FHO, You're right, he is releived that I still love him and that right now everything is going to be ok. He says that he feels terribly guilty; but it's a better kind of guilt now that it is out in the open. It was very hard for him to keep the secret. It was a feeling that had no potential for processing since it was a secret. He says now that I know, the guilt has been horrible, but it is "guilt with hope" knowing that our relationship can improve. I am more peaceful and realizing that this was less about the OW and more about the state of our relationship 4 years ago and now. Thank you for your support. I was having a heavy sad day and you lightened the load for me; I feel less sad and more hopeful once again!! Thanks, CSue

Wow, I am also impressed that your H surpised you with lunch. What a thoughtful and generous (emotionally)gift he gave you. This is a good motivator for me to get to work on ENs. I would like to get our relationship comfortable enough so that we're not so awkward around each other, and feel more open to give these kinds of "gifts" to each other. How blessed you are! CSue

CSue,<p>Glad to hear I could cheer you up a little. You post reminded me of how awkward my H and I felt around each other when we first started recovery. It was like we were never in tune emotionally -- when I was happy, he was sad and vice versa. Hang in there, things get better. <p>I strongly recommend doing the ENs questionaire. That really gave me insight into what his needs are and HOW I could meet them -- I think the how is a key. Because men and women are different (I know, not very PC to say that). If I had to guess how to meet his needs, I would try to meet them in a way that would be meaningful to me -- you know the golden rule. But the real rule for MB is to do unto others and they want (not as you would want). My H and I are now thinking about refilling out the EN questionaire -- because in the last 7 weeks things have changed already. My H has also suggested we continue to complete the questionaire every so often so we can really stay in tune with each other. It is amazing, but he really believes in this. He says it works -- the more I meet his ENs, the harder he trys to meet mine, which in turn encourages me to meet his. Now that is a vicious circle that I want to be in.<p>Keep up the good work. It's great that your H really wants to work things out. You will prove that together you can build an even stronger, more wonderful marriage than you ever imagined.<p>FHO

Hello CSue,<p>Let me start off by telling you who I am. I am FormerHopelessOne's WS. We have been threw a lot the last few months (hell to be exact) and I just wanted to tell you not to give up HOPE. I may not know what is going on in your WS's mind exactly, but I do know that if you want to work this out you need to show him you love him. That will remind him why he loves you. Meet his EN and you will be surprised what it will do. It's kind of screwed up I know, your the one hurt your the one being betrayed, he doesn't deserve your love. I can only imagine what my W was/is going threw while I was in my FOG (I try everyday). I do know one thing, if she decided to be angry and vengeful towards me that we would still be apart, maybe even forever (thank goodness we are not). It's hard to explain and even harder to admit but it is the truth. My W followed planA (and some of planB) to the letter and it cleared the fog. I have no excuses for what I did to her, I am grateful she had an excuse not to give up, she loved me! Our life together is getting better everyday. The roller coaster up and downs seem to be slowly flattening out. I am not saying we don't still have bad moments, we do, but the good out number the bad by FAR! We made it threw some rough times. I honestly believe this is because our EN are being met. I can't explain it but it's like this fire in my heart and head is being fed with her love for me. Almost like I hunger for nothing emotionally because I have been fed. This makes me want to meet her needs even more. One thing I have learned in the past weeks of recovery is that I can not heal my wife. She has to heal herself, only time and love can do this. I can't speed it up but I know I sure can slow it down (LB will do that). Don't give up HOPE. Your H told you about the affair I wish I did that.....

