightens sexual drive because I feel so good about myself inside and out. But I can not go out and get it somewhere else so I exhaust myself in the meantime. We have to be very careful how we conduct ourselves. Our H may come up with their own lies based on our new found sex drives. We can not give them any amunition. There are many people out there married or not who go without sex for a long time. It is something we have to do. Unfortunately.<p> I'm with you on this one. I know I can no longer have sex with my h and that kills me because it was great. But he's ruined that now. All we can do is wait.
Sorry I don't have more of an upbeat response. I wish I did. It's been a tough couple of days. My MIL says my H is coming back this week to me for a few days. I don't know why.
Forgiver

Hi Forgiver and JAcky, I appreciate your point of view on this, but to be honest I've thought a lot about it and I don't agree. <p>When I initiate with my H, its actually that I want to, its not that I'm trying to manipulate. At least, I had never thought of it as manipulation. I enjoy being with him in this way. I've found a part of myself that I've denied for a long time. Maybe I'm being selfish by doing this?<p>I'm interested to know why it was suggested in the book that its not a good idea to have sex during this time. The sex was a major part of my marriage break up, and my H has said that. <p>I've really thought a lot about my Plan A in the last 24 hours, analysed it. its easy to get caught up in 'doing things' to try to manipulate the WS and I know that I've been guilty of that. <p>I am sure my plan A is OK, I'm hurting, I want my husband back, but I'm being patient, I'm planning my life and trying to discover where I fit in to the grand scheme of things, I'm trying to occupy myself and do the things I like to do. One of these is sex. When we interact there are no LB's and I know there has been some deposits. On the weekend we spent some really nice, non-sexual time together. To me if you say I shouldn't be having sex with him, them maybe I shouldn't be spending time with him either, but I love the guy I want to be with him. <p>Even so, I try to put my mind in the set that he's already gone, which is a struggle, moments of fog clearing give me hope. He's told me that he still has feelings for me. I do not believe he dosen't love me anymore and I do not believe my marriage is over. As far as I am concerned he is my husband and I'm just waiting for him to realise that.<p>I'm confused, and I don't understand. Plan A is for the BS, and it is also to demonstrate changes made. I've let go of him-I don't control anymore, and I'm working on our sex life. If I stop having sex because 'it clouds the issue' how do I show that I'm sincere and how do I continue my plan A if part of my plan A is working on regaining a sex life? <p>Do you see my point? I am interested to hear further points of view about it, because maybe I've got the idea of plan A wrong.<p>[ May 19, 2002: Message edited by: Seahorse ]<p>[ May 19, 2002: Message edited by: Seahorse ]</p>

Seahorse,<p>You get it right. It is about you to demonstrate changes. If SF is one of the complaint that H has on M & you ... yes, how do you show changes if you don't do it. Enjoy it. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . Also in plan A, you have to fill in WS's ENs, as much as WS allows you to ... that is toward your advantage.<p>Plan A is not about manipulating your H to get back. None at all ... it is about you. Understand that you can not control neither influence or interfere w/ A. So you do your part to fix this M and let him do his part. He might not do his part by then you might have to go to plan B to protect your feeling.<p>The gray line in here is if you have SF bc you want to "give" him ... you are in the wrong place. After you show your changes ... a few awsome SF from your part ... if there is no effect on your plan A and there is a disrespect of H toward you on this subject, you choice to make, you could draw the line and tell H that you can not disrespect your self ... you have to do this to protect your selfworth, got nothing to do with H. ( [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] fogese reasoning, of course it get to do with him, his behavior however most WS will not count that actionas LB'ed ... the only language they understood, give a far fetch reason and twist the word to reason unlogical behavior)<p> [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] Which book that discourage SF are talking about ? DB ?. ... I have a problem actually with DB. IMVHO. It is a very narrow view of plan A !. It works for certain situation, it might be very dangerous for certain situation. I always try to put my opinion to try an actions first and see if it works before going full blast. It works mostly on man and also in very early stages of A. Just my opinion. MB is a gudeline to save M, each individual find their own steps ... as long as follow the guideline find what is work for you. This is why I always try to get people to talk to Steve or Jennifer. We put out our opinion but for advice you seek professional that could assess your situation and guide you. Remember Steve and Jennifer only "coach" you not tell you what to do !. SH many times has the answers but he just led me to find it on my own. What good does it do if I save my M but fails to rebuild M ?. THIS IS MARRIAGE BUILDERS.<p>Hope it helps and hope old timmer such as WAT, Orchid, NSR, etc could comment on this too. -RH-

