Dear RH and Orchid, thank you for the feedback. I feel very much a newbie at the moment, even though I've been at this for four months. But I am learning and have tucked this experience away in the memory bank. <p>I have analysed it all afternoon (and cried at work too [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] ) about it. I felt it was a real turning point in plan A, I have shown him I can change, some of the new me, that I am living my life, but now I am getting to the business end of the plan - closer to plan B if required. I'm paving the way for it. I know that very soon there will be nothing left for me to show/prove/change. I'm living my life as much as possible in this 'limbo'. You're right RedHat, it is like Chinese water torture.<p>Those videos made me sad, but at least it has opened up some good dialogue with him. They enabled me to remind him that he cannot live without responsibilities in life. I watched parts of them, and I realised that the SF problem in our marriage is not all my fault. <p>You know, when I spoke with him about it, I said to him about OW, and for the first time he didn't deny it. He didn't acknowledge it either, but he certainly didn't deny anything I suggested. At least now he will be thinking and know that I am onto his scam - moving out for six months for 'space', bull****, its so he can have an affair without me knowing, but he can't fool me, I know the scam.<p>Although I know in my heart it was fog, the comment about 'you're a nice girl and I like you' really hurt the ego. I guess I have to keep reminding myself that actions speak louder than words. It can be hard sometimes.

Dear RH and Orchid, thank you for the feedback. I feel very much a newbie at the moment, even though I've been at this for four months. But I am learning and have tucked this experience away in the memory bank. <p>I have analysed it all afternoon (and cried at work too [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] ) about it. I felt it was a real turning point in plan A, I have shown him I can change, some of the new me, that I am living my life, but now I am getting to the business end of the plan - closer to plan B if required. I'm paving the way for it. I know that very soon there will be nothing left for me to show/prove/change. I'm living my life as much as possible in this 'limbo'. You're right RedHat, it is like Chinese water torture.<p>Those videos made me sad, but at least it has opened up some good dialogue with him. They enabled me to remind him that he cannot live without responsibilities in life. I watched parts of them, and I realised that the SF problem in our marriage is not all my fault. <p>You know, when I spoke with him about it, I said to him about OW, and for the first time he didn't deny it. He didn't acknowledge it either, but he certainly didn't deny anything I suggested. At least now he will be thinking and know that I am onto his scam - moving out for six months for 'space', bull****, its so he can have an affair without me knowing, but he can't fool me, I know the scam.<p>Although I know in my heart it was fog, the comment about 'you're a nice girl and I like you' really hurt the ego. I guess I have to keep reminding myself that actions speak louder than words. It can be hard sometimes.<p>Hey RedHat, saw the pictures, I'm guessing which one you are. Wow, you must have really got an eyeful through a telescopic lens!!! I love photography, I have done a short course in it, and want to do more. Maybe I will take a little rest from some of my 'extreme' activities and do some relaxing photography.

Liz - I validate your feelings after your interaction with him. If he was sure about what he wants, he wouldn't be saying those things to you.<p>About your "friend": I'll bet she's wanting you to do the same thing she did in her situation for her own reassurance. Of course, you could say the same things about us. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Regardless of what happens, in the end you will be content knowing that you tried and you'll be guilt free.<p>Be thinking about Plan B. By my criteria, you're ready, although my criteria differs a bit from strict MB guidance. Before Plan B you'll need to get all the legal stuff worked out, e.g., finances, car, home responsibilities, etc.<p>Keep up the good work.<p>Dave

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>, I have shown him I can change, some of the new me, that I am living my life, but now I am getting to the business end of the plan - closer to plan B if required.<hr></blockquote><p>Make sure that he understands you have changed to be a better wife for HIM. However we all know the changes will benifit someone else if he won't come back. Also tell him not to be afraid of you, you are a better person, not just a different one. He needs to know that. <p>Make sure you check the balance in your LB$ weekly so you can tell when you need to go to "B".<p>You have been so positive for so long, it is hard, but you are doing it. Hope something good happens Wed. to give you strength. <p>As always, we pray for you. <p>SS