Wow!! You guys are amazing!! Bless you for your messages. I was going to tell FHO that my H called me today and surprised me with taking me out to lunch! It was his idea (I was still trying to figure out how to tell him about your wonderful experience yesterday) and he surprised me on his own; which has unbelievable value. I have learned so much from you both. Your wisdom in spite of being so new to MB! Ok so here's what has been puzzeling me today. Acceptance....How do I accept the "unacceptable"? I wonder if I need to accept that this has happened before I move on, or does it come with time if I work on myself and meeting my H's ENs? Let me know your thoughts if you don't mind. God Bless you for sharing all of this with me. I have felt so good, so strong today, even before the surprise luncheon. Another issue for me to deal with that I suspect is my responsibility are what I've seen posted called "triggers". The unconscious things that my H says that "sets me off". Something he said last night triggered something and I went ballistic...by the time I was done I don't even remember what he said that set me off. I feel I need to know, remember what the triggers are so that I can diffuse them before I lose control and say such terrible things. Thanks, CSue

Lovehermadly, your post is going to inspire many other WS and BS as well. You've given us all a gift today. You give us reason to "believe". Thank you, CSue

CSue,<p>Just wanted to do a quick post to let you know that I am still checking on you and thinking about you. I know you and your H can recover.<p>I will come back either later tonight or tomorrow to answer your questions. Quick answer, without much thought, -- I still struggle with accepting the unacceptable. That is not easy, I am still dealing with those feelings, that is why I think recover takes so long. Will write more later.<p>Yes, it is very important to understand the triggers. I have some funny stories about triggers -- they are lurking everywhere. Actually, right now I am having a trigger because I am working on a paper that is due tomorrow (nothing like waiting till the last minute) and the day before D-day #3 I was working on my last paper and in between it was checking on my WH and looking at the messages he was sending to the OW. I will write more about them later. I think it is really important for your H to understand about triggers and to try to work with you on them . The best help he can give is to be loving and supportive of you during those times and work with you to build new memories that will overwrite the triggers -- give you examples later.<p>Have to go finish the paper. I don't know if I said it before but I started law school in Jan and it has been a real challenge.<p>Keep up the positive energy. It sounds like your H is really trying -- that is half the battle. I can't imagine what is must be like for some MBers whose WS doesn't want to try to save the M. Your H did a great thing by taking you to lunch. Make sure you let him know how much you appreciate it. Remember, positive reinforcement works wonders.<p>FHO

CSue,<p>Just wanted to write a little more about acceptance and triggers. I think the acceptance will come over time. I know that I do not think about the A every second of every day like I used to. In the article Shattered Vows it talks about recovery from an A being like recovering from a very traumatic event, perhaps a tornado. You review the details and ask questions to understand. I would think over time the intense memories will fade, although you will always remember the experience. On a positive note, each experience and how we react to it shapes us as people. You have responded to this experience in a positive, mature way. You will be a better, stronger person because of this.<p>Ok, regarding triggers. There a tons of them out there -- you can barely watch TV or a movie without the subject coming up. And those are the obvious triggers. There are others that will be unique to your situation -- like my writing the paper. Also, as you learn more about the A, you will have other triggers. Last time I got my haircut, I had a trigger, because right before D-day #1, I went to a day spa (present from my H for anniversary, before the A started, I believe) and was feeling great when I got done. My H met me afterward and we went out to dinner -- I was in a really good mood -- who wouldn't be after massage, facial, manicure, pedicure, haircut. My H was very distant and rejected me. After D-day I knew why. So, the next time I went to the spa to get a haircut, when I was sitting there, all the memories returned. <p>It is hard. You never know what will be a trigger. Yes, I think you should keep some sort of journal and write down triggers, so you can recognize them. You should also tell you H about triggers. Do it in a non-LB way. Explain that when you have triggers, you are not blaming him or wanting him to feel guilty, but that these are part of the recovery process and you will have them for awhile. You need him to be strong and supportive when you have them. For instance, after the haircut trigger, when I got home my H could see I was kind of down. He asked what was wrong. Now, I had a choice, I could tell him what was wrong or say that nothing was really wrong. I chose to tell him the truth. At first I think he was a little upset, and felt guilty, but then he was wonderful. He again apologized for all the pain he caused (I think that is important for the WS to acknowled the pain they have caused), he hugged me and told me he loved me and that he would be there for me. We talked about my feelings a little -- he mostly listened (this is important too, for them just to listen sometimes without trying to justify or "fix" the problem). Well, long story short we ended up turning a trigger into a very positive experience (let to SF [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] ) and my H said that now I had a happy memory to think about next time I got my haircut. I agree with him that next time I get a haircut, I might still think about the A, but now I can also think about how understanding and wonderful my H was when I told him how I was feeling.<p>One other suggestion for you -- there was a post on this site about what could the WS have done after the A to help you the BS. I though it was really good and expressed a lot of the things I was feeling. I printed it out and gave it to my H. Now, you have to make sure you do this in a positive, non-LB manner. Just explain that you wanted to share this with him and that it explains some of your feelings. It also gave my H some ideas on my feelings and things he could do to help me deal with them. Since, then I have shared other posts with him that have struck me as being very similiar to my own feelings. I think this helps in two ways: 1) sometimes it is hard to put our own feelings into words, so when someone else has done this, it is helpful, and 2) your H might give more validity to the feelings when he sees that these are very common and what most BSs feel -- not that he doesn't believe your feelings -- just that he will see that these feelings are pretty universal and there is a roadmap to recovery by following those that have come before us.<p>Hope this helps. You're doing great so far.<p>FHO