Hi Redhat, Forgiver and Jacky, I think I see what you're saying, and I guess its true. There is no 'prototype' for plan A, just guidelines. What is OK for me (fulfilling SF) may not be Ok for Forgiver or Jacky or anyone else. I have not felt uncomfortable with it so far (until I read Jacky and Forgiver's posts).<p>I do agree, however that I cannot go on like this forever. I believe I am demonstrating (to myself as well as my H) that I am willing to change, that I am willing to detach and live my life, that I can walk away without regret, and most importantly for me, that I will survive - I'll be sad and hurt, but I'll survive. My challenge continues to be keeping busy enough not to brood-(I'm working on that, I'm going back to doing Telephone Crisis counselling as a volunteer, I did this once before in a particularly bad time during my life and it helped a lot). <p>If all aspects of my plan do not work, then there is nothing left to do but go to plan B. This will be at the time that my intuition tells me to do it. When I no longer feel comfortable plan Aing, when I'm frustrated and feel like LBing again. The time of this is still to be decided as I have some plan A in me yet. I do not have the full comprehension of what went wrong in my marriage and if I was the one who caused it, therefore I cannot walk away just yet - and this truly is for me and I can see how it is so. <p>I wish I could access Harley counselling, but I enquired some time ago and it will cost me a small fortune mainly because of the phone bill and the exchange rate. I do have a counsellor, but most of my support is you guys, books, God and my own busy brain. <p>As far as new hobbies are concerned though I booked another dive. I will soon know what its like to be in a big fish tank. I'm going to dive the Manly Aqurium. They have big sharks, manta rays and loggerhead turtles - which I get to play with... yay!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

I believe one reason to continue SF ( as long as you still feel good about it, pun intended,) is that it lets him make deposits in your Love Bank. And from your posts of last week, you need it. <p>As for all the rest, Forgiver is right. Time. . . .will tell. Take a week to week and month to month view. Don't worry about trying to figure out day to day. It doesn't ever seem to work.
SS

Thanks SS, I think my 'ego' is impatient but my 'heart' is willing to wait. I struggle with this each day. My heart will wait much longer for him, but I know it can not be indefinitely, so does my heart.<p>He did deposit LB$ for me, he does each time we see each other. I'm pretty sure its the same for him, but who knows while he's in this state?<p>I will just continue on as I am, and try to keep a bit busier and do fun things - like swimming with sharks - its less scary than dealing with aliens, let me tell you.

As usual I will post on GQII as I want opinions. <p>The plan A is going well, but I'm thinking that before I move to plan B (which I do still feel is sometime away) that I be suggesting to H that we go to marriage counselling.<p>I'll remind you that he is still unsure whether to commit to the marriage although he said he does have 'feelings' for me still, he is still in contact with OW but denies it and denies that he is 'in love' or that it is an affair. <p>We did attend counselling together before I 'found out'. This was a bad experience as H did not reveal the affair and told the counsellor all he wanted to hear. The counsellor quickly came to the conclusion that it was 'my problem'. Hence my H told me after he moved out that he did not need counselling as he had his mates to help him. I've not brought it up since and I am attending Individual Counselling about once per month, but doing lots of my own homework.<p>As plan A has had a ok results in the last few weeks, do you think I should bring up the subject again? Will it help if he is still in denial about the affair. Should I just continue my plan A and suggest it just before I am ready for plan B? I feel that whether we stay together or split up we should have counselling together. <p>What are other's experiences? Maybe I could test the water with him? <p>Considering my past experience with couple counselling I'm a bit hesitant but I will be 'screening' the counsellor before I attend to make sure that they are for saving my marriage and are willing to probe.<p>Note I do not live in US so can't attend Harley's (although I wish I could).

