when at first we practice to deceive(or something like that).<P>As I have posted before, I came upon some of my information about W's relationship with OM thru surreptitious means. This same method uncovered lies, deception, partiality on the part of W's therapist, etc. I really did not want to use this info directly to confront about anything. I have used the knowledge to ask pointed questions only to try to smooth the path to honesty and forthrightness by W about what is going on. W has suspected the means by which this info has come, but I haven't felt the need to be forthcoming, primarily because there hasn't been total honesty on her part.<P>Because we had both indicated to each other and to our joint therapist that everything was pretty much over, I had asked for and received an appointment with her that I wanted to use for a kind of "closure" with her. During our discussion, I mentioned two specific incidents that would point to the source of my information. One had to do with confirming that I wasn't the only one who had felt that she had taken sides(with OM) during W's individual counseling. The other was evidence that W's honesty was suspect because of a lie told to a family member that wasn't necessary.<P>Anyway, W has pretty regular appointments with the therapist(we used her personal Th as the joint counselor -- word of advice, <B>NEVER, NEVER</B> do this). I was expecting her to have an appointment last Friday and was fully prepared for lots of unpleasant nastiness when she returned, assuming the therapist would bring up all of the things I had told her. It was all true, mind you, but I knew W would be terminally furious about "how" I knew(she would probably guess right).<P>Anyway, it turns out she didn't make an appointment for last week, so none of this came out. We were pleasant and increasingly affectionate to each other thru the weekend. Early Sunday afternoon, she told me that she wasn't going to be moved out by X-mas. I told her that it was OK, because a big part of me didn't want her to go. After a tiny bit more of discussion, she started crying. When I asked her what was wrong, she told me that she really didn't want to leave, but felt she had no choice.<P>The upshot of all of this was that we had a very, very good conversation about things and she made a big effort to be honest with me during the conversation. I will admit that there were still some things I asked about that she just didn't answer because it involves something she still wants to hide from me and there were a couple of other things that didn't jibe completely with what I knew to be true. But, overall, this was an incredible breakthrough for us with a lot of honest feelings shared between us and honest discussion about what had happened to us and where we really wanted to go from here.<P>This was the best communication we have had since all of this started. There is still a long way to go, but it was an incredible start!!<P>The tragedy of all of this is that once W has another therapy appointment, I fully expect that her Th will tell her <B>everything</B> I said. She really sided with OM in this, saying he is an "altruistic" friend of W's. This is far from true, but it is based on what W has told her. She has never talked to him and never to me alone until the week before last. Therefore, I am assured that what I told her will <B>not</B> remain confidential but will be described to W in detail. This is guaranteed to cause an irrepairable rift between us that will ensure the divorce. I have to accept this and pretty much have. If, in the smallest of chances, it doesn't destroy what we have left, I am ready to do everything I can to save this marriage. This is quite a turnaround from where I was last week. It's a testament to how significant I thought our conversation was yesterday.<P>The lesson I hope some of you take from this is that you need to be careful with any information you obtain thru less than direct means. I did what I did to maintain my sanity thru all of this. Overall, I don't regret doing it because in some cases it gave me a "heads-up" to change the direction of events before they got out of hand, but in the final analysis, it's going to be the end of the marriage. Still, given the same situation, I would do it again.

Heartpain,<P>If you feel divorce is inevitable then consider your options to save your marriage.<P>The first thing I would try is to appeal to the therapist not to disclose anything yet. She can only say no. Secondly I would consider telling your wife yourself before she hears it second hand. There has to be a way to present it such that she won't go off the deep end.<P>While we know that what you did is reasonable given the circumstances, there is no way a betrayer can understand, unless they are looking for reconcilliation.<P>I hope you haven't dug yourself a hole. Perhaps you could use your recent communication as an opportunity to show how you appreciate your W's honesty by being honest with her. If all is truly lost already,then you will have lost nothing. This won't be easy but there is a chance that you may have turned a corner. Good luck.<P>------------------<BR>It's always darkest before the dawn

What kind of therapist do you have. My counselor is bound by the same rules as doctor and attorney confendentiality. What you say in a session should not be told to your wife without your permisssion. When and H and I were going to counseling. He felt that the counselor we saw the same one was telling me what he said, but she wasn't Sometimes she would direct my path or set me thinking but she never once told me anything. Even when she knew he was seeing the OW and lying to me and giving me hope. All she ever said was to be realistic ab bout things. So I would definitely check on your therapist. This would be illegal and can cause the person to lose certification.