FHO, Thank you for checking up on me. I appreciate hearing how you are dealing with acceptance. What you say makes sense to me. Also the triggers. So funny how they crop up. I admire that you had the guts to tell your H when the haircut trigger happened. I absolutely love how you overcame the trigger. What a great way to put triggers to rest!! I have had a roller coaster weekend. You see I decided that I am ready to begin the recovery process. I worked Saturday on my en's; which was tough for me and took alot of introspection because I haven't spent much time ever thinking about what I need anyway; and now after d-day I have spent most of my time working on plan A and H's needs. We had a date Sunday night; we planned dinner, movie and after movie time to discuss both of our en's. You should have seen what I took. Spiral notebook, 2 journals (because I had finished 1 I started; but have had so much to journal I needed a new book); all of Dr. Harley's books and 3 Phil McGraw books - Relationship Rescue, RR-workbook and his latest bestseller. And last but not least I make scrapbook photo albums and took my 1998 book so that we could go through it because my H has had a hard time pinning down when in 1998 he actually had the A. I need to know what was going on with me during the time before the A, during the A, and after the A. I also wanted him to reflect on that year as well to see what answers we could find. What actually happened is that the place we went to dinner also has a comfy chair seating section where you can sit and have a drink. So after dinner we moved over there; figuring we may as well start on communicating our en's. He had nothing with him. Not even paper and pencil. He asked - "Shouldn't we write this stuff down?" I didn't drag my big book bag in the restaurant for dinner - didn't want to scare him [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] so I told him I would be right back. He did look a little intimidated when I showed back up with this huge heavy bag. I also forgot to mention that we saw at least 7 people we knew in the restaurant; so both of us felt a little bit exposed to be taking all of this stuff out. He asked me for my en's; but I said that I would rather start with his en's since that is what started us down this past; me not meeting his en's. With that I took out paper and pen and took notes as he talked. I thought this would show caring and interest. I did a pretty good job up until the end; when it became insulting to hear what he was saying. My anger was obvious so we took a time-out from that discussion. I suggested that we work out a calendar to insure that we got our 15 hours per week in for "together time". This was a good exercise because it was something we could do together and agree on. After that I asked him if he was up to looking at the photo album to help his memory of the A; start time stop time and anything in between. Just looking at that album my feelings were; what a great year it was; and how on earth could he justify an A? After finishing the review he told me when the A started. It was in July 1998. He was unclear when it ended however. He has said in the past that he thought it lasted 4 months. Which would take us past his birthday, my birthday, and our anniversary. That hurt. Also it overlapped the time that he suggested marriage counseling, at which time he failed to mention the A. I point-blank asked him at the time he suggested the counseling if there was anything like an A going on. He said no. That's been part of the problem. He was such a good liar, and lied for so long. He got real quiet after reviewing the photo album; and said that it was time to go. We had been at the restaurant for 4 hours. He walked out and left me there; he went for a walk outside. He had nothing to say; went straight to bed no words spoken. Caused me major anxiety. He said this morning that he was overcome by depression having looked at that album; and just couldn't function any better than he did. Oh...one thing that he said while we were at the restaurant blew me away. He said that I had taken the first action of hurting our marriage by building walls and shutting him out. He said that is what caused him to have the A, and that wall building was "worse" than him having the A. Sheesh! I'm going to post this and move on, in case my computer freezes of something, so I don't chance losing all of this!! BRB! CSue