Be patience and give it some more time ... get busy swimming w/ those sharks [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .About Harley's, yes could do it but I guess the rate will be expensive compare to where you live. There is about 13 hours different ... Steve or Jennifer starts at 6:00AM. -RH-

Yes, you're right, I forgot the BS mantra, "WAIT".<p>Only 11 days till I swim with the Sharks again!

Hi Seahorse, <p>Counseling ? <p>Having a 3rd party (counselor) involved almost always helps. ( But it sounds like you got burnt the first time.) <p>Yes, I believe you should bring it up with H. If he says he doesn't need help, tell him that you do, and you want him to come and help you. ( 2 long got his wife to start that way.) At the least, he may open up, and tell a counselor what problems he had with you in the beginning. It would give you more to run your plan A with. <p>You have already told him you are trying to change and improve, if you bring that up, and say that you believe a counselor can help you improve more quickly, he may go for it. No counselor worth anything will consider that things are all your fault, and will give him homework too. <p>I haven't detected that bad hurt in your posts for a while.
We know you have sad times, but you SEEM to be holding up well. Are you OK? <p>Finally, it sounds like your talks with him have some positive elements. Hope it gets better and better. <p>SS

Hi SS, just taking it day by day. Feeling what I feel and move on. Alternate between indifference and non-indifference. Living my life... <p>9 days till I swim with sharks again!

No real update. No news from H. Just the usual up and down.<p>Doing my motor bike learner's permit this weekend, and just generally nurturing myself, while I wait...<p>7 days till the sharks!

Liz - tell me if I have this right:<p>swimming with sharks, bellydancing, motor bikes<p>Hmmmmmmm.<p>Please don't add sky diving?<p> [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>WAT

Why not WAT? I've never wanted to do that until now. It seems that I've taken the attitude that there is nothing more painful now - except maybe falling off a motor bike going 100km/h in shorts. Nothing can hurt me more than I've been hurt, except if h actually leaves or gets this woman pregnant.<p>I hada FANTASTIC time at my bike course - I haven't got my learners yet, he says I need more tuition, which is fine by me because I get to ride the bike again!! I didn't have a stax, but I did drop the bike twice and kept forgetting to turn the fuel on. The instructor did not look impressed.<p>I'm sad today about my situation with H, but I'm trying to let it go. It hurts to know that once you knew that someone loved you, and overnight its gone. I'm very tired too as I'm having trouble getting to sleep at night - maybe that's why I'm struggling today.<p>I've realised that the new hobbies I've taken up are not only fun, but if my H dosen't come back its a great way to meet guys. I wish my H was there with me though. He'd love to be riding a motor bike around, we'd have so much fun together. But its not meant to be.<p>I'm supposed to see him Wednesday night for dinner, but I guess I'll have to wait and see if it goes ahead. Sent him a quick email re this today and told him I miss him. He hasn't replied, he's either busy at work, or dosen't give a ****. Oh well, that's the BS' life in limbo.

Big trust session today. H is collecting car for a business trip and is going into the house alone. I removed specific documents and the cheque books, but its still hard.<p>Guess this is all part of the journey. Been on a backward slide the last few days, but know I will put through and be one the way forward again in no time. <p>5 days to the sharks...<p>Update re this. H called asked me where the 'dirty' videos were (one of them was Asian girls). I said I had them aside and wanted to speak to him about it. I told him that no matter how much I change, there are somethings I can never be: one of them being an Asian. I said that I was not judging him on the videos or on his preferences, but that he needed to be honest with me about these things. I asked him if there was any point in us going through what we are, if I am not what he wants. He said I was a nice girl and he liked me a lot (what the f--- is this ****? - foggy), but he needed space, he kept deviating off the real question, but I kept brining him back to it. I told him that obviously this was a big fantasy and that he had gone to live it in Thailand with at least one person (OW). I told him that no matter how much I love him or want to work on our marriage that there is no way I will take him back while he is seeing another person. I said there can only be two people in our marriage no matter how much I want him back or love him. <p>I said that I respected his need for space, I respected his choices in life, but he cannot string me along forever. I told him that in the end it is his choice, and I will live with it. <p>He told me that when we had been together he was scared because I was different. I told him that this is me now. I told him I would get the videos back to him and what he did with his life was his business not mine.<p>Did I do ok? Can I have some feedback? I feel sick, this was really hard for me as I felt I was laying it on the line. But either way I was going to talk to him about the videos. I am so tired now. I am really drained. I haven't slept well for ages and I feel like crying. Someone tell me if I'm doing this right.<p>[ May 27, 2002: Message edited by: Seahorse ]</p>

