Hi Guys, I'm pretty frustrated and I need ideas.

The reason H didn't talk to SH was because there had been a change in time over there (and I didn't know). There has also been a time change here. This means that where as a 6am appointment was 9pm here, its now 11pm. H is now asking for an afternoon appointment and I have a feeling they don't give them (I've emailed the office). All this is driving me nuts. I don't know what to do, it looks like a time change is going to be the downfall of it all here. I've asked if he can speak to Jennifer instead but because I've started with Steve they'd rather we didn't change. The thing is that H may use the time difference as an excuse, wouldn't he be better to at least talk to someone so we could have a chance?????

Add to that the fact that H dosen't want to see me until he's spoken to H and I'm trying to stall lawyers for the financial split, the dog is being chauffered all over the place to chemo and bloodtests (I'm tired, I drove 250kms yesterday for this and worked), I need to organise this place for sale, but trying to stall that as well.

Today its all getting on top of me. Probably by the time you all read this I'll be OK again, but its just giving me the ****s today.

I'm also frustrated because I feel like I'm stalled. I feel like there's something I've got to do now, but I really don't know what it is.

Maybe I should just go to bed early and see if I feel better tomorrow.

FBOW - 36 isn't exactly old, exercise, eating right and having fun and plenty of sleep will help you no end. How much younger is OW?

RH - I'm interested in your answer. You may remember OW is Thai, I am having a real problem snow not being angry when I see a young Asian woman - this is totally not me, and I know it is simply because of what's happened. How have you come to the point where you could accept it? I mean, OM was in a Salsa band and you are thinking about Salsa classes? Do the triggers wear off with time?

WAT - Thanks for that. I was feeling stronger after the workshop. Last nights was good too. There was a guy whose wife had an affair and is still living with the guy. This has gone on for 18 months. He said he had no idea why it happened, could not see it coming. He said he has no interest in even being her friend, but he is still very angry and works longer hours to avoid the feelings. Hopefully once he gets going with the workshop he'll work through some of this stuff. I think if you know what you did to contribute, then can get past the guilt, then see that how the other contributed and forgive, then maybe you feel a little more peaceful. IMHO

<small>[ November 06, 2002, 01:52 AM: Message edited by: Seahorse ]</small>

One idea, Liz, is to see if there are any local counselors familar with MB principles - or at least specialize in infidelity. Looking ahead, even if your H can hook up with Steve and progress is made, sooner or later a local counselor makes a lot more sense for you mates down there.

Dave

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Seahorse:
<strong>RH - I'm interested in your answer. You may remember OW is Thai, I am having a real problem snow not being angry when I see a young Asian woman - this is totally not me, and I know it is simply because of what's happened. How have you come to the point where you could accept it? I mean, OM was in a Salsa band and you are thinking about Salsa classes? Do the triggers wear off with time?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think what has help me out is that I met OM 1x and talk to him 2x. I project my anger to him not what he is but who he is. It is personal. I know not all Salsa players are OM and not Salvadorian are OM. I personalize it to him. Also my WW is the one chasing him now and broke their M, my WW is OW from hell ... arm w/ MB & other relationship book !. Several weeks ago they got into fight, OM punched her & she bit him, They are into anger management exercise book. Sometime you have to take care of yourself before your ego suffer permanent damage, this is one reason I will never contact her or talk to her and keep my distance as far as south & north pole. My trigger was my WW & OM, but not anymore.
-rh-

Hi Seahorse,

Sounds like you and I are having a lot of the same feelings and frustations. Like nothing we do has any affect. My H is also away so I am out of the loop so to speak. I do think it helps us get over it better for some reason. We are already on our own. I don't even really feel married anymore. H treats me like a casual acquaintance more than anything. It has like he has basically just gotten past any feeling for me. I am getting to that point about him too.

I hope you can get the call with Steve together if your H is still willing. You have done so much I don't blame you for being tired and frustrated.

I agree that MB helps us be AHEAD. I also know some people who's spouse's betrayed them and are still having trouble. One woman's H has been married to OP longer than he was married to her and she is still bitter. 8 yrs. I talked to her and I just don't want to live my life that way. I can see the light at the end for me. Can you see it? It is there, look real hard. I have not given up hope but I realize now that letting go is all you can do sometimes.

I can really relate to the Thai 'thing' Everytime I see or hear the word ROMAINIA I get angry. I have nothing against them but it definitely is a TRIGGER.