Back to the saga...I reminded him that the trouble began when he hired a management consultant to find out why he was having such a high staff turnover. I was working with him on a part-time basis having stopped my career when we had our children. Anyway the consultant's recommendation after lengthy analysis was to hire me has his office manager!! It was a surprise to both of us and setup this terrible scenerio. You see we bumped heads from that point forward at work. We couldn't keep our conflicts at work so they followed us home. It wasn't until we were in marriage counseling in Oct 1998 with our counselor suggesting that I quit working there; that my H and I decided that we couldn't work together and live together too. What a relief to quit!! With further counseling that ended a couple of years ago the last 4 years have been great. We both agree they have been great. In fact my H said the fact they have been great lead him to believe that he could now tell me about the A and "everything would be ok"! It's just that he decided an A in 1998 was the way to deal with our conflict. So here we are. I had such anxiety today after last night that I had to go to his work to see him. He explained again how he was overcome and that I have to stop making inflamatory statements. I'm not sure which statements he's talking about however. We agreed once again that we need to do counseling again. I came home and called MB to see about phone counseling and have a time setup for May. I now need to step back and see where to go from here. As part of our 15 hours we will be spending some time together tonight; however I think it should be low key, not intense; so that's what I will try. Thanks for listening...any thoughts from you or others would be appreciated. My H and I have not wanted to tell anyone we know still. MB and all of you is what I have to try to cope! Thanks, CSue

Csue,<p>Read you last post and one thing you wrote struck me. You wrote <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Oh...one thing that he said while we were at the restaurant blew me away. He said that I had taken the first action of hurting our marriage by building walls and shutting him out. He said that is what caused him to have the A, and that wall building was "worse" than him having the A. <hr></blockquote><p>First, an editorial comment. Nothing "caused" him to have an A, but something made him vulnerable to the A. A slight but important distinction that you both need to remember. The A was/is not your fault. The condition of the marrriage you DID have a roll in. <p>The wall building was worse than him having an A????<p>
Not likely, but if you stop and think about it you can gain some information. If you built walls he probably felt ignored. Now is being ignored worse than being hurt??? You tell me.<p>I guess the point here is that one cannot really compare these things, but I wouldn't doubt from where he sits, that he feels this way. From where you sit, you feel the opposite. <p>However, I do note that you felt bad about being rejected have his gift of the spa and you remembered it as well.<p>At your H's age (I am a bit older) men often need more reassurance than is apparently thought. For one reason women "expect" attention from men, hence the term "high maintinence". Not that you are. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] But, one never refers to men in that term, yet there is no reason to expect that men aren't just as "high maintinence" emotionally. We hide it. Hence the EN questionaire and the subsequent discussion.<p>I would guess that your H isn't as confident of himself as you may think he is. I would guess the fact that you "love" him enough to not throw him out after his A is actually a big surprise to him.<p>Interesting isn't it? You are the betrayed spouse, but we are talking about HIS thinking and what HE needs. People don't usually have affairs unless there are issues. You seem to be finding out about his issues.<p>I kind of chuckled when reading of your preparations and books for the meeting and discussion. I'll bet it blew him away and the photo album was the final touch. I'll bet he felt like looking up to see the pond scum.<p>It seems to me you are doing fine for the time you have known. It also seems to me that both of you want this marriage to work, so the odds are high that it will work, probably better than ever. <p>You are doing well CSue. I think your H is as well. Give it time and realize that you two can take this terrible event and turn it into something really special for the rest of your lives. More than a few have said that the A was sort of a breakthrough in their marriage, but would have rather found another way to acheive the same thing.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