OK Having a big vent - see my post above re this. <p>Am I kidding myself. Is there really hope in this situation? I am on a big backslide right now and I'm feeling down as ever. Sitting at work crying about this.<p>I know part of this is because I'm so tired, but once I get into bed, my mind races. <p>Yesterday I spoke to a friend and she asked how things were going with H. Told her, she said, yes but you know it is over, don't you? She said that there was no way we could get back together that H had done the dirty and that there was no hope that I couldn't go back to it and we couldn't work it out. I felt very donw after this. This person has been through what I've been through, but didn't work on her marriage, she left.<p>But what if I'm the only person who can't see what others can. What if I'm the only one who thinks this marriage is worth saving. What if H dosen't? What then? Then I relieve the grief all over again, then I go through this horrible situation all over again, but for real this time.<p>I mean, he said today, "I'm a nice girl and he likes me" but that's not good enough. I'm a nice girl and he likes me is not I love you I want to spend the rest of my life with you. I am willing to give up the OW for you, is it?<p>One day I was my husband's princess and he loved me,the next day our marriage meant nothing and he likes me - how can this be? Either he was lying before or he is lying now. Which is it?<p>I've got another four months of this and I'm not sure if I can take it. I told him I would give him six months but what if I cannot. I need help to get this into perspective, but right now, I'm so tired, that my mind is barely functioning other than to be pessimistic.<p>I want to hang in there, hang on and get through this, but todays exchange has left me with little hope really. Yet we have dinner tomorrow night, but why string me along if he dosen't love me. This is ****ing tough to get through. I feel like screaming!

Seahorse, this is 'coaster of your life. This is the hardest part of this journey, slow torture like Chinese water torture. We as a BS do our best that's all we can do. You do great on your plan A, your H recognized it. Now you are in a holding pattern until either your H wakes up from the fog or you have to go to plan B. In any case, do not let H disrespect you, set the boundry and push back ... w/ no LB !!!. The same way we try to stop 5 years old kid trying to bargain for a candy. Be strong, be loving yet not giving up. Your H is in and out the fog and usually they bargain on how long and how much to could cling on their fantasy and addiction.<p>Your freind means well but you have to give your best out, not only for H but for your self !. It will be part of your healing process, you could move on w/ peace at heart knowing you have done your part. Only you know when it is time. Some WS call us in the fog ... specially those on TOW.<p>Try skydiving [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ... <p>Yesterday, I am stepping out of my comfort zone. We have a huge Carnival here in SF and OM play in one of the stage. I snoop OM, I never have his picture, I need one for my "package" to my 2D. I went out and took several close up pictures of him w/ tele. Then since I am have time to waste ... I am joining the parade !, literally. I have my camera gears and look like an offical photographer ... the security and police let me in and out and in the middle of the parade. (so much talk about security !). I burned rools of film on ... beautiful outfits, colorfull ones and barely clothes ones [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] !. Most of them post for my camera, close-up, ... too bad we don't have place to post pictures but then again this is MB some of them are R-rated. [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] . I am afraid of height to try skydiving and too afraid in the confined mask of scuba in the open sea, I have my own fun [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Take care -RH-<p>I found the link to the website. You might see me holding camera in the middle of the street [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>[ May 28, 2002: Message edited by: redhat ]</p>

Seahorse,<p>For what it is worth, I think you did fine. You set your boundaries and in a calm and clear manner laid it all out before him. He can't accuse you of not providing a clear explanation. <p>Now the onis is on him and that is where it should be. <p>Redhat,
U bad boy!!! LOL! 2nd job as a photographer? Hm...... U R way too funny. <p>Take care,
L.

Orchid,<p>I might try PI ... LOL !!!, let me know if you need a gumshoe help around bayarea [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>You better get some sleep, you don't want to mess up some one's payroll ... -RH-