Yep I got what both of you said. There's ups and downs, move on, don't beat yourself up. I'm only human I guess and will take two steps forward and one back every now and then. <p>RH- Inlaws do not know about the affair. I want to tell them, but am hesitant to. I know FIL suspects an affair. I'm waiting for the right opportunity to 'matter of factly' tell them.<p>The bad news was today I cried at mums grave and was a mess for most of the day. I think I really worried my dad a fair bit actually.<p>The good news was that H called me for lunch. So I saw him twice in one weekend!<p>We had a good afternoon. He's still a bit foggy - won't let me drive him home, etc, I don't push it. Its not such a big issue right now with me. We did discuss R a bit. He said he refuses to live with someone who has sex once a month. Fair enough. I said that I know things were'nt very good and I've taken responsibility for that. I said that he would have to step out of his comfort zone to improve the situation too.<p>I said I knew that he hated that I tried to control him. I told him I realised that I was making him responsible for my fun in life. I told him I was taking responsibility for these too and working on developing my own life.<p>I said the 'I love you' too. He gave me a big hug but no 'I love you' - its ok, the other stuff made up for it. Having 50% genuine H for an afternoon was a treat. <p>He said he wasn't ready to move back with me yet. I agreed that it was too soon right now and that it wouldn't help either of us just yet.<p>I think I did pretty well actually. Considering the morning I had (I took my aunt to the airport and took the wrong exit then forgot where I parked the car), the afternoon gave me a lift. I was very together, funny, suggestive and easygoing. He said that I was very different from the person he knew. I know he dosen't trust me so I've got to show him that this is me now. <p>I'm trying not to get hopes up too high - I know the fog may settle again and I half expect it too, but at least I know he's thinking about me. He's been asking a lot about the diving too. Yay, plan A is starting to work!! Thank God. <p>I'll read that Venusian, 180 thing, that might be good to throw in just a little variation.<p>Wow, new floors for WAT, new windows for RH, plus your EN extrodinaires -you really are all rounders aren't you?

Seahorse,<p>Keep up the good work -- when you and H have fun together, you deposit LB$. Remember what my H said in his post about wanting to make me be horrible to him so he could be justified in what he was doing. That sounds like your H's behavior at the party -- if you are really mean to him at the party, then he will get sympathy from everyone and will be able to say, "see how she treats me, its no wonder I had an A." This is what he can say to himself also. But, when you Plan A, he doesn't have those excuses. Then he probably just feels even worse about himself. Like, have you ever done something mean and then the person you did it too was really nice and that made you want to hate them more. Well, you didn't really hate them, you hated yourself. <p>Anyway, you seem to be in a little better frame of mind. Keep you mind focused on these good times whenever you get down. <p>FHO

Thanks FHO, When I saw H we talked a bit about R and M. He was picking out things like "you had a bit of extra weight on" and "you said these things about my parents". I just listened and resisted the urge to defend myself, which is really hard when your being attacked by someone you love. I told him I can't change the past but can work on the future. He has sent me this email:<p>Good morning SH, Another gloriuos day weather-wise in Sydney today, a bit cooler this
morning. <p>Thanks for your time yesterday with lunch and drinks at the beach, I really
enjoyed it!<p>Let me know when you want to get out in the garden for our major hacking session. Are you planning to do it this Saturday? Maybe a lunch and dinner and fun will follow.<p>I understand how difficult a day it was for you yesterday, Mothers Day. Keep it up, if you need to talk you can always call me.<p>WS<p>This is about 60% H which I think is positive. I know right now that I have to plan A consistently and keep reassuring him, keep working on me. <p>I was thinking I might plan a 180 weeked soon too though. I was reading Venusian lady post and it seems to suggest that I don't want him to get too confortable. I let you know the results.<p>Thanks for the insight into WS behaviour to both you FHO and your wonderful H. It helps when you keep getting reminded to not take what they do personally, otherwise it can be devastating.<p>I must say, I needed this from him to keep going, if he does become foggy again, it will get me through. <p>Now, I have to go plan the fun bit for Saturday night [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Ok Help, I'll post on GQII so someone sees this. I just received his mobile bill. This guy wants to be found out, he hasn't changed the address. It goes to 7th may, and there is lots of contact with Thailand and here. I picked a number and rung it in Oz and it was her.<p>Help, what do I do. I'm in shock. I knew it would be so but it dosen't make it any easier.<p>Help, I don't know what to do. I will take a copy of the bill and seal it again and give it to him. <p>Do I keep plan Aing to my date (July) or do I tell him again no contact. That is a condition. He hasn't really committed yet to working on marriage. i know he still dosen't trust me. Its just I'm so mad, so disapointed. <p>I'm trebling.<p>I didn't tell her it was me, she's so stupid, she told me exactly who she was. Maybe he's lying to her again. Saying its over.<p>Man I am so pissed off I feel like ringing now and breaking off saturday's date. <p>I won't do anything until I relax but some opinions would be appreciated.