JL, I have been been rofl since reading your post! You are right of course; I did blow him away with all of my "prep". He told me finally this morning that he was overcome with remorse and guilt over the pain he has caused. (The photo album sent him over the edge.) You are also correct in finding clues based on what he said. I knew at the time of the A 4 years ago that he was struggling with walls I had built. To give a more accurace picture I have to say that I have had a 15+ year problem with major depression. I was on anti-d from the very beginning when they first came out. My mother spent her life with major depression so I guess you can say I've lived with it throughout my life. My H knew about the depression; I have been very open about it through dating etc. On & off medications throughout and building walls was the natural state for me at times more than others. It was a not so healthy way of dealing with life. I have come to realize that H & I started counseling at his suggestion at the point in his A when he realized that the A wasn't the answer to the problem of me building walls. He stopped the A approx 1 month after we began counseling. It was probably too much for him to deal with the A and still have the energy it took to work on our M. In counseling (I had my own individual counselor in addition to our marriage counselor)I came to realize that anti-d drugs didn't work for me because of the side effects that have to do with low sex drive. That was not what my M needed I can tell you that. We had gotten a puppy so that I would be motivated to take daily walks. During the past 4 years I finally feel like I have gotten a handle on my depression. I now walk daily (new addiction) 3 miles. If I miss even 1 day it's a problem for me mentally. I was relieved to look back and see through all the pain of learning about the A I just had 1 day that I couldn't even get out of bed to walk. I feel much better now. My H knowing that I have a good handle on the depression finally felt I was in a place to hear about the A. He just didn't know it would be as hard as it is since it ended almost 4 years ago. He still had contact with the OW; afterall they had this 20 year friendship; but he didn't see until reading SAA that "no contact" is critical. It's funny; I remember the last time I saw the OW. It was 5 months ago at a bookstore where we happened to be attending the same booksigning. I remember she turned and looked me in the eye. No words were exchanged because I was walking by focused on something else. Had I seen her again, I probably would have said Hi. I haven't run into her since; however the possibility exists because we seemed to cross paths every so often. Anyway sorry to go on about this; but I have really appreciated your insight and understanding. I have laughed all day after seeing your perspective. I don't really understand your comments on the spa. No spa in my life unfortunately! However I am seeing the benefit of taking better care of myself and being more balanced looking after my en's. I found myself in the rut of childcare,school,cubscouts and failed to be taking care of my H's needs (I thought I was) and not taking care of my en's. Now I am learning about my en's I find that there is more of me to give to my H and the boys! As you can see I am having a much better day. H woke up this morning and told me how he felt at the restaurant with all of my prep work. Which brings me back to a point you made to me many days ago. I think I have reached the place where I feel empathy for the pain my H is feeling. You said it would happen...I guess that's progress!! Bless you! CSue

CSue,<p>Don't worry about the spa comment. I was busy getting my wires crossed. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] It was FHO that made the comment about the spa and for some reason it stuck in my mind. What worries me is that I can remember that, but forget other things. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I don't care for these "senior moments" one bit. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I am glad you are doing better. Your extensive experience with depression suggests two things. One, you may really know the "reason" for your H's affair and the walls. Two, you should be able to recognize those symptoms in your H. It is not uncommon for the WS to go into depression from the guilt alone.<p>Hang in there CSue. It seems your marriage has survived quite a lot and is destined to survive this as well. As far as affairs go, you have the best of all possible worlds. A remorseful spouse, an affair that is long dead, and it seems a lot of internal strength. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>God Bless,<p>JL