Glad to hear about your dog. I have two and they are the best friends. I hope the therapy works for your dog. It is so kind and loving that you take such good care of your dog.

I hope things are brighter for you. Keep thinking positive. Maybe you and I both need to "Cut the Rope"

Take care

Sharon

Help! Someone say something to get me through this. Spoke to H this morning. He is back in fog something terrible.

Says that the only reason he will speak to SH is that it will end our marriage. Says there is absolutely no chance for us, that he has another issue now and he can't just get rid of it (ie her). He says that if we got back together it would be the same, says that all he remembers is the night we had that really bad fight (just after dday 2). Says that its not worth it, it can never be good again and that he was unhappy for so long.

I said that it wouldn't be the same that I didn't want to go back to that either. I explained that I made mistakes but he never held me responsible, never drew boundaries with me and lied. He said that counselling was a joke and that he had never wanted to go (he was referring to the last time we went with that stupid counsellor). He said he didn't want anyone to tell him what to do, he was his own person now. I pointed out that even though he says Ow does not control him she seems to have him right where she wants him and seems to have a lot of control over him right now.

Wow, it really hurts. I had to try hard not to LB. I felt like hitting out something bad. Why, after all this time, does it still hurt so much? Maybe I had my hopes up about the thing with steve and counselling. Maybe I should just forget it. He says he will still talk to steve but it has to be a 2pm appt (which I don't think they offer, but I will ask). I have looked and found someone in Oz, but it means we start again and they don't use MB principles. If H walks in and says what he did just then....

I know I shouldn't take fog induced conversation personally, but this really hurts. I feel discarded and desperate again. It really does look like there is no hope here. I don't understand, do I walk away, do I keep trying? Is there some inbetween?

I rang him back and said I felt bad about how the conversation went. I tried to keep it light and we talked about other things. He has bought himself a car, so we talked about that.

There's a couple of things that I don't know how to do. Everything is so serious with me, its tiring me out and driving me nuts, how do i have a normal realtionship with him? I mean, just be a friend and have fun.

I need to have some fun for my own sanity, not the bellydancing, diving sort of fun, but just the living life everyday kind of fun. Everythings so serious at the moment and I don't know how to make it not serious. I know this sounds silly but its driving me insane and I feel like its a major part of my problems at the moment. I just worry about everything and I'm sick of it. Any ideas, can anyone point me in the right direction? Is there anyone on this board who knows how to live life to the fullest who could give me some tips. Reading it, it sounds stupid, but its how I feel.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Seahorse:
<strong>I know I shouldn't take fog induced conversation personally, but this really hurts. I feel discarded and desperate again. It really does look like there is no hope here. I don't understand, do I walk away, do I keep trying? Is there some inbetween? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>
Yes, plan B but you have to discuss it w/ SH. Meanwhile let H to talk to SH for now, so that SH could assess your situation. At some point you have to take care yourself, you have given your best.

-rh-

I know RH, I can't keep on like this. He also said that all men cheat, this is how I know he was in fog. I pointed out that his father, brothers, my father and brothers didn't cheat - he said I didn't know that for sure.

He also said he has never given any indication that we would get back together. This has me doubting myself now. What if its me? What if I'm just reading signs to stay in denial about it all. See I'm loosing it.

<small>[ November 07, 2002, 01:48 AM: Message edited by: Seahorse ]</small>

Hi Seahorse,

It's not denial, it is still that you love your H - and still hope for better marriage. And you are my hero as far as plan A goes.
Do not forget though that neither plan A nor plan B are guaranteed ways to rescue all relationships. They are just for us, BS, to prepare us in the best way to ANY outcome. It took a while for me to truly accept this fact.
Of course I still remain hopeful and willing but I do realize one willing spouse can't make up for the other side choice.
You know, because of the betrayal I think it is its natural consequence that you are suspicious and paranoid with everything. Same thing happened to me. I keep pinching myself and reminding that I am not crazy, just sad, worried, and stressed.
I think some people drain their LB$ quicker than others, so some go into plan B protecting themselves faster. Fog talk is hurtful but I guess does not compare to verbal/physical abuse or shouting, yelling or disrespectful, purposeful actions. I am draining faster now being aware that current situation is painful not only for me but for kids as well.