SDS -- I didn't explain it completely 'cause so many already know my story.<P>In April, right after disclosure, both W and I started seeing therapists. Different therapists. Each time I tried to get W to do joint counseling, she insisted that she would only do it with her personal therapist because of comfort. In order to get us in therapy, I agreed. Therefore, since this last session I talked about was with W's/joint therapist, I'm not sure if the confidentiality tenet applies. One would hope so, but taking sides, choosing to be favorable to OM vs. husband without ever talking to either, is not very ethical/professional either....

Now I am confused, is is W in there with you. or was this private. If it is private the terapist still has to have your permission to tell w anything! Our counselor was our joint one that went to separate when H would not work on marriage. I know he felt threated by her because she and I had such a rappore (sp) Also he had a lot of guilt. But even to this day she won't tell me anything bout his counseling sessions and he is no longer seeing her. Actually I am not either because I have moved but we keep in touch.

SDS -- OK, here is the final piece of the puzzle. On the last session W and I did together, we had both basically given up any hope of working it out. This was because W intended to move out to get space and get her head together, which was OK with me, I understood. However, she flat out told me when asked, that she didn't want to tell me she would remain faithful during this time(even though the plan was to stay married), simply because she didn't want any rules.<P>At the end of this session the therapist expressed her regrets at how things turned out, and offered to see us both one more time for a "closure" session or see us separately. W indicated that she wanted to continue her individual sessions and later the next week, I asked for an individual session to discuss with her some of my sticking points to determine if I was really unjustified as she had indicated. When I first made the call, I mistakenly asked her to keep it(the intended session) between her and me. This was because I wasn't even sure everything I wanted to talk about and didn't want the third-degree from W until I was ready. The phone call didn't go well and she neglected to set up an appointment then. Later in the week during W's individual session, she asked W if I had told her about the phone call(I had). Th and I eventually worked out the session I described above. But, you see, since she asked W about the phone call, I have to believe that she doesn't feel any reticence about talking about anything else.<P>Clearer now?? Sorry for the confusion...

A light comes on! BUt I still think even though she asked about the phone call doesn't mean she will tell W what you said. And if you are unsure confront the th. ask her. And by all means tell her you are upset about this and do it before w has another session!!! It will make you feel a little better and will let your th know what you said was said in confedence! Especially now! Sorry for being so slow but it is Mon. morning and I am only on my first cup of coffee.<P>------------------<BR>di<P>

Our joint therapist kept hidden from me the fact that my H was having an affair, and went so far as to pretend that we could only discuss the children because we "couldn't agree on whether to work on the marriage", although she admitted to me later that she was unwilling to discuss anything else because she didn't think it would do any good because of the ongoing affair. She finally admitted the affair when I told her I had found out - I was surprised she didn't even ask how I knew, my H was furious at her, at the therapist we saw later was horrified. Perhaps you should write her a letter requesting confidentiality, not mentioning any specifics, and keep a copy. It seems to me she could lose her license if she violates confidentiality.

Hey HP,<P>As you know I used the same information retreval system to find out what was going on here on the homefront. After Val found out she told me that she could never trust ME again. HUH? That I might use this device again and she thought that was wrong. OK? Did someone get the license number on that truck? Maybe it was wrong of me, but, she wasn't going to give up the truth voluntarily. Had to be done. It is still hooked up today. Just in case. <P>Her logic was mind boggeling .<BR><P>------------------<BR>"It's not over till we say it's over! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? H*ll no!" Blutto...Animal House 1984<P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Medic<P>

I agree with all the rest. Therapists are bound by rules of confidentiality. If you have ANY reservations that yours might violate them, then call her up and "remind" her of her obligation in this regard. At the very least, this will put her on notice that you are aware of your rights. And, WILL press charges if they are violated. At best, it will put your mind at ease.<P>Minor gains are so hard to come by, don't let this therapist mess things up for you.

Oh, well. All of this may not make any difference anyway. After our "frank" conversation yesterday, she went out to look at another apartment today.<P>I've really got to get a handle on me. I had accepted the fact that things were not going to turn out well, and then yesterday....I let it give me false hopes again. I did call her at work to ask her about it. I said that she must have changed her mind and she said that she just looked.<P>Why do I do this to myself? Why don't I just cave in and give up and take what she says with a grain of salt? This, at least, is not really <B>her</B> fault, it's mine. A personality defect, I guess. Will have to work on that as well as the other things I am doing to try to be a better person.<P>Can anyone recommend a good lobotomist?<p>[This message has been edited by Heartpain (edited December 13, 1999).]