Seahorse,<p>This doesn't change anything. You know he is still in the fog. If you bring it up, it will be a huge LB. By the e-mail he sent you, he is seeing some changes and enjoyed spending time with you. If you attack him about this, he will say to himself, "See, I knew you were just pretending to be nice to get me back and then once I got caught up again, everything went back to the way it used to be."<p>If you cannot take it anymore, then go to Plan B, but do not do this until you are absolutely sure you are ready -- no emotional reaction. My other advice is that if the snooping is too devestating for you, stop doing it. I know that everytime I snooped, I was so incredibly hurt at what I found. It was like someone stuck a sword through my middle and was sawing it back and forth. I stopped snooping because it was too hard. You know your H is still deep in the fog. Deposit some more LB$, then if you go to Plan B, you must do it in a calm manner -- with no emotional outbursts. Don't accuse him of anything (I know this will be hard, but the last image you want him to remember is how wonderful and caring you are). <p>IMHO, I don't think this phone bill changes anything -- you knew he was more than likely in contact, right? I know it REALLY, REALLY, REALLY hurts. This is where you have to be strong. Plan something great for the weekend -- something your H likes to do. Maybe something that brings back old memories of the good times -- I know when your WS is in the fog, he says that everything about the marriage was terrible -- they rewrite history -- but this is not the truth. Try to revive some of those memories, very subtly, nothing overt. Think back to when you were dating -- what did you do, what did you wear, what perfume did you use, etc. Do these things to stir up memories.<p>Hang in there, Seahorse. It sounds like your Plan A is beginning to have an effect -- don't backslide and undo the great work you have done. Stay strong -- you can do it. You and Forgiver were my inspiration when I first started coming here.<p>I believe you are strong enought to persevere.<p>FHO

(((SEAHORSE)))<p>
COme on girl! We have to hold each other up here. You knew he was probably still in contact. I know my H is in contact but I do not bring it up. I keep acting aloof and calm around my H. Make suggestions of things to do and let the ideas fall where they may. <p> I can tell he is crawling out of his skin. He probably just wants to say "It's over. I'm leaving." And go running out the door. But I dragged it out last night. I went to 2 hrs of KB I was tired and was not about to end my M in such an exhausted state of mind. So I took a shower watched some TV and went to bed. He slept ont he couch.<p> I have a meeting after school. SO I do not know what time i will be home. I am prepared for a 15 minute conversation with him leaving for his mom's amnd then him fleeing the country within the week. I could be totally wrong. I am getting a bit confused with what exactly I am suppossed to do or say. One moment I get the feeling I am suppossed to end it that I am being a doormat. But if I am not seeing him, I am not a doormat. Then I get the feeling i am suppossed to laty it ont eh line that I want to work it out but as long as it continues my love gets drained. I woudl think that would make it easier for him- which I do not want to do. <p> He may think, if I carry this out long enough, she will fall out of love and file. But I cant's do that because I still believe it will end and besides I don't want to lose my house. <p> Thanks for your help Seahorse. I really need you. The fact that your situation sounds better gives me hope. Thanks.
Forgiver

Thanks FHO and Forgiver, I'm a bit down this morning, should have drunk more water and less port.<p>I won't say anything to him, I'll just continue as normal. Thank goodness I don't have to see him till the weekend - it gives me time to regroup.<p>I knew the contact was still happening, I guess in the back of your mind you hope its not, especially when he starts to act normally.<p>I don't normally snoop, but I am keeping this bills as evidence for when I need them if I need them. <p>In some way, the confirmation hurts, but I still stand by what I said. If he really thinks she will make him happy he should go and be with her. They can have each other. It will hurt but I will survive, I've proven that. <p>Forgiver, I am thinking about you and the situation all the time now, I believe he dosen't know what he wants. I know they don't deserve it but in a way I feel sorry for them because they know they are screwing up their lives. H said that on the weekend, he said that if we didn't get back together he knew it would be his loss. I couldn't believe it. But again, I don't get my hopes up as it could be only a temporary thinning of the fog.