Seahorse,<p>Most of BS had some fault contributing to the A but #1 The fault is not a justification of having A, it never stand. #2 There is nothing to justify betrayal of M, WS should Dv first. Don't second guessing yourself. I do too from time to time.<p>I was forced into plan B so I never have experience of choosing it but WAT and Orchid knew this one better. I have not much to say.<p>Yes, I have more than an eyefull [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] !. The link post only one R-rated nothing compare to what I got. Orchid lives in the same area and know this parade .... I don't blame her calling me a bad boy. Try underwater photography, it is beautifull ... of course not taking photo of those sharp teeth of shark [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] , take the colorfull coral reef pictures. Hope you can rent the equipment since it will make you bankrupt if you buy them, too costly. I will try the physical ones ... I will try to train for SF-LA on Skates 2003, 400+ miles roller skating from San Francisco to Los Angles [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] .

Hi everyone, thanks for the support. God knows I need it right now.<p>So we had a nice dinner - he was pretty foggy all the way though, although I seemed to be able to 'get through' to him every now and then.<p>He decided that he wanted his golf clubs and a spare TV for his flat, and his also decided that I would drive him there tonight (it takes about an hour). I told him that I didn't mind, but would appreciate it if he asked me first next time. I sensed this LB'd him, but fair enough guys, its not a ten minute drive.<p>Anyway, I guess I should be happy, becuase before tonight i did not know where he lived, and tonight I went into the apartment. So it could be he is starting to trust me, or it could be that he just needed help moving stuff. Either way, whatever.<p>When he took me in his room to dump the stuff, there was a weird doona cover on the bed, he quickly said it was his flatmates it wasn't his. I said, H it dosen't matter who it belongs to its none of my business, he continued to defend, I said that's fine, but if you have other women here, which I'm sure you do, its none of my business.<p>He said, what do you think I have lots of women over. I said that I know you've slept with at least one other.<p>So he made me a cuppa, and we watch TV for a while. I rubbed his head as he said he had a headache, he seemed to like it. I said that again, what he does while he is here is none of my business, that i am willing to let him go in the hope that he comes back. I told him that even though he had told me to see other men that I hadn't that there was only him and there would only be him while we were married and that I hoped he would come back to me to work on our marriage soon. He looked like he was tearing up and quickly jumped up and went to the kitchen.<p>After that he said he was really tired, etc, and not feeling well. I said that it was time to go anyway. He gave me a big hug.<p>He left a bag out here, (which naturally I went through but found nothing), so he said he'd meet me at work tomorrow to pick it up. I said I'd buy him lunch.<p>Anyway I left and he was less foggy. <p>I'm nearly at plan B people. I cried all the way home. Its hard to drive and sob at the same time. It is so hard to know that he is seeing other people, to know that he wants me out of the flat before his flat mates get home so they don't know he seeing me (obviously he's told them we've broken up). I am drying up, I need to think seriously about plan B now, because tonight I'm sure I lost 2 more kilos and I don't think my body can take any more.<p>This will be the single most frightening thing i ever do in my life, and I'm so scared. Why did God choose this for me? Of anyone in my life he could of taken away, why did it have to be him? When I stood in that church and took my vows I never ever thought I would be here. 6 months ago i would have thought I would be here. I've read a couple of posts about plan B and it frightens me because they say its harder than plan A and this is really hurting. <p>He said he try to come and watch me in the shark tank on Saturday, so I've got a couple of meetings to savour before I say goodbye.I don't want to be here. I hate this whole situation and I'm so distraught I'm sobbing again. I wish I could have walked away at the begining.

Seahorse,<p>Plan B is for you. For you to protect you feeling and to be stronger. Some says it is hard but many of them say it is hard in the beginning and then it is easier than plan A since you have less contact and less roller coaster.<p>You are awsome ... you still plan A'ng your H 'till the end. He will remember that night and will remember what you say. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Yes, you have to send H into plan B with a nice memorable moment.<p>You have done your best be strong what ever happen it is only make you stronger. This journey opens our eyes to see and be educated about how to care & protect our next relationship ... we still hope it is our SO and we should still pray about it but THY WILL BE DONE. Just know that our Lord never forsake us and will bless us with fullfiling M ... w/ or w/o SO. AMEN.<p>God Bless you -RH-

