I'm still having trouble letting go of my anger at my stbx. <P>Yesterday she stopped to pick of our daughter and I asked her about the mortgage money. She immediately started poor mouthing saying she had spent alot of money buying Christmas gifts for "YOUR" children.<P>I just get so angry when she does this stuff. She just won't agree with me on anything. She has to have the money, she works almost full time, om pays half the rent and the little utilities they have. <P>She dropped off d today and gave me check for half what she owes, I guess thats better than nothing. But why do I have to ask/badger her about it. This is two months in a row now. Maybe om is telling her not to!<P>Why does it take me getting mad with her about something to get her to do it. She mad a point of telling me she would feed the kids yesterday! That was 2 weeks ago that we had the fight about her feeding the kids. Now she has finally taken steps.<P>Now I have to do the same thing about the money!!!<P>Also twice this weekend, she called the kids, "YOUR KIDS"! What's up with that. MAybe she is thinking about what I yelled at her last weekend. That she should sign over her parental rights to me. <P>I was talking to her best friend's husband last nite and he told me that stbx told his wife that she is mad at me for not giving her my schedule. What schedule ? She knows when the kids have stuff, 3-4 nites per week!<P>I have things the same time every Wed and Fri nite at the same time that I've done for years, so its not like I'm running around to different place every nite.<P>The thing that frosts me is that she won't ask me, she goes thru the kids or her friends. I guess she wanst to avoid my anger.<P>MEanwhile she tells me they are going out of town this week, and going on vacation in Jan, etc. I guess I am just jealous!!!<P>Thanks for the vent!!!!<P>------------------<BR>"You can't always get what you want! But if you try real hard,you might just find, you get what you need!"<BR>Mick Jagger

Hey RWD,<P>You do know why you are angry at your W right? [Insert answer here.] Yep you still love her. Some one told me once that there is a fine line between love and hate. That's very true. Emotions are very strong. So I shot him. Just kidding. I don't have a gun, yet. Used a baseball bat. <P>Val just came down to get her keyboard and check out the tree. Who's bullsh!ting who. She hasn't touched the Casio in years. It's been sitting in the closet collecting dust. The dust bunnies were a little ticked when the were evicted. Wanted to see the tree? She's seen trees before. They are big and green and smell nice. It's got the same white lights and gold balls on that many trees before it have worn.<P>Why do you think she came down? <P>One last thing Bob. I wish you wouldn't use the "stbx" thing. She is still your W and it is obvious to the blind that you still love her. Just a mental thing for me I guess.<P> <P>------------------<BR>"It's not over till we say it's over! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? H*ll no!" Blutto...Animal House 1984<P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Medic<P>

Wow! You get money? Feel lucky RWD. I get squat! And her name is on top of the mortgage!

RWD - I think what Medic says about you still loving your W is true. I think your anger is the flip side of your love for her. I know this is true in my case, and our W's do sound very similar. I know in my own case, I have never felt such instense passion for anyone in my entire life as I used to have for my W. I've never been anywhere near as angry at anyone else either, and I'm certain the anger comes out of the same place as the passion. If it's any consolation, I had a similar money fight with my W last weekend when I got a notice that a collection agency intended to take me to court. When I told my W that I'd probably need to see a lawyer, know what she told me? We can't afford it! This is the kind of support I get from her around issues like this, when any time she's had trouble like this, I've gotten behind her 100%. I had to raise my voice at her for a good 10-15 minutes about how unfair our financial arrangements are (I make the money, she has the fun) to get her to agree that I could see a lawyer if I needed to. (Turns out I don't, as I came to an agreement with the collection agency, but still....) So, I guess what I'm saying is, I don't blame you for venting one bit, because I know just where you're coming from, man! R & B,<P>--Wex