Seahorse -- I know just where you are on the cell phone. I hadn't been snooping for a while and then looked at a receipt from his pants pocket when he came over one Sunday/we were going for a bike ride. It was for a coffee shop near the OW's apartment THAT morning. I kept it in check all day and then asked that afternoon whether he had seen her that weekend and he said no. I told him that I knew he was lying. It was awful.<p>My new approach now is that I am not going to snoop at all. It hurts me way too much. It makes me LB and it makes him panic. This has helped a bit/he is calling more. It helps that he is not in the house sometimes (it lets me calm down) and other times it's awful because he's out of the house my mind just runs wild with all kind of weird thoughts about what he is or is not doing.<p>So, my advice (albiet not the most wise as I'm new at this too) is to not snoop if you cannot keep yourself from confronting him. I know I can't because it just hurts so much. There is a great post over on General QII from Bramble Rose about whether we all want to be right or want to be married. My problem has always been wanting to be right. I think the snooping is a part of that and my confronting him is a part of that too and consequently it pushes him away. <p>Yes, it hurts that they are still in contact. I hope somebody comes on here and gives you some tried and true advice on this. <p>Keep up your plans and try not to fixate on the cell phone bill. It will just make you nuts (not that we're not all already a bit nuts as a result of all of this).

"Steady she goes "<p>"She's taking on water captain" <p>"Man the pumps, Hold the course"<p>Seahorse, you are a true MB'er, you'll make it. <p>Someday all this pain will only be a distant memory. I don't know what the outcome will be - but YOU WILL be doing great. I know it. <p>SS

Seahorse,<p>I agree with SS. You are stronger because of this experience. Remember that it is how we react to the situations that life challenges us with that truly defines us. You have grown from this experience and become a better person -- that is turning a negative into a positive. <p>Plan something fun for the weekend with your H. Don't think about the rest of what is happening. Pretend the OW doesn't exist. Keep you message consistent -- your words and actions should match. You have told your H that you are a better person than you were and have grown; you don't want to go back to your old M; you have learned a lot about your own needs and how to meet his; etc. Don't blow it all by LBing. This will show him that you don't really mean what you say. <p>I know you can do it. Vent, vent, vent in here. None of this is fair and it is a shame that we (BSs) have to go through this. But look on the bright side -- without going through this, you wouldn't have learned all that you have. I think about this a lot. You know, if I could go back in time and undo everything (my H really wishes he could) would I? I have to answer no, because I have learned so much. Both my H and I have. We have really grown -- I guess that sometimes we can only grow through pain (remember growing pains from when you were a child -- I used to get leg cramps all the time). <p>Let us know how things are going -- we are here for you.<p>FHO

Big Vent coming up...<p>Hi SS and FHO, Thanks for your support. This week has been tough. I still feel the effects of loosing mum (naturally), I'm upset there is still contact (even though I knew it would be so) and work has been pushing me - but I'm realising I've got to stand up for myself or they will keep doing it. I've started, you just think they'd be a little more understanding?<p>I'm thinking of telling H to change the address of his phone account so I won't be tempted to open any of these bills. I don't need any more proof, even legally, do I? <p>I hope this is all part of the rollercoaster. I was going really well, but maybe I expect to much of myself - I've just lost mum. See, I've never lost anyone close before, so I do know what to expect. I printed some stuff from the net last night. I'll read it later. Grief from death is quite different from grief from loss (eg of H). In fact, the death grief is more peaceful (yet sad), while the loss makes me angry.<p>Yep I'm angry right now. Angry I'v been deserted by two people at times when I needed them. I know it sounds absurd, but thats how I feel, I'm just riding through it. I'm angry that life has given me this, I alternate between accepting it and being really mad.<p>I feel like I'm constantly waiting for more bad news. I'm waiting for another loss, I just know in my bones that something else is coming, I just don't know what. I don't know what to do to get rid of this awful feeling and its weighing heavy. What if its my job, or my dog, what if its dad?<p>When I get home tonight I'm going to have a spa, do a facial and relax, I can feel myself getting worked up. I've been slack with my meditation, I know that's not helping either.<p>I think the basis of all this is that this week I've got scared. I'm frightened of the future and what it will hold. I've lost a little bit of confidence in myself since mum's funeral. <p>I've got to stop this or I'll go crazy. Thanks for letting me vent here. Its good to know I can say how I feel.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I feel like I'm constantly waiting for more bad news. I'm waiting for another loss, I just know in my bones that something else is coming, I just don't know what. I don't know what to do to get rid of this awful feeling and its weighing heavy. What if its my job, or my dog, what if its dad? <hr></blockquote><p>These feelings come to all of us. No one that I have known has ever been without them for very long - including myself. ( I am 46) <p>They are not always correct. Sometimes I feel it in my bones too, but nothing bad ever happens. <p>Let them go. Just do what you said, and let them go.
See you tomorrow.
SS