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> This will be the single most frightening thing i ever do in my life, and I'm so scared. Why did God choose this for me? <hr></blockquote><p>Our problems either break us down or make us stronger. Few of us ever know why until much later in our lives. I believe you will come out of this stronger. But saying that doesn't make it easy to handle it. You just have to get through each hour and day on its own. Think back on what you have been through, and what you have learned, what you have become. You ARE better already. You cannot deny that. You will make it - always. <p>SS

I'm in full on grief mode and have been all night. I will see him today to take the bag to him. <p>I know this is all part of the process. I read a book that said the reason you keep going through the stages of grief is because its too enormous to do all at once. The bigger the loss, the longer it will take, and the more times you will go through the steps.<p>I feel like I have truly lost him. <p>I know that he seems to show affection, but I can't see how it will translate to him coming back to me. <p>I don't want to go into plan B preparing for divorce. I want my marriage, I don't want to send the message to him that I'm preparing for divorce. How do I plan B and do that? I've got to work out something that I am comfortable with, something I can live with and still makes him end the marriage if he wants to. If I take steps that lead to the end of my marriage I will never forgive myself. I cannot do it.<p>I need to think this through. I am in no rush. Its not somethings I really want to do, but I do know its something I have to do.<p>I'm sorry I am so morbid on this forum of late. I'm not always like this, but the people that helped me after I found out are angry with my H now. My dad dosen't understand, he dosen't like him anymore and wants me to move on. I have tried to explain to him, but everytime I talk about H he gets angry and changes the subject. There are not many people around who think he's worth it.<p>So I come here to get it all out, and usually feel better.<p>I will take it easy today, I'm still looking forward to my swim with sharks on Saturday - it will take my mind off this for a day. I have tried u/water photograhy with the disposables RedHat, but find that the light usually isn't strong enough and the photos turn out with a blue hue. When I did my open water certification they had cameras you could hire, they were really good, but becuse I had to do skills they wouldn't let me hire one.<p>I'm hoping that the aquarium will let me take the disposable into the tank on Saturday, but I'm not sure. I know I get one digital photo as part of the cost, so will try to post it somewhere for all to see.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Seahorse:
<strong>I don't want to go into plan B preparing for divorce. I want my marriage, I don't want to send the message to him that I'm preparing for divorce. How do I plan B and do that? </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Liz - IMHO, Plan B has nothing to do with divorce and everything to do with trying to save your marriage. It's what you do to KEEP from going straight to divorce when you feel there's no chance!!! IT'S AN ALTERNATIVE TO AN IMMEDIATE DIVORCE!! And it fits with your rational desire to not make the divorce decision yourself.<p>Understand?<p>Re-read the SAA section on Plan B. Read the stuff in the Notable Posts. OK?<p>I shared the same desire to not be the one making the divorce decisions and Plan B helped for me. Today, I'm guilt free about the destruction of my marriage. Hopefully, you'll get to recovery and this won't be an issue. But it may take Plan B to get there as well.

(((((Seahorse)))))))<p> Sorry I have not been around but I have been living in my own nightmare. My H is so cold and detatched he actually recoils if we accidentially brush against each other. Did I tell you the last time i was home I accidentially got gasoline in my eyes and my H just said "Go wash your eyes out, I finish putting the gas in!" I could not see!! I was in so much pain I had to find my way to the house and then the sink. He never came in to help (I thought I was going to have to go to the hospital) He never asked how I was. It sickens me, he could treat me this way.<p> But that's enough about my crap. Your H seems to be softening but he is being a cake-eater you know. Plan B while you still have the love. Or let your love run out (I think tha'st what I did). I am not having sucha hard time with plan B because it is like my H is back in school and I can go on with my life. We were apart for 120 days throughout this A. He came home. We were together 11 days. Not even 11 days straight. The first block of 7 days. then 2 days and he left, then last tuesday and Wednesday and he left. In those 11 days I saw such a cold person with so many unaddressed problems I lost my hope. I lost my love. I now realize how much I can take and how long I am willing to wait.<p> Go to plan B when you feel it. i think I felt it too late. But it looks like you need to do it soon.<p> About the diving. That's AWESOME!! Underwater photography happened to be my H's main hobby. The reason the disposable camera and any UW pictires are all blue is because of a lack of a strobe. Underwater there are tons of particles in the water. When a flash goes off it reflects off the particles so you see blue pictures with flecks of stuuf throughout and maybe a dark shape in the background. UW photos require lighting which you attatch to the front of your camers. There are also macro lenses that alow youto take pictures of small flora and fauna with great detail. It is very interseting and very fun. Unfortunately my H took all of out photography equipment. But I will buy my own. You should too. It is expensive but well worth it. The walls of out house are adorned with several of our photographs. It is a great hobby. I highly recommend it. We had Sea&Sea equipment. Check them out.
Forgiver