Hi RWD,<P>I looked back at an old post regarding anger, & found the following info. It refers to 'The Forgiveness Workbook' by Les Carter & Minirth. I haven't seen the book myself but would like to get a copy. Even if your W & you don't reconcile, you're still going to have to process your anger, & eventually work through forgiveness (for your sake).<P>Step 2 in the Forgiveness workbook is to "Recognize that your anger is not only<BR>normal, but necessary."<BR> <BR>The basic gist of this is that when we try to forgive we assume that we should remove all anger. WRONG! Feelings of anger are normal because:<P>1. when we open ourselves to another we expect to be treated decently.<BR>2. we feel betrayed<BR>3. the betrayal goes against our morals & sometimes we feel if give up the anger<BR>we give up our morals.<BR>4. feelings of loss continue long after the wrong act itself.<P>If we fight against the normal process and don't accept our anger as a normal, human emotion, we make the process more difficult. We can choose to forgive but we must allow the process of healing to happen. That means admitting that our emotions are legitimate.<P>By the way, I agree with Medic, "stbx" sounds very negative. A symptom of your anger, no doubt!<BR>

Medic,<BR>I really don't think about om at all. Its her I don't understand. I can understand the affair, but the extent to which she has carried all this is totally unbelieveable.<P>As for still loving her, a wise man told me that the opposite of love isn't hate, its indifference. I don't fill indifference for her yet.<P>As for using stbx, our divorce hearing is scheduled for Feb 1, 2000. I don't what else to call her. Its difficult to call her my wife as she hasn't lived with me for 6 months, is living with a mm, is going on vacation with him to meet his mommy, has pretty much abandoned our kids(no matter how she says she hasn't), has pretty much lied to and deceived me for 6 months !<P>Chris,<BR>Yea, I guess I am fortunate that she does give me anything. Thats the first thing she threatens to take whenever we argue about something. She has only once threatened to take the kids.<P>Wex,<BR>See my reply to Medic as far as loving my stbx.<BR>Had to laugh, just got back from running errands, and went past stbx's apartment and she was just leaving for work, but it was ahalf hour early. Well she ended up following me and instead of turning into the hospital, she turned into her doctors. Guess who pays for that! She has to the doctors more in the past 6 months than she has in the past 3 yrs. I also got a statement from my benefits provider. It was a bill for counseling for my stbx. She is using the same counselor we used for 3 visits when we were attemping(at least I was)reconciliation.<BR>I wonder if she is doing joint counseling with om too?<P>Well after 2-1-00, she'll have to pay for her own benefits!<P>Sidney,<BR>I know that I must go thru the process, I guess I thought I was past it, but it came back. I was feeling pretty good till yesterday, when I got lonely, and now I am angry. Just have to work thru it.<BR>Thanks!<p>[This message has been edited by RWD (edited December 13, 1999).]

Hey Bob,<P>She is still in Fanasyland. Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down, short is long. <P>I really don't believe that the opposite of love is indifference. Love is a VERY powerful emotion. Indifference is more like, hey do you want some chocolate pudding? Eh, I don't care. You do care! I see it and I think many others do too. This isn't the pudding thing.<P>STBX. Bud, my divorce papers will be ready in mid January. IF we sign them final decree will come through around February 15th. Happy Valentines Day, huh? Valerie is not my STBX, even with the papers on their merry way. She is still my W. I love her and I know she loves me too. We are just having problems now. <P>It seems that you have thrown in the towel. I did too for a brief time a while back. I sat down and thought about my life and what my W means to me. I have come to the conclusion that my marriage is worth fighting for and I will do the same tooth and nail. <P>The band isn't playing Amazing Grace for us yet.<P>Blutto is right! If you have absolutely no feelings for your W, then divorce is an option. I don't think you have passed that threshold yet. That's just me.<P> <P>------------------<BR>"It's not over till we say it's over! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? H*ll no!" Blutto...Animal House 1984<P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Medic<P><p>[This message has been edited by MEDIC238 (edited December 14, 1999).]