Well.<P>I was reading along at all the posts coming up with something relatively wise and witty - for me anyway - and then I get to your last post.<P>Well.<P>It's hard NOT to get our hopes up when we see a glimmer. And what you got this weekend was more than a mere glimmer - almost a full-fledged ray! And I think she meant it all.<P>Now, it's a lot easier on us if we detach and not get the least bit excited when the little goodies come along. But the fact of the matter is, I really feel like that's all we're gonna get for a while, no matter which way things turn out. She's gonna go back and forth and you're gonna go up and down. And it sucks. <P>Look, you're right. You've gotta protect yourself some. But the fact of the matter is, she was more honest with you this weekend than she's been and that's a big step. I agree. Try to talk to the T and see if you can get her to keep things confidential. If not (and I don't think you can trust her really), then start figuring out what you're gonna do when she tells her and you catch the fallout. Even if she tells her, it doesn't mean that this weekend wasn't the beginning of an entirely new journey for you two. Neither does her apartment hunting for that matter.<P>Hang in there, Heartpain. This ride's getting interesting!<P>Lori

Luv ya, Lori, maybe your reply wasn't your wittiest(you would have to go some to top a few of them), but it was wise and is always appreciated.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>This ride's getting interesting!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Isn't this what the stunt man says right before he drives the car off the cliff?<P>Hugs to ya...

You know what I think?<P>I think that you did the right thing when you talked to the Therapist. I do! You did what you thought was right at the time, and you shouldn't have to kick yourself in the a** for it forever. Okay, so what now?<P>If you can't get the T to keep her mouth shut (and I agree that she should be bound by ethics not to share if you ask her not to) but say she tells your W. It is <B>your W's</B> decision what to do with that. It may set her back a bit, but let's face it... you didn't tell lies, you told the truth, and the truth hurts.<P>I'm happy for you to have seen that glimmer of hope over the weekend, and I hope that things continue to sparkle...<P>and again, that therapist is an idiot.<P>~Sheryl

Sheryl -- It's only been a day. My a$$ isn't even sore yet.<P>Yeah, the therapist is an idiot and so am I. Maybe we should get together and form some kind of secret society.<P>I didn't care much for roller coasters when I was young and I sure don't like them now.<P>Thanks for being around and hugs to 'ya...<P>Added at 5:25pm -- after a little more than a week of coming home before 5pm, W is now back in her old pattern...maybe OM was on vacation last week???<P><BR>--DeWayne--<p>[This message has been edited by Heartpain (edited December 13, 1999).]

Well, when she did come home, she was very affectionate. I do like this, but I can't help feeling like I'm the victim of a snow job. I carry on conversations about looking at the apartment, their rules on cats(we have two) and so on, but deep down, it kills me. I don't know why people have to do this to their mates. What's wrong with just saying "I am leaving, I need to get away from you(or this marriage)". Whatever happened to good old-fashioned honor and honesty? Have we as a society degraded so far that personal integrity doesn't mean anything anymore?<P>The current state and permissiveness of society is a large reason our spouses can treat us this way. We need to raise our children differently with "old-fashioned" values if we want to stop the impropriety with which we treat others.<P>OK, I'm getting off my soapbox to go to bed. I hope that all of you have better days tomorrow and I just want to say that I'm sure glad you guys are here.

Goodnight, DeWayne. <P>Here's hoping tomorrow brings something good. Besides, I think you're right on target w/ that soapbox thing!!!<P>Lori

DeWayne,<P>Don't give up here - i agreee with the others, there IS hope here.<P>Your W is still confused and that means she hasn't 100% decided against the marriage! You know, maybe the entire idea of the apartment is to "test" you - see if you will support her???? I would be supportive but also make sure she knows you are wanting her at home. <P>She might talk about apartments, she might look at apartments, but she might NOT move to an apartmnet! If she does, mabne she needs that time on her own to figure out the grass definitely isn't greener elsewhere......<P>Burning a candle for you tonight!!!!!<P>Desiree <P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Lori -- Thanks a lot. I hope tomorrow(today) is better, but I don't have my hopes up.<P>Desiree -- Thanks for the input. I know she hasn't decided 100% against the marriage. One of the things she said Sunday while she was upset(crying) was that "Sometimes we are so perfect together". But she only says things like that when she is upset. She seems to be a different person when she is happy/content.<P>I haven't changed my mind on what I will do if she <B>does</B> move out. At that point, it's over for me. It's hard enough for me to continue making this emotional investment while she's here and undecided. It will be impossible once she is gone and fooling around with OM.<P>Love seems to be one of the greatest blessings and worst curses that people have. It's amazing how it can be the best of your life and the worst at the same time.<P>--DeWayne--