I am still in plan A but approaching plan B.
I am scared and guilty that I will have to bring kids into this eventually/soon.
I do make my choices according to the mentioned motto - I cannot afford to do something to be ashamed of now and years from now.
So far, so good. But no progress in the R. It is getting worse. My girls noticed that we hardly talk and got worried and approached me individually a week/few days ago.
I did not want to scare them or lie or give them false sense of everything is/will be fine.
I told them I love them, same with H, we are having problems, but no matter how we resolve it, they will be loved and cared for even if the solution might not be their or mine preferred choice.
I also told each one that when I will know what the solution will be - after talking to their Dad - I will tell them - but that right now I do not know the answer yet.
I hope I handled these conversations properly. It is sad but they mentioned they were uncomfortable talking to Dad.
So two days ago I approached my H telling him that we really should talk, and talk to kids, also reiterated my need for him telling me about his trips as much in advance as possible. I told him I did not demand the conversation right away, but that we need to do it.
Sorry Seahorse, you pain made me share mine.
I keep thinking of you.
FBOW

(((FBOW)))

I know it is very hard and you sound like you are doing very well considering what you are going through. This road is a tough one and I sometimes wonder why I chose this one instead of the easy one. Don't you? I know it is not easy to go to plan B, look at me I failed miserably, and look where it has got me anyway. Sometimes I wonder if it would have been better to go straight to plan B on D-day.

I'm having a really bad day today. I think I am coming to the point where I do have to enforce a boundary with H. I have warned him (not like the plan B thing where I didn't). I have told him that being his 'friend' would be too painful. Its something I don't understand. Why, if I was such a bad wife and did all those horrible things to make his life a misery, would he still want to be friends. How is it that he can sit and chat like old times about his new car and work but still be so angry that I was so horrid to him. This simply does not make sense. Then again I guess I should look at myself. I'm doing the same thing.

All I know is this is hurting a lot today. I don't know why I am back here again. I hate this part. But I know I'm not some psycho who hasn't let go. I got signals from him, I don't think I misread them. I made mistakes, some were really bad, but I can't undo the past no matter how much I want to.

I will organise this appt with Steve if I can, but I think maybe now I just need to let this go. Even though I know he's in fog rah rah rah. I think its time as RH says to protect my sanity. I'm not going to plan B with all the bells and whistled, but I will just simply drift away. He knows I love him, he knows I want him back. There's no need for all the plan B fanfare - been there done that.

Now I just have to concentrate on increasing my circle of friends. I think that will have to be my survival now. Find new friends and be distracted.

It is really easy to be friends with someone who likes you as more than a friend, but you don't quite fancy (or did fancy once but don't now). Most of the times the other person reads these signs of friendship as something more.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Seahorse:
<strong>I will organise this appt with Steve if I can, but I think maybe now I just need to let this go. Even though I know he's in fog rah rah rah. I think its time as RH says to protect my sanity. I'm not going to plan B with all the bells and whistled, but I will just simply drift away. He knows I love him, he knows I want him back. There's no need for all the plan B fanfare - been there done that.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is time for everything. You have done your best and now just honor his wish ... for better or worst. Try to talk to SH before doing anything. i.e schedule one and if H didn't call you take that slot and talk to SH.

God bless you. -rh-

Seahorse -- You say it doesn't make any sense. No, it doesn't. I wish you could come on my girls trip to Vegas this weekend. I was feeling down but this is picking up my spirits thinking of being with my friends.

I know exactly how you feel. That doesn't help I know, but I do feel your pain with you. I'm having a really hard time with plan B, but at least it is protecting me from the angry and hurtful things that WH says. I know he still says them from what I hear from his sister.

I know that SH says plan B is dangerous without kids, but I don't think it's any worse than continued verbal abuse by WH. That's what this is when they talk to us this way. Verbal abuse.

You have been so strong and I really hate to see you feeling this way.

I don't know of a magic cure to make you feel better about life (if I did I'd be taking it). I wish I could be there. I wish I could send you a plane ticket for Las Vegas. I wish I could make all of this go away.