Hi Forgiver, WAT, Redhat, SS, and all, <p>Forgiver, I read your post on your thread, please don't go!<p>I am having fun with my diving and went into the shark tank at Manly Aquarium yesterday. The sharks are BIG - like over 2mtrs big!!! They have sting rays, giant turtles and jewfish. It was fantastic. Very cold, but absolutely fantastic. <p>I have decided to book a holiday to Vanuatu in September where I will do my advanced cert. I would like to buy a camera and will check out second hand equipment. Can you buy the lights separately Forgiver?<p>H came along, he took some photos from the tunnel. He stayed around and we had lunch near his house.<p>He was very open and we had really good discussions. He told me he had tried cocaine, which worried me, but its his life, who am I to judge? I don't like it, I worry about him doing that, but he opened up to me. He said he tried it once. He's lucky he is not dead. I told him if I found out he was using it regularly or dealing it, I would tell the police.<p>We discussed issues about sex (the frequency is not good, but he says the quality is good [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I told him he would have to be willing to try new things, but i wouldn't ask him to do anything he wasn't comfortable with - he was open to this.<p>We discussed my independence - he is pleased that I am living my own life - he says I was too clingy. He's right.<p>We discussed me listening to him, he says I'm better at it. I think I am, but I've still got some way to go.<p>He said he was jealous when he saw me with the diving guys (they bought me lunch - part of the cost of the dive). I thought that was a good sign.<p>We watched the soccer for a while, but eventually he said he wanted to leave. I asked him why, if he was seeing her (I know, I know). I said he would have to choose. I told him I love him and want to be with him, but will not tolerate any other woman. He wasn't impressed. He said he hasn't been in contact 'for some while'. hmmmm<p>He rang me when I got home. I said I was glad as I felt bad about what I had said. I explained that I was scared to trust him. He said he understood. We finished on a good note.<p>I will keep going with plan A for a while longer. I will know when it is time to plan B. I am scared of it, but I know it may be necessary. Do I need proof of the affair to go to plan B?

BTW, I forgot to add - I mentioned something to WH re if we decide to work on our m. He said "I thought we were already?" <p>Weird huh?<p>I will keep plan Aing, monitor, plan for B, get myself ready. I still hope I don't have to B...

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Seahorse:
<strong>Do I need proof of the affair to go to plan B?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Absolutely not - if you mean proof that it occured. If you mean proof that it's continuing, no again - but your Plan B letter needs to differentiate exactly what you want.<p>As a point of detail, you go to Plan B when your spouse has not committed to work on the marriage, you're having difficulty holding back on the LBs (your love bank is low), and you're physically separated. Note that this does NOT include anything about whether the affair is still in progress. As it turns out, most of the time, not being committed to the marriage and the continuation of an affair are concurrent. The point being that, as maybe in your case, your H has stopped contact, but is betwixt and between, and for all practical purposes, an "affair" is still preventing your recovery. Does this make sense?<p>Dave