CSue,<p>Hi, how are you doing? I'm glad you and your H are talking about things. Sorry, I didn't check yesterday. As soon as I read your post I thought (when your H left the restaurant), "Ah, CSue's H feels guilty and this is causing him anxient." That is because my H felt exactly the same way. Expecially in the beginning when we were having R conversations he couldn't handle much. Just be patient. Take a break -- both of you -- when things seem overwhelming.<p>Also, regarding the walls, my H said something similiar, he said I was neglecting him and being distant. In reflecting on that period of time, yes I was -- I was busy, trying to get into law school, traveling for work, etc. Whatever, I should have been more tuned into my M. But still the A is not my fault. I can accept that and so does my H now. The problems in our M were 50% my fault and I have a responsibility to fix my part if we want to have a better M. Regarding your H's comment about the walls being worse than an A -- just consider this for a moment (don't kill me for saying this) -- perhaps, for him, they were. After D-day #3, my H and I talked about things and I talked about my pain and he talked about his. When I heard about his, I thought, there is no way yours could be worse than mine -- you were unfaithful to me. But, when I took a step back and thought about it, I realized that perhaps my H's pain was worse than mine -- he built a fantasy life because of the problems in our M, he experienced severe depression and anxiety. Anyway, just something to consider. Bottom line is, it doesn't matter whose pain is worse -- it is a question that will never be answered. Just remember that the WS does also feel pain -- I believe most of them do feel such pain that the escape is the only solution they see. And after D-day, they now have to live with the guilt and their BS's pain (that they know they have inflicted). <p>Anyway, take things slowly. Yes, you absolutely need most of the 15 hours per week as fun time -- not time to talk R. The fun time is what builds up the LB. In SAA it talks about trying to incorporate several ENs into the time you spend together. You should look at both your H's & yours and see if there are things you can do together that will meet both of your needs -- i.e., dinner (conversation), movie (recreational companionship), come home and have SF, then cuddling (affection). See you have now probably met some of the top needs on each of your lists.<p>Sorry this is so long. Just trying to give you some suggestions -- take them for what they are worth. Remember, I am a newbie here as well, but it is amazing how similiar the stories are. Reading your posts is like looking into my very recent past.<p>Hang in there. That rollercoaster ride probably isn't over yet, but probably the biggest drops have been taken.<p>FHO

FHO, Hi! Thanks for your response. You are of course correct on several points. We planned that "date night" to have dinner, movie and afterwards discuss en's. I thought relaxed/low key. When we arrived for dinner, he suggested we just stay and do en's first; fun later. I thought I was "so together" with all of my prep etc! HA!! I was a little too together as you have probably read. In addition to what I posted before I also had him read in SAA the "no contact" letter so he would know what I expect him to do if/when the OW contacts him again. I also had him read in SAA how not to allow others to make a deposit into his emotional bank account. (I think forced reading assignments at the time were too much, along with everything else I pounced on him with). Those were the 2 issues causing me the most anxiety at the time, so I wanted to cover them. <p>Part of this is the increased intensity level I feel is because having not met his needs/paid attention to him in the past which is why he is saying the A happened, I wanted to show him - I'M PAYING ATTENTION NOW AREN'T I???? Poor guy, JL said I would end up feeling sorry for him.<p>One thing not to be feeling sorry for him for is that the SF has been on-going practically non-stop since d-day. Reason being it comforts me safety/security needs. He is loving this and me too. So at least we have this going for us. And like both you and JL have mentioned I am in a very good position compared to many posters on this board. We are both interested in saving our M; we just have to find our way though the maze. I told H it feels like to me that I am in the middle of an enemy mine field; and I don't know where the mines are; but I can see the "Garden of Eden" at the end of the journey. Just have to navigate all the invisible mines to get to the other side. It isn't safe to be where I am and the reward at the end is Heaven, I just have to be brave enough to put 1 foot in front of the other and be smart enough to avoid the mines.<p>As part of our 15 hours I went to his work today because we scheculed "have lunch together day". The person there who has always "adored" him was there of course; and I just felt that she was kind of "funny". This is where my worry comes from that there could be another d-day currently untold. So I came from a wonderful lunch with a gut full of anxiety. It doesn't seem timely to ask questions of my H about this. I had asked him about this several times when the A from 4 years ago came out; and he has answered NO.<p>My problem with that is trust. If he could have and hide an A for 4 years right under my nose, how do I know if he is telling the truth about this person. However I am hypersensitive probably and may be misreading this. My poor H, after all he has been through with me since d-day; I don't know if he would tell me about any other A's. After all he waited 4 years to tell me about this one. so I think for the time being I will step back and watch and consider. Hope your feeling better. Your H had posted that you were sick over the weekend. Plus Law School on top!! Thanks, for catching up with me. I really appreciate your input! CSue