Hi Seahorse,
how are you;
Hope you are doing better.
Please see me at my thread

My anxiety makes my heart physically sore. I know though I had to do what I did yesterday. I don't know if I could survive on crumbs of his love, even if I would be getting any, knowing he is capable of giving the whole cake to person he loves.
It would be so much easier if I stopped loving him and just let go. I am scared. Not that I will not cope; I will; I have to; for kids sake.
I am afraid about kids and family judgement and that I will be the one questioned, blamed, advised, commiserated upon. I am worried that my girls just like me after my parents divorce will carry guilt, low self esteem, too mature responsibility, no trust with them for the rest of their lives.I hope that no matter what they will remain my H daughters. I am scared knowing that at least till they grow up I will have to live alone thousands of miles apart from my family and friends and be solely responsible for their upbringing, providing and well being, physically and emotionally. I feel so tired now and I know I won't be able to mentally rest for years ahead.
Please pray for us.
FBOW

Hi Seahorse,
You seem to be stalling. I know that probably nothing has changed, but you need to examine and write down your feelings often.

You have me worried again. I know how easy it is to let the bad thoughts rule the day. I find myself wondering how you are taking the unknown this week. Let us know how you are. OK?

SS

Hello all, I've been putting of posting as I haven't got much to tell. H was to speak to SH this morning, and I haven't heard anything yet. Its now evening here. I don't want to contact H. I don't want to hear about it. I guess I'm trying to protect myself from being hurt. I don't know if they talked or what the outcome is.

Last week we had a discussion on Thursday that I have no idea where the fog came from. He told me that he is definitely not coming back and that he hasn't told me for a long time that there was any hope. Apparently because he has not mentioned being in love or whatever since late September, I should have known that it meant the relationship was over - silly me! If someone tells you they love you...he's the one in denial. I felt so awful after the conversation, it was all a huge LB for me.

I called him back as it wasn't sitting well with me and the next thing we were talking like old times again. I gave up long ago trying to work this out. I just take each encounter for what it is.

So, now its just waiting. I am stalling the financial separation, but I can't for much longer. I have to get out of this house (as much as I am sad to go). If I don't I will never move on with my life with or without him.

I'm not looking forward to moving in with dad. I think its going to be testing. I guess if it gets to much I move out again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Relate - I am asking you for a third time not to post to me.

Redhat - yep I've done my best. The only other thing I can think to do is contact OW and tell her I will wait for H, but I think that could be a double edge sword. I think the best thing now is to just do what I have to do - whatever that is!

USH - I wish I could come on your Vegas trip too! How was that by the way? Please update on your thread. I think about how your going. I feel OK about life, usually the down times are when I come here to vent (sorry about that guys).

FBOW - I am praying for all of us. You will be surprised how much a person can take. I will update on your thread after I finish here.

SS- I'm doing OK, I write my feelings down a, talk a bit and read a lot. Of course there's the doggy too, whose doing very well. I keep asking God what to do next and I get a very obvious nothing, so that is what I'm doing right now - nothing!

Hopefully I will have something more to offer soon.

Hi Liz, It's good to hear from you. I have been worring .......uh, make that thinking about you.

Hello all, I've been putting of posting as I haven't got much to tell. H was to speak to SH this morning, and I haven't heard anything yet.
It would make us very happy if you came back and said H wanted to work on things, but the reason I post is to help you personally. If we can help your M, that will be an additional benefit. You have invested a great deal of energy into trying to make things work, I worry sometimes that you will invest beyond your ability to recover in a reasonable amount of time. But.........you are doing much better than some of those you told us about in the support group.

Its now evening here. I don't want to contact H. I don't want to hear about it. I guess I'm trying to protect myself from being hurt. I don't know if they talked or what the outcome is.
You are trying to protect yourself. You are trying so hard to go on but you don't want to go on. Sometimes it seems to me that you may just get things to work by sheer willpower. If that could do it, you would be recovered long ago. I still admire you for doing what you have done. I know that doesn't help much, but I had to say it.

Last week we had a discussion on Thursday that I have no idea where the fog came from. He told me that he is definitely not coming back and that he hasn't told me for a long time that there was any hope. Apparently because he has not mentioned being in love or whatever since late September, I should have known that it meant the relationship was over - silly me! If someone tells you they love you...he's the one in denial.
Did I ever mention that he's the one with the problem, not you?

I felt so awful after the conversation, it was all a huge LB for me. I called him back as it wasn't sitting well with me and the next thing we were talking like old times again. I gave up long ago trying to work this out. I just take each encounter for what it is.