Hi Dave, I think maybe I have the wrong idea of plan B, I understood it was to end the affair, as well as prevent BS falling out of love, I leant my copy of SAA to someone in a similar situation I will get it back soon - I'm in no hurry to B, as I don't feel it necessary at this stage. <p>So far, H seems to be 85% 'normal', and he does seem committed to working at the marriage. <p>There is another aspect to this, which is me. I am quite happy to be separated physically from him for the moment. I miss him very much and I love him, but I am enjoying not having to do 'wifely' duties (such as ironing shirts, picking him up from the station, etc, while I recover from all the crises and while I work out who I am. I have thought about this a lot over the last few days - being physically separated suits me for now, although I don't want this to be permanent. <p>I am feeling happier that he seems to be fairly 'normal' again and that he is willing to work at it - we were having problems before the A, so I wonder if a short separation was not on the cards whether he had the A or not.<p>I do miss important aspects of our relationship such as being close, having someone to talk to at night and just the general warm/fuzzy things, and I'm pretty sure he does too. These are what I want to get back slowly, and that were missing before the A and lead to the A(?)<p>The only thing that really concerns me right now is that he still may be seeing her.<p>I don't want to rush anything right now. I know I'm about to make another big change in my life and I need to think it through.<p>Another thing I need to bring up to him is counselling - we're going to need it, maybe this will prove how committed he is to recovery?

Liz - I agree that Plan B is not necessarily the thing for you to do right now given the possibility that the fog is clearing.<p>But, I'd like to offer a subtle, but important, distinction to something you said. The purpose of Plan B is not to bring an end to the affair. The purpose of Plan B is to isolate yourself from further hurt and loss of love for your spouse AND to prevent you from accidently causing further delays in the end of the affair as you ALLOW it to end. Get it?<p>The point is that a BS cannot cause the end of the affair. All you can do is make it worse by trying to interfere with it. After your love bank is drained and you can't hold back those LB's, all you're doing by continuing interaction with your WS is running risks that you're gonna make things worse for yourself. The Plan B isolation removes you from that. At the same time, the WS has to have all needs met by the OP or elsewhere and reality finally sets in when he/she discovers that the once "wonderful" person isn't quite so.<p>Dave

Thank you WAT, I think I was confused actually. I thought you went to B to 'end it', but I see now what you're saying. <p>I can hold back LB's for the moment (and want to learn to control this for me- I want to take back the power as you put it in an earlier post) and H seems to be clearing -fogwise, as I keep saying "I'll monitor it", and seek further advice if required. I truly hope I don't need it, but I don't know what's in store and even though H is more positive I try not to get too excited 'just in case'.<p>In the meantime I'm working, working, working on me. <p>I thought a lot about 'why?' and know its really a futile question, but the best explanation I can find for these crises (until I get the real deal from God) is that its so you seek help from God, it brings you back to God, he prompts you to seek your purpose in life and to look to him and ask him for guidance. But we all have a choice. Most of us here has chosen the 'road less travelled' and meet the challenge, others are not ready. Right or wrong, crises will keep coming until you choose to look at yourself or until God's finished with ya.<p>I've done a hell of a lot of soul-searching and I realise its not all bad - this has been very good for my self esteem and general attitude towards life. I hope I will be a better person for all this - actually I know I'm getting there.<p>Anyway, enough philosophy I'll drive everyone nuts with that soon. <p>SH - PS I'm thinking I might try a Henna tattoo of a seahorse as I'm not quite sure about a permanent one yet. Keep ya posted!

Seahorse:<p>I don't know you, but I wnat to say that you have tenacity, determination and slef reflection!<p>I hope and pray your husband sees what he has in you before he throws it away!<p>I don't know that I could be as nice as you while he continued to see the OW.

Hi Freshie, thanks for your support and comments. Its been a difficult road, let me tell you, but I had to decide whether I wanted him as my H or not. I chose yes, so I have to treat him with respect and love him. Believe me it took a lot of soul searching. I done a lot of looking at myself and my role in the marriage. MB has really helped me a lot. <p>I'm my mothers daughter and now she's dead someone has to carry on her legacy (she was very determined and strong).<p>I will look up your story later Freshie, I am at work right now and better get to it!

Hey Seahorse!<p> Just checking in with you! Sounds like you are doing very well. I am so happy for your progress!
I am very happy and moving forward with my life. Things are going quite well.<p> By the way you can purchase the camera parts separately. It is less expensive and you gradually get what you want without breaking the bank! Treat yourself as you meet new milestones!<p> Where are you going on your next vacation? Is that some where in the South Pacific? Fiji? Keep me posted sounds like fun.
I am looking into traveling myself.
Talk to you soon. I'm always praying for ya!
Forgiver