CSue,<p>One thing to remember. If you want honesty reinforce it. In another words if he tells you something very painful to you, but honest. Thank him for telling you this. Then let it go. Later, you can come back to it. Often the best way is to start is to say something like: "You know what you told me yesterday? I have a few questions or points I need cleared up." Ask your questions or clarify your points and then be quiet about it.<p>Most people lie because they think it is easier and less pain. Honesty hurts, but not as much as the lies in the long run. So it is sort of a training thing. You need to train him, that as long as he is telling you the truth, no matter how much it hurts, you won't blow a gasket. You can tell him the information did hurt and you are dealing with it. Honesty goes both ways.<p>You and your H will do just fine CSue. Yup, there are landmines out there, but interestingly in this particular battle you can heal and recover from just about anything out their, if you want to. So be careful, but don't be afraid to advance on your garden OK?<p>God Bless,<p>JL

CSue, <p>Hi, hope things are going well -- they sound like it. The hardest thing in all this it to have patience. What you really feel like doing is to jump right in there an fix things, but it is not going to happen that way. It will take a lot of time. It helped me to think about when my H and I were first dating. Remember how that was for you and your H. You spent time together, you were usually on your best behavior (please, thank your, etc.), you listened to each other and were genuinely interested in discovering things about the other. It helped me to think about this time together as similiar to that. We are getting to know each other again. We are building the foundations for our future relationship.<p>Keep working on things. I would not worry about the other person at this point. If there was an A, you will find out at some point and even if you knew right now, you would still be at the same place in rebuilding your M. Just Learning has some great points about the honest communication. It is hard, but when you ask you H for honesty, you need to remember not to explode at him or react in a negative way. You need to become a safe person to tell the truth to. It is okay to express you honest feelings, but you need to do that in a non-LBing way -- no angry outbursts, disrespectful judgements, etc.<p>Glad the SF is great. Funny that after this type of revelation, the SF gets better. I felt the same way you did in that SF made me feel closer to my H. Remember that this is usually in most men's top 5 ENs. On the other hand it does not usually make it into women's top 5 ENs. Go figure, things are never easy. My H said something that really made me think regarding this -- he said that SF was his way of expressing and getting affection and admiration. Now, I of course do not feel that SF (while it is really great) is a way I get affection. For me affection is the little things my H does -- bring home flowers, stop and buy me my favorite candy on his way home, hold my hand when we walk down the street, opening the car door for me, taking my car out and filling it up with gas for me, cooking me dinner, giving me a back massage, etc, etc, etc. Totally different way than SF to meet me affection need (which, of course, is one of my top ENs -- as it is for most women). So, now I try to remember that that is how I make affection, admiration and SF LB$. I need to remember to meet his needs in the way that is meaningful to him -- that is how I make LB$. <p>Keep up the good work. When you are feeling scared, unsure, depressed, angry, etc. come here and post those emotions (especially if you cannot share these feelings with your H with LBing). Over time, you and your H will build up communication channels and you will be able to express those feelings openly (always without LBing -- this is hard, but it really works to foster communication).<p>Also, remember, everything I say is just my $ .02. Talk to you later.<p>FHO