Hey Bob,<P>You're gonna be angry. You're gonna be lonely. That's okay. It's NORMAL, under the circumstances. Sometimes, I feel so lonely, that I truly ache inside. I mean my insides really hurt!! Just don't fight it. Know that you must feel it, process it, then let it go. And, cry. Are you crying? That's what I mean by letting it out. I know it's very hard for men to cry. It's a shame that our twisted culture doesn't allow it. It's necessary. It cleanses the soul.

Sidney,<BR>Yea, I have been crying, I haven't been holding that back except for around the kids.<BR>I think the Christmas stuff is getting to me now. I had felt so good last week.<P>Medic/Blutto<BR>I think you lost me on the this one.<BR>As for indiffernce, no I don't feel that for her. Do I still love her, yes I do. Does she still love me, nnot in the least, and probably hasn't for a long time.<BR>Have I thrown in the towel ? Yes, I have.<BR>How can I save a marriage that is dead? She has rejected me 3 times and really made no attempt at the reconciliation even when om was out of the picture for 2 months.<P>I have faced the fact that she is not coming back to me even if om takes off again. I have lost all respect for her for what she has done to the kids. They seem to just be a charm on her charm bracelet of life. She had a husband charm, but traded it in for a lover charm.<P>------------------<BR>"You can't always get what you want! But if you try real hard,you might just find, you get what you need!"<BR>Mick Jagger

OK Bob,<P>Here's my take on your situation. <P>You say you still love her. We know that. I can see that even with my glasses off and I'm very near sighted.<P>You report that the marriage is dead. Nope, not if you still care. You say she doesn't love you. I don't buy into that either. No one can turn off their emotions like a switch. If neither on of you gave a rats behind, then divorce would be the answer.<P>OM was out of the picture for 2 months and she made no attempt to reconsile. He may have been out of her life for that time period but not out of her mind. 2 months is not enough time for her to go through withdrawl.<P>You say she is not coming back. Tell ya what, not trying to be a smart [censored] here but, if you can tell me the lottery numbers for tommorrow night I will believe you. Please don't take offence. I am really trying to help here.<P>Val has been seeing Brian for the last 3 years. I sat down and have done some serious thinking. I will be *** damned if I will give up on my marriage. She is the best thing that has ever happened to me. I will not go down with out fighting the good fight. Like my Dad used to say, "Come Hell or high water!" <P>I think you have yourself so convinced that it is over you actually believe it. I think you still have a good chance.<BR> <P>------------------<BR>"It's not over till we say it's over! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? H*ll no!" Blutto...Animal House 1984<P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Medic<P>

Medic,<P>I am sure she doesn't love me and hasn't for a long time. In looking back over the past few years the signs are all there. She was simply biding her time and then the affair happened. I truly believe that this is an exit affair.<P>She has never cried about the affair, it starting or ending or restarting. She has never given me any type of appology although I guess they never do. <P>I love the old Carol, this new Carol is not an attractive person to me. I cannot take any more of hoping she will come to her senses and come back to me. She has made that painfully clear that she will not.<P>She is more than willing to give up everything for om, her kids, me and even her friends. She has had 4 chances to end this relationship and each time she has gone back. I know this is a pattern, but I am done playing.<P>As for her being the best thing that has happened to me, I don't know that yet. Maybe she was. <P>I am learning about myself, I'm a lot more old fashioned that I thought. I'm looking for a traditional marriage with someone that wants to help me teake care of the kids. Carol is not that woman, and she has admitted that.<P>How would I ever trust to come back to a "normal" family life now. Her and om go to concerts and movies and trips any time they want becuse they have no responsibilities. Why would she want to come back to that. She has me to take care of the kids and can see them a few hours at a time when she wants to.<BR>Sounds like she has it made to me.<P>I know I said I still love her, I guess its more I still care about her. I would not take her back if the affair ends, she has hurt me too bad. Besides I know she wouldn't come back any how.<P>------------------<BR>"You can't always get what you want! But if you try real hard,you might just find, you get what you need!"<BR>Mick Jagger