SH,<p>SS has some excellent advice. I still am waiting for another shoe to drop. Sometimes I think it would just be a relief if it happened (I don't know what it would be -- perhaps contact between OW & H, etc.). <p>Keep venting in here. All of these feelings are natural. Sometimes I too get really angry at what this has done to me. I feel I have lost some innocence and am mad that my Hs actions have made me lose this faith. Faith in wedding vows. A belief in true love and happily ever after (a reality based happily ever after, with problems, etc.). But, that is just one side of the coin. As I said in a prior post, think of all I have gained. Knowledge, insight, understanding, compassion, patience -- all to a new level.<p>Keep posting -- we understand. Regarding the phone bill, I don't know any of the laws in Australia, so don't know if what you have is enough. Double check with an attorney. Then, if what you have is enough, change the address -- you don't need any additional triggers.<p>Hang in there. What do you have planned for the WE?<p>FHO

Seahorse,<p>I just wanted you to know I am keeping up with your situation.......sorry it is so hard right now.<p>Yes the snooping always caused me pain, too, but I didn't stop doing it......I HAD to know. Now, when there is no hope of my marriage being saved, those things I found actually give me a sense of peace about divorcing my H. NOT that I am suggesting that to you. It is just that he was so deceitful, and yes, I believe he also wanted to get caught.<p>Anyway, you are doing very well with Plan A, and the others who gave you advice about moving to Plan B are right on the button, too.<p>Take care friend,<p>Love and light,<p>Jacky

Hi Guys, thanks for your support with this. I think my feeling this way is part of the grieving process and it will just take time. I'm trying to keep my sense of humor. <p>For the weekend: He promised he would help with pruning the garden, and he wants dinner and 'fun'. <p>In my current state of mind and after the phone bill I'm struggling to not cancel with him, but the only real thing that has changed is my confirmation of contact, so I have to make sure I'm 'business as usual' and keep plan Aing. I'll be me.<p>I'm thinking a nice quiet romantic dinner and then safe sex. (Whether I'm back with him or start a new relationship with someone else eventually I have to learn about it, so may as well start now).<p>I'm still trying to decide on the outfit and maybe I can try some of my bellydance moves on him. Nothing too 'out there' don't want to scare the poor lad.<p>I hope he dosen't cancel on me, it does sound fun. I'll keep you updated.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Seahorse:
<strong>maybe I can try some of my bellydance moves on him. Nothing too 'out there' don't want to scare the poor lad.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Dare we ask for an update?

Well, I'll tell you some of it, but not everything!!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>H was a bit foggy today. He arrived very late and we only got some of the gardening done. He's doing this so we can sell the house.<p>This frightens me. I want to move, but in my own time I don't want to be pushed. And what if he's just being nice to me so I sell or because mum died. How do I know he's for real anymore?<p>I asked myself this all the time he was here, all the time he talked about his job [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] . I tried to put the phone bill out of my mind (did you know he saw her on the day of the funeral, he told me he had a meeting at 3.30 and had to go, but the phone bill shows it was her he was meeting) [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] . I'm going to tell him to change the address so I don't have to see them anymore.<p>Anyway, things progressed very nicely after that, but I had to do all the work (to get us to the bedroom, after that it was smooth sailing!!! [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] ).<p>Afterwards he was different. He gave me a really nice hug, a bear hug and he gave it to me - I didn't solicit it. I gave him a back rub and made dinner. Then he went. Apparently home to watch the football, but I don't believe it - he's gone to see her. I don't know that for sure, but...<p>If he's less foggy after you are fullfilling ENs does this mean your on the right track? <p>This is really hard work. A lot of input for little return. I must still love him, mustn't I?<p>I've got so much to work out, to think about. <p>So it seemed to turn out OK. Not the passion I'd hoped for but it was nice. I asked him if he'd like it if I danced for him -he goes to a restaurant called Men's gallery a lot, where they have this, but he says that he goes there to talk to friends. Why go then? He said he didn't need me to dance for him because he's a simple guy really. Is he trying to trick me? Does he just want boring sex, because I don't. That's what got us into this mess, boring sex = no sex = A.<p>How does this change if we ever get to recovery? He has said all thru our M that he is the way he is and won't change.