Remember that it's not what they say that counts, it's what they do. I believe he is a natural born talker. I also believe that conversation is an important need for you. I have considered if that is one of the reasons you fell in love with him in the beginning. Talking is fine if you do things to back it up. I once worked with someone that promised customers everything when he was face to face to them " Oh yes, we can have that here for you on Monday morning, no problem." but as soon as they would leave, he would go to the next customer and sell them, but never order any thing for any of them, so come Monday nothing would be there. He would then go off like this " I'll have to get that from someone else, that darn supplier didn't ship it for you." Really, he had never ordered it. He liked to talk ( sell) but that was it, he seldom seemed to follow through with anything else.
So, is he doing any thing that would make you think there is still a chance? Talking to Steve is a plus, but he may have wanted to do it just because he likes to talk. I am not trying to lead you anywhere specific, I just wanted to get you thinking. I don't have any real answers for you, just questions. Perhaps you have already thought all around this one.

So, now its just waiting. I am stalling the financial separation, but I can't for much longer. I have to get out of this house (as much as I am sad to go). If I don't I will never move on with my life with or without him. I'm not looking forward to moving in with dad. I think its going to be testing.

I think you ought to go ahead with the home. I can't see what staying will do, I believe you have said that moving would put you closer to work anyway? If he raised a daughter like you, I would think that your father must be a fine man. Am I seeing a little generation gap here? This is good natured teasing, you don't need to answer that one. (BG)
I guess if it gets to much I move out again. Yes, but you may find that you can teach your Dad something and he may turn out to be a good listener.

I think the best thing now is to just do what I have to do - whatever that is!
Sell the house, move, then think some more, it will probably come in stages.

I am praying for all of us. You will be surprised how much a person can take. I will update on your thread after I finish here. SS- I'm doing OK, I write my feelings down a, talk a bit and read a lot. Of course there's the doggy too, whose doing very well. I keep asking God what to do next and I get a very obvious nothing, so that is what I'm doing right now - nothing! Hopefully I will have something more to offer soon.

Doing nothing is kind of fun.......sometimes, but you are not comfortable doing nothing (right now) are you - and that is a statement, not a question.

I am glad at least that your Dog is doing better, I hope it doesn't seem like nothing will ever work for you, I still believe it will, and that you will be very happy. I am praying "for all of us" too. I know you want to have something more to offer soon, but I wanted to remind you to go on anyway. If there are things you need to do, or want to do whether you reconcile or not, go ahead and do them. Focus on what needs to be done no matter what, and it will take your mind of other things. Remember this forum is proof of how many friends you have, it's not you.

SS

<small>[ November 13, 2002, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hi all.

Well SS I know what you're saying and since that last conversation I've been very much "well that's it then".

Then last night I get a message on my phone from H. He spoke to SH, it was very good and he said much of what I've been saying and he sees what I mean. He will come today (Saturday) to talk to me.

I should be happy but I'm not. I don't want to get dragged back up the mountain again to be kicked off again in a month. I've had enough of it. Either I get on with my life without him or he shows me that he means it and start putting action behind the words.

So I'll reserve my judgement till after I talk to him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Remember this forum is proof of how many friends you have, it's not you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you SS. Yes, I'm getting that more and more. I think this boy is really confised. I wonder if this latest deal is a another problem with OW, again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Talking is fine if you do things to back it up. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I might use this on him today. If he wants this M I will contact SH immediately for cc session. If not, I will continue on with what I see my next step is (ie selling up, moving out).

I guess this is the point I've been stalling for. To me this is the decider.

Liz!! That's terrific!!

When my alien talked to Steve - well, let's just say it only happened once.

You are right to be neutral at this point, but keep an open mind. This may be a turning point - in one direction or the other.

Listen and validate. Don't argue. Don't be in a hurry to respond or answer questions he may pose to you.

If the opportunity presents itself, direct him here. I'll be gentle - I hope.

Dave

Seahorse -- As everyone has repeatedly said on this board. Actions speak louder than words. I think that your WH talking to SH is an action in the right step. Now, we'll just have to see if WH can stay on the steps and not fall off again.

I am very hopeful for you and WH. I am very curious to hear what your WH comes over and says to you today. Maybe he fell off the steps completely, hit his head and awoke from his fog and is now climbing back up those steps.

Hi Seahorse,
it's great development. At least he shows some willingness to change the status quo. And I cheer for you that the change will be to your liking.
I will be thinking of you Saturday your time.
Thanks for your compassion and comments on my thread, too.
FBOW