FHO,<p>Just a comment about the sex thing from a guys point of view. I think men view sex in two ways. One, there is the strong drive and physical release. Sort of can be done with anyone. We compartmentalize it because it is ALWAYS with us. Studies show that healthy men think about sex every 10 seconds. I don't know about 10 seconds, but it is very OFTEN. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Second, it is our main why of attaching and being emotionally connected to a woman.<p>Men rarely let another person close to them. Men, don't hug each other, and really don't hug women either. We are very very aware of physical contact of any sort. I am a fairly large man 6'4" 250 pounds. Years ago I had my leg in a cast. Some friends thought it would be funny to paint it in bright colors, they did. I had to travel and was in a city on a busy sidewalk. Just standing waiting for some people, with this hugh ugly cast on. Not a single man made any contact with me. Four women walked straight into me. I wasn't all that nibble in dodging. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] But, this happened in only about 5-10 minutes.<p>Where is this going??<p>Well, men don't make contact with most people. <p>Now using the normal stereotypes, men want sex more often, coupled with the fact that women get pregnant. So for men it is expected to be normal, for women it is a special thing.<p>So, if you buy any of this logic, then I would like to suggest, that the act of being close [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] to a woman is a unique act of closeness for men, and the fact that a woman is normally considered more selective when "letting" a man that close, makes this something very special to a man. Not just the sex but the whole process, if you see what I mean?<p>Now, to go really out on a limb here, women "expect" men to want sex, and maybe they feel men are not be so selective. In that event, then sex may be good, but I think women don't view it as that special. Doing something men are thought not to do often is considered a show of affection. Physical contact in public (holding hands, etc), cooking, cleaning, etc. Those are special.<p>Now that I have done the usual stereotypes, it is clear that women often do think of it as special, especially in the case of an A. So my point of this, is that for men being that close to another human being is somewhat unique, while we are phyical in our outlook, we don't usually do physical contact unless it is in sports or combat. Women, would rather apply the since of appreciation and affection to something they find "unique". <p>This has gotten muddled due to several phone calls as I typed it. I guess my point is, that for both men and women it is special, but for men it is conidered both a physical necessity and unique.<p>The main point is that men don't understand why women don't view sex as showing affection, while considering something "silly" [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] like buying a card or flowers someone else has grown as showing affection. Women as you pointed out view it the opposite.<p>If you have followed all of this and it makes any sense, I congratulate you. I was tempted to just erase it, but thought what the heck, it will at least start a good discussion.<p>But, let me make one perhaps useful comment. That is why Harley focuses on meeting the spouses needs. They aren't the same as ours, and they aren't demonstrated in the same manner.<p>OK, phone rang again, I won't even proof read this mess.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Hey Just Learning,<p>Sorry that we are jumping in to CSue's post, but I understand exactly what you are saying and think you are saying the same thing I am, but maybe we are just not expressing ourselves that well.<p>I totally agree with you and had a moment of insight into the whole Harley thing when I realized that it was not for me to judge whether my H's need were the "right" needs. I just needed to know what they were and do my best to meet them. I guess that is what my long post was really about -- that sometimes we slip into a pattern of trying to meet ENs of our spouse by doing what we want our spouse to do for us. But, that does not work. If SF meets several of my spouse's needs that is great and I need to work hard and make sure I am meeting that need.<p>Anyway, I did understand where you are coming from and understand what you were saying. I think in the world of "political correctness" that we live in, it is not very PC to admit that men and women are different (anything a man can do, a women can do also -- women like SF just like men do, men should show emotions and be sensitive like women are, etc., etc.,). But my realization came when I realized it is okay for men and women to be different.<p>Don't want to keep rambling on here is CSue's post, but I do agree with everything you say. Thanks for the additional insight.<p>FHO

FHO,<p>At the risk of hijacking CSue's thread just a bit more. I want to say, you are absolutely right. You said it better than I did. But, maybe it is important for CSue to see this part of the thread as well. Hope so.<p>You know something though FHO. I think sometimes when we see our spouse really enjoy something, it often makes us enjoy it as well. THere is often a hugh reward for meeting our spouses needs and that is the joy of seeing them enjoy something.<p>There was a thread here a long time ago about... what else sex. A female poster asked "alright you guys what do you really like in the sex department?" or words to that effect. The answer was relatively consistent, that the spouse enjoy it. I would say the majority turn on for the men posting was that that their W's really enjoy it, even be a bit selfish about it. Yet, in most cases the men had the larger sex drive (need).<p>I think this is true in more than sex. It is sort of like throwing a good party. The hosts can only do so much, but it is the responsibilty of the the guests to really make a party a good one and enjoy themselves. When both do their job, the party is always a blast.<p>Kind of reminds one of a marriage doesn't it???<p>I am glad my non-PC approach didn't bother you. I live where everyone is so openminded most of their brains have fallen out. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] So, I worry about posting some things.<p>God Bless,<p>JL