Liz, if you didn't LB on this "date", then you did wonderfully.<p>No one can tell why he's being nice, or what he thinks after your roll in the hay - he's probably just as confused as you are.<p>(the following is best read with a US southern drawl) We have a saying in the south east U.S. that sorta applies to this situation. "He's a turtle on a fence post." We don't know how in the heck he got there, but we dern sure know he had some help. <p>We usually apply this to folks who acquire more than they seem capable of, but I guess it can apply to fog bound alien abductees, as well. The "help" they're getting is the influence of the OP. But just like the ladder climber who doesn't really stack up, the "help" is only temporary - and has done them no favors in the long run - and failure is eventualy bound to happen.<p>I still think you're doing wonderfully. I wouldn't be surprised if his current motive for helping you at the house is for selling considerations. Remember, the WS's top priority is the WS. The BS is WAY down the list. This is a fact of life in affairs. Otherwise, affairs wouldn't happen.<p>Sooner or later - assuming he doesn't wake up - you won't be able to accomplish what you described above during your recent interactions. When you detect this burn-out coming, it's time for Plan B. Try real hard though, to see this coming so your transition to Plan B comes on the heels of a pristine Plan A finish. The transition is the only moment that you should assume that Plan A/B is for the WS. This is when you get to pull the rug out from under them. Afterwards, they're on a very high fence post and to get down, they have to jump.<p>WAT

Hi Seahorse!<p> Just checking in and trying to catch up. It sounds like you are doing better, but still unsure. I can understand.<p> I'm glad you got to spend some time with your h and it does not seem as painful to be around each other as it was for me. At least your H is willing to do something with you like work on the house. This difusses the situation and keeps you near each other but occupied. But as WAT said remember, your H is looking out for himself and fixing up the house brings him closer to selling and getting his share and moving. If you are not ready to leave than stall. you need to be reay to move on and not be pushed out like you said. If you can stay and you want to stay then do so. your home is your safety, your comfort zone. Unless it is too painful or you can not financially handle it I think you should stay. I remember reading not to do anything drastic when this is going on if you can help it. Moving is pretty drastic and you deserve some stability.<p> i know you have your need for SF. Believe me so do I. But I was reading (not that I agree with everything I read) a book entitled When the One You Love Wants To Leave". The author explains that H can be pulled out of a M by an OW- like our H's. They can be pushed out by their own wives behavior or they can be put out by their wives because of their own behavior. Our H's have been pulled out by OW which is the most common reason for H's leaving. It says that often they are not leaving a bad relationship to go and be alone. They are trading one realtionship for another. it is their BS that are left alone which makes our position the most difficult. Our h's can not understand why we are so devestated. They think they are being noble and sparing us any further pain by releasing us to find someone new. They are fine with this because they have found someone new. They think we are unreasonable and too emotional. When in fact they are being completely ruled by their emotions, they just don't realize it.<p> Another thing that was suggested was that there not be any SF. Not that i agree, i am guilty of using sex as a manipulation myself. However their reasoning was that by continuig to have sex, it just continues to make the situation fuzzy. They are being cakeeaters and then the BS tries toread into it. Well if he's willing then he might still want me. But actually, he is being selfish. So they suggest no sex to bring H to realization that he can't have it all. Just a thought.<p> Hang in there. I know you can do it. I'll check back later.
Forgiver

Hi Seahorse,<p>I had to jump in here, regarding the sex issue. <p>My stbx was living with his first (well first I KNEW of) OW, he was coming home on weekends and having sex with me. When I found out, I asked him why he did that. His reply "Because I COULD!"<p>Maake no mistake......there is a huge amount of EGO in the WS's decision to have sex with you AND OW too, especially when we KNOW about OW, and let them have their way anyhow. WOW, he thinks........TWO women want me!!!!! I must be GOOOOOOOOOD!!!<p>I was not proud of myself for fulfilling SF when I knew about OW, in fact I felt disgusted. Add to that the fact that he LIED to me about having protection while having sex with her......and health issues etc. The supremely selfish act.<p>So, when he had second OW, and was leaving me, he asked me for sex that very morning. I said "As long as we are separated, we will never have sex again." He was FLABBERGASTED!! He couldn't understand it and tried to change my mind.<p>The outcome of this for me was that I did relinquish one of my 'weapons' in the fight to get him back, but I retained my self respect. And I also believe that he respected me more for NOT giving him SF......in the end.<p>In this and a lot of other issues, WS's have a hard time realising that 'things have changed' now. This is typical cakeman activity, and it only hurts US in the long run. Okay, not having SF with stbx did not bring him back, but for me, being USED for his ego boosting was not an option any more.<p>Hope I helped.<p>Love and light,<p>Jacky