RWD(Bob) -- Sorry I'm late...<P>You have <B>every</B> right to your anger. I have been struggling with that issue for a while. I try to control it, then beat myself over the head for not being angrier. It's part of the process no matter how it turns out.<P>I agree with Wex and Medic, it's obvious that you still love her, the problem is that you have come to the conclusion that you don't <B>want</B> to. Easy enough to see why. I'm sorry that she has convinced you that she hasn't loved you in a long time. I doubt seriously that that is true. Hindsight is <B>not</B> always 20/20. There are times when we look back and are able to fit the symptoms to the outcome whether they really apply or not.<P>Keep the faith, I will try to respond more later....<P><BR>--DeWayne--

DeWayne,<BR>Thanks! I guess the return of my anger has suprised me. I don't know why, everything I have learned told me this would happen, that I will experience all of the emotions( hey, what happened to happiness?) many times getting thru this.<P>Have I talked myself out of loving her, I'm not sure, she certainly helped me. When we did have the chance to reconcile, I found myself holding back, I didn't really throw myself 110% into winning her back. <P>Why, because I don't trust her now. I don't want to be hurt again and again. She has become a very needy person, even the minister she was counseling with told me that, and that he didn't think anyone could satisfy all her needs.<P>I am also finding out about my needs. I never knew I had any! I now realize she was not filling many of mine, especially in the respect area. Now I have no respect for her.<P>I don't miss her moodiness, short temperedness, impatience, and her devotion to her job.<P>I do miss the woman I lived with for 16+ yrs adn the mother of my children, but that person is long gone now and I don't think she will return. After all those traits above are her personality.<P>------------------<BR>"You can't always get what you want! But if you try real hard,you might just find, you get what you need!"<BR>Mick Jagger

Bob,<P>Yes, I agree with the others - you still love your wife and don't want to. Sorry...you do.<P>First thought - she might be mad at you because she is feeling the consequenceso fher poor choices here. She traded concert tickets for kids???? Really, can that tuly make a person happy??? YOUR KIDS - don't you think she realizes she has walked away and abandoned them and they will look to you as their parent, not her?????<P>Yep, she is starting to really feel the consequences of her actions. The money - she probably is short and doesn't have it to give to you. NO EXCUSE - her first obligation should be to provide for those kids - espeically if she ca afford event tickets and is going on a vacation with OM.<P>By the way, I wonder how his family will react to their married son bringing another man's wife to meet them?????? NERVE!!! <P>Maybe instead of calling her stbx, at least to others outside of this forum, you could refer to her as your estranged wife. Also, about her telling the friends stuff about you not givig her the schedules - thin she was trying to build a little support for herself because she certainly has to look shallow to folks who know her?<P>She seems to have a lot of anger and hostility directed at you, too. Maybe you tw aren't as finished with eachother as you think - even though the divorce is rolling.....<P>Continuing to pray for you, Bob. Good night...<P>Desiree<P><P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Hi RMA,<P>She has convinced herself that she hasn't abandoned the kids, she keeps saying she is only 5 mins away.<P>As for the money, she told me om was paying for everything. I'm still not sure how he has all this money. My EW(estranged wife, hows that ) said when he first moved in with her he handed her $2000 in cash.<P>As for his family, his mother has been calling my EW all along. She likes her better than his w, my EW makes him so happy!<P>As far as her trying to win friends, she needs to, she works with a woman who is neighbors to our friends and she said she is the only one that talks to both of them. <P>My EW told her friend that she thought that I was dangerous because of my meltdown a couple weeks ago and the friend set her straight. She then told the friend that it sounded like she was choosing sides and if that was the case it was just going to be her and om against the world. I belive you commented on thsi before.<P>I think thr anger and hostility are because I just didn't role over and let her go. And then I fought her on getting the kids involved with om. Everything I've read or been told is to take it slow when introducing new partners because when they don't last, it give that kids a bad example.